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The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread, Part II


Werthead

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They might not consider him the true king but they know full well that he is crowned and sits the Iron throne and that the realm has accepted it. So they are kingless in a sense and have entered new territory.

You seem to labour under the misconception that the king is chosen through a majority decision. That the rebels victory somehow invalidate the Targaryren claim. That might makes right. This is simply anathema to men of honour. And the dialogue at TOJ amply demonstrate it.

Ah, but those three didn't defect. They didn't serve under Robert so they never dishonored themselves there. And in the dream Ned asks them as to why they were not with the remaining royal family and they answered him.

If they don’t serve the Targaryen king anymore they have defected, if they don’t uphold their vows they are oath breakers, its quite simple IMO.

As they answer Ned, they are not with the rest of the royal family because they do not flee and have sworn an oath to protect the king’s life.

I dismiss it because I think if Rhaegar wanted her gone she would have been gone. He was melancholy and brooding but he was also determined and single-minded. IMO, when he set his mind to something there was little that would sway him.

You forgot dutiful, Rhaegar has to submit to his father command just like everybody else. Just as when he talks Jaime into staying, the king needs his security blankets.

What does the book say about it? I really cannot recall.

I referred to the TOJ scene that you dismissed.

If he would have known then he might have acted differently no doubt. Unfortunately for him and Dany hecouldn't see into the future.

Neither could Ser Willem Darry, that didn’t stop him from doing his duty despite never seeing any light at the end of the tunnel. Why would that be too much to ask of the guys who are supposed to be the epitome of fidelity in this world?

Besides, Aerys sent Ser Gerold, which was pointed out to me earlier, so he couldn't have felt the need for them at the time. He could have also sent for them when Rhaegar marched but he never did so i guess it can be assumed that he felt no dire need for them then either.

The only people that Aerys completely trusted were his kingsguard. It’s measure of his desperation that he detached all but one for frontline service. That he didn’t call them back might have been because he thought that they were keeping Rhaegar alive leading the loyalists in battle. I have great difficulty believing that he would have approved of them sitting at the sideline combing Lyanna’s hair in the hour of reckoning.

Not at the time they were ordered to stay. Everything was being dealt with accordingly and i'll again stress that Aerys couldn't have felt that threatened because he had ample time to summon the three.

The decision they took made them unable to fullfill their oath, so in hindsight it was obviously wrong. To accept that kind of exposure there have to have been a good reason, looking after/ restraining Lyanna just doesn’t cut it. And there is nothing that indicate that Aerys didn’t believe they were with Rhaegar fighting to preserve the Targaryen supremacy. After all that would be what (most) people would expect them to do.

Also Aerys must have felt secure with his goldcloaks and the Kingslayer which he thought kept him safe from Lord Tywin.

If you read the books more carefully, you will discover that secure isn’t an adjective that you easily can put on Aerys. The psychiatric term would be paranoid delusional. He lived in a state of abject terror and saw treason everywhere.

They did their duty as best they knew how. Was it right or wrong? I cannot answer that right now but somehow I think they did what they felt was the only honorable thing to do at the time.

Yes that is what I believe too, which would be guarding the king.

And that doesn't include dying for a king because the only king around was Robert and they died fighting his men, trying to erase the stain the Kingslayer left upon their order.

Wow. I’m going to burn the books if they turn out to be that dishonourable and pathetic.

I just wonder if milling around in the forest waiting to be put out of their misery is what a kingsguard is expected to do, why is Eddard asking the same questions that I do?

"I looked for you on the Trident,"

"We were not there,"

"When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were."

"Far away,"

"I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege," ,and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them."

"Our knees do not bend easily,"

"Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him."

"Ser Willem is a good man and true,"

Ned isn't saying: Aha! You were waiting for me and Robert to show up so that you could avenge the kings' death, I should have known, I salute you Sers, en garde!

Hardly to surprising (to me at least ) Ned expects the kingsguard to do their fucking job, and is confounded by the apparent neglect of their duties.

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Stratonice,

I didn't say they couldn't make up their minds, as they obviously did. What I'm saying is that they were lost as to what to do so they decide to stay at the ToJ knowing full well someone would eventually show up looking for Lyanna. And I don't think they act so superior. They're just talking trash, so to speak. Not being privy to their thoughts I can only guess that they felt rather ashamed of what happened. I would think they felt that they should have died alongside with Rhaegar or with Aerys but that didn't happen. And because the Kingsguard do not flee, "then or now", they waited at the ToJ.

You said they didn't know who the true King was and didn't want either of the available candidates since Viserys was Aerys son but showed signs of his madness too and Robert had been crowned but was a traitor.

But considering they call Willem Darry "a good man, and true" it's quite obvious they consider Viserys and Rhaella to be royalty still and that means it's their duty to protect them, not to hang around a castle in Dorne hoping that someone of importance eventually will find out they're there and show up to kill them. If what they wanted really was to die fighting superiour numbers, they chose a really strange place for it. Why not die holding Dragonstone to buy time for the escape of what remained of the royal family for instance???

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If what they wanted really was to die fighting superiour numbers, they chose a really strange place for it.
There it is again. They had to be at ToJ for some reason other than to die in battle. They were either there (1) because of what was in the ToJ, (2) to avoid being somewhere else (esp. KL), or (3) because they were ordered to be there. Death by battle could have been had anywhere.
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There it is again. They had to be at ToJ for some reason other than to die in battle. They were either there (1) because of what was in the ToJ, (2) to avoid being somewhere else (esp. KL), or (3) because they were ordered to be there. Death by battle could have been had anywhere.

