The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread, Part II

[Korax]

Also, if R+L=J, then Jon is already a combination of "Ice and Fire", not simply "Ice" from the Stark side.

Well that's my point, really. If R+L=J is true, then why is Jon so specifically and exclusively associated with ice?

Menino - I agree that Dany + Jon would seem to be the ideal combination of fire and ice, and therefore logical parents of the PWWP, but even aside from the incest and infertility issues there just won't be time for them to have a child who grows up to defeat the Others. Unless, of course, GRRM is going to spring a 15 year gap on us before the final book

[Doza]

If Jon = Stark = Ice and Dany = Targ = Fire then who is the third head of the dragon? I always assumed that fire = the dragons and whoever leads them vs. ice = the others.

[Bum]

If Jon = Stark = Ice and Dany = Targ = Fire then who is the third head of the dragon? I always assumed that fire = the dragons and whoever leads them vs. ice = the others.

Ghost's physical description => silver hair=ice , red eye=fire. Ghost is the promised one! He's the song of ice and fire!

[thomaswhigham]

In AGOT when Robert is dying, Ned pities Robert. Anyone that reads that conversation will see that Ned is pitying Robert because he has erroneously loved lyanna (and believed in her love for him--that he would see her beyond the grave) even though she actually loved someone else.

[Caine]

A couple of clues that I see alluding to Jon's Fire side:

• When Jon rescues Mormont from a fire in AGOT, he comes away with a burnt hand. The rest of the series, Jon always finds opportunity to ball up that hand into a fist and then stretch. A small detail, and doesn't definitively prove a "fire" side, but I just found it interesting in connection to fire at the least, foreshadowing at best.
  
  
  
• When Jon trains or battles with his sword, there's a couple references to an uncanny blackout anger coupled with tapping into an overwhelming reservoir of strength and going berserk on his opponents. Awakening the dragon maybe?
  

Anyhow, I don't find it odd that Jon's "Ice" is more evident than his "Fire". Afterall, Jon was raised in Winterfell, Rhaegar was nicer breed of Targ than Viserys and his father, and the Stark appearance was more dominant when coupled with Rhaegar, a product of incest.

Didn't Rhaegar's children with Elia take more after Elia?

[Arioch]

If Jon = Stark = Ice and Dany = Targ = Fire then who is the third head of the dragon? I always assumed that fire = the dragons and whoever leads them vs. ice = the others.

I always thought Rhaegar and Lyanna were the Fire and Ice. And, if Dany, Jon, and Bran end up as the riders, then its Fire, Fire&Ice, and Ice.

[Nightstar]

Yes, honor is stupid and I hope Jon abandons that which he has finally come to terms with...

I don't see much honor associated with the Night Watch!

Look how they behaved at Craster's, murdering their host and raping his women.

Not much different from Old Frey, was it?

And, how many stay because of honor? They mostly stay because it's a death sentence to leave.

When Jon tries to spout that there's honor staying on the wall, even Tyrion tells him to open his eyes and see the Night Watch for what it truly is- the sole alternative to death for most of its men, and maybe not the better choice.

[Starkess]

I don't see much honor associated with the Night Watch!

Look how they behaved at Craster's, murdering their host and raping his women.

Not much different from Old Frey, was it?

And, how many stay because of honor? They mostly stay because it's a death sentence to leave.

When Jon tries to spout that there's honor staying on the wall, even Tyrion tells him to open his eyes and see the Night Watch for what it truly is- the sole alternative to death for most of its men, and maybe not the better choice.

You think murdering Craster and raping the women was an act of the Night Watch? I don't. I see it as an act of individuals, reflecting on their own personal honor.

I see it as similar to the military, which I consider to be an honorable career, but that doesn't mean I think the Abu Ghraib stuff was okay just because it was military personnel doing it.

So as a whole, the entity of the Night Watch I find to be honorable, the idea of giving up their lives and wives for the defense of all Westeros. Reading the words of the vow always gives me goosebumps because it means a lot to me.

Also, Jon has found his own honor in deciding to keep his vows. Together with the fact that I think the NW itself is honorable, yes, I stand by my statement that Jon would be abandoning his honor and giving up on everything he has struggled to come to terms with if he left the Wall.

