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The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread, Part II


Werthead

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The only real circumstantial evidence supporting the Aerys rape theory is that almost everyone believes Lyanna to have been raped.

And when all these rumors are flying about it, there is a decent chance that there is a seed of truth. I think GRRM does this really well in a lot of his rumor scenes, like Beric's dead, no he's not, and the three headed dragon in Mereen, etc. Always the rumors are not true, but with a seed of truth. So in this case the truth is she was raped, except not by Rhaegar.

The other circumstantial evidence is how Aerys treated Rikard Stark/Brandon Stark. You can explain it with his madness, but it would make a lot more sense if he did it because he knew that reconcilation with the Starks was not possible, so he might as well kill them to reduce their threat. Also remember he asks Jon Aryn for both Ned and Robert's head. Why Robert? That always puzzled me a bit. But it is explainable if he knew that because of his rape that reconcilation with Robert was also impossible, and hence the move to kill all of them.

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Why Robert? That always puzzled me a bit. But it is explainable if he knew that because of his rape that reconcilation with Robert was also impossible, and hence the move to kill all of them.

It's simpler to explain if you take into account the fact that he probably knew that

A)his son, Rhaegar, had absconded with Lyanna, and

B)Robert Baratheon was engaged to her, so it was a massive insult to House Baratheon, meaning that

C)He acted to eliminate a threat.

Adding in him raping Lyanna simply adds another factor with massive ramnifications and only weak evidence.

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Note the Martin quote in post 162, above: Robb was already born and at Winterfell when Benjen joined the Night's Watch. So he knew his brother had a legitimate heir; I doubt he would have left him without one.

Ned and Catelyn were young; it wouldn't be likely that Ned would legitimate a bastard until it became apparent that he'd have no legitimate children.

And Benjen was younger. I'm just saying he did it shortly after Ned's return, and kids weren't living long at the time. I think removing himself as a possible heir was significant, at least as young as he was; had he waited UNTIL Ned and Cat had more children (and thus a more solid succession), it would make more sense. On the other hand, Brenden was now a second son, not a third, and of a major house. He would have been extremely marriageable; maybe there were no Baratheons available; I can't imagine him going for a Lannister.

Or maybe it's just me...I always saw it as almost an act of Rebellion against Ned. The KotLT story makes him seem closer to Lyanna than Ned or Brandon; maybe he just wanted an excuse to not see Cat degrade Lyanna's son.

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Benjen seems to show up at Winterfell every so often; I don't see any hint of problems between him and his brother.

He was "the Stark at Winterfell" during the war. I think it reasonable to assume that he had a great deal of authority, was able to make decisions, and in general fulfilled an important occupation. And then Ned came home and became the Stark at Winterfell. What's Benjen--who's obviously a strong and capable man--supposed to do? Watch his brother do the things that had, for awhile, been his duty? Watch his sister-in-law bear more sons, each one moving Benjen farther away from any hope of Winterfell coming to him? The NW is a challenging place, full of danger and new experiences; it's also an important post, protecting all of Westeros (but particularly Winterfell, the closest Noble House [i think] to the Wall). Benjen did well there and rose in honor; Jon has as well. It's a good place for men who have no real future with their families.

I don't see any reason to think Benjen knows anything about Jon's parentage except Ned's story that he himself is Jon's father. If Ned won't even tell Jon, whose business it is, why would he tell Benjen? If Jon's heritage is supposed to be a secret--and I think it's clear that it is, given that Ned won't set the problems in his family straight by telling the truth--then telling anyone is setting that at risk.

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First post! I've been visiting this forum for a while but only recently signed up. From what I can tell the R+L=J theory has been raging for a while. Some agree with it and others don't. Personally I'm in the same boat as the supporters of the theory. I agree with it from many reasons but here's two that I have found in my re-read of AGoT. On page 380 (well in my edition anyways, I got in the library at my highschool, it's a bit tattered and has a picture of an older looking Jon on the front riding a black horse, with Mormont's raven flying over his shoulder) during an Eddard Chapter he thinks to himself, "He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them", and on 381 it says "For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not."

