The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread, Part II

[Greywolf2375]

And now look at whatcha dundid - I went and re-read some chapters I didn't have to...oh the shame.

Thanks for digging that out, I appreciate the clarification.

[Ned Sand]

I went to the Citadel and, under "Starks," found this: "Benjen Stark joined the Night's Watch shortly after Lord Eddard had returned to Winterfell and Lady Catelyn had taken up residence with the infant Robb (SSC: 89)."

So that's the when. Do we know the why? What was Benjen's motivation for joining the NW? Benjen could have served as a potent bannerman for Ned. Why give that up?

[Shewoman]

I don't think we've been told the "why." We know that the Starks have long supported the NW and consider it an honorable vocation (the fact that they are the Northernmost noble family gives them reason to want the NW to be strong). Ned had a trueborn son before Benjen left, so there was an heir. And Benjen is apparently a brave, daring sort of person; what sort of life would it be for him to stay at Winterfell as more sons were born to Ned and Catelyn, each one moving him farther from the Lordship? The NW was a place where he could act to protect Westeros (including Winterfell) from danger and where he could make a name for himself (as he did) in a way he couldn't at Winterfell by this point. Given the family attitude towards the NW, I don't find his choice unusual.

[Vashna]

Hello, all. First time poster sharing my thoughts:

After reading this entire thread, I would like to suggest (under the assumption Lyanna birthed Jon) that the father is not Rhaegar, but Aerys. I believe Rhaegar and Lyanna fancied each other at the tournament, and after he crowned her Queen of Love and Beauty, she went with the prince willingly. Many draw parellels between Lyanna and Arya's wild nature, but I think Lyanna also shared traits with Sansa, namely her awestruck affection for prince charming (recall Sansa's daydreams of Joffrey in the first book). She clearly disliked her betrothed Robert's fooling around, and here was the Prince, heir to the throne, crowning HER queen.

They mistook her disappearance for an abduction, but here's where the twist comes in (my theory). When Rhaegar returned to the Red Keep with Lyanna, Aerys raped her behind his back. There's various passages that support this belief, a rumor that he actually committed this act, his penchant for mistreating women, the rough sex he had with his Rhaella (I will get back to this in a minute). I hold to the notion that Rhaegar, while brooding, melancholic and prophecy-driven, was still upstanding and honorable, as befitting any best friend to Arthur Dayne (the most honorable, best of knights). When Aerys raped her, Rhaegar spirited her away to the Tower out of reach of his father and commanded the three best, most honorable of the Kingsguard to defend it. The obvious question: why?

I think the combination of love for her and the feeling of failure that he allowed his father to victimize her, stirred a deep indebtedness within him toward her. He felt the need to champion her and protect her. This explains several things. When Rhaegar returns later to the Red Keep and then battles on the Trident, his father Aerys does not object to the three Kingsguard remaining at the Tower. Further, it shines light on Rhaegar's words that he will "deal with his father" once he returns from the Trident. Deal with his father regarding what? It seems to me that his father raped a woman he cared deeply about, so he made sure she was safe before going to war and afterwards he was going to confront his father about the rape.

But Aerys was the Mad King. He saw treason all about. Part of my theory/belief is that he didn't even trust any of his existing family, including Rhaegar; perhaps he raped Lyanna to spite Rhaegar. But I think ultimately Aerys was faced with the harsh reality that his dynasty was ending and he desperately tried to preserve it by impregnating varied women to spread his seed. Think about it; recall the scene where he's having rough sex with the Queen, hurting her. What would prompt him to engage in such a vigorous, selfish act, without regard for her (beyond the fact he's Mad), but to make sure she carried another child. And she did, because she fled to Dragonstone shortly thereafter carrying Dany in her belly to the surprise of all.