Yes, more or less. However, (3) only works if they knew the King was safer than any action of theirs could make him. Viserys wasn't very safe at the moment so that would require Aegon to have survived AND those three KG to have been informed of the plot. Possible but not very likely. Unless, of course, they were deserters, but that doesn't fit with Ned's opinion of them.

And the problem with (2) is that "the Kingsguard does not flee" as they say themselves. That would be a very strange statement to make if that was exactly what they were doing there.

Based on the information we have right now, I have to go with (1) and can't think of anything beside royalty that could be there that the KG would die to deny Ned access to. Lyanna herself just isn't important enough, she doesn't even have much use as a hostage anymore (if she ever was one). The only (known) surviving Targs have already fled Westeros and the loyalists have already (or are about to) accept defeat so there's really nothing they could use her to bargain for except maybe their own lives and that's not what they do.

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Enguerrand,

You seem to labour under the misconception that the king is chosen through a majority decision. That the rebels victory somehow invalidate the Targaryren claim. That might makes right. This is simply anathema to men of honour. And the dialogue at TOJ amply demonstrate it.

The King is crowned and anointed and usually has the support of most of his nobles. Sure the Targaryens still had a claim to the the throne but Robert was King and not Viserys.

If they don’t serve the Targaryen king anymore they have defected, if they don’t uphold their vows they are oath breakers, its quite simple IMO.

As they answer Ned, they are not with the rest of the royal family because they do not flee and have sworn an oath to protect the king’s life.

They are serving out Rhaegar's last orders which IMO does not make them oathbreakers and there was no king to defend at the ToJ.

You forgot dutiful, Rhaegar has to submit to his father command just like everybody else. Just as when he talks Jaime into staying, the king needs his security blankets.

His duty did not interfer with his plans to remove his father from power and take his place after he had defeated Robert, or so he told the Kingslayer.

I referred to the TOJ scene that you dismissed.

I think we have wildly different interpretations of that scene.

Neither could Ser Willem Darry, that didn’t stop him from doing his duty despite never seeing any light at the end of the tunnel. Why would that be too much to ask of the guys who are supposed to be the epitome of fidelity in this world?

Ser Willem was not of the Kingsguard. The Kingsguard does not flee.

The only people that Aerys completely trusted were his kingsguard. It’s measure of his desperation that he detached all but one for frontline service. That he didn’t call them back might have been because he thought that they were keeping Rhaegar alive leading the loyalists in battle. I have great difficulty believing that he would have approved of them sitting at the sideline combing Lyanna’s hair in the hour of reckoning.

Rhaegar returned to Kingslanding before he went to the Trident so Aerys was quite aware that Hightower, Whent and Dayne were not with Rhaegar. How he felt about that I cannot say but it could not have troubled him much or else he would have sent for them to return.

The decision they took made them unable to fullfill their oath, so in hindsight it was obviously wrong. To accept that kind of exposure there have to have been a good reason, looking after/ restraining Lyanna just doesn’t cut it. And there is nothing that indicate that Aerys didn’t believe they were with Rhaegar fighting to preserve the Targaryen supremacy. After all that would be what (most) people would expect them to do.

The decision they took made them unable to fufill their oaths any way you cut it if I follow your line of reasoning. Babysitting Lyanna would have been wrong and babysitting a pregnant Lyanna would have been wrong. Either way, they were not with their king or his heir when they needed them most.

If you read the books more carefully, you will discover that secure isn’t an adjective that you easily can put on Aerys. The psychiatric term would be paranoid delusional. He lived in a state of abject terror and saw treason everywhere.

True. I'll rephrase and say that he musts of felt as secure as he possibly could, given his paranoia.

Yes that is what I believe too, which would be guarding the king.

What King? The only Targaryen with a claim to the throne was Viserys and he wasn't at the ToJ.

Wow. I’m going to burn the books if they turn out to be that dishonourable and pathetic.

I just wonder if milling around in the forest waiting to be put out of their misery is what a kingsguard is expected to do, why is Eddard asking the same questions that I do?

"I looked for you on the Trident,"

"We were not there,"

"When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were."

"Far away,"

"I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege," ,and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them."

"Our knees do not bend easily,"

"Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him."

"Ser Willem is a good man and true,"

Ned isn't saying: Aha! You were waiting for me and Robert to show up so that you could avenge the kings' death, I should have known, I salute you Sers, en garde!

Hardly to surprising (to me at least ) Ned expects the kingsguard to do their fucking job, and is confounded by the apparent neglect of their duties.

Eddard asked those questions because he was wondering why they were at the ToJ and he got his answers. And I don't think protecting Lyanna or a Lyanna pregnant with Rhaegars bastard love child is all that different really. They were still following through on their last orders which they had sworn to do. Much like Lord Beric continued to try and fulfill King Roberts final commands to him even though Robert was dead and another king on the throne.

Stratonice,

You said they didn't know who the true King was and didn't want either of the available candidates since Viserys was Aerys son but showed signs of his madness too and Robert had been crowned but was a traitor.

But considering they call Willem Darry "a good man, and true" it's quite obvious they consider Viserys and Rhaella to be royalty still and that means it's their duty to protect them, not to hang around a castle in Dorne hoping that someone of importance eventually will find out they're there and show up to kill them. If what they wanted really was to die fighting superiour numbers, they chose a really strange place for it. Why not die holding Dragonstone to buy time for the escape of what remained of the royal family for instance???

GRRM said that their vows didn't include what to do in a rebellion. In the DwD the Kingsguard split over who was entitled to the crown because they were not sure of who was actually king/queen. In this case we again have a problem because we have a deposed royal family and a new one. Ser barriston was also faced with this problem and he chose to serve under Robert rather than to flee to Viserys or die as one of Viserys Kingsguard. His reasons were given to Dany and there are very few, if any, who questioned his honor although he felt ashamed at having served with the likes of the Kingslayer.

