Additional Antler Men?

[Seams]

Are there other Antler Men who were not discovered before the Blackwater, and who are either secretly working to undermine the Lannisters or who are in hiding?

What do we know of the Antler Men and what were they up to before they were discovered and loaded into trebuchets to be thrown over the walls of the Red Keep?

When Tyrion becomes master of coin, he discovers that they owed the Iron Throne a lot of money. Could they have been working with Petyr Baelish, to have had the ability to borrow?

I have this weird suspicion that Ser Dontos was an Antler Man. He was a big Renly fan boy though, not Stannis, as far as I know.

Could some remaining Antler Men (if there are any) be searching for Edric Storm or for Gendry to try for a Baratheon restoration?

[Lord Wraith]

3 hours ago, Seams said:

Are there other Antler Men who were not discovered before the Blackwater, and who are either secretly working to undermine the Lannisters or who are in hiding?

What do we know of the Antler Men and what were they up to before they were discovered and loaded into trebuchets to be thrown over the walls of the Red Keep?

When Tyrion becomes master of coin, he discovers that they owed the Iron Throne a lot of money. Could they have been working with Petyr Baelish, to have had the ability to borrow?

I have this weird suspicion that Ser Dontos was an Antler Man. He was a big Renly fan boy though, not Stannis, as far as I know.

Could some remaining Antler Men (if there are any) be searching for Edric Dayne or for Gendry to try for a Baratheon restoration?

We don't know a great deal about the Antler Men, however allow me to speculate.

I think the Antler Men were working for Petyr Baelish. The plan was to open the gate for King Renly when he marched North with his huge army and get rewarded for their loyalty or maybe just get their loans paid off. Baelish and Renly came up with this before Renly left KL after Eddard made it clear that he would no nothing to stop the Lannisters and put Stannis on the throne.

Now as we all know Renly got shadow babied and that plan fell through. Baelish knows that Stannis is on the move and has enough men to take the city. This is why he offers the Lannisters his skills diplomat. It is likely that Loras knew of this plan and would look at Baelish as a good ally. He arranges the marriage of Joffrey to Margaery while being safety out of KL. 

Only thing is he either forgot to tell the Antler Men to abandon the plan or simply let them take the fall for the plan. 

[Rob Storm]

1 hour ago, Lord Wraith said:

We don't know a great deal about the Antler Men, however allow me to speculate.

I think the Antler Men were working for Petyr Baelish. The plan was to open the gate for King Renly when he marched North with his huge army and get rewarded for their loyalty or maybe just get their loans paid off. Baelish and Renly came up with this before Renly left KL after Eddard made it clear that he would no nothing to stop the Lannisters and put Stannis on the throne.

Now as we all know Renly got shadow babied and that plan fell through. Baelish knows that Stannis is on the move and has enough men to take the city. This is why he offers the Lannisters his skills diplomat. It is likely that Loras knew of this plan and would look at Baelish as a good ally. He arranges the marriage of Joffrey to Margaery while being safety out of KL. 

Only thing is he either forgot to tell the Antler Men to abandon the plan or simply let them take the fall for the plan. 

This makes 100% sense to me.  LF and Renly were friendly at court and Stannis mistrusted them all.  LF has always done whatever had the best probability of success and Renly was the strongest at the start of the war of the 5 kings.  Considering their familiarity it makes sense for LF to plant a scheme(Antler Men) that would help Renly when his Knights of Summer ever reached the gates of Kingslanding.  

[Flavia Gemina]

9 hours ago, Seams said:

Are there other Antler Men who were not discovered before the Blackwater, and who are either secretly working to undermine the Lannisters or who are in hiding?

What do we know of the Antler Men and what were they up to before they were discovered and loaded into trebuchets to be thrown over the walls of the Red Keep?

When Tyrion becomes master of coin, he discovers that they owed the Iron Throne a lot of money. Could they have been working with Petyr Baelish, to have had the ability to borrow?

I have this weird suspicion that Ser Dontos was an Antler Man. He was a big Renly fan boy though, not Stannis, as far as I know.

Could some remaining Antler Men (if there are any) be searching for Edric Dayne or for Gendry to try for a Baratheon restoration?

Edric Storm?

 

This makes sense. Gendry & Edric will play a role yet. Maybe the antler men will form an alliance with someone important.

[Seams]

7 hours ago, Flavia Gemina said:

Edric Storm?

This makes sense. Gendry & Edric will play a role yet. Maybe the antler men will form an alliance with someone important.

Yes, oops. I'll fix the OP.

13 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

We don't know a great deal about the Antler Men, however allow me to speculate.

