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Joffrey's wedding gifts - What do they represent?


Seams

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On August 29, 2016 at 9:44 PM, Seams said:

Ser Kevan: a magnificent red leather jousting saddle;

If you look at pictures of jousting saddles, why Ser Kevan gave him this as a gift becomes obvious very quickly. 

 

A jousting saddle, unlike a riding saddle, is like a bucket seat. It has a tall back. This is meant to support the rider upon impact from the lance to shield in order that he doesn't fall off the back of the horse.

 

Ser Kevan is the best man in the world to give a king a saddle which is meant to keep the hero upright during the savage impact of a blow but isn't the offensive  (lance /Jamie) or defensive  (armor or Shield / Cercei) a or the means of convergence (the horse / tywin) or the hero (the knight Joffery) aspect of the joust but the support so that these other pieces can work without fear of falling backwards.

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I had forgotten about this, but it has to relate to this larger wedding gift puzzle:

Ser Ilyn's appointment had been a wedding gift from Robert Baratheon to the father of his bride, a sinecure to compensate Payne for the tongue he'd lost in the service of House Lannister. (AFfC, Jaime III)

There's a connection between swords and tongues, as shown in the scene where Brienne thinks that Biter's tongue is coming at her but it turns out to be Gendry's sword coming through the back of Biter's head and out of his mouth. If the suspicions are correct about the swords at the wedding (expressed by Byfort of Corfe and myself, above), this bit about Ser Ilyn's job as the King's Justice is an interesting twist. Maybe Joffrey's death is King Robert, reaching through the grave, to give a "gift" to Tywin by administering the King's Justice through Ser Ilyn.

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  • 2 months later...
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Robb Stark with Daeron I Targaryen. Daeron ascended to the throne at the age of fourteen and is famous for conquering Dorne, which he wrote about in his Conquest of Dorne. Robb was made King in the North as a teenager and he had notable success as a military leader.

 

Balon Greyjoy with Baelor I Targaryen, known as the Beloved and the Blessed. This match-up might not seem valid. I guess I'm persuaded by the theories in this forum that Balon's body has been used by the Faceless Men to create the character of the High Sparrow. So this is an ironic match, if correct: Baelor was truly devout, while Balon didn't even worship the Seven Gods.

 

Joffrey with King Aegon IV Targaryen. Known as Aegon the Unworthy he is considered to be one of the worst Targaryen kings. Joffrey would have been a bad king, most people agree.

 

Renly with Daeron II Targaryen. Daeron the Good. His bastard half-brother, Daemon Blackfyre, challenged his rule and the result was a terrible civil war, the Blackfyre Rebellion. The war was mostly won by his sons and his other half-brother,Brynden Rivers. Daeron died during the Great Spring Sickness in 209 AC.

 

Perhaps these represent Aegon. 

Daeron "The Younger" = Aegon "I'm the only dragon you need" Targaryen VI

Baelor the Blessed = Aegon winning over the faith.

Aegon the Unworthy = ??? Does he father a few bastards?  I dunno. 

Daeron the Good = Discovers his "bastard half-brother."  Maybe instead of going to civil war with Jon, he names him his heir?

The book is destroyed by Widow's Wail, so perhaps he is killed by it? 

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It seems like they're mostly threats of one kind or another

The threadbare cloak is a threat from Cersei to Margaery - the wedding cloak is a symbol of protection, and Cersei is giving a threadbare cloak to tell Margaery that Joffrey can't or won't protect her. Robert and Joanna are, of course, both dead, and Cersei is, of course, clueless, because I bet she thinks her gift is a clever threat but doesn't see that almost all the other gifts are also threats.

It's not outside the realm of possibility that all the gift-giving guests other than the Lannisters are in on Joffrey's assassination, as a bunch of them have been having secret meetings with the Tyrells and/or with Littlefinger. Several of the gifts seem to be connected to something each of the givers has lost because of the Lannisters, or which the Lannisters have promised but never delivered.

Maybe the green and scarlet bow are presumably the colors of the Red Flower Vale, which is the land the Lannisters keep promising to get back for Jalabhar Xho, but never do.

Maybe the riding boots are supple because they are used and broken-in. This could be a reference to the lost virginity of Lady Tanda's daughter Lollys Stokeworth, while she was under the protection of the Lannisters. Lollys was a virgin before she was raped during the riot at King's Landing (was she pulled off her horse?), and now she is pregnant.

