Jump to content

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread, Part II


Werthead

Recommended Posts

Are we certain - well, there is speculation of that; however the people in the book are certain that it was Aegon that was killed - that has been confirmed in the books by different sources though I suppose that doesn't make it necessarily true. I don't have the books with me, but I believe that it was described that Tywin presented two little bodies to Robert - with the head smashed in as it was, who knows though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

He describes Rhaegar but not the woman, so she could be Lyanna. Now, what if this child Aegon is actually Jon? How do you pronounce Aegon? (I say it with a hard G sound, making it ae-jon). It would then make sense how Ned named Jon.

This isn't really a new revelation, but it would still be another cool sign pointing to Jon's parents.

Based on the nearly ubiquitous reference to "Dunk and Egg", I assume it's 'egg-on', although, Egg shaves his head bald, so that could justify Egg.

Also, if pronounced your way, we have the 'Asians' from the east conquering the west...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not sure if this has been noticed before, but I thought I'd bring it up. First of all, notice that once again Martin makes the woman with Rhaegar ambiguous:

'The man had her brother’s hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. “Aegon,†he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?†' (ACoK, in the House of Undying)

He describes Rhaegar but not the woman, so she could be Lyanna.

GRRM has confirmed that the woman in that vision is Elia.

From The Citadel:

The fifth room shows Rhaegar and Elia with the newborn Aegon, as confirmed my Martin.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Besides. The NW can always visit gulltown so even his vows don't mean he'd be a monk.

So, if it's okay to break part of his vows, why not all?

This is the reasoning I don't understand; almost everyone in the NW simply disregards the inconvenient part of the vow, so what is all that about how awful it is to break the vow and run away? :rolleyes:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The vow says they won't love or father children, IIRC. Few men love whores, and most whores can prevent themselves from getting pregnant.

So I never saw why people think meaningless sex is a breaking of the vow. (Which they clearly do, albeit a minor, necessary breakage.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mercenary relationships can evolve into something more, sometimes almost despite the principals. Accidents can happen. Catholic priests are supposed to be celibate, but that did not stop a lot of medieval popes from lavishing church resources on "nephews", or indeed in extreme cases attempting to create principalities for them to rule.

So while turning a blind eye to whoring is probably wise, giving it official sanction would be a step to far IMO. An official whore could easily turn into a mistress.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The vow says they won't love or father children, IIRC. Few men love whores, and most whores can prevent themselves from getting pregnant.

So I never saw why people think meaningless sex is a breaking of the vow. (Which they clearly do, albeit a minor, necessary breakage.)

That's true - the vow does not say anything about pure physical sex:

"Hear my words, and bear witness to my vow.

Night gathers and now my watch begins.

It shall not end until my death.

I shall take no wife,

hold no lands,

father no children.

I shall wear no crowns and win no glory.

I shall live and die at my post.

I am the sword in the darkness.

I am the watcher on the walls.

I am the fire that burns against the dark,

the horn that wakes the sleepers,

the shield that guards the realms of men.

I pledge my life to the Night's Watch,

for this night and all the nights to come."

I think that the spirit of the vow is that it is a vow of abstinence and probably was originally adhered to, but in letter it is not. Purely physical can change over time but I got the impression that while Moles Town was near by it still was far enough away that getting there often was difficult because of the other responsibilities the NW men had, reducing the chance that someone would take it to the next level.

As far as if you're breaking one part, why not all - in practice, no one gets their head removed because they are paying "the dwarfs penny" (I know, that's only in KL) but they do get their head removed if they are caught deserting.

This is the Jon parentage thread though, not the vow being a vow thread so I'll stop there...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I for one will think much better of Jon if he walks away from the Night Watch at the first opportunity.

Otherwise, he might as well be Ned Stark's son, because staying there will prove he's as big an idiot as his father ever was!

Although, to be fair, even Ned felt guilty about shipping off the boy to waste his life on that wall. But it was expedient, and Ned often did the expedient at the expense of his conscience ( Lady and Micah, etc.).

