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The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread, Part II


Werthead

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But this "they" is interesting. I'd been under the impression the only two to have survived were Ned and Howland Reed, and after the fight the two had found Lyanna. Unless "they" refers to one person (Howland), wouldn't that seem to imply that Ned found her before the fight? Would that change things?

I'd always imagined that Lyanna had extracted her promise from Ned *before* the fight. It didn't make sense to me that such honorable figures would bar a man from seeing his sister... especially if she was ill/dying.

Instead, consider this path of events... Eddard and his friends ride to the ToJ at the end of the Rebellion. They are met by three of the Kingsguard, who allow Eddard, alone, to see his sister. He goes up to her, sees her in a bed of blood holding an infant son. She speaks to him and extracts a promise, to protect her son, and then dies. After some time, *they* (the Kingsguard and Eddards friends) find him. Eddard orders one of the midwives/wetnurses to take the infant, and to follow him away. The Kingsguard object, arguing that they are responsible for the future heir to the throne... "Here it begins"... Eddard refuses, knowing that he promised Lyanna to keep the boy safe... "No, now it ends"...

This would seem to tie things together. Of course, it's also possible that the "they" refers to Howland Reed and some midwives/wetnurses, who found Eddard *after* the fight. Either is supported by the text we have.

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As a reader with a penchant for debunking common knowledge, let me just say that I have carefully considered the impressive amount of verbiage in favor of R+L=J. And I have decided that is it probably correct. Oh well, you can't win them all. :)

(Mormont will show up to contradict me at any moment, so all is not lost :))

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We don't know why the Kingsguard were where Lyanna was. But I can't quite credit a scenario in which Ned and friends show up and chat a bit with the Targaryen KG, who tell them "Go on into the castle, visit with your sister, have a nice time, and we'll kill you when you're done." It's clear that Ned sees Lyanna before she dies and that he and his men fight with the KG and he and Howland Reed are the only survivors. Therefore there was clearly violence between him and the KG at some point.

A) As I think most of us have assumed, Ned and friends fight the KG on arrival and, once the KG are dead, Ned charges in to find his sister, who is lying in a bloody bed holding a withered crown of blue roses. They talk and she extracts more than one promise from him, not permitting herself to die until he has agreed to what she asks. "They" find Ned holding her hand and Howland Reed takes her hand from Ned's. If Rhaegar had any sense at all, there were servants there to take care of Lyanna's basic needs and at LEAST one wet-nurse. I think the wet-nurse (whom I believe to have been Wylla) was part of the "they" that was with Howland when he found Ned. After that, Ned helps his men bury the bodies of all the slain, takes Dawn, and heads for Starfall.

B) The friendly KG let Ned through, who makes promises to Lyanna who dies and "they" find Ned as above. After this, Ned's men and the KG fight. I can't think why they'd do so now if they didn't feel the need before, unless Lyanna told Ned something that made him angry enough to attack the KG (although in his memory he doesn't seem angry) or Lyanna told Ned something and, when he mentioned it to the KG, they realized it was too important, too dangerous, to let him leave with that knowledge. Maybe something about (shuddering as I say it) AEGON?

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We don't know why the Kingsguard were where Lyanna was.
The possibilities include:
  1. Rhaegar ordered them there.
  2. Lyanna's unborn child was a Targaryen, so they were there to protect royal blood.
  3. They personally decided that they needed cover for their unwillingness to defend Mad Aerys. So, they arranged to be doing something else important (something that was also in service of their oath) while Kings Landing was being attacked and Aerys was being killed. If that was their decision, they share some of Jamie's culpability in the death of the King they were sworn to defend.

Me, I think all three are true.

Clearly, they did not come to the Tower of Joy so that they could die in battle with honor and so wash themselves of Aerys's sins. Why not? Because they could have died in battle at any of the other places Ned mentioned to them (e.g. the Trident, King's Landing). They came to the Tower of Joy for something more than just a death in battle.

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Since by this time the KG had to know that Rhaegar's children were dead, they could have decided they still wanted a child of Rhaegar's--bastard or not--instead of a child of Mad Aerys'. Jaime remembers Rhaegar telling him (before leaving for the Trident, where he was killed) that he--Rhaegar--was going to do something about his father when he got back, and Jaime was also horrified by what he heard of Aerys' wife crying out that he was hurting her during sex. I'm not sure how old Viserys was at this point, but he may have been old enough for it to be clear that he had inherited Aerys' madness.