One child is not enough to guarantee the Targaryen survival. He raped Lyanna before that, impregnating her too. Aerys knows this, which is why he didn't contradict the Kingsguard guarding the Tower. He preferred it! The reason the Kingsguard are arrogant at the battle of 7v3 is that they know Lyanna is carrying an heir, but it's not Rhaegar's. They know it is Aerys' direct blood, his son. Now how they know this is one of two ways. Either Rhaegar told them this when spiriting her away in the first place, or ultimately they found out on their own as time passed and her belly got larger. One way or the other, they knew she was carrying a Targaryen child.

The theory's been all along that it's Rhaegar's child, but I contend that it's the Mad King's. Hence Jon and Daenarys are both the last children of the Mad King, the ice and fire, born less than a year apart, male and female, and I propose they will ultimately unite, marry and conceive a child, as per the foundation of Targaryen dynasty in which brother and sister marry; they will reestablish that trend and restore the bloodline.

As for what Lyanna promised? She probably revealed to her brother Ned that it was Aerys who raped her, and that Rhaegar protected her. This *would* account for his peace of mind during the conversation. After all, the king was dead, his keep sacked, he paid for the crime. And Rhaegar was not the villain he originally perceived him to be, so a burden was lifted. She probably beseeched him to protect the child, who would no doubt be killed for bearing Targ blood. And ever since, Ned has had to lie to Robert, making Robert believe Rhaegar was the bad guy and deserved to pay, even though his inward reflections held that Rhaegar was not the kind of man to frequent brothels, infering that he had some measure of honor and respect toward women.

Thoughts?

[ooshabooboo]

I like most of your theory, it is definitely a possibility. The only problem I have with your theory is Ned not telling Robert that it was Aerys and not Rhaegar. I dont see why it would be a problem to tell Robert that Rhaegar didnt rape her, I dont think it would have brought up questions about Jon and if Ned could keep Jons parentage a secret while still not telling complete lies to Robert, he would have done so. But perhaps this is my hope that Jon wasnt conceived by an act of rape, although that would really put a different spin on his character and possibly make his meeting with Dany a little more heated than what I previously imagined, which could be interesting.

Edit: for some reason my apostrophe button on the keyboard is not working... sorry.

[Vashna]

Yes, I admit Ned's actions are a bit sketchy. Maybe this is the philosophy that it's better to believe a lie than nothing at all. Robert believed Rhaegar was guilty and killed him for it in single combat on the Trident. In the first book Robert tells Ned how it wasn't enough, that he wished he could kill Rhaegar a thousand times over. Why rob him of that slim satisfaction of revenge by telling him that Rhaegar was actually a noble man hiding Lyanna away from the real culprit. Of course, he could leave that tidbit out and just tell him that Aerys raped her. But Robert strikes me as the kind of man that would brood over the fact Jaime killed Aerys before he could. He'd suffer that emptiness.

[Shewoman]

Vashna said: Hello, all. First time poster sharing my thoughts:

After reading this entire thread, I would like to suggest (under the assumption Lyanna birthed Jon) that the father is not Rhaegar, but Aerys. I believe Rhaegar and Lyanna fancied each other at the tournament, and after he crowned her Queen of Love and Beauty, she went with the prince willingly. Many draw parellels between Lyanna and Arya's wild nature, but I think Lyanna also shared traits with Sansa, namely her awestruck affection for prince charming (recall Sansa's daydreams of Joffrey in the first book). She clearly disliked her betrothed Robert's fooling around, and here was the Prince, heir to the throne, crowning HER queen.

They mistook her disappearance for an abduction, but here's where the twist comes in (my theory). When Rhaegar returned to the Red Keep with Lyanna, Aerys raped her behind his back. There's various passages that support this belief, a rumor that he actually committed this act, his penchant for mistreating women, the rough sex he had with his Rhaella (I will get back to this in a minute). I hold to the notion that Rhaegar, while brooding, melancholic and prophecy-driven, was still upstanding and honorable, as befitting any best friend to Arthur Dayne (the most honorable, best of knights). When Aerys raped her, Rhaegar spirited her away to the Tower out of reach of his father and commanded the three best, most honorable of the Kingsguard to defend it. The obvious question: why?

