The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread, Part II

[SFDanny]

SFDanny,

Untrue. The Velaryons do.

At the Event Horizon chat, I asked GRRM if the Daynes were of Targaryen or Valyrian lineage due to their appearance, and he basically responded that they were neither of Valyrian or Targaryen descent.

I do think it leaves open the possibility that they are of proto-Valyrian descent, though.

Oops, thanks. In further discussions I will say "one of the few" instead of "only." Doesn't change my point, but thanks for the correction.

[Ser Bruce the Hound KG]

At the Event Horizon chat, I asked GRRM if the Daynes were of Targaryen or Valyrian lineage due to their appearance, and he basically responded that they were neither of Valyrian or Targaryen descent.

I do think it leaves open the possibility that they are of proto-Valyrian descent, though.

or maybe it the other way on that is the Valyrian are descented from the Daynes

[Shewoman]

If there was a Maester present for the birth of Lyanna's child, what happened to him? If she died of childbed fever, why didn't the Maester stay with her until the end? She's alone when Ned finds her and I get the impression that she'd been neglected (if we're to interpret "bed of blood" literally and not just as an expression for childbed).

[SFDanny]

If there was a Maester present for the birth of Lyanna's child, what happened to him? If she died of childbed fever, why didn't the Maester stay with her until the end? She's alone when Ned finds her and I get the impression that she'd been neglected (if we're to interpret "bed of blood" literally and not just as an expression for childbed).

We don't know if there was anyone other than Lyanna, Ned, and Howland Reed at the Tower of Joy after the battle of Ned and company with the Kingsguard. I'm only suggesting that it would be normal to expect a Maester and probably a wet nurse to be in attendance of the birth of an aristocratic baby (such was the case concerning a maester with all of Ned and Catelyn's babies.) I realize this may not have been a "normal" circumstance. If, for instance, the party of the Kingsguard and Lyanna are running from the rebels and just happen to meet Ned and company at the Tower of Joy, it could mean they are unprepared for the birth or the birth had already happened. However, if the Tower of Joy is the hiding place for Lyanna since she and Rhaegar eloped, or he abducted her, then it makes sense that all the normal precautions, including a maester's presence, would be taken to safeguard Lyanna and her child(ren.)

I'm only suggesting that if the latter circumstance is the case, then a maester is likely to have been there, and it might explain Jaqen H'gar's presence at the Citadel. He is there to kill someone (Faceless Men aren't just spies - they're very expensive assassins) and a maester is the likely target. Why would a maester be targeted and why is Jaqen waiting around so long to make the kill. My only guess is he doesn't know for sure who is the target and is looking for more information. If all of this is true, then my crackpot theory gains at least a little credibility.

btw, any clues as to how Ned found Lyanna? Did someone at Storm's End tell him?

[Shewoman]

SF Danny--there's at least one other person there; in one of Ned's early POVs he remembers "them" finding him holding Lyanna's dead hand. We know Reed is one of "them."

Don't you think that if there were still a Maester there when the child came that Lyanna would be in better shape?

I wonder if it's possible that some or all of Rhaegar's staff at ToJ fled when they got the news of his death in battle.

[SFDanny]

SF Danny--there's at least one other person there; in one of Ned's early POVs he remembers "them" finding him holding Lyanna's dead hand. We know Reed is one of "them."

Yes, I've read that both in the books and in these pages, thanks for the correction.

Don't you think that if there were still a Maester there when the child came that Lyanna would be in better shape?

We are given at least two examples of high born women who die in childbirth, Aerys' Queen Rhaella and Tyrion's Mother the Lady Joanna, presumably both with maesters in attendance, so I don't think it means Lyanna would be in better shape. Childbirth deaths may well be one of the leading causes of death for women in Westeros. It would mirror the truth in our own ancient and medieval worlds.

I wonder if it's possible that some or all of Rhaegar's staff at ToJ fled when they got the news of his death in battle.

Certainly, it would be possible, but I'm making the assumption that Rhaegar and Lyanna (if she had a choice in the matter) would have some support staff with them, and some of their staff might well be as fanatically loyal as the kingsguard. In short, I think Ned was alone with Lyanna when she died, but I don't think that means there weren't others beyond Reed and one other at the Tower of Joy. Certainly, if there is a wet nurse there, it solves the problem of how did Ned care for a new infant(s) - assuming the babe(s) were there as well. After all, newborn infants want to eat quite regularly and a long journey to Starfall wouldn't seem possible without at least a wet nurse. Of course, none of which mandates the presence of a maester, but it doesn't rule it out either. I still want to know were Marwyn was at the time.

Regardless of when the Tower of Joy staff would have left, there is obviously the problem that any such people would be witness to Lyanna's condition. Perhaps one of them will lead to further disclosures about Lyanna later in the series. I think we all want to read a conversation with Wylla about this time.

[Symeon Star-Eyes]

Don't know if this parallel has been mentioned before...

In a Game of Thrones, Catelyn recalls asking Ned if Ashara Dayne is Jon's mother and getting the following response:

"Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood, and that is all you need to know." (p. 55)

In a Clash of Kings, Tyrion twice refers to Cersei's children in a similar way:

There was only one way Tommen would be king. No, he could not even think it. Joffrey was his own blood, and Jaime's son as much as Cersei's. (p. 453)

"Gods be good, Cersei, they're my own blood! What sort of man do you take me for?" (p. 585)

Perhaps this is a common way of referring to one's nephews?