Anyway, if Jon does choose to honor that vow, he'll get what he deserves in living a life of sheer misery in the Westeros version of a Siberian gulag.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, I also would love to see Jon find some opportunity to protect the Realm against the Others in a capacity removed from the LC of the NW. There's nothing for him in the NW, if the Others are supposed to be as grave a threat as GRRM would have us believe from 2 prologues, there's no way the meager NW will fend off the threat without a serious injection from another power -- dragons maybe? And if Dany's dragons torch the Others, then there's really no point to have Jon around, even if he does turn out to be a rider. And if the Wall was built specifically to forfend the Others, then let the magic of the Wall do its thing!

I hope GRRM doesn't make Jon as obstinately stupid about vows and honor as his alleged father, Ned Stark. Ned Stark was honorable to a fault, but I think Jon is learning that certain vows, certain promises have to be sacrificed for the sake of others.

Anyway, all this is way off-topic....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

on the other hand GRRM his an out for Jon thought what the halfhand told him that "honour and vows mean NOTHING so long as the relm is save" if become King in the north or claiming the Iron throne will help save the relm I think Jon MAY do it (If he does I hope the end will be "..and King Jon was kill in the tink press of the Others" not that I don't like Jon but I don't want a fairy story ending)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

(I confess I've not got the patience to read through all the previous pages of this topic (and its predecessor), so apologies if this has been brought up before…)

First off, I do think that the evidence for R+L=J is pretty compelling and overall I'm inclined to think this is the most likely theory, but there is one thing gives me pause. One of the most attractive aspects of R+L=J is that Stark=Ice and Targaryen=Fire, so it would make sense for their union to produce the PWWP, "his is the song of ice and fire" etc. The problem is, though, that if this is Jon, then surely he ought to show influences of both ice and fire, but he doesn’t. Instead, he is exclusively associated with the Starks/ice, to an extent greater than anyone else in the books. Consider:

- he has very strong Stark looks

- he has a direwolf companion; not just any direwolf, in fact, but one with “fur as white as snowâ€. The whole description of Ghost at the end of ASOS is quite relevant here - “he had a weirwood’s eyes…blood and bone like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this oneâ€.

- he is also a warg; an ability which some of the other Stark children share, but which seems to be more usually associated with the wildlings and the far north

- at the end of ASOS, Jon is presented with a straight choice between ice (the NW) and fire (R’hllor), and he chooses the former (and it’s the sight of Ghost, reminding him of snow and the old gods, that helps him make the decision).

None of these factors is all that compelling on its own, but I think the cumulative effect is significant. Of course, it’s possible that the “fire†side of his character will only be awakened later on, but it seems strange that we’ve seen no sign of it so far. All this doesn’t necessarily contradict R+L=J of course, but it does make it harder for me to believe he’s the PWWP.

As a side note, I also have two questions about Ned’s trip to the Tower of Joy. First, do we know how he learns that’s where Lyanna is in the first place? And second, why does he only take 6 men with him? Surely it would have made sense to take more people. The most likely answer I think is that he must have known there was a baby there (or would be soon) and so could only take the men he could trust absolutely. Who told him though?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We don't know how he knew Lyanna was there. I think he took only 6 men because he didn't expect to meet any resistance--and you're right that he took only ones he could trust. Unless whoever told him Lyanna was at ToJ also told him she was pregnant, he wouldn't have been expecting a baby; if she did give birth shortly before Ned found her (as the description of her lying in a bed of blood seems to indicate), she wasn't pregnant with that child before she vanished from the north over a year previously.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well he did know that the three most dangerous members of the KG were still around, and we've also seen how dangerous traipsing around the country in the immediate aftermath of a civil war can be - I can't help thinking there must have been a reason why he took so few men with him. I suppose Barristan is one person who may have told him, and he might have known about Lyanna's pregnancy as well. Another possibility would be Varys - I doubt he would have told Ned directly, but he could certainly have got an anonymous message through to him one way or another.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We don't know how he knew Lyanna was there. I think he took only 6 men because he didn't expect to meet any resistance--and you're right that he took only ones he could trust. Unless whoever told him Lyanna was at ToJ also told him she was pregnant, he wouldn't have been expecting a baby; if she did give birth shortly before Ned found her (as the description of her lying in a bed of blood seems to indicate), she wasn't pregnant with that child before she vanished from the north over a year previously.