I can think of two things for the silver spurs from Ser Addam Marbrand. One is that after Tywin Lannister fought as a knight in the War of the Ninepenny Kings, he was allowed to give his spurs to King Aerys as a symbol of his excellence on the campaign. Addam Marbrand is here being given the same honor. It's worth noting that, however, the Lannisters ended up betraying and killing King Aerys, sacking his city and ordering the murder of his family, so imitating Tywin's gift to Aerys might be a threat, similar to the boots or the bow.

it is also worth noting that the home of Ser Addam - Ashemark - was taken by Robb Stark during the war, and the Lannisters did not go save it. Presumably the spurs could be a symbol of what they didn't do - ride to go liberate Ashemark.

The silk tourney pavilion seems to symbolize the death of Renly, which isn't necessarily the Lannisters' fault, but is definitely a loss that could begun to be corrected if the Lannisters are dethroned.

The war galley seems like a more direct insult, from Paxter Redwyne, whose sons have been held hostage by the Lannisters to ensure his loyalty. The ship is named "King Joffrey's Valor" - so here Paxter is giving Joffrey a tiny version of it - perhaps his commentary on how grand King Joffrey's Valor really is.

Tyrion's book is a warning to Joffrey, because those four kings exist in two pairs - the first one provoked an unnecessary bloody conflict out of a sense of his own aggrandizement, and the second one ended up surrounded by enemies and having to clean up the mess (Daeron and Baelor with Dorne, and Aegor and Daeron with the Blackfyres). It's worth noting the gifts are from Joffrey and Sansa, and that the unnecessary bloody conflict Joffrey has provoked and needs to fix is with the Starks and the North.

The cup shows the traditional structure of power in the seven kingdoms, with the lion equal to all the other animals. There is no dragon on the cup. That has of course also been lost as the Lannisters have asserted authority over everybody else and disregarded tradition in a bunch of ways.

Calling a wedding gift "Widow's Wail" (shouted out from somebody in the crowd) is either a threat or a prediction of likely doom, as in order for the bride to become a widow the groom must die. Joffrey talking about how he will "make many a widow" is classic GRRM - oh, look, a character is totally missing the point!

But the sword from Tywin and the saddle from Kevan seem to be symbols of what those two men are and Joffrey is not. Unlike the others, they probably give the gifts in the spirit of creating in Joffrey what they want to see, but they still represent shortcomings or loss as a result of the current regime.

 

 

 

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A shorter version is that each gift represents something the giver wants, and either hopes to either get from Joffrey or kill him for not getting it.
 

Cersei - I want being queen back.

Jho -  I want the Red Flower Vale back.

Tanda - I want my daughter's virginity back.

Oberyn - I want Dorne back.

Marbrand - I want my lordship back. 

Rowan - I want Renly back.

Redwyne - I want my sons back.

Tyrell - I want the Great Houses back.

Tyrion/Sansa - We want peace back.

Kevan - I want respectable Lannisters back.

Tywin - I want effective Lannisters back.

"Widow's Wail" guy - I want Joffrey dead.

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The fact that Joffrey gets the same cloak to put over Margery that Robert put over Cersei could be a little bit of foreshadowing that Margery will kill Joffrey.

The other gifts are all lavish items that are not helpful or useful, with the exception of the sword.  They kind of represent Joffrey pretty well.  Shiny, but not good for much.

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18 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

Perhaps these represent Aegon. 

Daeron "The Younger" = Aegon "I'm the only dragon you need" Targaryen VI

Baelor the Blessed = Aegon winning over the faith.

Aegon the Unworthy = ??? Does he father a few bastards?  I dunno. 

Daeron the Good = Discovers his "bastard half-brother."  Maybe instead of going to civil war with Jon, he names him his heir?

The book is destroyed by Widow's Wail, so perhaps he is killed by it? 

Thanks for pulling up this old chestnut. Sometimes it's worth dusting off the old ones, isn't it?

I like the Aegon match-up. The book's title is Lives of Four Kings, though. Maybe that doesn't matter. I just liked the symmetry with the deaths of four kings as a way of interpreting it.

When you boil down the four kings to their essences, you do get one impetuous military man (who succeeds with help from his Hull / Velaryon cousin), one kinda nutty religious fanatic, one really bad king who had a lot of kids by many different women and one who is a cultured, scholarly, thoughtful guy with a questionable pedigree.

So far, we have young fAegon as a daring military leader (succeeding with the help of Jon Connington?). It seems like the other three aspects are all question marks at this point, as you point out.

4 hours ago, GyantSpyder said:

It seems like they're mostly threats of one kind or another

The threadbare cloak is a threat from Cersei to Margaery - the wedding cloak is a symbol of protection, and Cersei is giving a threadbare cloak to tell Margaery that Joffrey can't or won't protect her. Robert and Joanna are, of course, both dead, and Cersei is, of course, clueless, because I bet she thinks her gift is a clever threat but doesn't see that almost all the other gifts are also threats.