As to the first quote, when I read it my first time through the series wondered why it cost Ned such a great price to fuffill his sister's dying wish to be buried at Winterfell in the crypts. A sad task to be sure but it was nothing that Ned would have to pay a great personal sacrifice. If R+L=J is indeed true I think that would make more sense. It would mean a blow to Ned's honor having to "admit" to everyone, having sired a bastard. His relationship with Catelyn, while not strained, was damaged by that. He would have to lie to his friend and King, Robert Baratheon. And other such sacrifices.

The second quote seems to help establish Rhaegar's honor. I do not think he was the rapist Robert seemed to tell everyone. When Robert and Ned were riding back to KL near the beggining of AGot, Robert went off on a rant against Rhaegar. Ned chose to say nothing, which sometimes signals agreement, but I think it was Ned knowing that no matter what he said he couldn't change Robert's mind. As to Ned's thought's on 381 why would a "rapist" like Rhaegar shy away from brothels? It seems to me a man like that would have no problems laying with whores. Ned thinks that Rhaegar was to honourable for brothels, and by default too honourable for rape. Anyways that's my two cents.

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I think that you might be confusing Aerys with his ancestor Aegon the Unworthy.

There are no rumours in the books about Aerys raping anyone, or even being attracted to women very much (though there are some more or less crackpot theories about him on this site).

Except for those persistent rumours about Aerys and Lord Tywin's wife Joanna... :|

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Except for those persistent rumours about Aerys and Lord Tywin's wife Joanna... :|

Though again, any connection between Aerys and Joanna has been made only by fans (and is IMO crackpot). The books have no rumours connecting them in any way whatsoever.

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Well, in my very first post here, I'm just going to say that I think it's about 95% probably that Jon is Lyanna and Rhaegar's son. It just fits the facts very nicely.

What I consider the REAL question is, what will he do when he finds out? Is he going to become on of Dany's dragon heads? Abandon his post as Lord Commander and his oaths to sit on the Iron Throne? Or renounce his bloodline and remain on the Wall?

I certainly hope he stays on the Wall, but from what we've seen from him in the past, I do not know if this is what he'll do.

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Well, in my very first post here, I'm just going to say that I think it's about 95% probably that Jon is Lyanna and Rhaegar's son. It just fits the facts very nicely.

What I consider the REAL question is, what will he do when he finds out? Is he going to become on of Dany's dragon heads? Abandon his post as Lord Commander and his oaths to sit on the Iron Throne? Or renounce his bloodline and remain on the Wall?

I certainly hope he stays on the Wall, but from what we've seen from him in the past, I do not know if this is what he'll do.

Agreed. I don't understand why Jon fanboys want him to marry Dany, get a dragon and become King of Westeros. It would completely destroy the character he has been developing very gradually throughout the series (Jon realizing it's no shame to be a bastard - that he is a man of the Night's Watch and that is the greatest honor he could want). If he breaks his vows and leaves his duty I certainly hope he is justly punished not rewarded with a kingdom.

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Has it occurred to anyone else that because of the prevalent acceptance as fact that Lyanna and Rhaegar are Jon's true parents, George Martin will change Jon's lineage just to screw with all the theorists?

Actually this argument was brought many times already. IMHO Martin wouldn’t change his plans because his fans figured something out.

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Has it occurred to anyone else that because of the prevalent acceptance as fact that Lyanna and Rhaegar are Jon's true parents, George Martin will change Jon's lineage just to screw with all the theorists?

IMO that would be some pretty bad writing, to change things around just because of that. I imagine it would have major ramifications to the rest of the plotline, and then the rest of the books would end up feeling flat because he would be "forcing" his world instead of allowing his plotline to run.

I don't know if I just made any sense, but yeah, I think GRRM is too good of a writer to do that.

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Actually this argument was brought many times already. IMHO Martin wouldn’t change his plans because his fans figured something out.

I believe some of the people that know him have confirmed that this wouldn't take place - the story is what the story is; GRRM is not trying to "out do" the readers and throw a switch at them because of the theories we're playing around with.

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I believe some of the people that know him have confirmed that this wouldn't take place - the story is what the story is; GRRM is not trying to "out do" the readers and throw a switch at them because of the theories we're playing around with.

You mean like *cough* Taimandred *cough*?