I think Ned knew exactly what he'd find, and specifically took only his friends. Actually, I think he likely had an army but went ahead for two reasons.

1) Few travel faster than many -- he wouldn't want to find out that he had just missed them.

2) He would want to control what others saw. His friends would back him on any lie, but an army would have to many mouths to silence.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I apologise if this has been discussed before, ive read most of this thread but not all.

But if the KG were protecting a pregnant Lyanna, why does Jaime not know? He was a member of the KG and we have a POV from him, his discussion with Cateyln, where he is assumed (by me at least) to be being truthful he doesn't say anything and actually refers to Jon as Neds bastard IIRC.

And wouldn't he mention it to his father or robert or somebody? He was hardly the most honourable of people (although he is getting better) so i can't imagine him protecting jon!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I apologise if this has been discussed before, ive read most of this thread but not all.

But if the KG were protecting a pregnant Lyanna, why does Jaime not know? He was a member of the KG and we have a POV from him, his discussion with Cateyln, where he is assumed (by me at least) to be being truthful he doesn't say anything and actually refers to Jon as Neds bastard IIRC.

And wouldn't he mention it to his father or robert or somebody? He was hardly the most honourable of people (although he is getting better) so i can't imagine him protecting jon!

Simple answer - there's no need for him to know nor is there anything that requires him to know in order for the story to make sense.

He never refers to having seen Lyanna at all, so it's probable (in my opinion) that she was never brought to Kings Landing and, as we know, Rhaegar was not there when Brandon Stark and company showed up. After that, Jaime is kept at KL the whole time to ensure Tywin's loyalty (oops!), so he'd have no knowledge of what Lyanna and Rhaegar were up to, especially as the prince is in the south (at least up until when he comes to take command after the Battle of the Bells). If Rhaegar said anything to Hightower or Dayne or Whent about Lyanna being pregnant, he easily could have told them "not to speak of it"; he also could have simply told them to guard Lyanna/the Tower of Joy against all comers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But if the KG were protecting a pregnant Lyanna, why does Jaime not know? He was a member of the KG and we have a POV from him, his discussion with Cateyln, where he is assumed (by me at least) to be being truthful he doesn't say anything and actually refers to Jon as Neds bastard IIRC.

And wouldn't he mention it to his father or robert or somebody? He was hardly the most honourable of people (although he is getting better) so i can't imagine him protecting jon!

News doesn't travel instantly in Westeros, and as soon as the other KG found out about the Kingslaying (about which they seem to know at the ToJ) I'm sure they removed Jaime from the loop.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

None of these factors is all that compelling on its own, but I think the cumulative effect is significant. Of course, it’s possible that the “fire†side of his character will only be awakened later on, but it seems strange that we’ve seen no sign of it so far. All this doesn’t necessarily contradict R+L=J of course, but it does make it harder for me to believe he’s the PWWP.

Since I've started a re-read, I've developed a hunch that Dany and Jon will "hook up" towards the end. Even if she is supposedly barren, it would at least be cousins marrying (assuming Snow is the son of Rhaegar), and some sort of "Ice/Fire" magic could explain the child, who then would be the PWWP. I know this a huge leap but, as I said, its just a hunch (and I apologize if this has already been put forth, but I just couldn't go through all twelve pages.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Since I've started a re-read, I've developed a hunch that Dany and Jon will "hook up" towards the end. Even if she is supposedly barren, it would at least be cousins marrying (assuming Snow is the son of Rhaegar), and some sort of "Ice/Fire" magic could explain the child, who then would be the PWWP. I know this a huge leap but, as I said, its just a hunch (and I apologize if this has already been put forth, but I just couldn't go through all twelve pages.)

Jon and Dany may well get together-whether romantically or in some other way remains to be seen. However, if they were to become romantically involved, it would be a relationship between an aunt and nephew. Rhaegar was Dany's oldest brother. Also, if R+L=J, then Jon is already a combination of "Ice and Fire", not simply "Ice" from the Stark side.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...