Joffrey's wedding gifts - What do they represent?

[velo-knight]

1 hour ago, Raisin(g) Bran 2 Greenseer said:

In what way are the Baratheons "Green kings"?

There was a theory floating around a while back that in certain contexts, green equated falsehood or unworthiness (I think stemming mostly, but not exclusively, from the "Greens" in the Dance of the Dragons). If you're someone who doesn't like the Baratheon kings all that much (or just thinks that they will be, in a meta-narrative sense, false) and you think that GRRM felt the same way about Aegon II, you'd see the Baratheons as Green Kings.

This sort of gets muddled by the First Men / COTF associations with green men / dreams / etc., so I'm not 100% sold on this symbolism. Long story short, green can equal falsity / envy / unworthiness, and the Baratheons will probably end the series as failed usurpers.

50 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

Probably both.  Anyone might be "shocked" at Tywin's audacity, but to look "fit to gag" implies disgust.  One wouldn't feel disgusted if they didn't think the atrocity terrible in the first place.

Good point.

[Isobel Harper]

2 hours ago, Raisin(g) Bran 2 Greenseer said:

In what way are the Baratheons "Green kings"?

I believe Pain Killer Jane was also referring to a connection between greenseers and Baratheons as "antler men."  The greenseers on the Isle of Faces are said to wear some sort of ritualistic antlers on their heads and Baratheons typically wear antlers on there helms.  

[Raisin' Bran]

58 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

I believe Pain Killer Jane was also referring to a connection between greenseers and Baratheons as "antler men."  The greenseers on the Isle of Faces are said to wear some sort of ritualistic antlers on their heads and Baratheons typically wear antlers on there helms.  

 

1 hour ago, velo-knight said:

There was a theory floating around a while back that in certain contexts, green equated falsehood or unworthiness (I think stemming mostly, but not exclusively, from the "Greens" in the Dance of the Dragons). If you're someone who doesn't like the Baratheon kings all that much (or just thinks that they will be, in a meta-narrative sense, false) and you think that GRRM felt the same way about Aegon II, you'd see the Baratheons as Green Kings.

This sort of gets muddled by the First Men / COTF associations with green men / dreams / etc., so I'm not 100% sold on this symbolism. Long story short, green can equal falsity / envy / unworthiness, and the Baratheons will probably end the series as failed usurpers.

Good point.

Thank you both. guess I may need to research that a bit as the theory seems a bit out there and perhaps reading a little more into the theory may make it seem more feasible.

[Pain killer Jane]

4 hours ago, Raisin(g) Bran 2 Greenseer said:

In what way are the Baratheons "Green kings"?

The antler helm, stag sigil, Robert talking about the beauty of summer down in the crypts; Renly and his green armor, antler helm. This was inherent from the Durrandons. The Durrandons' may have been Storm Kings by name but they are horned lords. 

[Pain killer Jane]

2 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

I believe Pain Killer Jane was also referring to a connection between greenseers and Baratheons as "antler men."  The greenseers on the Isle of Faces are said to wear some sort of ritualistic antlers on their heads and Baratheons typically wear antlers on there helms.  

Yes, I was. 

1 hour ago, Raisin(g) Bran 2 Greenseer said:

 

Thank you both. guess I may need to research that a bit as the theory seems a bit out there and perhaps reading a little more into the theory may make it seem more feasible.

Lucifer means Lightbringer's podcast on Green Zombies is a good place for info on the symbolism of horned lords/fertility/nature deities and the connection with the Baratheons. 

[Pain killer Jane]

3 hours ago, velo-knight said:

There was a theory floating around a while back that in certain contexts, green equated falsehood or unworthiness (I think stemming mostly, but not exclusively, from the "Greens" in the Dance of the Dragons). If you're someone who doesn't like the Baratheon kings all that much (or just thinks that they will be, in a meta-narrative sense, false) and you think that GRRM felt the same way about Aegon II, you'd see the Baratheons as Green Kings.

This sort of gets muddled by the First Men / COTF associations with green men / dreams / etc., so I'm not 100% sold on this symbolism. Long story short, green can equal falsity / envy / unworthiness, and the Baratheons will probably end the series as failed usurpers.

I haven't encountered this theory before could you point me in the direction of this? 

[velo-knight]

13 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

I haven't encountered this theory before could you point me in the direction of this? 

Oh, god, I can't even remember if it was just a thread or an argument within a thread. I'll look, but it might take some time while digging.

I remember the gist, though - basically an analysis that in a southern / Andal context, green was often associated with lies, envy, and in particular with usurpers. Obviously if you think Aegon II was illegitimate (and most of us as modern readers hopefully default to cognatic succession in our minds), the Green and Black symbolism is strong. If you like the Blackfyres, the symbolism is obviously even stronger, though I suppose each side has black in it.

Add in the Baratheon's summer imagery and some debates about food and heraldry. There might have been some vague tie-in to the "Arbor gold = lies" idea. I'm annoyed at myself - I can remember the arguments for and against, but don't have a clue what the thread was called or originally about. I'll edit this if I find it.

