The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread, Part II

[Enguerrand]

IMO, the fact that Rhaegar felt his family was safe there indicates he was confident of victory.

I bring up the quotes that indicate otherwise, but you still claim factual knowledge of Rhaegar’s mind. I think we are done.

I do not believe they were away on some fact finding mission outside of Westeros.

Your opinion isn’t an argument. And what exactly they were doing isn't determined.

There is nothing extraordinary about being sent on a wild goosechase either.

Goosechase is your word not mine.

If they did have some errand to run for Rhaegar it was not anything worthwhile because we all no Rhaegar was dead wrong as far as his interpretation of the prophecy.

First it only require that they would believe the king and his family stood to gain by fulfilling this quest. Secondly nothing stops Rhaegar from gotten it mostly right. Prophepcy is a tricky thing and Barristan said that there was always a sense of doom about Rhaegar. Perhaps he knew what price he eventually had to pay to bring it about.

They knew they were in a civil war in either case. They accepted to be placed in a compromising position no matter how you look at it.

Yes and I contend that they needed to have had a very good reason for this. I can’t see how guarding Lyanna would increase the likelyhood for the victory, over other actions they could have taken, or decreased the threat to Aerys life.

And what had they done to keep the royal family alive?

Nothing as far as we know, which is what this discussion is about.

I think they were ashamed at having not been there and felt the need to do something to wipe out the stain of what the Kingslayer did.

And yet their every sentence at TOJ breath immense pride. There is no shame or contrition there at all. They even have the stomach to thrash talk the loyalists that actually were fightning.

You see, I don't think Ser Barriston did anything wrong when he bent the knee to Robert

I suppose it depends on who you ask, He himself admit treason and his only defense is that he isn’t the only one who should die a traitors death.

I think the Kingsguard are sworn to the king and when Ser Barriston awoke Robert was king in the eyes of the realm.

That obviously wasn’t how Hightower, Dayne, and Whent saw it. I see no reason to take your opinion on the kingsguards obligations over theirs.

You see Robert was an Usurper and he was also the accepted King of Westeros. Not having the precedent of past succesful rebellions to go by the three had a choice to make. Flee to Viserys, bend the knee to Robert or carry out their final orders.

Well if this make sense to you, then I guess we don’t have much more to discuss.

[snake]

I bring up the quotes that indicate otherwise, but you still claim factual knowledge of Rhaegar’s mind. I think we are done.

I only go by what the Kingslayer recalled as his final conversation with Rhaegar. If you want to dismiss that I suppose there's nothing I can say to change your mind.

Your opinion isn’t an argument. And what exactly they were doing isn't determined.

If they were doing anything at all, which has yet to be determined. And opinion is all any of us has to go on.

Well if this make sense to you, then I guess we don’t have much more to discuss.

I guess you are right. We'll have to wait until future books for new info to show that I'm right.

[Shewoman]

I don't think Lyanna was afraid of what Ned might do to her child. I doubt that she expected to see him, since she was apparently in hiding. I think her relief at his making her the promises she wants is not "Oh, good; my brother won't kill my kid after all" but rather "Oh, good; my brother will raise/hide/protect my kid." (We don't know exactly what the promises entailed, but Ned does think about how he's lied for 14 years to keep them).

[Katrover Swatroad]

I had a sudden thought last night.

I hate to digress, but while re-reading Thrones, I came across this: "Whoever Jon's mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely." (A Game of Thrones, 65 - 66 in paperback).

Ned mentions Wylla once, and doesn't think of Ashara at all throughout Thrones .... but it is obvious he loves Lyanna very much. He brings flowers to her crypt, he has flashbacks about her, he thinks about her last words, etc.

So Catelyn is right about Ned loving Jon's mother, just mistaken about the sense; it is familial, not sensual.

[Shewoman]

Yes, although what Catelyn means is that Ned must have loved Jon's mother more than he loves her since he's keeping her identity secret.

[llwyd]

Moved this post to the feminism thread. Am not as far advanced as to have strong positions on the genealogy issues...

[reyjin]

Well, I was just thinking - if the 3 KG were at the ToJ, is it possible they didn't get word of things until they had already gone pretty far south (no pun intended)? If that were the case, the difficulty of just getting to Dragonstone would have been pretty prohibitive...

I haven't read GoT in quite a while (guess I'll start that again now), but, for some reason, I entertained the possibility that Ned had actually broken whtever promise he made to Lyanna (I know he laments the promise, and thinks of the sacrifices he has made, but I don't remember him explicitly stating that he did what she asked)... Thus (assuming R+L=J), either not supporting the child for the throne [she loved Rhaegar and married him] or not killing the child [she was raped and couldn't bear the thought of the child surviving]. Or, of course, something completely different (those were just the two ideas I have been kicking around). And, if there is no child of Lyana, then the Seven only know what the promise was.

