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Triskjavikson

Bakker's The Greart Ordeal IV (spoilers): Demanding a Disputation

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This is the perpetual thread devoted to the works of R. Scott Bakker, primarily the books in The Second Apocalypse series, the first novel is The Darkness that Comes Before, the sixth novel which was published on July 12, 2016 is The Great Ordeal. 

The series is called The Second Apocalypse and is currently comprised of two sub-series, a trilogy and a quartet. Potentially, there will be a third series, although the author has stated that the quartet completes his original vision for the story. 

The first trilogy of books is subtitled The Prince of Nothing these three books are:

  1. The Darkness that Comes Before
  2. The Warrior Prophet
  3. The Thousandfold Thought

The second quartet of books is subtitled The Aspect Emperor, these four books are:

  1. The Judging Eye
  2. The White-Luck Warrior
  3. The Great Ordeal (2016)
  4. The Unholy Consult (2017)

The seventh novel, The Unholy Consult is not completed, and will presumably be published in 2017, a precise publication date is not yet set. The Unholy Consult will also include an expanded Appendix/Encyclopedic Glossary, also not completed. The original Glossary exists currently only at the end of the third book, The Thousandfold Thought. The sixth book was completed two years ago but publication was withheld as the author negotiated to expand the subseries from three volumes to four in his series contract, now that the sixth book is being published and the contracts have successfully been expanded, the seventh book is tentatively scheduled for 2017.

Additionally, Bakker has published three short stories, The False Sun and The Four Revelations of Cinial'jin on Bakker's Blog Three Pound Brain and The Knife of Many Hands, which is available for purchase. This thread contains spoilers for these publications. The False Sun is the most discussed work of these three shorts.

Since Bakker's writing uses layers of revelation, newcomers are strongly advised to finish the books before coming here; otherwise the spoilers will rot your soul. Eternally.  This applies to The Great Ordeal, so those that have not yet read this most recent volume are advised to avoid this thread.

Most denizens of this thread have also read Bakker's non-fantasy novels Neuropath and Disciple of the Dog, but the spoiler policy is unclear. You are advised to hide crucial plot points in those novels.

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I think much like the sundering of the Ordeal followed by their reunion post tragedy, it is time for our threads to merge anew.

And henceforth, readers of these threads shall eat Sranc...

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Nah, I think that's perfect Trisk.

@Michael Seswatha Jordan

Quote

Two way Kellhus could've known of radiation poisoning and the like. One, that seems to be what happened when the No-God died. Two, there are large crater all over Earwa that could be the result of past Nike's (purely conjecture, I know). Also, the Probability Trance. He can figure almost anything else out using it, once he seen the signs he knew it was bad, he never called it radiation poisoning, but knew to cull the sick.

Well, it made destroying the horde easier and their passage across the river easier (forget the name). But it came with the loss of more soldiers, hence, "Not everyone will survive." (paraphrasing).

Huh, interesting about the other craters; could have real potential if true

as to the bolded, are you talking about the Indigo Plague? Because from what I remember from Werts History and the glossary, that seemed to be pretty virulent and spread through out Earwa, not sure that fits (at least to my admittedly limited understanding) the symptoms of radiation sickness

then again, I kinda dig a connection between MPs m.o. and possible inchie nuke technology. Can't totally discount that

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5 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

I have no idea how you've come to the conclusion that Kayutas was conditioned to act shocked as a way for Proyas to take over the Ordeal. Kellhus has been conditioning for that to happen since TJE. The Nuke was a suprise, and made Kelhuss's plan all the more easier. His original plan would be worked also. His sorcerers at the summit's killing Sranc and the Ordeal in the rear allowing no escape for the scranc. They were pinned in. How could have Kellhus possibly known of the Nuke? Matter of fact he never even found it, he was alerted of its presence by others. It just made his job of defeating the horde easier, but at a cost, loss of soldiers. Hence, fleeeeeee! Kellhus was always going back to Momemn to salvage what he could, eliminate the threat of Fayanal and I assume he has a use for Meppa we're not yet aware of.