[Korax]

A couple of clues that I see alluding to Jon's Fire side:

• When Jon rescues Mormont from a fire in AGOT, he comes away with a burnt hand. The rest of the series, Jon always finds opportunity to ball up that hand into a fist and then stretch. A small detail, and doesn't definitively prove a "fire" side, but I just found it interesting in connection to fire at the least, foreshadowing at best.
  
• When Jon trains or battles with his sword, there's a couple references to an uncanny blackout anger coupled with tapping into an overwhelming reservoir of strength and going berserk on his opponents. Awakening the dragon maybe?
  

Anyhow, I don't find it odd that Jon's "Ice" is more evident than his "Fire". Afterall, Jon was raised in Winterfell, Rhaegar was nicer breed of Targ than Viserys and his father, and the Stark appearance was more dominant when coupled with Rhaegar, a product of incest.

Didn't Rhaegar's children with Elia take more after Elia?

I admit that Jon using fire to kill the wight could be evidence of that part of his nature, but it's noticeable that he's very badly burned by the fire - as I remember it, there are references to it through ACOK, and it almost seemed like GRRM was suggesting the burns lasted longer than normal. Compare to Dany, the "fire" character, who stands in the middle of a raging inferno and comes out unscathed - Jon seems to be the polar opposite.

[Thaune]

Personally, I don't but into the whole R + L = J thing....

Too complicated, people were bound to notice she was with child etc...

And Jon, GRRM said so many times, is his father's son and looks like Ned (him and Arya really). On the other hand, Rhaeger, Viserys, Dany... All silver haired, etc... I dunno, I just don't see it. Think the imagination got out of hand on this and people see what they want to see.

[Thaune]

In AGOT when Robert is dying, Ned pities Robert. Anyone that reads that conversation will see that Ned is pitying Robert because he has erroneously loved lyanna (and believed in her love for him--that he would see her beyond the grave) even though she actually loved someone else.

From what I remember, he pities him cos Robert doesn't know his children were in fact of Jaime's seed.

Nothing in that scene leads me to add anything to the R + L = J theory.

[Shewoman]

Thaune--If Lyanna gave birth shortly before Ned found her at the end of the war, she wasn't pregnant with that child when she and Rhaegar disappeared before the war (which lasted a year or a bit more). As far as we know, no one except Rhaegar and any servants who were at the ToJ with them saw her until Ned got there.

Ned says that Jon and Arya look alike, and we're told that Arya looks like Lyanna.

In the Dunk and Egg stories, we see Targaryens who don't have the distinctive coloring.

[spacej]

(I confess I've not got the patience to read through all the previous pages of this topic (and its predecessor), so apologies if this has been brought up before…)

First off, I do think that the evidence for R+L=J is pretty compelling and overall I'm inclined to think this is the most likely theory, but there is one thing gives me pause. One of the most attractive aspects of R+L=J is that Stark=Ice and Targaryen=Fire, so it would make sense for their union to produce the PWWP, "his is the song of ice and fire" etc. The problem is, though, that if this is Jon, then surely he ought to show influences of both ice and fire, but he doesn’t. Instead, he is exclusively associated with the Starks/ice, to an extent greater than anyone else in the books. Consider:

- he has very strong Stark looks

- he has a direwolf companion; not just any direwolf, in fact, but one with “fur as white as snowâ€. The whole description of Ghost at the end of ASOS is quite relevant here - “he had a weirwood’s eyes…blood and bone like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this oneâ€.

- he is also a warg; an ability which some of the other Stark children share, but which seems to be more usually associated with the wildlings and the far north

- at the end of ASOS, Jon is presented with a straight choice between ice (the NW) and fire (R’hllor), and he chooses the former (and it’s the sight of Ghost, reminding him of snow and the old gods, that helps him make the decision).

None of these factors is all that compelling on its own, but I think the cumulative effect is significant. Of course, it’s possible that the “fire†side of his character will only be awakened later on, but it seems strange that we’ve seen no sign of it so far. All this doesn’t necessarily contradict R+L=J of course, but it does make it harder for me to believe he’s the PWWP.