[Jon Blackfyre]

Symeon, I like that catch. Maybe saying "my blood" doesn't mean exactly nephew, but it is a nice play on language if R+L=J.

Nice first post too.

[Shewoman]

Good catch--but Ned in using that phrase seems to me to be "claiming" Jon without outright lying to Catelyn. Certainly Cat doesn't understand him to be saying that Jon is his nephew, then or ever.

[Caine]

Tyrion is too clever for his own good. I like the parallel, thanks for pointing it out.

[Ser Bruce the Hound KG]

Symeon, I like that catch. Maybe saying "my blood" doesn't mean exactly nephew, but it is a nice play on language if R+L=J.

Nice first post too.

The was what push me over the eage

[The Wolf Maid]

Just a mention:

Did a (another) little poll on how people 'found out' or 'figured out' the whole R + L = J here. The results are:

For Option 1 we have a total of 17, while for Option 2 we have 31.

So it seems to me that R + L = J is not quite as obvious as some people have said.

and yay for Council Member.

[Symeon Star-Eyes]

Good catch--but Ned in using that phrase seems to me to be "claiming" Jon without outright lying to Catelyn. Certainly Cat doesn't understand him to be saying that Jon is his nephew, then or ever.

In Ned's defense, it really is such an obvious plot twist.

But then, Hoster Tully didn't raise very bright children. (see Arryn, Lisa and Tully, Edmure).

[Mor Vilkacis]

well, as you can see from the number of my posts, im dont post/discuss this book a lot...at all till now, so i didnt start thinking about R+L=J till now.

something acurred to me, about Wylla not being able to be Jon's mother, but it seems this probability is still strongly advocated by some 1000+ posters so i'm probably wrong with this, just wanna know where:

while she was supposedly carrying Jon, Wylla was in KL/ToJ/Dorne

in this time, war was raging, and after marrying Cat, Ned was nowhere near those places where Wylla was untill the very ending - to late to be the father of her child.

before the wedding, he was in the North, gathering his bannermen, and before that he was in the Vale, Vale under a blockade...

im not sure about the timeline, but sounds like this all (Vale, blockade,North,wedding,war,ToJ) lasted lot more than 9 months.

[Mezeh]

Don't know if this parallel has been mentioned before...

In a Game of Thrones, Catelyn recalls asking Ned if Ashara Dayne is Jon's mother and getting the following response:

In a Clash of Kings, Tyrion twice refers to Cersei's children in a similar way:

Perhaps this is a common way of referring to one's nephews?

There are other examples. For one Stannis calls Edrik Storm his blood also. Yet “my blood†fits for all blood relatives including children as well. So Ned’s statement could mean anything and states only the obvious fact that Jon indeed has Stark blood in his veins.

[Mezeh]

well, as you can see from the number of my posts, im dont post/discuss this book a lot...at all till now, so i didnt start thinking about R+L=J till now.

something acurred to me, about Wylla not being able to be Jon's mother, but it seems this probability is still strongly advocated by some 1000+ posters so i'm probably wrong with this, just wanna know where:

while she was supposedly carrying Jon, Wylla was in KL/ToJ/Dorne

in this time, war was raging, and after marrying Cat, Ned was nowhere near those places where Wylla was untill the very ending - to late to be the father of her child.

before the wedding, he was in the North, gathering his bannermen, and before that he was in the Vale, Vale under a blockade...

im not sure about the timeline, but sounds like this all (Vale, blockade,North,wedding,war,ToJ) lasted lot more than 9 months.

Actually there is a very good summary at Citadel including all possible and even supposed parents:

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/..._Snows_parents/

The theory indeed looks very likely and all of objections are pretty weak yet…

It gives a very good explanations for all facts but the one. Lady Ashara Dayne suicide. Afraid this remind me a story with 19th century physics that perfectly explained all but one observed facts.

[Thoheeks Bili]

Wow..............nice summation!

" It is Known" !!

My Axe............quickly!

[Mor Vilkacis]

Wow..............nice summation!

well, i wouldnt agree...reading that article was really a waste of time....

it doesnt say anything, lots of useless maybes and even more useless pairings - like Lyanna + Ned/Robert... - Lyanna was with Rhaegar at the time!!!

[Sarella]

It gives a very good explanations for all facts but the one. Lady Ashara Dayne suicide.

I think the hint for this is in the story Meera tells Bran in ASOS about the Knight of the Laughing Tree. In this "story" about the tourney at Harrenhal, a maid with laughing purple eyes (Ashara Dayne) danced with a white sword (Ser Arthur Dayne), some others, and finally the quiet wolf (Eddard Stark) after the wild wolf (Brandon Stark) said a word on his behalf.

Ashara no doubt loved her brother Ser Arthur. And there is a hint of some romance between Ashara and Ned, so perhaps they were in love.

So when Ned returns to Ashara at the end of the war, having married Catelyn, and having killed Ser Arthur, I can see why Ashara would be upset enough to commit suicide.

[Sarella]

I'd just like to add this little hint that L+R=J because I don't think it has been mentioned yet in this thread.

Jon tells Sam that he has a recurring dream where he is walking through Winterfell looking for someone. But he can't find anyone and every room is empty. Then he always finds himself at the crypts, and knows he has to go down there but doesn't want to. He screams that he is not a Stark and this is not his place. He's afraid of what is waiting for him. Not the old Kings of Winter, but something else. He feels he has to go down, so he starts. It gets darker and darker, until he wants to scream, and then he wakes up.

He is looking for Lyanna but doesn't know it yet.