[chewietobbacca]

Well, I was just thinking - if the 3 KG were at the ToJ, is it possible they didn't get word of things until they had already gone pretty far south (no pun intended)? If that were the case, the difficulty of just getting to Dragonstone would have been pretty prohibitive...

I haven't read GoT in quite a while (guess I'll start that again now), but, for some reason, I entertained the possibility that Ned had actually broken whtever promise he made to Lyanna (I know he laments the promise, and thinks of the sacrifices he has made, but I don't remember him explicitly stating that he did what she asked)... Thus (assuming R+L=J), either not supporting the child for the throne [she loved Rhaegar and married him] or not killing the child [she was raped and couldn't bear the thought of the child surviving]. Or, of course, something completely different (those were just the two ideas I have been kicking around). And, if there is no child of Lyana, then the Seven only know what the promise was.

I think getting to Dragonstone would have been pretty prohibitive at that point - it was too close to KL and the chances you could catch a ship to Dragonstone on a boat in the midst of a war and not be noticed is basically not going to happen.

As far as the passage goes, my translation goes:

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.

In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life, Martyn Cassel, Jory's father; faithful Theo Wull; Ethan Glover, who had been his brother Brandon's squire; Ser Mark Ryswell, soft of speech and gentle of heart; the crannogman, Howland Reed; and Lord Dustin on his great red stallion. Ned had known their faces as well as he knew his own once, but the years leech at a man's memories, even those he has vowed never to forget. In the dream they were only shadows, grey wraiths on horses made of mist.

They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life. Yet these were no ordinary three. They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind. These were no shadows, their faces burned clear, even now. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a sad smile on his lips. The hilt of his greatsword Dawn poked up over his right shoulder. Ser Oswell Whent was on one knee, sharpening his blade with a whetstone. Across his white enameled helm, the black bat of his House spread its wings. Between them stood fierce old Ser Gerold Hightower, the White Bull, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.

"I looked for you on the Trident," Ned said to them.

"We were not there," Ser Gerold answered.

"Woe to the Usurper if we had been," added Ser Oswell.

"When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were."

"Far away," Ser Gerold said, "or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells."

"I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege," Ned told them, "and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them."

"Our knees do not bend easily," said Ser Arthur Dayne.

"Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him."

"Ser Willem is a good man, and true," said Ser Oswell.

"But not of the Kingsguard," Ser Gerold pointed out. "The Kingsguard does not flee."

"Then, or now," said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

"We swore a vow," explained old Ser Gerold.

Ned's wraiths moved up beside him, shadow swords in their hands. They were seven against three. "And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

"No," said Ned with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends."

As seen from the people Ned selects, there are some bannermen and all are LOYAL men. The 7 appear to have raced off from the Siege at Storm's End far ahead of the army, if any, followed them. Also, the three knights were waiting... heck, one was sharpening his sword on a whetstone and all were wearing their armor. Not like for people to wear armor in the mountains of Dorne just for the sake of doing so...

Its clear that they are quite honorbound, as they say Jaime would be burning in hell had they been present at the Trident or been near their King. They are not going to go to Robert as king - heck, Barristan survived the Trident despite being wounded severely and was given a pardon from Robert in part because he fought so bravely. Barristan regretted that decision and went to Dany. Jaime's POV's seem to show the contrast between the honor of the Kingsguard before the Kingslaying, and the contrast with the perception of them now that he and others (such as kettleblack) serve in it. After all, there is a line in AFFC when Jaime says that if he had the choice, the Kingsguard would be returned once to their glory. It all leads to the belief that the Kingsguard that was at the TOJ would not have yielded to Robert due to their honor and the vows they swore.

On the topic of bastards... well kings could legitimize heirs and its reasonable to assume that royal family members could name their heir. There is an interesting parallel in House Frey and the Targaryen situation - Lord Walder Frey is still alive but his eldest son Stevron, his eldest son Ryman are now dead so now the heir of the crossing would be Edwyn, despite the fact that his father and grandfather had never been Lord of the Crossing.

Thus Rhaegar's son would be heir before Viserys was King unless all his sons were dead. Thus if Lyanna had a son of Rhaegar and the KG knew, then Viserys would not be the King, it would be the true king they were protecting...

Oh and I still love this topic

[Shewoman]

reyjin--GoT Pp. 380-1: Ned thinks of promises he made to Lyanna "and the price he had paid to keep them."

[Ser Bruce the Hound KG]

the key line for me is Ned say the Jon is his blood and that all Cat needs to know the note being that he never says son. This push me towards Jon being the son of an other Sark Barndon die before he could father a Child. Benjen there a long shot, the only thing we have is him talk with Jon about fathering basters and wishing Jon was his son, or Lyanna for whom there are many reason to think that she is the mother. Add to that what she thought of Robert , not much, I could see marring Rhaeger under allowed Polgamy

[Shewoman]

Plus, if Jon's father is Brandon, Benjen, or Rickard, why keep that a secret? I think Brandon and Rickard died too early (just before the war started) to be Jon's father if Jon was born around the time Ned found Lyanna (the war lasted a year or more). But they're dead and were single at the time Jon would have been conceived (although Brandon was engaged). Benjen is also single and is now at the Wall. Why would Ned lie in order to save their reputations at the cost of harming his own and, worse, creating problems within his own family where Jon's parentage and status are concerned? If R+L=J, Ned's claim of paternity and refusal to name the mother to Catelyn or Jon makes more sense.