I think the Antler Men were working for Petyr Baelish. The plan was to open the gate for King Renly when he marched North with his huge army and get rewarded for their loyalty or maybe just get their loans paid off. Baelish and Renly came up with this before Renly left KL after Eddard made it clear that he would no nothing to stop the Lannisters and put Stannis on the throne.

Now as we all know Renly got shadow babied and that plan fell through. Baelish knows that Stannis is on the move and has enough men to take the city. This is why he offers the Lannisters his skills diplomat. It is likely that Loras knew of this plan and would look at Baelish as a good ally. He arranges the marriage of Joffrey to Margaery while being safety out of KL. 

Only thing is he either forgot to tell the Antler Men to abandon the plan or simply let them take the fall for the plan. 

I agree. As soon as I focused on the Ser Dontos enthusiasm for Renly during my most recent re-read, I started suspecting a Littlefinger connection. The additional evidence about these men being deeply in debt to the crown also pointed to Littlefinger. On the other hand, Petyr may have cooked the books to make it appear that these men had taken out loans, knowing that they would soon be dead when he betrayed them to the City Watch. He could take the money and be confident that no one would trace it to him.

If we're right that Baelish was involved with the Antler Men - either 1) genuinely working to put Renly in power because they wanted Renly to be king; or 2) bribing them to help Renly for some unknown strategic reason or 3) just setting them up to take the fall as a cover for some embezzlement he had under way, then I think we can look at the coins of Westeros for some more clues about Littlefinger's linked strategies. From the wiki:

Copper Coins

• Penny and Halfpenny.
• Half Groat, 2 pennies.
• Groat, 4 pennies.
• Star, 8 pennies.

Silver Coins

• Stag, 7 stars or 56 pennies
• Moon, 49 stars or 392 pennies

Gold Coins

• Dragons, 30 Moons, 210 Stags or 11,760 pennies.

I think Baelish has obtained a couple of dragon eggs. (My most recent rambling post about this can be found here and an earlier, related post is here.) If I'm right, that means that Baelish has manipulated Penny and Groat into providing him with Dragons, which would mean that three out of seven metaphorical coins have already been banked or spent (invested?) in his machinations.

Since Groat was beheaded that may explain the role of the "Half Groat" in Baelish's secret plots, too - I suspect Littlefinger had Groat killed to keep him quiet about the dragon eggs or to get him to give up the eggs in the first place, but he made it appear that it was part of the dwarf purge undertaken to claim Cersei's bounty on Tyrion's head. Or maybe, similar to the way that Tyrion is called "the half man," Penny and Groat are considered to be a half penny and a half groat simply by virtue of being little people.

Cersei uses the phrase "half a groat" several times, so I may be wrong about who is responsible for the beheading of Groat. On the other hand, a couple of her references are made in connection with her wish to harm Margaery Tyrell, whose role in the Lannister family was brokered by Petyr Baelish.

So involvement with the antler men makes perfect sense for Littlefinger. There has to be a "stag" angle to his plotting, if the coin metaphor is correct. I bet we'll find out more about Petyr and the Antler Men in the next books, or whether there are additional Antler Men still under cover.

Where does that leave the moon coin, you might ask? Think about the Moon Door and the Moon Gate. Where are they? The Eyrie and the Vale. Petyr made use of the Moon Door in an unexpected way, and he just enlisted Nestor Royce, keeper of the gates, as a close ally by dangling a hereditary castle in front of him. He also had mysterious tapestries sent to the Moon Gate. I know there are theories that something important, such as the sword Widow's Wail, is wrapped up in those tapestries. I am guessing that the tapestries show a map or illustrate a story from history or legend - this would be consistent with the weaving and sewing motif throughout the books.

Anyone have ideas about a star connection for Baelish, to round out his use of the seven coins? What was the coin from the Reach that was found in the jailer's room after Tyrion escaped? Edit: A "golden hand" from Highgarden. I wonder whether that "evidence" was planted by Littlefinger, too? It was found by Qyburn - could he be part of the "Master of Coin" conspiracy? Littlefinger was supposedly out on the ship in the harbor by that time, but he could have had a Kettleblack plant the coin.

I will also take a look at Tyrion and at Gyles Rosby as Masters of Coin, to see if we get hints that might help to illuminate what Petyr Baelish had up his sleeve while he held the position.

Bringing this back to the OP, maybe I will also have another look at the Ser Dontos passages to see if there is detail that can support the stag / Antler Men connection. Baelish paid Ser Dontos with a "bag of dragons," so there wasn't a stag connection in that detail. This is the quote that made me realize that Dontos was a big fan of Renly, and possibly in league with the Antler Men:

And do you know who led the vanguard? Do you? Do you? Do you? It was Lord Renly! Lord Renly in his green armor, with the fires shimmering off his golden antlers! Lord Renly with his tall spear in his hand! They say he killed Ser Guyard Morrigen himself in single combat, and a dozen other great knights as well. It was Renly, it was Renly, it was Renly! Oh! the banners, darling Sansa! Oh! to be a knight!