It's not outside the realm of possibility that all the gift-giving guests other than the Lannisters are in on Joffrey's assassination, as a bunch of them have been having secret meetings with the Tyrells and/or with Littlefinger. Several of the gifts seem to be connected to something each of the givers has lost because of the Lannisters, or which the Lannisters have promised but never delivered.

...

I like this "threats" theory, as well as the "desires" theory, too. Prince Doran does say that Quentyn went to Essos to bring back "our heart's desire." So maybe Oberyn had a similar mission.

I can't believe I didn't spot the significance of Cersei presenting the cloak which will be put on Margaery's shoulders. Especially with the dialogue about it being the same cloak Robert used to "take" her. Symbolically, Cersei wants the young queen to belong to Cersei. The cloak represents both protection and ownership, I think. Cersei later experiments with what it would feel like to be Robert when she's in bed with Taena Merryweather. Maybe this effort to take possession of Margaery is part of that same symbolism of trying to become king.

I have seen a lot of Murder on the Orient Express in Joffrey's death, too, so I'm really glad you also see it. Many people wanted him dead. If the poison didn't kill him, something else would have. And, as was mentioned up the thread, the German word "Gift" means "poison." Each of these gifts could represent a different kind of symbolic poison, which would bolster your threat theory. Very interesting.

3 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

The fact that Joffrey gets the same cloak to put over Margery that Robert put over Cersei could be a little bit of foreshadowing that Margery will kill Joffrey.

Also interesting. I thought it was significant that Robert was somehow convinced to use a Lannister cloak at his wedding, instead of a Baratheon one. Probably an important sign of how quickly the Lannisters became the ruling family, even while Robert was still alive.

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7 hours ago, GyantSpyder said:

A shorter version is that each gift represents something the giver wants, and either hopes to either get from Joffrey or kill him for not getting it.
 

Cersei - I want being queen back.

Jho -  I want the Red Flower Vale back.

Tanda - I want my daughter's virginity back.

Oberyn - I want Dorne back.

Marbrand - I want my lordship back. 

Rowan - I want Renly back.

Redwyne - I want my sons back.

Tyrell - I want the Great Houses back.

Tyrion/Sansa - We want peace back.

Kevan - I want respectable Lannisters back.

Tywin - I want effective Lannisters back.

"Widow's Wail" guy - I want Joffrey dead.

I really enjoyed your post speculating that the gifts are all disguised threats, which would relate to how the Lannisters either 'don't pay their debts' or cynically 'pay their debts,' thus not living up to their own credo in good faith!  

As @Seams has noted it's similar to Agatha Christie's 'Murder on the Orient Express' where the murderers jointly made up a conspiracy, effectively a '12-person jury and executioner' -- have you noticed how the gifts you listed add up to the number 12!   I also wonder if the number 12 bears some relation to the '12+1' configuration of the Last Hero and his dead companions.  In Joffrey's case, assuming Joffrey is an ironic inversion of the 'Last Hero' and a Bran counterpart, the 'one' dies while the 'companions' survive him.

I particularly love your interpretation of Widow's Wail.  As you note, Joffrey was indeed ironically responsible for setting a lot of people, even dogs, and finally Cersei -- the quintessential black widow -- to wailing at the Wedding Feast, in a grim perversion of the Lightbringer forging legend. In this respect, @Seams has previously interpreted the death scene at the purple wedding to represent a forging with multiple attendant smiths (a collective of twelve beating and bellowing, etc. while he changes color with the 'heat' treatment?) with Joff as the failed sword.

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On September 3, 2016 at 9:13 AM, Springwatch said:

I for one am enjoying the thread. I suspect the minor gifts are just a scrap of a hint about the future of the giver, so:

Cersei: the wife's cloak that he would drape over Margaery's shoulders. "It is the cloak I donned when Robert took me for his queen, the same cloak my mother Lady Joanna wore when wed to my lord father." Sansa thought it looked threadbare, if truth be told, but perhaps because it was so used.

Cloaks are for protection; the Lannisters have been protected by their powerful family, but that protection is looking threadbare.

Jalabhar Xho:a great bow of golden wood and quiver of long arrows fletched with green and scarlet feathers;

Jalabhar gives a weapon - he is still a fighter. (My interpretation: gold for glory, green for ambition, red for blood.)

Lady Tanda: a pair of supple riding boots;

Not so good; boots get walked on. Lady Tanda later dies following a riding accident.