So the three decided not to flee and I think they gave decent reasons as to why not. They were Kingsguard and the Kingsguard does not run. Also they swore a vow. IMO, the vow they talk of is the vow to obey. They were at the ToJ because of Rhaegars orders and they followed through with those orders knowing full well that someone was going to come looking for Lyanna. The rest is history.

And yes death by battle could have been had anywhere but if they left the ToJ then they would have been disregarding Rhaegars last orders.

Imean, if Jon is really R + L then he was still a bstard and had no claim before Viserys. Recall that Ned wonders why the gods give men such lusts if they frowns on bastards while he is thinking of Jon. IMO, this shows that Ned thinks of Jon as a bastard.

Even disregarding that and thinking Jon is Rhaegars trueborn son the three at the ToJ still let the King, his heir and his heir's heir dies while babysitting. So no matter how you cut it they did wrong unless you hold to the view that obeying Rhaegar's orders was their duty. That's the view I hold and that's why I think they were at the ToJ when Ned arrived.

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. . . the problem with (2) is that "the Kingsguard does not flee" as they say themselves. That would be a very strange statement to make if that was exactly what they were doing there.
I should have been more explicit. When I say they may have been motivated not to be at Kings Landing, I meant that they may have wanted an honorable way to let Aerys get killed. Had they been at KL, their presence might have saved him, which would have continued his madness. -- I don't know. It's hard to imagine them consciously deciding to try to lessen Aerys chance of survival. But, it's likewise hard to imagine these noble men standing by forever and letting Aerys continue his evil acts. OK, so Jamie broke first and switched from defending Aerys to defending the innocent. The idea of (2) is that maybe these three were trying to avoid facing the choice Jamie faced.
You seem to labour under the misconception that the king is chosen through a majority decision. That the rebels victory somehow invalidate the Targaryren claim. That might makes right. This is simply anathema to men of honour.
Isn't that the point of Varys's little parable to Tyrion about the sellsword, the septon, the king, and the rich man? That law derives from what the society thinks is the-right-thing-to-do?
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All the talk of the morality of Robert's Kingship is really irrelevant to this discussion. The issue is not whether the rest of society viewed Robert as legitimate but if the 3 most "honorable" of the Kings Guard viewed Rhaegar's child (and possibly heir) as worthy of protection and loyalty.

If Rhaegar and Lyanna were married the choice is obviously to protect the future king (Jon).If Jon's illegitimate the choice is more debatable but still I can see Rhaegar ordering the Kings Guard to protect his child in case he failed at the Trident. Rhaegar did not take more of the Kings Guard with him because he was one of the better fighters in the realm and had an army in addition to 3 other members of the Kings Guard.

Oh and snake this:

Imean, if Jon is really R + L then he was still a bstard and had no claim before Viserys. Recall that Ned wonders why the gods give men such lusts if they frowns on bastards while he is thinking of Jon. IMO, this shows that Ned thinks of Jon as a bastard.

Is not conclusive of anything because Ned was also thinking about Robert's bastards at the time. If Ned had any similar thoughts in other context about Jon or if he referred to Jon as his son or child you might be on to something but sadly we have nothing so concrete.

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Maybe,

I know we have nothing concrete but Ned thinking of Jon while thinking of bastards can be used to assume that Ned thinks Jon is a bastard. Again, I know it's conjecture but it's a helluva lot more concrete than some of the evidence used to back up some wacky theories that are out there.

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Sure the Targaryens still had a claim to the the throne but Robert was King and not Viserys.

Then why is Willem Darry a good man and TRUE? He is obviously not acknowledging Robert as king. If Robert is king, Darry should be a false knight.

His duty did not interfer with his plans to remove his father from power and take his place after he had defeated Robert, or so he told the Kingslayer.

Do you have any evidence that Rhaegar, at any time, defied his father to his face? Jaime gave the reason why Elia stayed in the Reed keep. You have supplied nothing but your own supposition that suggest otherwise.

The Kingsguard does not flee.

Doesn’t flee from what? Bumblebees? For a scene that you dismiss, you sure interpret the sentence as you will.

How he felt about that I cannot say but it could not have troubled him much or else he would have sent for them to return.

Or he might have thought that Rhaegar needed them more in the deceive battle. That’s certainly what I would have thought with no other information.

Eddard asked those questions because he was wondering why they were at the ToJ and he got his answers.

No he didn’t. He got cryptic one-liners with the implied message “wouldn’t you like to know.â€

And I don't think protecting Lyanna or a Lyanna pregnant with Rhaegars bastard love child is all that different really.

Of course not, which is why the child cannot be a bastard.

Also they swore a vow. IMO, the vow they talk of is the vow to obey.

Defend the king. Obey the king. Keep his secrets. Do his bidding. Your life for his.

Rhaegar was never king, this just doesn’t work.

Even disregarding that and thinking Jon is Rhaegars trueborn son the three at the ToJ still let the King, his heir and his heir's heir dies while babysitting.

It’s you who claim they were babysitting, I’m saying that they were “far away†doing something enormously important when the rest of the family got killed, THEN returned to the TOJ.

They were Kingsguard and the Kingsguard does not run.

Squire -Ser Gerold! Ser Gerold! his grace is being strangled by an assassin in his bedchamber!

Ser G -Well Prince Rhaegar told us to wait here in the solar until he was dressed, unless he personally tell us otherwise that is what we shall do.

Squire -But you are sworn to protect the king!