Of course, it was actually Ser Garlan Tyrell wearing Renly's armor. And he was originally a strong supporter of Renly, and might now be a perfect candidate for a hidden Antler Man working behind the scenes . . .

P.S. Littlefinger chews mint all the time. I would guess that this is a pun on someone who mints coins as part of his duties. He IS the mint.

[Sullen]

14 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

Baelish and Renly came up with this before Renly left KL after Eddard made it clear that he would no nothing to stop the Lannisters and put Stannis on the throne.

Renly didn't know Eddard intended to put Stannis on the Throne.

As far as he knew, Eddard died trying to claim the regency.

[BricksAndSparrows]

I figured the Antler men where just traitors who didn't like Joff's odds. I didn't get the impression that their was any great conspiracy. If there are any left, I'm sure they are of questionable loyalty. In some sense, there are always going to be Antler Men, somewhere.

[Tucu]

Given that Varys is the source of the names of the Antler men, it is not hard to imagine that not all of them were Renly/Stannis conspirators. At least one of them seems to be a Littlefinger man (the Chief Gaoler) and many of them owed a lot of money to the Iron Throne; so Varys got rid of one of Littlefinger men in Varys territory (the dungeons) and weakened the Lannisters.

[Lord Wraith]

9 hours ago, Seams said:

Yes, oops. I'll fix the OP.

I agree. As soon as I focused on the Ser Dontos enthusiasm for Renly during my most recent re-read, I started suspecting a Littlefinger connection. The additional evidence about these men being deeply in debt to the crown also pointed to Littlefinger. On the other hand, Petyr may have cooked the books to make it appear that these men had taken out loans, knowing that they would soon be dead when he betrayed them to the City Watch. He could take the money and be confident that no one would trace it to him.

If we're right that Baelish was involved with the Antler Men - either 1) genuinely working to put Renly in power because they wanted Renly to be king; or 2) bribing them to help Renly for some unknown strategic reason or 3) just setting them up to take the fall as a cover for some embezzlement he had under way, then I think we can look at the coins of Westeros for some more clues about Littlefinger's linked strategies. From the wiki:

Copper Coins

• Penny and Halfpenny.
• Half Groat, 2 pennies.
• Groat, 4 pennies.
• Star, 8 pennies.

Silver Coins

• Stag, 7 stars or 56 pennies
• Moon, 49 stars or 392 pennies

Gold Coins

• Dragons, 30 Moons, 210 Stags or 11,760 pennies.

I think Baelish has obtained a couple of dragon eggs. (My most recent rambling post about this can be found here and an earlier, related post is here.) If I'm right, that means that Baelish has manipulated Penny and Groat into providing him with Dragons, which would mean that three out of seven metaphorical coins have already been banked or spent (invested?) in his machinations.

Since Groat was beheaded that may explain the role of the "Half Groat" in Baelish's secret plots, too - I suspect Littlefinger had Groat killed to keep him quiet about the dragon eggs or to get him to give up the eggs in the first place, but he made it appear that it was part of the dwarf purge undertaken to claim Cersei's bounty on Tyrion's head. Or maybe, similar to the way that Tyrion is called "the half man," Penny and Groat are considered to be a half penny and a half groat simply by virtue of being little people.

Cersei uses the phrase "half a groat" several times, so I may be wrong about who is responsible for the beheading of Groat. On the other hand, a couple of her references are made in connection with her wish to harm Margaery Tyrell, whose role in the Lannister family was brokered by Petyr Baelish.

So involvement with the antler men makes perfect sense for Littlefinger. There has to be a "stag" angle to his plotting, if the coin metaphor is correct. I bet we'll find out more about Petyr and the Antler Men in the next books, or whether there are additional Antler Men still under cover.

Where does that leave the moon coin, you might ask? Think about the Moon Door and the Moon Gate. Where are they? The Eyrie and the Vale. Petyr made use of the Moon Door in an unexpected way, and he just enlisted Nestor Royce, keeper of the gates, as a close ally by dangling a hereditary castle in front of him. He also had mysterious tapestries sent to the Moon Gate. I know there are theories that something important, such as the sword Widow's Wail, is wrapped up in those tapestries. I am guessing that the tapestries show a map or illustrate a story from history or legend - this would be consistent with the weaving and sewing motif throughout the books.