I think the combination of love for her and the feeling of failure that he allowed his father to victimize her, stirred a deep indebtedness within him toward her. He felt the need to champion her and protect her. This explains several things. When Rhaegar returns later to the Red Keep and then battles on the Trident, his father Aerys does not object to the three Kingsguard remaining at the Tower. Further, it shines light on Rhaegar's words that he will "deal with his father" once he returns from the Trident. Deal with his father regarding what? It seems to me that his father raped a woman he cared deeply about, so he made sure she was safe before going to war and afterwards he was going to confront his father about the rape.

But Aerys was the Mad King. He saw treason all about. Part of my theory/belief is that he didn't even trust any of his existing family, including Rhaegar; perhaps he raped Lyanna to spite Rhaegar. But I think ultimately Aerys was faced with the harsh reality that his dynasty was ending and he desperately tried to preserve it by impregnating varied women to spread his seed. Think about it; recall the scene where he's having rough sex with the Queen, hurting her. What would prompt him to engage in such a vigorous, selfish act, without regard for her (beyond the fact he's Mad), but to make sure she carried another child. And she did, because she fled to Dragonstone shortly thereafter carrying Dany in her belly to the surprise of all.

One child is not enough to guarantee the Targaryen survival. He raped Lyanna before that, impregnating her too. Aerys knows this, which is why he didn't contradict the Kingsguard guarding the Tower. He preferred it! The reason the Kingsguard are arrogant at the battle of 7v3 is that they know Lyanna is carrying an heir, but it's not Rhaegar's. They know it is Aerys' direct blood, his son. Now how they know this is one of two ways. Either Rhaegar told them this when spiriting her away in the first place, or ultimately they found out on their own as time passed and her belly got larger. One way or the other, they knew she was carrying a Targaryen child.

The theory's been all along that it's Rhaegar's child, but I contend that it's the Mad King's. Hence Jon and Daenarys are both the last children of the Mad King, the ice and fire, born less than a year apart, male and female, and I propose they will ultimately unite, marry and conceive a child, as per the foundation of Targaryen dynasty in which brother and sister marry; they will reestablish that trend and restore the bloodline.

As for what Lyanna promised? She probably revealed to her brother Ned that it was Aerys who raped her, and that Rhaegar protected her. This *would* account for his peace of mind during the conversation. After all, the king was dead, his keep sacked, he paid for the crime. And Rhaegar was not the villain he originally perceived him to be, so a burden was lifted. She probably beseeched him to protect the child, who would no doubt be killed for bearing Targ blood. And ever since, Ned has had to lie to Robert, making Robert believe Rhaegar was the bad guy and deserved to pay, even though his inward reflections held that Rhaegar was not the kind of man to frequent brothels, infering that he had some measure of honor and respect toward women.

Thoughts?

Me: This has been suggested before as a way of explaining how Rhaegar and Lyanna could have run away without being dishonorable. If you're implying that she vanished with him right after Harrenhal, that's not possible; I think Harrenhal was some time (perhaps as much as a year) before the war started.

I do like your suggestion of a parallel with Sansa.

We don't know that Lyanna was ever in the Red Keep, but neither do we have a statement denying it.

Rhaegar's statement about dealing with his father could well be because his father was insane, although your reading is also possible.

Aerys' dynasty was strong up until he alienated so many people by killing Brandon and Rickard Stark and Brandon's squires (and some of their fathers). That's what started the war. And Aerys had a grandson and granddaughter in addition to Rhaegar, so there were 3 heirs, 2 male.

Your suggestion that Aerys wanted the KG at ToJ is possible, but if he was concerned about heirs why wouldn't he protect Rhaenys and Aegon in Kings' Landing instead? Or bring Lyanna and her child there? Why would he protect that child and not Rhaegar and Elia's?

I don't remember Ned having "peace of mind" during his conversation with Lyanna. SHE relaxed when he made her the promises (more than one) and died. Ned did keep his promises to Lyanna, he thinks of them "and the price he'd paid to keep them" (GoT 380-1 UR paperback.)

I don't think Ned would believe it was better for Robert to believe a lie than the truth.