Ser G -That we are my boy, but his grace told us that we should do what Rhaegar said unless he countermand that order that it’s what we’ll do.

Squire -But surely he would want you to save his life!

Ser G -That is debatable, you can never really know with his grace.

The squire runs after Prince Rhaegar only to discover that he has been valiantly been cut down defending the gate house.

-Sers! the prince is dead and the king is screaming something terrible Please do something!

Ser G -Of course. Our path is clear, Prince Rhaegaer was the best of men, clearly we serve the King best by honouring his son's last request. Sooner or later some rebels will come to this chamber and then they will pay dearly for their infamy.

Whent: Well unless the High septon anoint one of the scuzballs then it’s not much we can do.

Squire -You’ll are going to stay in the antechamber while the castle falls, while the rebel kills us and rape the women?

The Sword of the Morning turn on the squire with a contemptuous look.

-The kingsguard doesn’t flee!

Whent -Then or now!

Squire -Uuum well..

Ser Gerold with a troubled voice:

- This is a most unfortunate chain of event lets hope that the next king will be more careful in the phrasing of his orders and never go mute.

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Isn't that the point of Varys's little parable to Tyrion about the sellsword, the septon, the king, and the rich man? That law derives from what the society thinks is the-right-thing-to-do?

Varys answered it himself. The point is that power resided were people believe it to reside.

In this case where do the Lord Commander of the kingsguard believe legitimacy lies?

The guy with the army(mights make right).

The septon(right derives from the gods).

the king (honour and fealty) .

or the rich man (money)?

Personally I think it’s rather easy.

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Then why is Willem Darry a good man and TRUE? He is obviously not acknowledging Robert as king. If Robert is king, Darry should be a false knight.

Because he didn't bend the knee and serve Robert but he was not of the Kingsguard. The Kingsguard, in their opinion did not run. They stayed and did their duty.

Do you have any evidence that Rhaegar, at any time, defied his father to his face? Jaime gave the reason why Elia stayed in the Reed keep. You have supplied nothing but your own supposition that suggest otherwise.

Do you have any evidence that he didn't? King Aerys reminded Prince Lewyn while Rhagar was away. If Rhaegar really thought Aegon, the PwwP, was in danger do you think he would have left him there?

Doesn’t flee from what? Bumblebees? For a scene that you dismiss, you sure interpret the sentence as you will.

They do not flee from their duties. In my scenario Rhaegar left them with orders to make sure Lyanna stayed where she was. So that's what they aimed to do knowing that Ned or Robert would show up looking for her.

Or he might have thought that Rhaegar needed them more in the deceive battle. That’s certainly what I would have thought with no other information.

Rhaegar went to Kingslanding before the Trident. Do you think he never went to see his father? Do you think that Aerys did not know that three of his Kingsguard were nowhere near? I think that's a stretch to put it mildly.

No he didn’t. He got cryptic one-liners with the implied message “wouldn’t you like to know.â€

So from these cryptic one liners you conclude that they were away on some secret mission and just returned in order to try and save Rhaegars true born son from Lord Eddards wrath. Interesting.

Of course not, which is why the child cannot be a bastard.

You seem so certain. Have any evidence to support your claim?

Defend the king. Obey the king. Keep his secrets. Do his bidding. Your life for his.

Rhaegar was never king, this just doesn’t work.

So they were at the ToJ and elsewhere on Aerys orders?

It’s you who claim they were babysitting, I’m saying that they were “far away†doing something enormously important when the rest of the family got killed, THEN returned to the TOJ.

Interesting theory but it's not one I subscribe to. Basically I think they were guarding Lyanna from rescue and tried to do just that.

Your little "scenario" was cute but does little to shine any light on the situation. I'm of the opinion that the three were given orders and did their best to follow through on those orders. That's why they were at the ToJ and that's why they didn't flee or bend the knee.

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Stratonice,

GRRM said that their vows didn't include what to do in a rebellion. In the DwD the Kingsguard split over who was entitled to the crown because they were not sure of who was actually king/queen. In this case we again have a problem because we have a deposed royal family and a new one. Ser barriston was also faced with this problem and he chose to serve under Robert rather than to flee to Viserys or die as one of Viserys Kingsguard. His reasons were given to Dany and there are very few, if any, who questioned his honor although he felt ashamed at having served with the likes of the Kingslayer.

The fact that they consider Willem Darry to be a "good man, and true" for getting Viserys away clearly indicate that they consider him to be royalty. If Robert is the true King, then aiding Viserys is treason.

The difference between these three and Barristan is that the latter was injured at the Trident. Once he recovered, Viserys was long gone, everything was over, he was in the hands of the rebells and he was offered a pardon. The three at the ToJ were alive and well and could easily (and should have) gone with him right then. They were never offered any pardons either. I guess Barristan could have refused the pardon and died as a traitor once he recovered, so the point is taken, but their situations were not really the same.

So the three decided not to flee and I think they gave decent reasons as to why not. They were Kingsguard and the Kingsguard does not run. Also they swore a vow. IMO, the vow they talk of is the vow to obey. They were at the ToJ because of Rhaegars orders and they followed through with those orders knowing full well that someone was going to come looking for Lyanna. The rest is history.

Except that the duty to keep the King safe is the very reason for the KG's existence and they're sworn to the King. With that in mind, surely keeping the King safe is a more important duty than obeying an order from the dead prince to keep a girl locked up in a tower in the middle of nowhere and for no apparent reason.

And yes death by battle could have been had anywhere but if they left the ToJ then they would have been disregarding Rhaegars last orders.

But if they stayed they endangered the Kings life.