As a side note, I also have two questions about Ned’s trip to the Tower of Joy. First, do we know how he learns that’s where Lyanna is in the first place? And second, why does he only take 6 men with him? Surely it would have made sense to take more people. The most likely answer I think is that he must have known there was a baby there (or would be soon) and so could only take the men he could trust absolutely. Who told him though?

Maybe Jon=Eddard+Lyanna, how's that about a crackpot theory?

Then the Ice+Fire <-> Jon+Daenerys would fit very well.

[Shewoman]

It's a crackpot theory that shows up around here at least once a month. Timeline problem: Lyanna vanishes from the north before the war starts and Ned is a general in the war (which means he's something of a public figure and people would notice if he was gone for several days). He and Catelyn became engaged shortly after Brandon's death and got married a month into the war. If Lyanna gave birth to a child shortly before Ned found her at ToJ, she wasn't pregnant with that child until after she disappeared and after Ned got married; the war lasted over a year. It's hard to see how Ned could have gotten to her in the time during which she would have had to conceive.

I don't think Ned would have left Lyanna in such isolation. Nor do I think he would have had a sexual relationship with anyone other than Cat after their betrothal since, if the woman became pregnant, he would be unable to marry her.

It's also hard to imagine Ned spending so much time dealing with the Lannister incest without thinking at some point that this impinges on his own experience a trifle.

The KG, of course, are a problem in any case, but it's VERY difficult to see what they'd be doing at ToJ if there was no Targaryen involvement at all.

There's also the things Dany says about “Rhaegar battling the Usurper . . . and dying for the woman he loved†(that one's on GoT pp. 30-31).

[Ran]

This is a preliminary draft of a document for the Westeros.org FAQ. Obviously, it's stuff that's been argued again and again and again, and we do not expect this to settle anything. However, it presents the views of Westeros.org on the matter, and provides people who are considering the question some pointers to various details and pieces of information so that they can come to their own conclusions. We figured we'd put it up for comment, especially in any obvious errors. Perhaps the most important point is that we take as factual GRRM's statement of the relation of Jon's birth in relation to Daenerys's and the fact that it strongly implies that some of the stories we get in the books contradict this; we believe this implies a purposeful attempt to obfuscate the date of Jon's birth.

The question of Jon Snow's parentage is a complex one. In this article, we propose to tackle it by laying out what facts we know of his birth and its timing in relation to the war and then surveying the potential parents in terms of where they were likely to be at the time of his conception. We will then focus on the possible pairings to see which are the likeliest. This article will make heavy reference to the FAQ entry on Robert's Rebellion:

We know from this e-mail that Jon's birth is 8-9 months prior to Danaerys's, and that Daenerys is born almost precisely 9 months after the death of Rhaegar and the Sack of King's Landing (I: 25). This would place Jon's birth within one month, give or take, of the Sack. As we know the war lasts "close" to a year which is often just referred to as a "year" (I: 96, 233), suggesting 10-11 months is likelier than 9 months. Given this, his conception seems to have been between 1-3 months into the war. Interestingly, this contradicts suggestions from Catelyn and Ned that Jon was concieved some time after Robb's conception (in itself an event taking place several months into the war), so either GRRM is mistaken or he has accidentally clarified a piece of information which was intended to be obfuscated in the series (I: 54, 92). Our own view is that the latter is the case, as GRRM is rather precise about the relative birthdates in a way that seems too absolute to be a random error.

Finally, considering the genetics of the series and Jon's very Stark-like features -- grey eyes, brown hair, long face -- it seems safe to suppose that any viable theory must include a minimum of one Stark in the equation, or one person whose features are similar to a Stark's. A common point of reference in some discussions has been the tournament at Harrenhal, which seems to have happened a minimum of several months prior to the war, and for purposes of the discussion is unimportant beyond noting that due to the timing Jon Snow could not have been concieved there.

Examining the locations of potential mothers and fathers in light of the above may be helpful.