[Vashna]

Me: This has been suggested before as a way of explaining how Rhaegar and Lyanna could have run away without being dishonorable. If you're implying that she vanished with him right after Harrenhal, that's not possible; I think Harrenhal was some time (perhaps as much as a year) before the war started.

I do like your suggestion of a parallel with Sansa.

We don't know that Lyanna was ever in the Red Keep, but neither do we have a statement denying it.

Rhaegar's statement about dealing with his father could well be because his father was insane, although your reading is also possible.

Aerys' dynasty was strong up until he alienated so many people by killing Brandon and Rickard Stark and Brandon's squires (and some of their fathers). That's what started the war. And Aerys had a grandson and granddaughter in addition to Rhaegar, so there were 3 heirs, 2 male.

Your suggestion that Aerys wanted the KG at ToJ is possible, but if he was concerned about heirs why wouldn't he protect Rhaenys and Aegon in Kings' Landing instead? Or bring Lyanna and her child there? Why would he protect that child and not Rhaegar and Elia's?

I don't remember Ned having "peace of mind" during his conversation with Lyanna. SHE relaxed when he made her the promises (more than one) and died. Ned did keep his promises to Lyanna, he thinks of them "and the price he'd paid to keep them" (GoT 380-1 UR paperback.)

I don't think Ned would believe it was better for Robert to believe a lie than the truth.

I was not implying she left immediately from the tournament with Prince Rhaegar, but rather at some point later in time she did this, which was mistaken as an abduction.

From your point of view (and any logical person's, mine included) yes Aerys' dynasty was thriving, with multiple heirs. But I envision the Mad King as delusional to the point where he sensed treason all about; this distrust extended even to his family. Perhaps he was at odds with Rhaeger's prophecy-driven ways, or sought to steal the glory for himself by claiming Lyanna in Rhaegar's stead. I don't know; I'm currently in the process of rereading the series to regain a grasp on my perceptions of Aerys. Maybe he cared more about unborn children than the living ones that he looked upon with complete distrust; after all he's not the shining beacon of rational thinking.

I suppose most of this is based on nothing more than rumor that Aerys raped her, as he did others. I tend to believe that most rumors have some grounding in fact, though most times they are greatly exaggerated or contorted with the passing of time.

As for why Ned hides this from Robert or prefers him to believe a lie? I'm still rethinking that aspect, but how 'bout this? If Eddard admitted Jon was the offspring of the last king, Aerys, then Jon arguably can contest Robert's throne. After all, in the first book Robert mentions sending assassins to finish off Dany. Why would he not want Jon dead as well, since according to my theory, Jon would be her brother and also an heir. By telling him that Aerys raped her, that does two things: it tarnishes her beauty in Robert's eyes ("damaged goods"), and it starts a chain of thinking and doubt ("if he raped her, did she get pregnant?"). If I recall correctly, there's never been absolute confirmation from anyone that Rhaegar and Lyanna shared a romance and had sex, only that she was believed to be kidnapped. Rape confirms the possibility of there being a child. Robert might not figure it out, but word spreads and others might start putting pieces together ("Hey Ned, weren't you down there with a child around that time?")

[Shewoman]

Vashna--I think you're right that, whatever the actual circumstances of Lyanna's disappearance from the North, the incident at Harrenhal would lead people to assume that Rhaegar was involved (okay, you didn't exactly say that but it's sort of in your first paragraph).

We know that Rhaegar said to someone before he went to the Trident (where he died) that when he came back he was going to do something about his father; I'm sorry not to be able to be at all specific about that quote (maybe a Jaime PoV). I don't think we've heard about Aerys expressing any problems with Rhaegar, but then we haven't really heard much about Aerys' thinking. If Aerys was violent (and distrusting of Rhaegar), I think Rhaegar would have known; would he have taken Lyanna to the Red Keep?

Not all rumors are based in fact; in the series we've heard both Wylla and Ashara credited with being Jon's mother, and they can't both be! Catelyn heard that Bran and Rickon were dead, and they weren't.