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But I can't quite credit a scenario in which Ned and friends show up and chat a bit with the Targaryen KG, who tell them "Go on into the castle, visit with your sister, have a nice time, and we'll kill you when you're done."

My point wasn't that the KG planned to kill Eddard and his men all along, and just waited 'till after Ned saw his sister. The war was over, the Rebellion had succeeded, and it was apparent that Eddard was not there for a fight (he had arrived with just a small group of friends, and it seems unlikely that Eddard would have opted for a violent resolution if it wasn't necessary.) Rather, they were ordered to guard Lyanna (and her child) and keep them safe. They allowed Ned to see Lyanna because this didn't conflict with their orders. However, my suggestion was that Ned's promise to Lyanna *did* conflict with their orders. Ned was trying to take the baby away to Winterfell, and without the KG. This the KG could not allow.

That Eddard and the KG didn't initially come to blows would allow Eddard to inform them of the deaths of Rhaegar at the Trident and Aerys, Elia, and the children at King's Landing. The KG would thus realize that, according to this theory, Lyanna's child was the only remaining heir to the Targaryen throne. Thus, they were honor bound to protect the infant king. "And thus it begins"... which appears to refer to the reign of an infant Targaryen king. But Eddard's promise required that he take the child and keep its Targaryen past a secret... "No, here it ends..." Eddard is preventing this reign from happening, by taking the child north.

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Thus, they were honor bound to protect the infant king. "And thus it begins"... which appears to refer to the reign of an infant Targaryen king. But Eddard's promise required that he take the child and keep its Targaryen past a secret... "No, here it ends..." Eddard is preventing this reign from happening, by taking the child north.

Interesting interpretation. I never gave that particular choice of words that much thought.

However, considering the state he appears to have been in after Lyanna died makes me think he wasn't really in a condition to fight anyone, especially three of the very best, much less survive such a fight...

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However, considering the state he appears to have been in after Lyanna died makes me think he wasn't really in a condition to fight anyone, especially three of the very best, much less survive such a fight...

I dunno... I might argue that this would help even the odds a bit for a 7-vs.-3 matchup. Multiple opponents are a *&%^&, even when you're very good.

It might also have provided motivation for Eddard... here are three people standing between him and the promise he made to his beloved, dead sister. Rage and adrenalin do funky things.

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Since by this time the KG had to know that Rhaegar's children were dead, they could have decided they still wanted a child of Rhaegar's--bastard or not--instead of a child of Mad Aerys'.

Sounds incredible farfetched and is blatant treason as well.

I'm not sure how old Viserys was at this point, but he may have been old enough for it to be clear that he had inherited Aerys' madness.

It was clear and must have been quite serious in a child since it seemed to have been the decisive reason for Barristan’s defection.

That Eddard and the KG didn't initially come to blows would allow Eddard to inform them of the deaths of Rhaegar at the Trident and Aerys, Elia, and the children at King's Landing. The KG would thus realize that, according to this theory, Lyanna's child was the only remaining heir to the Targaryen throne.

They already knew about The Trident and Aerys death according to Ned's dream.

They seem almost bored when Ned wonders why they aren't with Viserys and Rhaella.(the obvious question).

But if Lyanna's child is Rhaegar's trueborn son, they are doing what they are sworn to do, guarding the king.

Really, I have yet to see another theory that even superficially could account for their behaviour. and no, that Rhaegar assigned the lord commander of the kingsguard to menial body guard duty when the fate of the Targaryen dynasty was the decided, is not a reasonable theory.

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and no, that Rhaegar assigned the lord commander of the kingsguard to menial body guard duty when the fate of the Targaryen dynasty was the decided, is not a reasonable theory.

"I have my explanation and accept none other. id est, you are wrong for not thinking like me."

Really, now, these guys are bloody fanatics, and their vows have something highlighting that the king's orders are absolute, and yet you're suggesting that it's in their nature to violate it? For one thing, if they were so protective, why didn't they ride with Rhaegar, nevermind protecting the current king, Aerys? It's somehow mind boggling to accept that they would follow an order and not protect the acting king and his direct -perfect- heir, yet refuse to think they would follow yet another order.