Yes, Kellhus has been conditioning Proyas for this since TJE, and seeing the shock on Kayutas is a big deal to Proyas to destroy what remained of his belief. Basically I come to this conclusion because I believe in Kellhus to a point - all of this is following his plan. I don't understand why everything he does is treated as suspect, then suddenly a bunch of people seem to be reading his response to the nuke, that "fleee" as genuine rather than part of the plan.  Hell, even if you are right and he doesnt know about the nuke he could still have planned for some kind of similar 'disaster' that had him seeming to be caught off guard, its all part of controlling everyone.  Its the only way his actions make sense to me, everything that as unfolded thus far is part of his plan.

In prior threads there has been talk about how reading the books literally is the correct way to do it, and if that's 100% true then I could be off base here. Alternatively however reading the books up until this point has been telling us that everything is following his plan, and I don't see any reason to question that yet - everything in Ish goes according to his broad plan after all.  If our speculation is right, and AK is ultimately wrong, then his error is not and never has been in his reasoning - it's in the input that he gets in the first place.  He only makes the one mistake and it blinds him completely and utterly, yet aside from that he completely masters everything he comes into contact with and everything goes according to his plan right up until the outcome that he has brought about is not what he thought it was going to be - because his input conditions were wrong.  Koringhus had the judging eye, Kellhus lacks that one critical piece of information.

On Moe and Serwa - yeah, I had the impression they had been banging. Yes they're technically not related, so its not "incest", but the human disgust response to incest is based in your social family not actual blood - blood siblings raised apart don't have it, unrelated people raised as siblings do. But Moe and Serwa barely qualify as human, and weren't raised as such, so theyre a special case and they do know they're not related.

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@karaddin, I agree wholly with most of what you say. I just don't think he was planning a catastrophe at Dagliash. His military plan was solid to destroy or at least mitigate the horde to allow the Ordeal's forward march. I just believe the Nuke was a total surprise. Backed up by his response and him going into the Probability Trance.

@R'hllor's Red Lobster, you're right about the indigo plague, my fault.

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@karaddin

Whoa, dope. So, this raises a question for me; do you think there are outside forces that are beyond AKs ken that can fuck up his plans in a significant way? To me, it seems the WLW near success, and successive failure/ intercession of lil Kil/Ajokli is too serendipitous (cf: Kellhus' amazement that Saubon performed so perfectly on plains of Mengedda)

Do you think the nuke could be something along those lines? Some subtle (hah!) push from something on the outside to direct Kellhus a certain way?

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RRL - Yes absolutely, I think he saw Yatwer moving against him but did not see the nature of the WLW in a way that could prevent it. Without Kelmomas and Ajokli I think he does genuinely die there.  Previously I thought it was the resurrection of MP that meant the WLW vision wouldn't come true, but clearly that wasn't the case so it was outside his planning. My one uncertainty here is that he clearly somehow programmed Kelmomas in his whelming, to the point that I wonder if he wasn't actually the human kid that Esme loved prior to that point - we only see him afterwards. It's possible that AK knew Yatwer would strike in a way he couldn't foresee and deliberately sent his son the way of Ajokli to run intereference...this would be a gamble with very little control over it and no idea of the details, but his design in the big picture.

As to the nuke? I've got no problems accepting that it *could* be something along those lines apart from the consequences of it. To my interpretation of the book it just fits his plans too well, it either was part of them or was incorporated into them to accomplish exactly what he wanted to do anyway. I still haven't gone back to reread and I really need to do that, but if he does slip into the probability trance after finding it that is one strike against this reading of it, but I don't see it as a fatal one. Perhaps he had theorised in the probability trance that something like it would be there, but the uncertainty around what it would be was a block for the probability trance; it wasn't until he dug it up and knew what it was that he could run the calculations from that point.  I absolutely think he knew he was going to find *something* though, because emptying Viri is just not the most efficient way to shut down that ambush and a Dunyain takes the shortest path.