Imean, if Jon is really R + L then he was still a bstard and had no claim before Viserys. Recall that Ned wonders why the gods give men such lusts if they frowns on bastards while he is thinking of Jon. IMO, this shows that Ned thinks of Jon as a bastard.

Even disregarding that and thinking Jon is Rhaegars trueborn son the three at the ToJ still let the King, his heir and his heir's heir dies while babysitting. So no matter how you cut it they did wrong unless you hold to the view that obeying Rhaegar's orders was their duty. That's the view I hold and that's why I think they were at the ToJ when Ned arrived.

The only two ways I can see that obeying Rhaegar's orders at that time would be their duty is if 1) it was Rhaegar's trueborn son in that tower or 2) someone succeeded in smuggling Aegon out, they knew it and he was safer if they stayed away (since everyone conveniantly thinks him dead). If neither of these are true, then they didn't do their duty which is to keep the King safe.

True, Aerys, Rhaegar and (most likely) Aegon were all killed, but they were not left without KG, those KG died or were injured to protect the prince. (With the exception of Jaime, but then he's not held in high esteem by Ned as the others are.) If the point simply was to keep Lyanna (without any royalty involved) locked up, why was she held at the ToJ in the first place? Why not KL or Dragonstone? And more importantly, why would KG be needed for that? It doesn't make any sense.

I should have been more explicit. When I say they may have been motivated not to be at Kings Landing, I meant that they may have wanted an honorable way to let Aerys get killed. Had they been at KL, their presence might have saved him, which would have continued his madness. -- I don't know. It's hard to imagine them consciously deciding to try to lessen Aerys chance of survival. But, it's likewise hard to imagine these noble men standing by forever and letting Aerys continue his evil acts. OK, so Jamie broke first and switched from defending Aerys to defending the innocent. The idea of (2) is that maybe these three were trying to avoid facing the choice Jamie faced.

Except that it still doesn't explain why they were in Dorne at that time instead of at Dragonstone with Viserys.

I can see them supporting Rhaegar in having his father deposed for that reason, but I'm having a hard time seeing how it fits with abandoning the entire royal family in a time of great need.

Squire -Ser Gerold! Ser Gerold! his grace is being strangled by an assassin in his bedchamber!

Ser G -Well Prince Rhaegar told us to wait here in the solar until he was dressed, unless he personally tell us otherwise that is what we shall do.

Squire -But you are sworn to protect the king!

Ser G -That we are my boy, but his grace told us that we should do what Rhaegar said unless he countermand that order that it’s what we’ll do.

Squire -But surely he would want you to save his life!

Ser G -That is debatable, you can never really know with his grace.

The squire runs after Prince Rhaegar only to discover that he has been valiantly been cut down defending the gate house.

-Sers! the prince is dead and the king is screaming something terrible Please do something!

Ser G -Of course. Our path is clear, Prince Rhaegaer was the best of men, clearly we serve the King best by honouring his son's last request. Sooner or later some rebels will come to this chamber and then they will pay dearly for their infamy.

Whent: Well unless the High septon anoint one of the scuzballs then it’s not much we can do.

Squire -You’ll are going to stay in the antechamber while the castle falls, while the rebel kills us and rape the women?

The Sword of the Morning turn on the squire with a contemptuous look.

-The kingsguard doesn’t flee!

Whent -Then or now!

Squire -Uuum well..

Ser Gerold with a troubled voice:

- This is a most unfortunate chain of event lets hope that the next king will be more careful in the phrasing of his orders and never go mute.

:rofl: That's the funniest thing I've read in a long time. I can really picture the scene...

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Varys answered it himself. The point is that power resided were people believe it to reside.

In this case where do the Lord Commander of the kingsguard believe legitimacy lies?

The guy with the army(mights make right).

The septon(right derives from the gods).

the king (honour and fealty) .

or the rich man (money)?

Personally I think it’s rather easy.

I think the fact that it's not easy is the point of the whole Mad Aerys story. That story is driven by the conflict between honourable behavior and fealty. 'Do we continue to support our sworn king when he is doing evil?'

One rationalization to get out of this dilemma is to find something other than guarding the king that fulfills their oaths. Apparently, being at the ToJ was such a duty.

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The fact that they consider Willem Darry to be a "good man, and true" for getting Viserys away clearly indicate that they consider him to be royalty. If Robert is the true King, then aiding Viserys is treason.

The difference between these three and Barristan is that the latter was injured at the Trident. Once he recovered, Viserys was long gone, everything was over, he was in the hands of the rebells and he was offered a pardon. The three at the ToJ were alive and well and could easily (and should have) gone with him right then. They were never offered any pardons either. I guess Barristan could have refused the pardon and died as a traitor once he recovered, so the point is taken, but their situations were not really the same.

IMO, they consider Ser Willem a man who did his duty just as they are doing theirs by fulfilling Rhaegars last commands. Recall how Ser Barrisaton was shocked that Cersei would tear up Roberts last commands. For me this illustrates that the last commands given to the Kingsguard are still to be carried out even if the one how gave those commands were dead.

Except that the duty to keep the King safe is the very reason for the KG's existence and they're sworn to the King. With that in mind, surely keeping the King safe is a more important duty than obeying an order from the dead prince to keep a girl locked up in a tower in the middle of nowhere and for no apparent reason.

Their king was dead so they were in a difficult situation. Would they flee with Viserys knowing he was a lot like his father? How could they remain true to their vows and yet not serve another mad king? Well, I think they believed that fulfilling their last orders was a honorable way out.

But if they stayed they endangered the Kings life.

Which king? Aerys or are you refering to Viserys? Aerys was already dead and in my scenario I already explained above as to why they never went with Viserys.