Ser Kevan: a magnificent red leather jousting saddle;

Kevan is sort of a warrior, but this is not a weapon. Kevan's role is to support the family.

Prince Oberyn: a red gold brooch wrought in the shape of a scorpion;

As said by earlier posters: this is a direct threat.

Ser Addam Marbrand: silver spurs;

Spurs might represent knighthood, or impatience or even cruelty. (Silver is often associated with the power to harm.) Adam serves as commander of the city watch and appears competent.

Lord Mathis Rowan: a red silk tourney pavilion.

Represents the siege of Storm's End.

Lord Paxter Redwyne: a beautiful wooden model of the war galley of two hundred oars being built even now on the Arbor.

Admiral of the Fleet.

The major gifts - the book, the chalice and the sword - probably don't fit this pattern, but are definitely worth interpretation.

I like this the best but could you clarify Adaam Marbands possible motive? Sorry I couldn't catch what you meant towards the end. I just thought it was bc he seems to be westerlands top men silver Spurs seem right. But please clarify my apologies.

That Cersei and especially the kevan analysis was great I think, nice job(supporting the dynasty). 

Summer islanders can't sell their sacred wood they make their bows with. Did Joffrey get one?

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On 8/29/2016 at 9:44 PM, Seams said:

In ASoS (Sansa IV), eleven "groom gifts" are mentioned. These are given to Joffrey alone, separate from gifts given to Margaery:

Cersei: the wife's cloak that he would drape over Margaery's shoulders. "It is the cloak I donned when Robert took me for his queen, the same cloak my mother Lady Joanna wore when wed to my lord father." Sansa thought it looked threadbare, if truth be told, but perhaps because it was so used.

Jalabhar Xho:a great bow of golden wood and quiver of long arrows fletched with green and scarlet feathers;

Lady Tanda: a pair of supple riding boots;

Ser Kevan: a magnificent red leather jousting saddle;

Prince Oberyn: a red gold brooch wrought in the shape of a scorpion;

Ser Addam Marbrand: silver spurs;

Lord Mathis Rowan: a red silk tourney pavilion.

Lord Paxter Redwyne: a beautiful wooden model of the war galley of two hundred oars being built even now on the Arbor.

Tyrion and Sansa: a huge old book called Lives of Four Kings, bound in leather and gorgeously illuminated. Grand Maester Kaeth's history of the reigns of Daeron the Young Dragon, Baelor the Blessed, Aegon the Unworthy, and Daeron the Good.

 

Lord Mace Tyrell: a golden chalice three feet tall, with two ornate curved handles and seven faces glittering with gemstones. "Seven faces for Your Grace's seven kingdoms," the bride's father explained. He showed them how each face bore the sigil of one of the great houses: ruby lion, emerald rose, onyx stag, silver trout, blue jade falcon, opal sun, and pearl direwolf.

 

Lord Tywin: a longsword. Its scabbard was made of cherrywood, gold, and oiled red leather, studded with golden lions' heads. The lions had ruby eyes.

 

"A great sword must have a great name, my lords! What shall I call it?"

 

The guests were shouting out names for the new blade. Joff dimissed a dozen before he heard one he liked. "Widow's Wail!" he cried. "Yes! It shall make many a widow, too!"

Why are these eleven gifts listed? I assume each one carries some meaning.

Tyrion's Book

I have a guess about the Lives of the Four Kings book given by Tyrion and Sansa. I believe it represents foreshadowing but also some explanation about the kings who have recently died. The four kings discussed in the book are Daeron the Young Dragon, Baelor the Blessed, Aegon the Unworthy, and Daeron the Good. I think GRRM wants us to match up these four with Robb Stark, Balon Greyjoy and Renly Baratheon, as well as Joffrey who is about to become the fourth dead king out of the "War of the Five Kings" group. 

The matches aren't exact, of course; the threads I've explored that discuss repetition of history and myth seem to agree that there are echoes and inversions and reordering of details each time we see the wheel come around. I would match up the following "War of the Five Kings" leaders with the historical figures in Tyrion's book:

Robb Stark with Daeron I Targaryen. Daeron ascended to the throne at the age of fourteen and is famous for conquering Dorne, which he wrote about in his Conquest of Dorne. Robb was made King in the North as a teenager and he had notable success as a military leader.

Balon Greyjoy with Baelor I Targaryen, known as the Beloved and the Blessed. This match-up might not seem valid. I guess I'm persuaded by the theories in this forum that Balon's body has been used by the Faceless Men to create the character of the High Sparrow. So this is an ironic match, if correct: Baelor was truly devout, while Balon didn't even worship the Seven Gods.