* Wylla: Now a servant of House Dayne, and possibly such even at the time of the war, the general belief is that she must have been in the company of Lady Ashara Dayne to be Jon's mother. If this is the case, the question is where Lady Ashara could have been approximately 1-3 months into the war. What we might say is that they do not appear to have been in King's Landing, at least, at this time due to the fact that it would certainly be a noticeable discrepancy with the publicly-accepted notion that the child is Eddard Stark's. For this to be plausible, the women must have been in some less known location which Eddard Stark could plausibly have reached roughly around the time of the child's conception. It is also possible that Wylla did not enter the service of House Dayne until some time during or even after the war, which would make her location much more difficult to pin down. Wylla's appearance is unknown.

* Ashara Dayne: As above, we seem to be able to safely say they were not at King's Landing, at least, for the belief that Ashara Dayne is Jon Snow's mother to be generally considered plausible. Moreover, one can infer from previous remarks from GRRM that Ashara Dayne was not a companion of Elia's in the last year of her marriage, at minimum (SSC), which would coincide with the war. Ashara Dayne is described as fair-haired and violet-eyed, as her brother Ser Arthur was and as her nephew Lord Edric is.

* Lyanna Stark: Lyanna's location in all this is fairly well-known: with Rhaegar. We know Rhaegar, at least, was not in King's Landing (II: 582) at the apparent start of the war and it seems probable that Lyanna was not there either. It's later said that Rhaegar "returned from the south" towards the end of the war (III: 418), and certainly that is Lyanna's final location (I: 354-355).

* Benjen Stark: Benjen spent the war in Winterfell (SSC).

* Robert Baratheon: Robert appears to have been with Eddard in the Vale when the war began (I: 21), and then went from the Vale to Storm's End -- probably by sea -- which would have taken time. Certainly, two months into the war he was either on his way to Storm's End or in its vicinity, and by four months into the war he was likely fighting his way across the Seven Kingdoms towards the riverlands. It should also be noted that Robert clearly believes Jon is Eddard Stark's bastard son.

* Howland Reed: Howland Reed's precise location is unknown. In all likelihood he was at the Neck in the first months of the war, and then would have come down with Lord Eddard's forces. One possibility, however, has been that he was one of the ones who first reported Rhaegar's alleged crime against House Stark, suggesting he was in Lyanna's vicinity at the time. Howland Reed's appearance is unknown, although his children have brown hair and green eyes.

* Arthur Dayne: While Dayne's precise location is not explicitly noted except at the very end of the war, when he was at the tower of joy (I: 354-355), it seems probable that as Prince Rhaegar's closest friend and companion that he likely accompanied Rhaegar from the start of the war until Rhaegar departed for King's Landing and the Trident. This would mean he spent the entire time with Lyanna. Like Ashara and Edric, he appears to have been fair-haired and violet-eyed.

* Aerys Targaryen: Clearly, King Aerys spent all of his time in King's Landing during the war.

* Eddard Stark: Eddard appears to have been with Robert in the Vale when the war began (I: 21), and then went from the Vale to the North -- probably by sea -- and from there on to Winterfell, which would have taken time. In all likelihood, Lord Stark did not come down south of the Neck again until several months into the war. By the fourth or fifth month of the war, he and his forces were likely in the riverlands.

* Rhaegar Targaryen: Until he is recalled "from the south" (III: 418) it is widely supposed that Rhaegar was always with Lyanna Stark at this time.

What can we make of this?

* Benjen Stark: Besides being quite young, his being located in Winterfell throughout the war makes it practically impossible for him to be Jon Snow's father, especially in relation to Lyanna whose location was obviously with Rhaegar at the time of Jon's conception.

* Robert Baratheon: Not Jon's father. He could not be Jon's father by Ashara Dayne, for one thing, due to the appearances of the prospective parents not fitting the Stark look at all. He could not be Jon's father by Wylla, because the name means nothing more to him than the alleged woman who fathered Eddard Stark's bastard -- it seems he probably never even met her, which makes sense since Eddard and Robert were likely moving to their respective domains and therefore were apart if Wylla is the mother. Robert and Lyanna is the only possibility here, and this requires Robert to somehow come into intimate contact with Lyanna within 3 months of the beginning of the war. This very clearly did not happen. Finally, it does not fit with Eddard Stark's claim about Jon's relation to him, though this could be a lie. Robert Baratheon's black hair is a famously dominant trait, with Varys claiming that all of Robert's bastards that he knew of by a number of different mothers came out with it (II: 178), which makes it even more unlikely that he could be Jon Snow's father.