The only two ways I can see that obeying Rhaegar's orders at that time would be their duty is if 1) it was Rhaegar's trueborn son in that tower or 2) someone succeeded in smuggling Aegon out, they knew it and he was safer if they stayed away (since everyone conveniantly thinks him dead). If neither of these are true, then they didn't do their duty which is to keep the King safe.

True, Aerys, Rhaegar and (most likely) Aegon were all killed, but they were not left without KG, those KG died or were injured to protect the prince. (With the exception of Jaime, but then he's not held in high esteem by Ned as the others are.) If the point simply was to keep Lyanna (without any royalty involved) locked up, why was she held at the ToJ in the first place? Why not KL or Dragonstone? And more importantly, why would KG be needed for that? It doesn't make any sense.

Well, I think they did their duty and I don't think there was any king near the three. As for them being there not making any sense, well perhaps you're right but if Rhaegar wanted them there and Aerys did not object then there they would be. If their duty was to protect the King and only the King then they would have never left Kingslanding in the first place.

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Do you have any evidence that he didn't? King Aerys reminded Prince Lewyn while Rhagar was away. If Rhaegar really thought Aegon, the PwwP, was in danger do you think he would have left him there?

“Rhaegar met Robert on the Trident, and you know what happened there. When the word reached court, Aerys packed the queen off to Dragonstone with Prince Viserys. Princess Elia would have gone as well, but he forbade it. Somehow he had gotten it in his head that Prince Lewyn must have betrayed Rhaegar on the Trident, but he thought he could keep Dome loyal so long as he kept Elia and Aegon by his side.

Well it was after Rhaegar’s death so it’s doesn’t say either way what Rhaegar wishes where. But clearly Aerys wanted them close by even before the Trident. and I see nothing that would allow Rhaegar to overrule his father if that was Aerys desire. Most likely Rhaegar considered King’s Landing a relative safe place for them anyway. As you can see nothing would have stopped them from being sent to Dragonstone if the king so had wished.

Do you think that Aerys did not know that three of his Kingsguard were nowhere near? I think that's a stretch to put it mildly.

I think he assumed that Rhaegar used them in a reasonable capacity or that Rhaegar told him words to that effect, I see no stretch whatsoever.

So from these cryptic one liners you conclude that they were away on some secret mission and just returned in order to try and save Rhaegars true born son from Lord Eddards wrath. Interesting.

That and what we know of the kingsguard, Westerosi law and culture and the general background. And it happens to be the most dramatic story too.

You seem so certain. Have any evidence to support your claim?

I’ve supplied you with plenty of evidence. None conclusive however. My certainty comes from Sherlock Holmes adage 'When you eliminate the impossible, whatever you have left, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.I have yet see another theory that possibly could account for these events. So therefore it stands.

So they were at the ToJ and elsewhere on Aerys orders?

No, I don’t think so, other then the general detachment order they been given. They are doing something Rhaegar told them to do, that he convinced them was so important that it merited them not being with him at the Trident and accepting a relative exposure of the king.

Your little "scenario" was cute but does little to shine any light on the situation.

Sorry but to me this is YOUR scenario, the Kingsguard would pointlessly stick to the letter rather then the spirit of their vows dodging all responsibility, making certain they did nothing of consequence, for no apparent reason. Not even vanity since it would just make them look asinine and pitiful.

Care to pick it apart and telling me what I got wrong?

IMO, they consider Ser Willem a man who did his duty just as they are doing theirs by fulfilling Rhaegars last commands. Recall how Ser Barrisaton was shocked that Cersei would tear up Roberts last commands.

Except once again that Rhaegar was never king and that they accepted to be overruled by Cersie anyway and the small detail that the last command didn’t make them unable to protect the royal family from clear and present danger.

Their king was dead so they were in a difficult situation. Would they flee with Viserys knowing he was a lot like his father? How could they remain true to their vows and yet not serve another mad king?

The kingsguard do not judge the king, they obey him. Nothing that I know of these three indicate that they expressed any concern about serving a mad king.

In Jaime’s fever dream he didn’t expect the them to consider the burning of kings landing as a mitigating factor for the kingslaying.

“We all swore oaths,†said Ser Arthur Dayne, so sadly.

The shades dismounted from their ghostly horses. When they drew their longswords, it made not a sound. “He was going to burn the city,†Jaime said. “To leave Robert only ashes.â€

“He was your king,†said Darry.

“You swore to keep him safe,†said Whent.

“And the children, them as well,†said Prince Lewyn.

Your Kingsguard has no regard for the royal family, Hightower have seen Rhaella grow from a baby to his living breathing queen yet are more concerned with dead Rhaegar outdated order that can serve no purpose then keeping her alive.

It’s just not isn’t possible. It would require a character assassination of the three greatest knights in Westeros.

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Snake,

It seems we won't get much further on this subject. You think it makes sense for them to be there without any royalty involved (beside Rhaegar's orders), I don't. We've been over the arguments for and against several times now so let's just drop it. It doesn't seem like we're going to agree on this matter until we have more evidence one way or the other.

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Stratonice,

Fair enough. I just hope we get a little more info in the next book. Perhaps we'll learn more about what Rhaegar was actually like and maybe Lyanna as well. Knowing GRRM any info will probably make the divide even wider. :)

Enguerrand,

“Rhaegar met Robert on the Trident, and you know what happened there. When the word reached court, Aerys packed the queen off to Dragonstone with Prince Viserys. Princess Elia would have gone as well, but he forbade it. Somehow he had gotten it in his head that Prince Lewyn must have betrayed Rhaegar on the Trident, but he thought he could keep Dome loyal so long as he kept Elia and Aegon by his side.