Joffrey with King Aegon IV Targaryen. Known as Aegon the Unworthy he is considered to be one of the worst Targaryen kings. Joffrey would have been a bad king, most people agree.

Renly with Daeron II Targaryen. Daeron the Good. His bastard half-brother, Daemon Blackfyre, challenged his rule and the result was a terrible civil war, the Blackfyre Rebellion. The war was mostly won by his sons and his other half-brother, Brynden Rivers. Daeron died during the Great Spring Sickness in 209 AC.

The destruction of the book is significant, I think. We saw the Winterfell library burned before the attempt on Bran's life. We see this book destroyed before Joffrey's death. Roose Bolton also burns a book in a fire at Harrenhal, and he is the one who will kill Robb Stark at the Red Wedding.

Other gifts

The threadbare wife's cloak is part of the fabric and sewing motif that I love: the fabric of Westeros is worn out after two generations of Lannisters in powerful positions in King's Landing (Tywin as Hand and Cersei as Queen), but Cersei can't see it.

The riding boots could be interesting. I believe that Bran says skinchanging into Hodor is like slipping into an old pair of boots. Arya takes the nice boots that belong to Dareon the singer who deserts from the Night's Watch in Braavos. Eventually, she throws them in the canal with her other possessions.

Tyrion "gave" Bran a special saddle design. Is there a tie here to the saddle Ser Kevan Lannister gives to his grand-nephew?

The scorpion pin seems to imply a surprise attack by poison, to me. Can't imagine why Oberyn would think that was an appropriate gift for a Lannister.

I'd be curious to hear whether anyone can think of possible interpretations or connections for the other gifts, or more meaningful associations than the ones I have guessed at.

Which important wedding guests are not mentioned among the eleven gift-givers named in Sansa's POV? There must have been hundreds of wedding gifts, with a thousand guests expected for the wedding. The book says it is a custom from the Reach to give separate gifts to the bride and groom the morning before the wedding, so maybe most of the gifts came from Margaery's side of the family. Which makes it curious that Ser Garlan, Ser Loras and Lady Olenna aren't mentioned among the gift-givers. Maybe Sansa just gives us the highlights. Anyone included among the eleven who surprises you?

I am also curious which wedding guest suggested the name for Joffrey's sword. Anyone care to guess? For what it's worth, Widow's Wail is the name of a flower.

I have never tried to find a symbolism from each gift before, so I appreciate your attempt. I would say that Sansa just gives us the highlights, so I don't think we need to concern ourselves with whose gifts are not included (I would note the lack of Baratheon bannermen), but, as very close readers, we like to consider why the storyteller chose these highlights. 

I love what @GyantSpyderhad to say about the threadbare cloak and Cersei regarding Margaery. But I don't see foreshadowing in the gifts, although, the choice of Widow's Wail as the name for the sword is quite telling. They are all appropriate gifts from Robert's, now Joffrey's, courtiers and Lannister men. 

Relating the Lives of the Four Kings to Renly, Robb, Balon and Joffrey seems tenuous. Stannis in for Renly might fit better since Renly was dead by the time of the purple wedding, but I think that book was an object to help dramatize Tyrion’s peril and a device to introduce the Blackfyre. 

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On 8/29/2016 at 6:44 PM, Seams said:

Tyrion's Book

I have a guess about the Lives of the Four Kings book given by Tyrion and Sansa. I believe it represents foreshadowing but also some explanation about the kings who have recently died. The four kings discussed in the book are Daeron the Young Dragon, Baelor the Blessed, Aegon the Unworthy, and Daeron the Good. I think GRRM wants us to match up these four with Robb Stark, Balon Greyjoy and Renly Baratheon, as well as Joffrey who is about to become the fourth dead king out of the "War of the Five Kings" group. 

I think we should include what Maester Yendel says about this book in particular.

Quote

It has been written that while Daeron warred and Baelor prayed, Viserys ruled. For fourteen years he served as Hand to his nephews, and before them he served his brother, King Aegon III. It is said he was the shrewdest Hand since Septon Barth, though his good efforts were diminished in the reign of the Broken King, who lacked any desire to please his subjects or win their love. In his Lives of Four Kings, Grand Maester Kaeth seems to hold little opinion, good or bad, of Viserys...but there are those who say that, by rights, the book should be about five kings, Viserys included. And yet Viserys is passed over for a discussion of his son, Aegon the Unworthy, instead.

An effective Hand, son of a queen whose throne was stolen, had a dragon egg but it never hatched, married to a banker's daughter, rumored to have poisoned his crazy nephew, rumored to have been poisoned by his own son, and is largely overshadowed.