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"I have my explanation and accept none other. id est, you are wrong for not thinking like me."

Not really, I've just not yet encountered another theory that account for their behaviour that remotely satisfies me. That is not say that there couldn't be one, of course.

Really, now, these guys are bloody fanatics, and their vows have something highlighting that the king's orders are absolute, and yet you're suggesting that it's in their nature to violate it?

No, but when you come to a point where those orders makes them unable to ensure the kings saftey, they better get that order explicitly from him.

It's somehow mind boggling to accept that they would follow an order and not protect the acting king and his direct -perfect- heir, yet refuse to think they would follow yet another order.

The saftey of the king is the kingsguards paramount concern. For Hightower to fail so miserable in his responsbilites as he did, he needed to have very good reason for his absence. Yes, if the king has ordered him to roast marshmallows and look out for Lyanna in the middle of a civil war Hightower would go, but it would be under protest. I seriously doubt that what was the king intended when they were detached for Rhaegar's service, and their oath is to the king, not him.

And even if they gotten such a mindboogling wasteful and senseless order why stay at the TOJ after the kings death? does the child king Viserys have to crawl out on all four and personally countermand the the dead crown prince order when his need is so obvious?

I'm convinced that whatever Rhaegar asked them to do was something that they agreed merited the relative exposure of the royal family.(Still, If they had known the result they would have been honorbound to refuse.) My theory is that it has something to do with a quest regarding the propechy. This is what I believe the "far away" comment was about. When returning they went to the the TOJ when they realized Lyanna's child had become first in the succession order.

This is the only explanation I can think of for why they are so smug and arrogant when they encounter Ned despite their epic failure as kingsguard.

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I've always pondered as to why the three Kingsguard remained at the ToJ after the Trident especially since do not subscribe to R + L = J. So this is what I came up with :)

Rhaegar kidnaps Lyanna. He flees back towards Kingslanding and gets his three Knights to accompany him to ToJ. Being that they are sworn to obey they went, although it's possible that they didn't like what was happening. Why would Aerys allow this? Well, at the time there was no conflict and therefore no reason to fear anything.

So, Rhaegar and co. are at the ToJ while all the madness ensues elsewhere's. Finally, Aerys becomes afraid and sends for his son. Rhaegar, being the dutiful guy he is heads back right away but insists that his three knights stay behind. Why? Well, he's quite confident of his victory and yet doesn't want some search party finding his trophy and wisking her away. Also, with Lyanna's "wild side" there is the risk of her escaping and his three knights would not be lax in their duties.

So, Rhaegar dies and the Targaryens are deposed. What do the three do now? They could flee with Viserys but that would be cowardly. However, someone will come looking for Lyanna eventually. So they wait, expecting Ned and Robert. Again, why? Well, if they could kill the Usurper and his friend then even if their own lives are lost it would give Viserys hope. More hope than he would have if they followed him across the sea.

So, IMO, that's why Ned found them waiting for him at the Toj. They were hoping to strike one final blow for the Targaryens but things didn't go as well as they planned.

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I've always pondered as to why the three Kingsguard remained at the ToJ after the Trident especially since do not subscribe to R + L = J. So this is what I came up with :)

Rhaegar kidnaps Lyanna. He flees back towards Kingslanding and gets his three Knights to accompany him to ToJ. Being that they are sworn to obey they went, although it's possible that they didn't like what was happening. Why would Aerys allow this? Well, at the time there was no conflict and therefore no reason to fear anything.

A good thought but inconsistant with what Jaime tells Catelyn at Riverrun. He claims that Hightower was at King's Landing when Ned's brother and father were killed (and told him not to judge Aerys, just obey). Rhaegar was already gone by then.

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So, Rhaegar and co. are at the ToJ while all the madness ensues elsewhere's. Finally, Aerys becomes afraid and sends for his son. Rhaegar, being the dutiful guy he is heads back right away but insists that his three knights stay behind. Why? Well, he's quite confident of his victory and yet doesn't want some search party finding his trophy and wisking her away. Also, with Lyanna's "wild side" there is the risk of her escaping and his three knights would not be lax in their duties.

Ignoring the factual errors of the timeline.

Considering the way the rebels had smacked up the loyalists all over the countryside that seems unlikely, never mind that Rhaegar hardly comes across as a boundless optimist in the books.