* Howland Reed: If Wylla is the mother, it raises the question of just why all the secrecy, as well as why Eddard would claim the child as his own and as being of his own blood. If Ashara Dayne is the mother, it seems somewhat less likely that Jon Snow could come out so clearly Stark in appearance, although not impossible if Howland Reed shares those features. However, again, it does raise the question of why Eddard claim the child as his own and as being of his own blood. Dorne seems relatively open to pre-marital relations and resulting bastardy, at least when compared to the Seven Kingdoms, so it seems its unlikely as an attempt to protect Lady Ashara's honor unless Howland has an very strict sense of honor. Finally, Howland Reed does not really seem possible as the father by Lyanna, as she was with Rhaegar and he almost certainly was not any further south than the Trident at the time of the conception. Since he would not have been in contact with Lyanna at the time of Jon Snow's apparent conception, he is ruled out.

* Arthur Dayne: Like Rhaegar, it's not impossible for Ser Arthur to have fathered the child on Wylla or Lyanna. That said, his place as a Kingsguard -- one who was considered one of the finest knights in the realm -- and Eddard's admiration seem to rule him out. There is also the question of why Eddard would claim the child as his own instead of revealing the truth.

* Aerys Targaryen: Ashara Dayne seems impossible, due to both having features quite different from the Starks, as well as the highly unlikely chance that she was in King's Landing at this time. The same can be said about Wylla, unless Wylla was not in the service of the Daynes at this time, but then the whole question of just why Eddard Stark would claim her child as his own blood seems very curious; presumably it would be to protect the child from Robert's hatred of Targaryens, but why passing the child off as his blood is a more natural and better choice than passing him off as some loyal soldier's or something such makes this seem very doubtful. Aerys with Lyanna is the only one that could certainly work genetically, although this would require her to be in King's Landing at around the time of conception, which does not seem to be the case. If she was with Rhaegar, she was not there when Brandon and his father were killed at what was essentially the start of the war, and she was not there by the last few months of the war. Could Rhaegar have brought her to King's Landing at some point between the start of the war and the conception? It seems improbable, given that the area of the first three months of the war eventually featured Robert and his forces in the stormlands on the move, making such journeys hazardous.

* Eddard Stark: Unless Wylla or Ashara Dayne were either in the Vale or the North in the first three months of the war, they cannot be Jon Snow's mother. That said, given that these two are considered plausible in the book, it seems they cannot be ruled out until we have more information on their locations. We do know that it has been put about that Wylla is the mother of Jon Snow, a fact that Eddard has implied and which she has apparently claimed while in Starfall (I: 92. III: 494), and certainly there is no great reason to doubt that she was at least at some point Jon Snow's wetnurse. This has implications for other candidates: they have to have had contact with Wylla at the same time that Eddard was alleged to have done so and we can therefore rule out Robert, Robert, and Aerys since they were not in the same locations as Eddard 1-3 months into the war. One problem with Eddard being the father by Wylla is that the lies that have haunted Eddard since the war's end (I: 96) do not make a great deal of sense -- other than perhaps allowing others to say that Rhaegar raped Lyanna if he knew that this was untrue, he would not seem to have to tell any particular lies. If Wylla is willing to share this sordid story with people at Starfall, it seems mindboggling that Eddard Stark would make a secret of it to the point of making it an issue that troubles his marriage to his wife (I: 55).

Jon being Eddard's son by Ashara Dayne runs into the same timeline problems, as she would have to have concieved the child 1-3 months into the war during which time Eddard Stark appears to have been in the Vale and the North.

Finally, there is Lyanna. Clearly, she was with Rhaegar at this time and could never have come into contact with her brother in that timeframe. Of course, Eddard is also improbable for a host of personal reasons, such as his apparent distaste for the incestuous union of Jaime and Cersei Lannister, his never thinking anything remotely like it, and so on.