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16 minutes ago, karaddin said:

As to the nuke? I've got no problems accepting that it *could* be something along those lines apart from the consequences of it. To my interpretation of the book it just fits his plans too well, it either was part of them or was incorporated into them to accomplish exactly what he wanted to do anyway. I still haven't gone back to reread and I really need to do that, but if he does slip into the probability trance after finding it that is one strike against this reading of it, but I don't see it as a fatal one. Perhaps he had theorised in the probability trance that something like it would be there, but the uncertainty around what it would be was a block for the probability trance; it wasn't until he dug it up and knew what it was that he could run the calculations from that point.  I absolutely think he knew he was going to find *something* though, because emptying Viri is just not the most efficient way to shut down that ambush and a Dunyain takes the shortest path.

Ok. Now I can buy that. And it's a bit more reasonable than thinking he didn't expect to find nothing, I'd have to agree. But he does enter the PT, go back and read it.

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7 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

I really hope he DIDNT expect to find the Nuke. I'm sick of the Kellus is perfect and it's all part of his plan bullshit.

Me too. And, how I read it I didn't think expected to find the Nuke and was surprised by it. That said @karaddin, makes a decent argument that he expected to find something. I just read it as he was going to bring the mountain down into the Bashrag and Sranc hidden within.....and out pops this Tekne artifact.

ETA: Well a trap within a trap, it's the reason I believe Aurang showed up. To arm the Nuke or what have you.

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I just don't see why he'd dig that up rather than collapsing the walls of the well (or whatever they're called), it would take a lot less effort and time. Unless he could sense something.  I also have trouble accepting Aurang arming the bomb, it certainly seems to be what happened but he's incompetent and really seems like he would have used it earlier if possible.

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Well we've heard from Aurang over and over how the Consult is biding time for the right moment. It would make sense if they are very close to raising the No-God. Which, where we're at in the story that seems highly likely. So breaking out any and all weapons and tactics to keep an army from reaching Golgoterreth and stopping that from happening does make sense. Remember his words to Sacarress, "There is very little time left" (again paraphrasing).

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Was the idea not to re-unite the Bakker threads? So as to have only one, and continue the established numbering system?

Also, I take umbrage at the thread subtitle. I’m simply too old to get joy out of the deliberate overstepping of established boundaries of communication. People can say what they want in their own posts, but I feel uncomfortable participating under and umbrella of juvenile verbiage. Wit, cleverness, and intertextuality should be our Mark, not latrinary humour and sexual deviance.

Bakker can demean his characters, but we shouldn’t do the same to ourselves.

We are not Inrilatus.

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are you saying that the pet monkey is throwing dung from the trees? very swiftian, if so.

8 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

 he expected to find something. I just read it as he was going to bring the mountain down into the Bashrag and Sranc hidden within.....and out pops this Tekne artifact.

we know that they had anticipated ishterebinth to be a trap; as the cunuroi had demanded both niom plus dagliash, it follows that they expected the latter to hold likewise some adverse surprise.

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14 hours ago, Happy Ent said:

Was the idea not to re-unite the Bakker threads? So as to have only one, and continue the established numbering system?

Also, I take umbrage at the thread subtitle. I’m simply too old to get joy out of the deliberate overstepping of established boundaries of communication. People can say what they want in their own posts, but I feel uncomfortable participating under and umbrella of juvenile verbiage. Wit, cleverness, and intertextuality should be our Mark, not latrinary humour and sexual deviance.

Bakker can demean his characters, but we shouldn’t do the same to ourselves.

We are not Inrilatus.

But there was a buggering.  And I figure the average person who has not read TGO would hardly understand the dread implications. 

If you can bring a few more into the fold though, Happy Ent, maybe I can be persuaded to edit it. 

 

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I'd edit it to indicate the numbering of the general thread... But definitely leave in the buggering.

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35 minutes ago, Triskan said:

But there was a buggering.  And I figure the average person who has not read TGO would hardly understand the dread implications. 

If you can bring a few more into the fold though, Happy Ent, maybe I can be persuaded to edit it. 

 

I'd vote to change as it may run afoul of the spoiler policy on the board. 

A few alternatives off the cuff: 

Umbilicous Walk of Shame

Losing my Religion

It's Only Awkward if we let it be Awkward

Zero Plus Zero is One

 

 

 

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