[Pain killer Jane]

4 minutes ago, velo-knight said:

Oh, god, I can't even remember if it was just a thread or an argument within a thread. I'll look, but it might take some time while digging.

I remember the gist, though - basically an analysis that in a southern / Andal context, green was often associated with lies, envy, and in particular with usurpers. Obviously if you think Aegon II was illegitimate (and most of us as modern readers hopefully default to cognatic succession in our minds), the Green and Black symbolism is strong. If you like the Blackfyres, the symbolism is obviously even stronger, though I suppose each side has black in it.

Add in the Baratheon's summer imagery and some debates about food and heraldry. There might have been some vague tie-in to the "Arbor gold = lies" idea. I'm annoyed at myself - I can remember the arguments for and against, but don't have a clue what the thread was called or originally about. I'll edit this if I find it.

Thank You. I appreciate it. It does sound interesting especially with the seemingly random contextual support. Arbor gold always reminds of the Greatjon saying that Rob was so green he must piss grass. But that is neither here nor there. Anyway thank you for searching for me. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

25 minutes ago, velo-knight said:

Oh, god, I can't even remember if it was just a thread or an argument within a thread. I'll look, but it might take some time while digging.

I remember the gist, though - basically an analysis that in a southern / Andal context, green was often associated with lies, envy, and in particular with usurpers. Obviously if you think Aegon II was illegitimate (and most of us as modern readers hopefully default to cognatic succession in our minds), the Green and Black symbolism is strong. If you like the Blackfyres, the symbolism is obviously even stronger, though I suppose each side has black in it.

Add in the Baratheon's summer imagery and some debates about food and heraldry. There might have been some vague tie-in to the "Arbor gold = lies" idea. I'm annoyed at myself - I can remember the arguments for and against, but don't have a clue what the thread was called or originally about. I'll edit this if I find it.

Is this the one you're thinking of?

[Lost Melnibonean]

14 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Thank You. I appreciate it. It does sound interesting especially with the seemingly random contextual support. Arbor gold always reminds of the Greatjon saying that Rob was so green he must piss grass. But that is neither here nor there. Anyway thank you for searching for me. 

Speaking of Arbor gold, try this...

[velo-knight]

8 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Thank You. I appreciate it. It does sound interesting especially with the seemingly random contextual support. Arbor gold always reminds of the Greatjon saying that Rob was so green he must piss grass. But that is neither here nor there. Anyway thank you for searching for me. 

 

8 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Is this the one you're thinking of?

Yes, it is! I don't know why I didn't think to search for emeralds.

[The Fattest Leech]

I am going to bump this to find it easier later, and to say that there seems to be a trend of gifts being poison.

[The Fresh PtwP]

I always get pissed with Tyrion's gift. Like c'mon you're a smart guy you know what's about to happen to that book. IIRC Tyrion has met Joff before geez. 

On topic other than adding a little depth to some minor characters i don't think the gifts mean much...except the main casts (Cersei, Tywin, Oberyn, Tyrion)

[sweetsunray]

On 3-9-2016 at 11:10 PM, Seams said:

There has been some excellent analysis of jousting matches by sweetsunray (and maybe others) to show that they foreshadow major conflicts and other plot developments that will arise. Maybe the fact that Joffrey never does more jousting and swordplay than destroy a single book with his sword shows that his story is coming to an end.

Yes, the jousting saddle points to some of the messages and layers put into the jousting scenes. And then it's a "red" jousting saddle. Red stallions end up riderless. He's been gifted a saddle, but no horse. So, with the "red", "saddle" and "jousting" I take it to imply Joffrey won't ever get to ride the saddle.

The ship in the bottle. We have the expression "message in a bottle". The mock-up is built for a Lannister king, but the gift itself is purely ornamental and unusable. So, you could say that the message in the bottle is that the Lannisters won't ever get to pick he fruit from the Redwyne Fleet, certainly if the theory that the whole Dragonstone story that Aurane tells Cersei is a lie and the Tyrells and Redwynes are up to something. Joffrey never even gets to live to see the fleet of Redwyne, let alone Aurane's.

I agree with other comments about Oberyn's gift. There's a connection to poison, a threat, an insult, but also the link to Ser Amory. At the time of the PW Dorne and Oberyn have to content with Tywin's insistence that justice was served with the death of Amory fed to a bear. We know Oberyn is not satisfied with that at all. It's as if Oberyn is messaging through Joffrey to Tywin: oh, you gift me Ser Amory killed by a bear by some turncloak selsswords as justice, well he's a scorpion gift as a reminder how unsatisfying that is.

The silver spurs: I'm reminded of the expression "to earn your spurs" here. I note they're made of "silver", which we're early on are told in the series is a payment for death or assassination, one that Joffrey is circumstantially confirmed to have been the one who orchestrated it. So, you could say Joffrey earned his spurs with the silver he paid the catspaw to assassinate Bran. It's this assassination attempt that Jaime suspects was the reason that Tyrion ended up poisoning Joffrey for in retaliation.