On 8/29/2016 at 6:44 PM, Seams said:

Ser Addam Marbrand: silver spurs;

My first inclination is the name Addam (with all its biblical allusions).

I like to connect this Addam to Addam Velaryon, rider of Seasmoke and who put out the flames of Sheepstealer with his own cloak, protecting his brother because of the Marbrand sigil of a burning tree and mar (as in sea) and then the burning tree is a brand which would connect to the Ironborn and carrying burning brands from their Drowned God. Which we can also connect the legend of House Velayron having a driftwood throne given to them through a compact with the Merling King. Also Addam Velaryon is agreed to be the son of the Seasnake, Corlys Velaryon, who united with Prince Daemon Targaryen to set Daemon up as King of the Stepstones and who was the City Watch Commander, who gave them the gold cloaks.

The silver spurs in conjunction with Widow's Wail for me brings up Ser Michael Manwoody, not having the spur and sword of knighthood on his effigy but having a harp. This is a very loaded connection since first; House Manwoody's seat is called Kingsgrave, and second; that king they boast about killing was a Gardener (and the Gardner kings are symbols of Green kings and so are Baratheons): and third; Kingsgrave is located in the Dornish Red Mountains (made red by the blood of Dornishman by Garth XI) and Adam is etymologically defined as red earth. 

On 8/29/2016 at 6:44 PM, Seams said:

Lord Mathis Rowan: a red silk tourney pavilion.

House Rowan and Rowan Gold-tree's allusions to Idunn, the goddess of eternal youthfulness. I haven't put it together yet but they are another one of those symbols of Immortality that are floating around in the novels. Especially if we take hair as heir, the gold tree as a family tree, and the apple as a seed (regardless if it was a red apple or a green apple).  

The Red Silk tourney pavilion while its an inversion of Renly's Emerald Pavilion alive with light, to me it reminds me of Belthasar Bolton's Pink Pavilion made from the flayed skins of Sistermen during the Rape of the Three Sisters.

On 8/29/2016 at 6:44 PM, Seams said:

ruby lion, emerald rose, onyx stag, silver trout, blue jade falcon, opal sun, and pearl direwolf.

The pearl direwolf to me reminds of the God-on-earth riding around in a palanquin made from a giant pearl, who was the son of the Lion of Night and the Maiden-made-of-light. 

However the colors of these sigils are truly odd.

Rubies are more often than not associated with Targaryens (which as I interpreted as pointing to Joffrey as being a product of incest) and Melisandre, which she uses for magic. So my question why isn't it a gold lion? And I know it can't be just the merging of banner colors because then the Stag should be gold as well. 

Onyx Stag - a clawed/thorn (as Onyx is Latin for claw or nail) stag?

Blue jade falcon - why isn't the falcon a sapphire? While jade was a symbol of immortality, blue jade was strictly the realm of the aquatic and serpents. Opals and pearls are also aquatic. 

And if Opals were considered good luck during the middle ages, why is it used here to point at the Martells'? 

On 9/3/2016 at 2:10 PM, Seams said:

I'm thinking we are probably meant to compare Joffrey's gifts to Dany's wedding gifts.

I love this. And we need to remember that Drogo also gives Dany the pelt of a White Lion later on in their marriage. And a skinned lion is bloody red.

On 9/4/2016 at 2:11 PM, YOVMO said:

In Macbeth

In Act III, scene ii of Macbeth, Macbeth says "O full of scorpions is my mind... thou knowst that Banquo and his Fleance lives."

This and the short examination seems to relate to Cersei, plotting the downfall of everyone, unhappy with her amount of power. The only thing she lacks is the remorse for her actions. I wonder if we will see a Cersei regretting everything in the net two books. 

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On 11/29/2016 at 2:41 PM, Seams said:

I like the Aegon match-up. The book's title is Lives of Four Kings, though. Maybe that doesn't matter. I just liked the symmetry with the deaths of four kings as a way of interpreting it.

 

When you boil down the four kings to their essences, you do get one impetuous military man (who succeeds with help from his Hull / Velaryon cousin), one kinda nutty religious fanatic, one really bad king who had a lot of kids by many different women and one who is a cultured, scholarly, thoughtful guy with a questionable pedigree.

 

I was considering Aegon being the "Four Kings" and each "king" representing a significant change in his (perhaps short) reign.  First, his decision to go to Westeros (Daeron I), then he wins over the faith (Baelor), etc.  I forgot to mention this, but it is stated that there are only four copies of the "Four Kings" written in the author's own hand.  Joffrey specifically mention "now there's only three" after destroying his own copy.  Aegon is a fourth head (he or someone else out there being a spare), but he will ultimately die, leaving the bare minimum of three.  I think that with the book being destroyed by Widow's Wail, Aegon will likely die by it as well. 