Well it was after Rhaegar’s death so it’s doesn’t say either way what Rhaegar wishes where. But clearly Aerys wanted them close by even before the Trident. and I see nothing that would allow Rhaegar to overrule his father if that was Aerys desire. Most likely Rhaegar considered King’s Landing a relative safe place for them anyway. As you can see nothing would have stopped them from being sent to Dragonstone if the king so had wished.

So you agree that Rhaegar thought his wife and children were relatively safe at Kingslanding? That's all I was saying. From that I reasoned that he must have felt confident of victory.

I think he assumed that Rhaegar used them in a reasonable capacity or that Rhaegar told him words to that effect, I see no stretch whatsoever.

So the dutiful Rhaegar might have lied to his father in order to keep the three Kingsguard doing his own wishes? Quite possible with the Rhaegar I envision so I'll give you that one.

That and what we know of the kingsguard, Westerosi law and culture and the general background. And it happens to be the most dramatic story too.

It would be a more dramatic storyline 'tis true and from what I think of the Kingsguards duties it could be well and true. However, you are the one who suggested that their duty is to the King and not to be roaming the world over while the Kings throne is in peril from rebels. So how do you explain why they would leave the realm when Robert was attempting to overthrow Aerys?

I’ve supplied you with plenty of evidence. None conclusive however. My certainty comes from Sherlock Holmes adage 'When you eliminate the impossible, whatever you have left, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.I have yet see another theory that possibly could account for these events. So therefore it stands.

PLenty of conjecture is more like it. Neither of has any proof, just wild theories we came up with from about a dozen sentences in the text. And what you consider impossible I consider quite possible.

No, I don’t think so, other then the general detachment order they been given. They are doing something Rhaegar told them to do, that he convinced them was so important that it merited them not being with him at the Trident and accepting a relative exposure of the king.

See, here we are not that different. You think they obeyed Rhaegar because he convinced them of some dire need of his that required them to be away. I think they just obeyed Rhaegar when they had no orders from Aerys to the contrary.

Sorry but to me this is YOUR scenario, the Kingsguard would pointlessly stick to the letter rather then the spirit of their vows dodging all responsibility, making certain they did nothing of consequence, for no apparent reason. Not even vanity since it would just make them look asinine and pitiful.

Care to pick it apart and telling me what I got wrong?

What you got wrong was suggesting the three knew that Aerys was in mortal danger. They did not know this and could not have known this. Once they found out what fate had befell Rhaegar they were too far away to be of any aid to Aerys. No doubt they wish they had been but that was not how things played out.

Except once again that Rhaegar was never king and that they accepted to be overruled by Cersie anyway and the small detail that the last command didn’t make them unable to protect the royal family from clear and present danger.

Rhaegar was a royal and therefore was to be obeyed. On that I am certain. Now, whetheror not they could disobey him if they felt the King was at risk is another story. Perhaps, but if that's how they felt then they failed in their duty and broke their vows no matter how you cut it. I personally don't think they felt that way at the time.

The kingsguard do not judge the king, they obey him. Nothing that I know of these three indicate that they expressed any concern about serving a mad king.

In Jaime’s fever dream he didn’t expect the them to consider the burning of kings landing as a mitigating factor for the kingslaying.

“We all swore oaths,†said Ser Arthur Dayne, so sadly.

The shades dismounted from their ghostly horses. When they drew their longswords, it made not a sound. “He was going to burn the city,†Jaime said. “To leave Robert only ashes.â€

“He was your king,†said Darry.

“You swore to keep him safe,†said Whent.

“And the children, them as well,†said Prince Lewyn.

Your Kingsguard has no regard for the royal family, Hightower have seen Rhaella grow from a baby to his living breathing queen yet are more concerned with dead Rhaegar outdated order that can serve no purpose then keeping her alive.

It’s just not isn’t possible. It would require a character assassination of the three greatest knights in Westeros

It's quite possible of course. Ser Barriston knew Arys was mad and took Roberts pardon rather than flee to Viserys. No doubt all of Aerys seven were disgusted with him in the end but they were going to do their duty with regards to him. However, once he fell and was replaced there was a chance out with honor, and IMO they took it. That would entail not serving the Usurper and following the last orders they received from Rhaegar.

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Stratonice,

Fair enough. I just hope we get a little more info in the next book. Perhaps we'll learn more about what Rhaegar was actually like and maybe Lyanna as well. Knowing GRRM any info will probably make the divide even wider. :)

Yes, I hope so too. And you're probably right. Until the truth of what actually happened is revealed any bits of information we get does seem likely to confuse matters further for us. But that's what makes it interesting after all. :)

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So you agree that Rhaegar thought his wife and children were relatively safe at Kingslanding? That's all I was saying. From that I reasoned that he must have felt confident of victory.

Look I don't understand you at all. :huh:

To you it was an unsafe place and therefore a sign of confidence to keep them there but now you agree with me that it was safe but it’s still a sign of confidence?

To me, Kings’ Landing was as safe as any place in the seven kingdoms with the possible exception of Dragonstone and the family could have been sent there had things deteriorated further.

I suppose that they could have tried hiding under a rock, but that would look desperate, leave things to chance and would also be a blow to loyalist morale.

Had Rhaegar taken them with him to the battlefield you might have had a point.

And, I just showed you, it’s quite likely that Rhaegar had little say in where his family went, thereby making this line of reasoning futile.

So how do you explain why they would leave the realm when Robert was attempting to overthrow Aerys?

That something truly convinced them Aerys and his dynasty had a better chance of survival if they did so.

You think they obeyed Rhaegar because he convinced them of some dire need of his that required them to be away. I think they just obeyed Rhaegar when they had no orders from Aerys to the contrary.