Widow's Wail: two widows wail at the end of the PW, Joffrey's mother Cersei (widow of Robert) and Margaery (widow of Renly AND Joffrey).

On 31-8-2016 at 1:08 AM, Seams said:

One thought I had is that maybe these are symbolic "grave goods". Noble people in the Celtic culture would be buried with weapons and brooches and cups and horse gear to take along to the afterlife. The wedding guests wouldn't be aware that Joffrey is about to die, of course, but the author could be setting up a grand send-off for Joffrey's funeral.

I love this idea, of it actually being "burial gifts" rather than "wedding gifts".

[finger]

IIRC: Timet danaos ut donnae ferentes

Other donors but Joff's family are showing their own strength, sometimes to the point of a veiled threat.

Jalabhar is a skilled archer, as most Summer Islanders.

Marbrand is a knight, then commander of the Golden Cloaks.

Rowan has his own army, Redwin has his fleet. Their taking this side ore another can swing the forces.

Mace gives the chalice where the poison will be placed, it's part of the plot.

Oberyn's is a not so subtle threat.

And now, his family

Cersei is willing to protect him, the fact that she fails makes no difference.

Tywin and Kevan show him the king's way: wield the sword of power, ride the horse, lead, don't stay aside.

Even Tyrion shows him that a good king must be wise, cultivated.

But Joff's reaction is willingly using his lent power to destroy ignored knowledge, showing his cruelty and cowardice. I guess this was the last nail on his chest, the one that made Tywin give up.

[Seams]

10 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

He's been gifted a saddle, but no horse. ... I take it to imply Joffrey won't ever get to ride the saddle.

I think you've hit on a key point. Horse symbolism is complex and layered (almost as complicated as food?) but I think riding a horse often represents power and strength. We see Jon Snow ride a horse when he decides to leave Castle Black after Ned's death, but he slows down and then gets off the horse when he passes Mole's Town. Using the saddle Tyrion made for him, Bran rides a horse named Dancer into the Harvest Feast at Winterfell. (Hodor dances at the festival and Bran "rides" Hodor out of the hall when he goes back to his bedchamber. A topic for another thread: Hodor is Bran's "horse" in the "afterlife journey" to Bloodraven.) Theon has a first-class horse named Smiler which is set on fire when Theon is taken prisoner by Ramsay Snow. Sandor Clegane has Stranger. I'm not sure what to make of Craven, the name Arya gives her horse. Jaime's horses are named Honor and Glory. Dany receives a beautiful horse from Khal Drogo as a wedding gift.

So many of the gifts for Joffrey are horse-related: supple riding boots, a saddle, spurs, a jousting pavilion. The people of Westeros expect Joffrey to be powerful; to be a rider of horses. But he never becomes that powerful figure.

Interesting to note, though, that Joffrey urges Tyrion to become a "rider" at that feast - he wants Tyrion to ride the pig.

[Seams]

I came across something that may be meaningless, but it might explain "who" is Joffrey's horse and why he didn't get to "ride":

Queen Cersei got to her feet in a rustle of skirts. "Your Grace, in the judgment of your small council, it would be neither proper nor wise for you to wed the daughter of a man beheaded for treason, a girl whose brother is in open rebellion against the throne even now. Sire, your councillors beg you, for the good of your realm, set Sansa Stark aside. The Lady Margaery will make you a far more suitable queen."

 

Like a pack of trained dogs, the lords and ladies in the hall began to shout their pleasure. "Margaery," they called. "Give us Margaery!" and "No traitor queens! Tyrell! Tyrell!"

(ACoK, Sansa VIII)

No traitor queens = roan equine trots

@sweetsunray is the originator of the theory that a red horse represents a wrong decision for the rider or the person who is "placing a bet" on that horse. So Joffrey may be betting on the wrong horse by choosing Margaery and/or by setting Sansa aside.

Here is some of sweetsunray's explanation of her red horse idea:

Quote

My essay

The Trail of the Red Stallion II covers the foreshadowing analysis of the tourneys through Sansa's eyes (the Hand's Tourney and Nemday Tourney), but leaves out the foreshadowing of Sansa's arcin the Vale. The premisse is that horses function as a parallel of either the past, present or future. I establish that premisse in the first essay about the Tourney scenes in Ned's POV. For example the joust between Gregor and Loras foreshadows Ned bet on the wrong horse when he bets on Robert, can't control him, and is taken down by the fall (death) of Robert. Next, Gregor beheads the horse, with people trying to stop Gregor and Sansa wailing and screaming... very much the same scene of Ned's beheading. I also suggest that a red stallion is George's hint that the rider is the wrong horse to bet on - the rider is untrustworthy for the POV and the red horse ends up riderless (failure or death). 

 

ETA:

"With this kiss I pledge my love," the dwarf replied hoarsely, "and take you for my lady and wife." He leaned forward, and their lips touched briefly.

(ASoS, Sansa iii)