Anyone have ideas about a star connection for Baelish, to round out his use of the seven coins? What was the coin from the Reach that was found in the jailer's room after Tyrion escaped? Edit: A "golden hand" from Highgarden. I wonder whether that "evidence" was planted by Littlefinger, too? It was found by Qyburn - could he be part of the "Master of Coin" conspiracy? Littlefinger was supposedly out on the ship in the harbor by that time, but he could have had a Kettleblack plant the coin.

I will also take a look at Tyrion and at Gyles Rosby as Masters of Coin, to see if we get hints that might help to illuminate what Petyr Baelish had up his sleeve while he held the position.

Bringing this back to the OP, maybe I will also have another look at the Ser Dontos passages to see if there is detail that can support the stag / Antler Men connection. Baelish paid Ser Dontos with a "bag of dragons," so there wasn't a stag connection in that detail. This is the quote that made me realize that Dontos was a big fan of Renly, and possibly in league with the Antler Men:

And do you know who led the vanguard? Do you? Do you? Do you? It was Lord Renly! Lord Renly in his green armor, with the fires shimmering off his golden antlers! Lord Renly with his tall spear in his hand! They say he killed Ser Guyard Morrigen himself in single combat, and a dozen other great knights as well. It was Renly, it was Renly, it was Renly! Oh! the banners, darling Sansa! Oh! to be a knight!

Of course, it was actually Ser Garlan Tyrell wearing Renly's armor. And he was originally a strong supporter of Renly, and might now be a perfect candidate for a hidden Antler Man working behind the scenes . . .

P.S. Littlefinger chews mint all the time. I would guess that this is a pun on someone who mints coins as part of his duties. He IS the mint.

Baelish is working to work with anyone sans Stannis really since he would kick Baelish off the small council. I'd say it was mutual interest that but Renly and Baelish together. I think the Antler Men are all dead Baelish or Varys would have made sure of it.

Groat I believe was killed for Cersei's Great Dwarf Hunt. Some people think they got dragon eggs from the Sealord as a grand reward, pretty fucking good reward. I have also seen theories on Penny being an agent of Baelish. Its possible but there aren't really enough hints. I will check out the links.

I had caught the mint parallel before. Makes me wonder if he might ally with Manderely and the silver mints he has. Manderely does need a Stark and Baelish has one.

8 hours ago, Sullen said:

Renly didn't know Eddard intended to put Stannis on the Throne.

As far as he knew, Eddard died trying to claim the regency.

I think Baelish and Renly had been working together before this time. In fact the the plan that Renly gives to Eddard is the one they wanted. Baelish's plan was a hail mary that Eddard refused. So then Baelish goes and makes his plan with Renly who leaves then goes to backstab Ned because Baelish didn't want Stannis on the throne. I of course may be wrong.

 

[Poupsi]

15 hours ago, Seams said:

When Tyrion becomes master of coin, he discovers that they owed the Iron Throne a lot of money. Could they have been working with Petyr Baelish, to have had the ability to borrow?

True, Tyrion put their heads on spikes. I remember some of them had offices from Petyr Baelish as well. Isn't the Chief Goaler or something.

As for their motives I'm not certain of what they truly intended.

[Sullen]

On 02/09/2016 at 11:24 PM, Lord Wraith said:

I think Baelish and Renly had been working together before this time. In fact the the plan that Renly gives to Eddard is the one they wanted. Baelish's plan was a hail mary that Eddard refused. So then Baelish goes and makes his plan with Renly who leaves then goes to backstab Ned because Baelish didn't want Stannis on the throne. I of course may be wrong.

I think Baelish and Renly liked each other, and that Littlefinger might have been working in Renly's interest until Stannis murdered him (considering it would be equally beneficial to him), but I doubt they were actively plotting together. Renly and Littlefinger both offer Eddard a similar plan because, let's be honest here, it was the obvious sensible thing to do.

Renly seeming honestly sombre and scared once Eddard refuses his help will point to him being honest with him, and his genuine surprise when Stannis declares himself King and attacks him would also point to him being unaware of Stannis being Robert's rightful heir.

Essentially, once Eddard got himself f*cked up by Cersei, Baelish decided to secretly bet on Renly, seeing as he was the most likely candidate to win the Throne and was friendly to him in any case.

[M_Tootles]

Oh this coins thing seems very very promising... off to read your linked posts.

[Byfort of Corfe]

I think that the Antler men were just men who had decided that the odds were with Stannis and that since populations of cities that resist are typically put to the sword, they figured that actively helping Stannis would save them and their families.

 

Are there more? Possibly but after what happened and the fact that there is currently no great opposition to the Lannisters I imagine that they are very quiet.