To the kingguard the kings life is their paramount concern, to accept to be unable to respond too threat to his life require something extraordinary, there is nothing extraordinary about guarding Lyanna that I can see. Whether she was willing or not.

Once they found out what fate had befell Rhaegar they were too far away to be of any aid to Aerys. No doubt they wish they had been but that was not how things played out.

And yet they knew they were in a civil war in which the loyalist had suffered a disastrous defeat. If Rhaegar didn’t prevail anything could happen. Yet they accept to be placed in a situation where they cannot respond to change in threat level for a duty that is an apparent misuse of their talents.

Now, whetheror not they could disobey him if they felt the King was at risk is another story. Perhaps, but if that's how they felt then they failed in their duty and broke their vows no matter how you cut it.

They failed in their primary duty yes, but I believe they had a good reason for doing so.

They would only be breaking their vows if they genuinly hadn’t done everything in their power to keep the royal family alive.

It's quite possible of course. Ser Barriston knew Arys was mad and took Roberts pardon rather than flee to Viserys.

Yes but these three calls Robert "the usurper". They call their brothers in arms that continue to serve the Targaryens "true". Not even Barristan had at this time defected.

However, once he fell and was replaced there was a chance out with honor, and IMO they took it.

I think here is where we disagree. That finding a chance to hide behind a technicality has something to do with honour. To someone who lives for honour and duty it is always the spirit that matters and such a individual never consider the price to himself.

If I understand you, You think the kingsguard gets out jail by not accepting Viserys as king because the rebels has anointed Robert.(never mind that they call him an usurper, implying illegitmacy). Where they to believe that Robert was king they would be duty bound to serve him so this just cannot be the case.

Why take such a blatant pride in being the kingsguard if they have no king no serve?

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Look I don't understand you at all.

To you it was an unsafe place and therefore a sign of confidence to keep them there but now you agree with me that it was safe but it’s still a sign of confidence?

To me, Kings’ Landing was as safe as any place in the seven kingdoms with the possible exception of Dragonstone and the family could have been sent there had things deteriorated further.

I suppose that they could have tried hiding under a rock, but that would look desperate, leave things to chance and would also be a blow to loyalist morale.

Had Rhaegar taken them with him to the battlefield you might have had a point.

And, I just showed you, it’s quite likely that Rhaegar had little say in where his family went, thereby making this line of reasoning futile

What I'm saying is that Kingslanding is not a notably secure place. The Imp and Cersei both say this in ACoK. It's hard to defend and there are a lot of other castles in the realm that are stronger. IMO, the fact that Rhaegar felt his family was safe there indicates he was confident of victory.

That something truly convinced them Aerys and his dynasty had a better chance of survival if they did so.

You see, this I do noy buy. I'm not saying it's not possible. If Rhaegar commanded them to do something I'm sure they would do it, but I do not believe they were away on some fact finding mission outside of Westeros.

To the kingguard the kings life is their paramount concern, to accept to be unable to respond too threat to his life require something extraordinary, there is nothing extraordinary about guarding Lyanna that I can see. Whether she was willing or not.

There is nothing extraordinary about being sent on a wild goosechase either. If they did have some errand to run for Rhaegar it was not anything worthwhile because we all no Rhaegar was dead wrong as far as his interpretation of the prophecy.

And yet they knew they were in a civil war in which the loyalist had suffered a disastrous defeat. If Rhaegar didn’t prevail anything could happen. Yet they accept to be placed in a situation where they cannot respond to change in threat level for a duty that is an apparent misuse of their talents.

They knew they were in a civil war in either case. They accepted to be placed in a compromising position no matter how you look at it. No matter what the scenario, they failed in whatever they were attempting to do. They should have been at the Trident or at Kingslanding but instead wer someplace else. I contend they were at the ToJ guarding Lyanna as ordered by Rhaegar.

They failed in their primary duty yes, but I believe they had a good reason for doing so.

They would only be breaking their vows if they genuinly hadn’t done everything in their power to keep the royal family alive.

And what had they done to keep the royal family alive? IMO, following the orders of Rhaegar would have not meant they were breaking their vows.

Yes but these three calls Robert "the usurper". They call their brothers in arms that continue to serve the Targaryens "true". Not even Barristan had at this time defected.

They did this, IMO, because of the fact that they were not present when Aerys fell and the Targaryens were deposed. I think they were ashamed at having not been there and felt the need to do something to wipe out the stain of what the Kingslayer did. You see, I don't think Ser Barriston did anything wrong when he bent the knee to Robert although I do think he was right to be ashamed at having served with the Kingslayer. I think the Kingsguard are sworn to the king and when Ser Barriston awoke Robert was king in the eyes of the realm.

I think here is where we disagree. That finding a chance to hide behind a technicality has something to do with honour. To someone who lives for honour and duty it is always the spirit that matters and such a individual never consider the price to himself.

If I understand you, You think the kingsguard gets out jail by not accepting Viserys as king because the rebels has anointed Robert.(never mind that they call him an usurper, implying illegitmacy). Where they to believe that Robert was king they would be duty bound to serve him so this just cannot be the case.

Why take such a blatant pride in being the kingsguard if they have no king no serve?

But it does have to do with honor. They were trying to show that they were not like the Kingslayer. That they would remain true to their vows and follow through with their orders even though all was lost. You see Robert was an Usurper and he was also the accepted King of Westeros. Not having the precedent of past succesful rebellions to go by the three had a choice to make. Flee to Viserys, bend the knee to Robert or carry out their final orders. I think they chose the last and I gave reasons before as to why I think they did.

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