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A lot of people were poppin off about why Ashara Dayne would help our boy Ed Stark conceal the baby of R+L

The reason is that she loves Eddard. Her heart is broken but she is still honorable enough to honor what her father would have wanted, which is the child protected. If Arthur Dayne would die for the baby, she would honor that and see it live. Yet, the reason she killed herself could be that she wanted Ed to stay with her and raise the child as their own, and possibly even made mention of the arrangement, and upon his refusal for honorable reasons (being wed to Caitlyn) she killed herself. Ned would have to refuse against what were probably the wishes of his heart.

The wetnurse Wylla would help because she was commanded too, or for other reasons.

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The L + R = J theory is the only one that makes sense to me.

And- I think Lyanna went with Rhaegar willingly.

As for dishonoring her family, perhaps she felt betrayed by them, especially her father and her brother Ned.

We know that she did not want to marry Robert at all; but her father ignored her wishes and betrothed them anyway.

And her brother Ned tried to console her, but could only offer a weak platitude about how much Robert loved her. He never even tried to help her, or tried to persuade their father against the betrothal.

Since her family didn't care about her, why should she worry about their dishonor?

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As for dishonoring her family, perhaps she felt betrayed by them, especially her father and her brother Ned.

We know that she did not want to marry Robert at all; but her father ignored her wishes and betrothed them anyway.

And her brother Ned tried to console her, but could only offer a weak platitude about how much Robert loved her. He never even tried to help her, or tried to persuade their father against the betrothal.

Since her family didn't care about her, why should she worry about their dishonor?

I don't how 2nd born Ned could have "betrayed" her. I didn't read the scene as Ned trying to console her. Lyanna asked him a question (about Mya), it's not like Ned was volunteering the information. I always read the scene as Ned trying to console himself (torn loyalties between his sister and his best friend), and Lyanna trying to help him.

Ned seems sad about a lot of things (Aerys killing his father and older brother, Jaime killing Aerys, the Lannisters killing Elia et al), but not Lyanna being with Rhaegar, so I always assumed that was her choice.

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I don't how 2nd born Ned could have "betrayed" her. I didn't read the scene as Ned trying to console her. Lyanna asked him a question (about Mya), it's not like Ned was volunteering the information. I always read the scene as Ned trying to console himself (torn loyalties between his sister and his best friend), and Lyanna trying to help him.

Ned remembers trying to console Lyanna, on the night her father promised her hand to Robert.

Ned definitely uses the words "console her."

And Lyanna doesn't ask about Mya, she just mentions that Robert has a child in the Vale, she is aware of it.

Ned doesn't even try confronting his father to tell him that Lyanna doesn't want to marry Robert (that's what I meant by betraying her). He could have tried, even as the 2nd son he might have some influence with Lord Rickon.

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Ned remembers trying to console Lyanna, on the night her father promised her hand to Robert.

Ned definitely uses the words "console her."

And Lyanna doesn't ask about Mya, she just mentions that Robert has a child in the Vale, she is aware of it.

Ned doesn't even try confronting his father to tell him that Lyanna doesn't want to marry Robert (that's what I meant by betraying her). He could have tried, even as the 2nd son he might have some influence with Lord Rickon.

Neither of them use the word "console"...the closest Ned comes is "assure". True, Lyanna just mentions Roberts bastard instead of formally asking a question, but Ned thinks that he won't lie and deny it.

There really isn't much on the timeline as to whether Lyanna was betrothed to Robert before or after Harrenhall, but Rhaegar was married, so it's unlikely Ned could persuade his father to give Lyanna to him either way. And who knows...maybe Ned actually believed Robert loved Lyanna and would change.

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First, let me say that I'm an R+L=J believer. It seems the most likely theory, given the information we know right now. But what if there is another possibility?

Specifically, what if one of Jon's parents was a Dayne? Think about it: What if Jon's parents are Rheagar and Ashara Dayne? That still allows for all of the ramifications of his being a Targ, but it also opens the possibility for him to be the Sword of the Morning.

I know it's probably unlikely, and it leaves a lot of unanswered questions about what happened to Lyanna, but it might make for an interesting revelation, given his position on the wall...

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