The four kings representing current, alive rulers is also something I've considered though.  If so, Aegon is probably Daeron I; Stannis, Baelor; Joffrey (?), Aegon IV; and Jon, Daeron II.

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On 11/28/2016 at 5:50 PM, Isobel Harper said:

 

Perhaps these represent Aegon. 

Daeron "The Younger" = Aegon "I'm the only dragon you need" Targaryen VI

Baelor the Blessed = Aegon winning over the faith.

Aegon the Unworthy = ??? Does he father a few bastards?  I dunno. 

Daeron the Good = Discovers his "bastard half-brother."  Maybe instead of going to civil war with Jon, he names him his heir?

The book is destroyed by Widow's Wail, so perhaps he is killed by it? 

I like how you've applied the aspects of the different kings to Aegon.  It makes sense since Varys and Illyrio are grooming Aegon to have the best traits (or at least the traits people liked best) from previous kings. I wonder if not only has Varys read the book but also whether the he was the one who procured it for Tyrion to give to Joffrey.  I'm assuming Tyrion didn't have it with him when he came to King's Landing, and he still using Varys as a go between during ASOS.  Indirectly giving something symbolizing Aegon as one of Joffrey's presents seems so Varys and would go along with idea the gifts represent the givers' desires.   

About Aegon fathering bastards and/or legitimate children, I've thought about it and think it's possible, especially as I don't think he is going to be celibate during his remaining lifespan.  I've also considered the idea Aegon would discover R + L = J and name him his heir.  I don't expect Aegon and Jon to have any on-page interaction, but I do think it's possible that Aegon would R + L = J and have a positive reaction to it (while Varys and Illyrio would be horrified).  Admittedly one of the reasons I like the idea of Aegon naming Jon his heir is because the humor of both Robb and Aegon thinking Jon is their brother and trying to him name an heir to stuff he is (based on certain points of view) is already entitled to or at least the heir to.  Widow's Wail could symbolize Dragon.  Dany is a widow and likely to be widowed again.  Dragons have been compared to swords.  Widow's Wail has Targaryen colors and symbols, and it's likely that Dany is going to defeat Aegon in the second Dance of the Dragons.  If he dies because a dragon roasts him that matches Rhaenyra's fate.  If he leaves behind heirs, that matches Rhaenyra even more.    An alternative could be that Widow Wail's could be used to represent Sansa because Widow's Wail is a Stark sword Tywin tried to but (IMHO) failed to repurpose as Lannister sword.  Likewise Sansa is a Stark that Tywin failed to make a Lannister.  While I know many scoff at the idea of Aegon being a part of Sansa's story, I think it's possible.      

2 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

 

However the colors of these sigils are truly odd.

Rubies are more often than not associated with Targaryens (which as I interpreted as pointing to Joffrey as being a product of incest) and Melisandre, which she uses for magic. So my question why isn't it a gold lion? And I know it can't be just the merging of banner colors because then the Stag should be gold as well. 

Onyx Stag - a clawed/thorn (as Onyx is Latin for claw or nail) stag?

Blue jade falcon - why isn't the falcon a sapphire? While jade was a symbol of immortality, blue jade was strictly the realm of the aquatic and serpents. Opals and pearls are also aquatic. 

And if Opals were considered good luck during the middle ages, why is it used here to point at the Martells'? 

Other posters on other threads noticed most of the sigil colors on the chalice are inverted, and it's usually bastards who adopt sigils that are inversions of their House's sigil.  Also a red lion is the sigil of the Reynes.  Did Olenna, who knows (or is at least certain of) Joffrey's true parentage and a key planner of the Purple Weeding, design and order the cup?  We know she conducts business with tradesmen because she keeps a chest of Gardner gold to pay tradesman with.

About the red silk pavilion Rowan gifts to Joffrey, it reminded me of the Lannister cloaks used to wrap Rhaenys and Aegon's bodies.  It just seems so fitting that Rowan, who is still angry about Rhaenys and Aegon's murders,  gives Tywin's about to be murdered grandson's a gift that is the same (or at least) similar color and can also be used to cover or encase a person.   

2 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

 

My apologies for leaving this quote box in.  I was initially going to quote something from this post but then realized it was a better fit to include it with the discussion of the previous post.   