I'm quite with you on Ned allowing Robert to believe a lie about Jon's parentage; Jon wouldn't survive if Robert knew the truth (in the last line of my previous post I was thinking Ned wouldn't let Robert think it was Rhaegar if was actually Aerys, not that he wouldn't let Robert believe a lie in general). But I can think of nowhere we find Ned telling Robert Rhaegar was a bad guy; my impression is that Ned doesn't agree with Robert's take on Rhaegar but leaves it alone (for the reason given above). But if Ned knew that Aerys was actually responsible, I don't see why it would hurt to tell Robert that.

[Piper]

Not all rumors are based in fact; in the series we've heard both Wylla and Ashara credited with being Jon's mother, and they can't both be!

I think the point would be that, while one or both are untrue in their entirety, they'd be based on the truth that Ned had some sort of feelings and/or relationship with each woman, or at least spent some notable period of time with them. From such a truth would the rumor of thier motherhood of Jon arise.

[Vashna]

Having started to reread AGOT this week, today I read from the point Jon first meets Samwell at the Wall, to the Hand's Tourney from Sansa's point of view. I thought I'd mention further interesting parellel between Sansa and Lyanna from the previous generation. At Harrenhal, Rhaegar crowns Lyanna "Queen of Love and Beauty" (with blue flowers if I'm not mistaken). At the Hand's Tourney, Ser Loras Tyrell unseats Robert's brother Renly with a vicious blow and then comes before Sansa, handing her a red rose (after each previous victory he bestowed white roses on random maidens).

Right after this, Lord Baelish happens upon Sansa, bearing mixed feelings of happiness and jealousy at seeing a younger version of his unrequited love Catelyn; his eyes betray feelings of sadness that she's the product of Eddard's love and not his own. He remarks to Sansa about how when he was younger, Catelyn was *his* "queen of beauty". Right there draws a distinct parellel between Rhaegar/Lyanna and Loras/Sansa on several levels (the flowers/roses, the tourney-crowned queen...). I'm not saying it goes beyond that for Sansa, but it's an interesting observation. Maybe history will repeat itself and Sansa takes on the Lyanna role in some further fashion?

Also one last thing which I found neat. When I first read (or rather reread) the episode with Jon and Samwell outside at night, away from the feast, Samwell tells the story of how his father sent him north. The Lord of Highgarden (Warden of the South) hated his fat, craven son. He desperately tried to create a new heir, having "three daughters in as many years" as the passage reveals. After that, his wife finally graced him with a second son, Loras, the "Knight of Flowers". The Sansa POV of the Tourney quotes Loras as being sixteen; so with a little reverse math, adding three years for his three sisters, that puts Samwell at a minimum of 20. I just find that interesting that I kept perceiving Samwell as this plump, awkward teenager, similar in age to Jon (who I believe turned 15 shortly after joining the Night's Watch). Instead Jon's close friend is quite a bit older, making his obesity and cowardice all the more awkward perhaps.

[Ser Bruce the Hound KG]

Sam is Randly Tarlly Son his father is the Lord of Horn Hill and a Primy banner of the Lord of Highgarden, Sam is 15 wich is clearly stated Lord of Highgarden as one Daughter Margert, and 3 son two who great knight and one (his heir) who is Crippled (by the Red Viper) and who the Queen of Thores whante Sansa to marry

[Vashna]

You're right. I stand corrected. I don't know why I confused Samwell's origins; I guess I mixed up the Horn Hill bannerman with the Lord of Highgarden himself. So I wasn't delusional after all about Sam being similar age to Jon!

[Ser Bruce the Hound KG]

No worry with so many houses in easy to get them mixed up or who the are bannermen to. As for mistake when I started talk about the books for the first time, have read alot about the Wars of the Roses growing-up, I always put my buddies off by call Lannister Lanncaster(yes I know I was Planned)

[cosnik]

I wonder if Baristan would have anything to say about Aerys private dealings...

[Dr Adder]

certainly not ...he doesn't want Dany (the precious little thing) to find out what her father was really like.