* Rhaegar Targaryen: Given the detail mentioned above, if Wylla or Ashara are considered plausible mothers based on Eddard Stark's movements, then Rhaegar Targaryen would likely have to have been in the North or the Vale at the time for him to have fathered a child on either of them, a clear impossibility. Even if we suppose that the confusion of the war has made their locations uncertain, they would then certainly have to have been in the south (i.e., in the vicinity of Dorne) for this to work. This is reasonable enough, given that Ashara is Dornish, but Ashara and Rhaegar can probably be ruled out for genetic reasons. Wylla and Rhaegar could not be ruled out similarly, however, but it does raise the question of Eddard's claim to Jon. Finally, Rhaegar and Lyanna works best, because we have very strong evidence that he was actually with her in the entire timeframe of Jon Snow's conception, while at best there is supposition for all other candidates and in some cases significant periods of improbability.

Given the above, we believe the strongest candidates from the above timeline-focused analysis are Rhaegar and Lyanna, Eddard and Ashara, Eddard and Wylla. Robert Baratheon seems entirely ruled out of all the potential combinations, while Howland requires great amounts of supposition to explain certain details. Aerys Targaryen with Lyanna is very distantly possible, but there is no supporting evidence. There's also the speculative argument that since Jon Snow received a direwolf with Eddard Stark's children, that this at least proves one of his parents must be a Stark, which lends weight to ruling out or significantly discounting all those combinations of parents which do not include at least one Stark.

Of the three options mentioned above, it is widely held that Rhaegar and Lyanna are by far the likeliest. Besides the evidence above regarding the timeline, the fact that Lyanna would provide Jon the necessary genetics to come out with the Stark look, and the obvious reasons for why Eddard would claim Jon as being his own blood on such an occasion, there is some other speculative evidence in support of it. One piece of possible evidence that has had a strong impression is Daenerys's vision of a blue rose growing in the side of the wall (II: 515-516). As noted in the Prophecies section, this single reference appears to draw a direct connection between the story of Bael the Bard and the winter rose (in which a Stark daughter is stolen from the family, only to give the House a son by her lover), Lyanna Stark (who is associated with the blue winter roses and with Rhaegar), and Jon Snow (who is on the Wall). While it may simply be hinting at Jon's presence on the Wall, given the significance of the blue rose that we learn of in A Clash of Kings, we find it a promising piece of evidence.

There's also the cause of Lyanna's death. The smell of blood and the fever that Ned recalls (I: 35-36) can certainly be read as the aftermath of childbirth and ensuing fatal illness. This is certainly suggestive that Lyanna could have had a child. It has been proposed that Lyanna was actually killed by one of the Kingsguard, or perhaps even by her own hand, but both seem to speak against the fever Ned remembers and the former, at least, seems sharply at odds of Eddard's continuing admiration of Aerys's Kingsguard.

Finally, there are other small hints which are certainly open to interpretation but which all share plausible interpretations pointing to Jon's parents being Rhaegar and Lyanna, such as the juxtaposition of Lyanna's pleading with Sansa's in relation to the way Robert Baratheon responded to the deaths of the Targaryen children (I: 67), the presence of the Kingsguard which suggests they could have been protecting a possible heir to the throne (I: 354-355), Ned not listing Jon Snow among his children when thinking of what he would do to defend them (I: 406), and the fact that the Targaryens practiced bigamy which strengthens the possibility that a child by Rhaegar and Lyanna would be a legitimate heir to the throne (SSC). No other combination of persons really has the density of circumstancial evidence pointing towards it. While alone no single piece can provide a certain answer, the weight of them does make it seem very plausible.

Common objections to the "Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon" theory and brief responses to them:

* "It's obvious": There is extensive anecdotal evidence -- in the form of individuals new to the fandom expressing surprise when first introduced to the theory, because they themselves did not "connect the dots" -- that this is not true. Moreover, some alternative theories -- that Ned and Ashara or Ned and Wylla are Jon's parents -- are clearly far more "obvious", since they are the ones explicitly put forward in the series. If obviousness is a factor that matters, then we can rule those combinations out.