The latter part is also really strange, as Lord Commander, Hightower sits on the small council(the equivalent of a minister), some kingsguard are put in charge of armies. Rhaegar presumably have thousands of men at arms that could do him this service, why use these people in this critical time? It’s like sending the chief of the air force to bodyguard the vicepresidents mistress/sex slave in the middle of a war. First it’s really far out in his job description, second it should be a ludicrous waste of leadership ability.

If Rhaegar is really concerned about his victim escaping why not send her to King’s landing or Dragonstone?

They could flee with Viserys but that would be cowardly.

Rallying around the child king against the entire realm would be cowardly?

However, someone will come looking for Lyanna eventually. So they wait, expecting Ned and Robert. Again, why? Well, if they could kill the Usurper and his friend then even if their own lives are lost it would give Viserys hope. More hope than he would have if they followed him across the sea.

Viserys have no powerbase but his name, As far as Hightower knew Viserys could be sold to his enemies at any time, Yet he does nothing to protect him, but what is one dead king more or less to him anyway? :P Ned and Robert could have arrived with 200 men or more for all the kingsguard knew making this a very poor plan indeed. And even if they had managed to kill both Robert and Ned it wouldn’t have changed anything, the war was over and Jon Arryn was the architect of the rebellion, either he or Stannis would have taken the crown. Leaving Viserys at their mercy.

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Snake--Lyanna dies holding what is apparently the withered crown of love and beauty that Rhaegar gave her at Harrenhal. That doesn't sound like she's being held against her will or like she was trying to escape. Could be Stockholm Syndrome, I suppose--but Ned, who talked with her before she died and so probably knows how/why all this happened, never has a harsh thought about Rhaegar. I think he would if she told him she'd been kidnapped against her will, especially since she ended up dead.

Why would it be cowardly for the KG to flee with Viserys? Given that Rhaegar and Elia's children are dead, Viserys is the Targaryen heir unless R+L=married. I think supporting the heir would be the KG's job.

I do have a hard time thinking that Aerys would let 3 of his KG sit out the war with Rhaegar's girlfriend.

JaimeLannister, there's a theory that Aerys raped Lyanna (although I don't know when or where this is supposed to have been) and that she turned to Rhaegar for help. There's another that Robert raped her and she turned to Rhaegar for help. I don't think either of these makes a great deal of sense (why would she trust him, whom she barely knows, more than her family?), but they are theories about their relationship in which they're not sexually involved.

Good point, LordPiper.

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LPoP,

You're right. Forgot that little bit of info. So in light of that I'll suggest that Hightower was dispatched to find Rhaegar and then ordered to stay when Rhaegar departed.

JL,

We know Rhaegar was a prophecy nut. Had to have the third head and all that jazz. We also know that Elia was of delicate health and that her having a third child would have been dangerous. So, Rhaegar needs someone to impregnate. He sees Lyanna at Harenhall and notes her beauty and spirit and decides that she'll do just fine. He waits for his opportunity and takes her as she's departing for Riverrun. The rest is history.

Enguerrard,

Rhaegar told the Kingslayer that when he should return after defeating Robert on the Trident that he would deal with Aerys. Not the mind of a man expecting to lose. And no doubt he felt that his role in the fulfillment of the prophecy was not about to end. Rhaegar supposedly had a sense of doom about him but that could be because of his knowledge of the impending long night and what was waiting for the people in the future.

Rallying around Viserys would not have been cowardly but fleeing the Seven Realms would have been. Personally I think they were kind of lost and didn't know what to be doing.

If Robert could have been killed then a lot would have changed. He was the glue that kept the rebellion together. Not Ned and not Jon Arryn. Robert had the charisma that was needed. Eddard didn't have it and Jon didn't either. Stannis would have been rejected because of his attitude, as he has already been. If Robert had shown up with Ned and had been challenged to single combat, which he would have accepted, then things might have been different, although I really don't believe so. Personally, I think Robert would have killed any of the three awaiting at the ToJ but no doubt they felt the opposite.

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Considering the way the rebels had smacked up the loyalists all over the countryside that seems unlikely, never mind that Rhaegar hardly comes across as a boundless optimist in the books.

For what it's worth, I don't think the war was so lopsided as all that: SSM

The Targaryens had lost a number of battles (and had also won some), but they weren't really losing the war until the Trident and the Sack of King's Landing. And then it was lost.