[A wilding]

When Rhaegar returned to the Red Keep with Lyanna, Aerys raped her behind his back. There's various passages that support this belief, a rumor that he actually committed this act, his penchant for mistreating women, the rough sex he had with his Rhaella (I will get back to this in a minute).

...

I suppose most of this is based on nothing more than rumor that Aerys raped her, as he did others. I tend to believe that most rumors have some grounding in fact, though most times they are greatly exaggerated or contorted with the passing of time.

I think that you might be confusing Aerys with his ancestor Aegon the Unworthy.

There are no rumours in the books about Aerys raping anyone, or even being attracted to women very much (though there are some more or less crackpot theories about him on this site).

The key point about Aerys assaulting his wife that time (and incidentally, it is highly likely that in Westeros it is legally impossible for a man to rape his wife) was that he had just had a man burnt to death in front of his eyes; the implication being that it took something like that to get him interested at all.

As for it being a deliberate attempt to get a third child, the chances of a single session between a couple in their 40s resulting in pregnancy are not that high. And as Rhaella left for Dragonstone a few days afterwards at most, Aerys would in any case not have known if he had got a result. So he would have to have been relying on magic or prophecy somehow.

[Spring Bass]

My main reason for thinking the Aerys theory is slightly unlikely is based off of what we know of Aerys at the time. Like it is mentioned in the previous post, he never even touched his wife unless it was after he burned a man; I think it's unlikely that he'd even be capable of impregnating Lyanna, much less raping her.

Add on to that from what we know from Jaime's chapters in AFfC, where by the end of his kingship Aerys was a shell of man; filthy, unwashed, withered, nine-inch fingernails. If he tried to rape Lyanna, she could probably kill him (especially since we know she was at least physically competent enough to fight off three squires with a training sword from ASoS). Aerys could order his Kingsguard to hold her down, or something like that, but it seems unlikely that this would happen in Rhaegar's presence, not to mention the fact that Jaime (who was reportedly kept near Aerys to ensure Tywin's loyalty) has no recollection of this event.

Although . . . Rhaegar did let Aerys treat the Queen rather roughly in bed. On the other hand, though, Rhaella is his wife; under patriarchal westerosi custom she was probably fulfilling her 'wifely' duty or something like that.

[Arioch]

I don't think we've been told the "why." We know that the Starks have long supported the NW and consider it an honorable vocation (the fact that they are the Northernmost noble family gives them reason to want the NW to be strong). Ned had a trueborn son before Benjen left, so there was an heir. And Benjen is apparently a brave, daring sort of person; what sort of life would it be for him to stay at Winterfell as more sons were born to Ned and Catelyn, each one moving him farther from the Lordship? The NW was a place where he could act to protect Westeros (including Winterfell) from danger and where he could make a name for himself (as he did) in a way he couldn't at Winterfell by this point. Given the family attitude towards the NW, I don't find his choice unusual.

I have a good guess why -- Jon. Brenden probably knows Eddard better than anyone at the time, so would be least likely to believe Ned if J=R+L. By joining the NW (which on the surface is not unusual for Starks), he removes himself from the succession. He was too far away to have been Jon's alibi father (which would have been safest). He obviously joined young enough that he reflects with Jon about not joining before siring a few bastards first, so likely Robb is Ned's only heir at the time (and, depending upon pigeon speed and content, may not have known about Robb when joining). In other words, by joining asap, he may have been leaving Ned with a reason to legitimize Jon. Of course, Ned doesn't, which IS curious, given that he let's world+dog know. While Cat may have had something to do with this, consider also that if J=R+L, Ned making him heir to Winterfell would actual be *stealing* Jon's rightful place in the Targaryen succession.

[Shewoman]

Note the Martin quote in post 162, above: Robb was already born and at Winterfell when Benjen joined the Night's Watch. So he knew his brother had a legitimate heir; I doubt he would have left him without one.

Ned and Catelyn were young; it wouldn't be likely that Ned would legitimate a bastard until it became apparent that he'd have no legitimate children.