* "It's cliche": The response to this is that the basic idea is certainly cliche, but how it plays out is a complete mystery. If Martin turns it on his head by revealing that, yes, Jon is the "rightful heir" but that Jon is not going to become ruler (through death, politics, or choice), that adds another layer of complication and complexity to the story without playing out in a cliche manner. Jon could even end up ruling the Seven Kingdoms and it could be approached in a manner that rises above the underlying cliche. In the end, we simply do not know. What we do know is that the author often subverts fantasy tropes and cliches.

* "It makes Daenerys unimportant": The dragon has three heads, and has been something we've known since ACoK. Clearly, she is one of the heads of the dragon. If anything "intrudes" on this, it's by design, and probably what it really means is that the story is going to be more complex than just, "Daenerys is the great heroine who matters above and beyond everyone else."

* "It romanticizes Rhaegar and Lyanna": It can certainly lend itself to it. The author has pretty much played with notions of romantic tragedy from the start, with the beautiful image of the winter roses as a link between Lyanna and Rhaegar. That said, even if Lyanna is not Jon's mother, the fact is that clearly Rhaegar and Lyanna had some sort of relationship which did indeed lead to a horrible tragedy. Why it played out as it did, we don't know. We do have good reason to know why Rhaegar believed what he was doing was necessary, but certainly we can question the sanity of plunging a kingdom into war over some notion that you've deciphered a prophecy in which you (through your children) play a central role. But then, we've been told more than once about the loose relationship the Targaryens have with sanity.

SPOILER: ADwD

There are some additional wrinkles thanks to the Davos I chapter. Lord Godric is the first person in the series to present a clear opposition to what Eddard had claimed regarding Jon's birth date, by making it clear that Jon was conceived around the beginning of the war rather than towards the middle as Eddard (and Catelyn's thoughts) imply. Lord Godric could certainly be incorrect, but it's interesting that there's now in-book support for the dating GRRM gave by mail.

[Ser Bruce the Hound KG]

Also there is a Great deal of Imporantance put on the Fact that the Baratheon seed being strong. wich would make quite hard for Jon to look like mini-Ned. That fact is the Whole key behind taking down the Lannister and shoudl get a Meantion has to why Robert is most likly not Jon natural father. the seed is strong

[Shewoman]

Ran--I remember someone on the old forum said that you must have wallpapered your house with ASOIAF. It's true, isn't it?

What you've written clarifies a number of things very well. I can think of two areas that it might be good to touch on: 1) The clues in the text that suggest that Jon is not Ned's son (his direwolf is not with the others, "He's my blood!," Ned thinking about how he'd react to a child who threatened the rights of Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, and Rickon.) 2) The reason(s) why Ned would go to such lengths to keep the identity of Jon's mother a secret, even from Jon. It's hard for me to understand why Wylla would need protecting, for instance, given that she's apparently telling people at Starfall that she's Jon's mother (or at least allowing them to think so.) Ah--a third thing: given Wylla's behavior, what is her connection to Ned and Jon if she ISN'T Jon's mother?

[Ran]

Thanks for the remarks. Will incorporate them shortly.

[the silent speaker]

My biggest objections to R+L=J are as follows:

1. It trivializes the character development of Ned Stark by making him a cardboard caricature of Honor, in much the same way it lends itself toward making Rhaegar a cardboard caricature of Noble. This was the big stain on his honor, that he fathered a bastard. Don't take that away from him. It also lends itself toward romanticizing Rhaegar and Lyanna (OMG Rhaegar was a Special Noble Person he wouldn't do such a thing it must have been sekritly WOMANCE) but since it doesn't necessarily have to do so, I won't list that as a separate fatal objection.

2. It trivializes the hard choices made by Jon himself. In particular Stannis's offer of Winterfell has no bite if it wouldn't be Jon's by rights had he accepted.

3. Now that Jon's place is firmly established at the Wall, what pupose does it serve? Being his father's son has paradoxically allowed him to transcend being merely his father's son, if that makes any sense. At this point, his reaction to learning that he was Rhaegar and Lyanna'a chld would be near indifference. He's a man of the Night's Watch now.

4. In a world still haunted by prophecy and Others and the Doom of Valyria, to have the big mystery at the heart of the whole series be who secretly banged who seems so picayune.