[Greywolf2375]

Plus, if Jon's father is Brandon, Benjen, or Rickard, why keep that a secret?

Right , especially if it is Brandon or Rickard - he would be now taking care of his dead brothers son, a very "family" type thing to do. Not that there is any evidence to support it, but if it was Benjen there might be a reason to keep it a secret (the NW vows) but not enough to keep it away from Catelyn.

My thoughts have been that to Ned, the Stark family honor was more important than his own personal, so he would be more willing to break his personal belief in favor of the family. If it was only his own neck on the line, he would have told Catelyn. Since this (theoretically) is bigger than just him, he believes strongly in the "once you tell someone a secret, it's no longer a secret" idea even though it costs him personally with his wife.

[Houndelicious]

If this has been brought up before in this thread let me know, I just dont have time to read it all right now, but I noticed one peculiar thing in a AGOT reread - when Bran and Osha and Maester Luwin go down to the crypts after Ned is killed and Bran sees him in his dream, someone (forgive me I dont have a copy with me) mentions that Brandon and Lyanna shouldnt technically have statues and tombs, and then Osha menttions something about how its even sadder that the tombs are empty.

I understand that she couldve just been talking about Brandon and Rickard, but the context of the quote makes it sound like she is talking about all three of them. Did Ned ever even bring Lyanna's bones back, or was that a sham for ANOTHER promise that he made her?

[Diseased21]

Has anyone noticed that Catelyn compares Jon and Arya a few times? She notes that both of them have their father's look, that they both look very similar, and that Arya looks incredibly like Lyanna. So...what do you think? More clues to R+L=J? Or just a red herring?

[Shewoman]

Greywolf--Benjen didn't join the Night's Watch until after Ned, Catelyn, Jon, and Robb were all back at Winterfell, so if he had been Jon's father there'd be no question of his having broken the NW vows.

Houndelicious, Ned did bring Lyanna's body back and put statues up to her and Brandon because he loved them, although that was just supposed to be for Lords of Winterfell (GoF p. 733, US paperback). It doesn't say they shouldn't have tombs.

Diseased21, I thought Ned did that more than Catelyn did, but I do think it's an indication of R+L.

[Greywolf2375]

Greywolf--Benjen didn't join the Night's Watch until after Ned, Catelyn, Jon, and Robb were all back at Winterfell, so if he had been Jon's father there'd be no question of his having broken the NW vows.

I obviously missed that - where does it say that?

[snake]

Just a comment about an earlier discussion. While rereading a dany chapter I noticed that Ser Barriston said thatwhile at Summerhall event he Kingsguard did not attend Prince Rhaegar so this leads me to believe that Prince Rhaegar had at least one Kingsguard with him most of the time. Personally I think it was Ser Arthur and that he and probably Whent originally went with him to the ToJ and that they were probably with him when Lyanna was abducted.

[Shewoman]

Good point, Snake.

Greywolf, Benjen was "the Stark at Winterfell" during the war since Rickard and Brandon were dead and Ned was fighting. Catelyn went to Riverrun. I think we're told he joined the NW after the birth of Sansa, when it became less likely (after two children--and maybe it was after Bran) that Ned would need his brother as an heir. It's probably in the chapter where there's a feast in honor of the Baratheons and Benjen is there.

[Greywolf2375]

Good point, Snake.

Greywolf, Benjen was "the Stark at Winterfell" during the war since Rickard and Brandon were dead and Ned was fighting. Catelyn went to Riverrun. I think we're told he joined the NW after the birth of Sansa, when it became less likely (after two children--and maybe it was after Bran) that Ned would need his brother as an heir. It's probably in the chapter where there's a feast in honor of the Baratheons and Benjen is there.

OK, thank you very much. Another chapter I need to go re-read.

[Shewoman]

Greywolf--it's not in GoT, at least not in the early chapters as far as I can tell. But I went to the Citadel and, under "Starks," found this: "Benjen Stark joined the Night's Watch shortly after Lord Eddard had returned to Winterfell and Lady Catelyn had taken up residence with the infant Robb (SSC: 89)." I don't know what "SSC" means. I was wrong in thinking it was after more than one of Catelyn and Ned's children were born; sorry about that. But, since Jon was at Winterfell before Catelyn and Robb were, this does mean that Benjen was not in the NW at the time Jon was conceived. Apologies for steering you wrong to begin with--