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10 hours ago, Harlaw's Book the Sequel said:

Other posters on other threads noticed most of the sigil colors on the chalice are inverted, and it's usually bastards who adopt sigils that are inversions of their House's sigil. Also a red lion is the sigil of the Reynes.  Did Olenna, who knows (or is at least certain of) Joffrey's true parentage and a key planner of the Purple Weeding, design and order the cup? 

Yes that is a good interpretation for the inversion of some of the colors but not all because then House Baratheon would be gold which can be easily explained as not wanting to offer insult to the King's house by calling him out as a bastard on his drinking cup but House Arryn and House Tully would be inverted as well but they aren't (and House Tully is attained and deposed as Lords Paramount like House Stark) and what about the opal if GRRM wanted to specify House Martell wouldn't he say Fire Opal instead of just opal which is different and GRRM has used the designation of fire opal exclusively with Dany and not anywhere else.   

And the person that started the enmity between House Reyne and House Lannister was Ellyn Reyne and the original person she had issues with was Jeyne Marbrand (Tywin's mother and it was said that she never forgave Ellyn for trying to seduce Tytos.)

The gaudiness of the cup doesn't seem like Olenna's style. I have a suspicion that this cup was Mace's idea but for Renly. 

11 hours ago, Harlaw's Book the Sequel said:

About the red silk pavilion Rowan gifts to Joffrey, it reminded me of the Lannister cloaks used to wrap Rhaenys and Aegon's bodies.  It just seems so fitting that Rowan, who is still angry about Rhaenys and Aegon's murders,  gives Tywin's about to be murdered grandson's a gift that is the same (or at least) similar color and can also be used to cover or encase a person.

I don't remember him being angry at the deaths of the children. Could you show me where he displays that? The red pavilion would be more fitting if it came from Oberyn but he gave Joffrey the scorpion. 

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I don't remember him being angry at the deaths of the children. Could you show me where he displays that? The red pavilion would be more fitting if it came from Oberyn but he gave Joffrey the scorpion. 

Tyrion III in ASOS:  (A Search of Ice and Fire)

Quote
"Prince Doran comes at my son's invitation," Lord Tywin said calmly, "not only to join in our celebration, but to claim his seat on this council, and the justice Robert denied him for the murder of his sister Elia and her children."
Tyrion watched the faces of the Lords Tyrell, Redwyne, and Rowan, wondering if any of the three would be bold enough to say, "But Lord Tywin, wasn't it you who presented the bodies to Robert, all wrapped up in Lannister cloaks?" None of them did, but it was there on their faces all the same. Redwyne does not give a fig, he thought, but Rowan looks fit to gag.

It's generally agreed, I think, that Mathis Rowan was angry about the Targaryen children, suggesting that Ned's attitude is not as unusual or uncommon as we might think.

Edit: and I'm pretty sure that's why many people assume Jon Connington's "friends in the Reach" might include Rowan.

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8 hours ago, velo-knight said:

Tyrion III in ASOS:  (A Search of Ice and Fire)

It's generally agreed, I think, that Mathis Rowan was angry about the Targaryen children, suggesting that Ned's attitude is not as unusual or uncommon as we might think.

Edit: and I'm pretty sure that's why many people assume Jon Connington's "friends in the Reach" might include Rowan.

But see, that quote could be interpreted to suggest that he was simply shocked by Tywin's audacity rather than his man's atrocity. 

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3 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

But see, that quote could be interpreted to suggest that he was simply shocked by Tywin's audacity rather than his man's atrocity. 

I thought there was another quote in Kevan's epilogue, but after rereading it, I was wrong. It's possible there's some other oblique reference to Rowan being upset about the Targlings, but I can't find any sign one one.

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On ‎11‎/‎30‎/‎2016 at 8:26 PM, Pain killer Jane said:

The silver spurs in conjunction with Widow's Wail for me brings up Ser Michael Manwoody, not having the spur and sword of knighthood on his effigy but having a harp. This is a very loaded connection since first; House Manwoody's seat is called Kingsgrave, and second; that king they boast about killing was a Gardener (and the Gardner kings are symbols of Green kings and so are Baratheons): and third; Kingsgrave is located in the Dornish Red Mountains (made red by the blood of Dornishman by Garth XI) and Adam is etymologically defined as red earth.

In what way are the Baratheons "Green kings"?

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6 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

But see, that quote could be interpreted to suggest that he was simply shocked by Tywin's audacity rather than his man's atrocity. 

Probably both.  Anyone might be "shocked" at Tywin's audacity, but to look "fit to gag" implies disgust.  One wouldn't feel disgusted if they didn't think the atrocity terrible in the first place.

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