5. It doesn't really explain how Ned lost it so badly when Catelyn mentioned Ashara Dayne. Ned demanded that that name never cross her lips again -- hardly a response one would expect of the famous Frozenheart. He should have been if anything pleased that the rumors he sowed were bearing fruit. I think it was his unpleasant breakup with Ashara Dayne (possibly those fatal words "if you ever really loved me" were uttered) that drove him in a fit of passion and rage to Wylla, which helps explain 1) why he would be so angry ar Ashara even years later; 2) what extraordinary circumstances there could have ben "to make Ned Stark forget his precious honor"; 3) why Ned Stark's bastard had a mother who was just some woman (as most of them are).

Also, I think the fact that Jon has a direwolf at all suggests that he really is Ned Stark's son. Dun wolves for the trueborns, and one white as Snow. Dragons are black on red.

[Sarella]

My biggest objections to R+L=J are as follows:

1. It trivializes the character development of Ned Stark by making him a cardboard caricature of Honor, in much the same way it lends itself toward making Rhaegar a cardboard caricature of Noble. This was the big stain on his honor, that he fathered a bastard. Don't take that away from him

I think the character development of Ned centres on the price of honour, not a stain on his honour. He made a promise to Lyanna and his honour insisted he keep it. This meant lying to his wife and king (among others), bringing Jon up thinking he is someone he is not, and living with everyone thinking he dishonoured himself by fathering a bastard. That is quite a price.

And in the end his honour cost him his life. That is the theme of Eddard Stark - the price of honour.

2. It trivializes the hard choices made by Jon himself. In particular Stannis's offer of Winterfell has no bite if it wouldn't be Jon's by rights had he accepted.

But Jon didn't know, so the choices were not any easier. In fact it adds to the drama. He agonised over Stannis' offer and even almost accepted it, which would have been a big mistake for a reason other than betraying his NW vows.

3. Now that Jon's place is firmly established at the Wall, what pupose does it serve? Being his father's son has paradoxically allowed him to transcend being merely his father's son, if that makes any sense. At this point, his reaction to learning that he was Rhaegar and Lyanna'a chld would be near indifference. He's a man of the Night's Watch now.

It will be a shock to Jon and to most readers (albeit not the most avid readers). A plot twist. Good writing.

What purpose does it serve? Jon will have to choose between his family (Dany) and the NW. This time it will be different because it is his true family, and Dany may need him more than Robb did.

It will also cause a change in Jon. All this time he thought he was a stain on Ned's honour, but he will realise that he isn't just a stain after all. That his father thought he was destined to save the realm and that is why he fathered him. That he is more than just Ned Stark's bastard.

4. In a world still haunted by prophecy and Others and the Doom of Valyria, to have the big mystery at the heart of the whole series be who secretly banged who seems so picayune.

Who says it is the big mystery? There are many other mysteries. Who is Azor Ahai/The prince who was promised? What force is driving the others and how are we going to defeat them? Who will sit on the iron throne at the end of the series?

5. It doesn't really explain how Ned lost it so badly when Catelyn mentioned Ashara Dayne. Ned demanded that that name never cross her lips again -- hardly a response one would expect of the famous Frozenheart. He should have been if anything pleased that the rumors he sowed were bearing fruit. I think it was his unpleasant breakup with Ashara Dayne (possibly those fatal words "if you ever really loved me" were uttered) that drove him in a fit of passion and rage to Wylla, which helps explain 1) why he would be so angry ar Ashara even years later; 2) what extraordinary circumstances there could have ben "to make Ned Stark forget his precious honor"; 3) why Ned Stark's bastard had a mother who was just some woman (as most of them are).

Ned may have loved Ashara but never acted on it. He would feel guilty talking about her with Cat. He also killed Ashara's brother, the noble sword of the morning. She is a sensitive topic - that's why Ned reacted so strongly.

Also, I think the fact that Jon has a direwolf at all suggests that he really is Ned Stark's son. Dun wolves for the trueborns, and one white as Snow. Dragons are black on red.

It could, but it could also suggest that he is part Stark (via Lyanna) but not really one of them.