I think we just tend to hear about Robert's great victories more.

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Rhaegar told the Kingslayer that when he should return after defeating Robert on the Trident that he would deal with Aerys. Not the mind of a man expecting to lose.

So he think the war is winnable, that is pretty much a must for a general. That is not to say that he is certain of victory that it’s reasonable to leave his best warriors where they can’t make any difference.

And no doubt he felt that his role in the fulfillment of the prophecy was not about to end.

What do you base this no doubt on?

Rallying around Viserys would not have been cowardly but fleeing the Seven Realms would have been.

I don’t know about that, Anyway it’s irrelevant since it’s not their concern. Their duty is to protect the king and die before harm comes to him.

Personally I think they were kind of lost and didn't know what to be doing.

Personally I’m amazed about how sure they are about themselves at the TOJ. They boast like there is no tomorrow, considering that virtually the entire royal family has been massacred without them lifting a finger in it’s defence and that Rhaella and Viserys are fleeing for their lives, you would expect them to be somewhat edgy and defensive.

If Robert could have been killed then a lot would have changed. He was the glue that kept the rebellion together. Not Ned and not Jon Arryn. Robert had the charisma that was needed. Eddard didn't have it and Jon didn't either.

What exactly do you base this on? Robert deferred to Jon Arryn throughout most of his life, Jon was the one who started the rebellion and was the brains of the outfit. He would most likely have become king if he wasn’t so old and heirless. Ned could also have become king as he admit to Cersie. Robert, with his charisma and birth was clearly the best choice, but I’ve read nothing to that indicates that the rebel faction would have fallen apart without him.

If Robert had shown up with Ned and had been challenged to single combat, which he would have accepted, then things might have been different, although I really don't believe so.

If they thought Robert would have accepted single combat why this elaborate ambush at the TOJ? They could have just ridden into his camp.

For what it's worth, I don't think the war was so lopsided as all that:

Yes I know, but Rhaegar was called up to assume command exactly because the situation had become critical. It would be really strange if he just expected the rebels to just roll over and die because he took the field.

“After dancing griffins lost the Battle of the Bells, Aerys exiled him.†Why am I telling this absurd ugly child? “He had finally realized that Robert was no mere outlaw lord to be crushed at whim, but the greatest threat House Targaryen had faced since Daemon Blackfyre. The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Domishmen coming up the kingsroad. Jon Darry and Barristan Selmy rode to Stoney Sept to rally what they could of griffins’ men, and Prince Rhaegar returned from the south and persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon my father.

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Shewoman,

Well, I don't think Ned had anything good to think about Rhaegar either. He doesn't seem to ever think that Rhaegars demise was unwarranted. He does however mention to Robert on how he avenged Lyanna on the Trident and he does think how there's nothing he can say against Robert's comment that a thousand deaths were less than Rhaegar deserved.

And all I can find about Lyanna is that she had rose petals in her hand when she died but perhaps I am missing something.

And I don't really think it would be cowardly if the Kingsguard had went with Viserys alhough I didn't make that clear above. It could be, however, that the Kingsguard felt that way.

Enguerrand,

While nothing is certain in war IMO what little evidence we have suggests that Rhaegar thought he was going to carry the day.

And the reason I doubt that Rhaegar thought he would lose is that he felt that baby Aegon was tPtWP. So if he thought he was going to lose he must have realized that his children's lives were in danger. The fact that he did nothing to remove them from harms way indicates, to me at least, that he thought he was going to win.

And Robert didn't defer to anyone. There were times when he could be reasoned with but if he wanted to do something he did it. That's how he indebted the realm so quickly, even though Jon Arryn tried to hold him in check. And Robert was the one everyone rallied around. True there was more than him leading the rebellion but it was all done in Robert's name. He had the best claim and men would follow him. The way he turned two enemies to his side is evidence of that. So once a leader is destroyed then the rest falter. That's what happened when Rhaegar fell on the Trident. Once he went down his army scattered. The same with Robb's demise. Cut off the head and the body dies.

Also, Ned could have claimed the throne but could he have held it? That's a different scenario altogether and I personally don't think he could have done so.

And it wasn't an elaborate ambush. They were waiting to see who came as they knew someone would. I don't think it's all that far fetched to assume that they were expecting Ned and perhaps Robert as well.

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