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The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread, Part II


Werthead

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I will discredit myself by saying that I blitzed through book 3 w/ an unreasonable speed. I read the last 600 pages in the span of an afternoon and late night. Does not lend itself to much retention so I actually have no recollection of Dany seeing the blue flower at all.

Also, I certainly realized that what I find utterly convincing about the direwolf pups could be laughable and next to irrelevant to others and I appreciate that you two dont accord it the weight that I do. I still think there is something there. I am wholly convinced that the fact the direwolf pups were actually brothers and sisters proves that Jon is such to the other Stark children.

While there is obviously opportunity for Jon to be the son of Ned's sister, I guess that I dont understand anyone disproving (and again I said I only glanced at some of the posts that occupy the preceding 17 pages and never saw the first thread ever) that Jon could be Ned's son. Ned says he is and I cannot recall any facts that disprove it.

One final bit about the direwolf pups is that GRRM really does a fantastic job of having his analogies and symbolism - the ones that come to mind though I'd love to hear ones to the contrary - be true on all fronts. For example Jon's wolf is white. Well, that proves, obviously, that he is different. But Jon's wolf was also a brother to the rest. I realize after typing this what a sophomoric example of my point it makes but I still maintain that GRRM keeps his symbolism true in every event and that it simply wouldnt make a ton of sense to say: "Jon was the son of L+R but uh...his direwolf...was still shown to be a brother to all the rest of the cubs..." It just strikes me as incomplete and inconsistent. Not GRRM style.

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IWhile there is obviously opportunity for Jon to be the son of Ned's sister, I guess that I dont understand anyone disproving (and again I said I only glanced at some of the posts that occupy the preceding 17 pages and never saw the first thread ever) that Jon could be Ned's son. Ned says he is and I cannot recall any facts that disprove it.

I don't have exact citations available, but there is a veritable cottage industry in these boards that points out incidents in which Ned thinks about or refers to Jon in a suspicious sort of way. Like when Catelyn remembers asking Ned about Jon and Ashara Dayne, and Ned says something like "He is my blood and that is all you need to know." Ned calling him his blood and not his son is one of the commonly held evidence points for R+L=J.

There's also Ned sitting in the dungeons in AGOT, going over the mental checklist of his children, and somehow not including Jon in the list.

So you may find it difficult to find occasions where Ned, in his words or thoughts, specifically calls Jon his son.

ETA: I can certainly understand not wanting to slog through 17 pages of posts, but if you like, the Citadel has a summary of the relevant discussion points about Jon Snow's parentage:

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/2291/

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Dante - thanks for the post and for the comments. Until I finally re-read thes series (which is difficult to commit myself to as there are so many thousands of books in print...although admittedly I have never in my life read a book as amazing GRRM's other than the Bible) I can only argue w/ a limited degree of credibility and w/ an ever present admission and readiness to being disproven.

I am going to adhere to my thoughts about Jon being the son of Ned b/c I put so much weight onto GRRM symbolism. However, I fully admit that your points (which I had forgotten were made in the series) hold incredible weight and I would not be surprised to discover that Jon has Targaryen blood in him.

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Also, I certainly realized that what I find utterly convincing about the direwolf pups could be laughable and next to irrelevant to others and I appreciate that you two dont accord it the weight that I do. I still think there is something there. I am wholly convinced that the fact the direwolf pups were actually brothers and sisters proves that Jon is such to the other Stark children.

This is an interesting perspective, and valuable I think... I have a couple things to say though.

1.) Remember "The Stallion That Mounts the World"! Tons of symbolism, prophecy, etc, etc all pointed to the same thing -> that Dany's son would conquer Westeros, reunite the 7 kingdoms, defeat the Others, and rule as king beginning the new Targaryn dynasty... But GRRM absolutely allowed that prophecy to be broken! Instead, it will likely be fulfilled in another way (Dany herself will rule). So... it is very much in GRRM's style to modify prophecy/sign/symbolism as events occur.

2.) remember that Jon's pup was found quite far apart from the others. It is assumed by everyone that this pup had the same mother as the others, but maaaaaaybe it's actually not??? I've never thought about it, but if we want to stick to strict symbolism, there's a possibility that Ghost was left by some other Dire Wolf (even a sister heh) and in fact is not brother to the other pups.

Realize too that regardless of what they say, there is currently no hard evidence proving or disproving Jon's parentage one way or another. The reason people believe R+L = J is because of circumstantial evidence (how convincing you find this evidence will depend on you). The idea is that some time in the future books there will be a "revelation" of Jon's parentage, however there is also a contingent of readers that would actually prefer it remain unresolved!

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Dante - thanks for the post and for the comments. Until I finally re-read thes series (which is difficult to commit myself to as there are so many thousands of books in print...although admittedly I have never in my life read a book as amazing GRRM's other than the Bible) I can only argue w/ a limited degree of credibility and w/ an ever present admission and readiness to being disproven.

I am going to adhere to my thoughts about Jon being the son of Ned b/c I put so much weight onto GRRM symbolism. However, I fully admit that your points (which I had forgotten were made in the series) hold incredible weight and I would not be surprised to discover that Jon has Targaryen blood in him.

I've become a believer in the R+L=J theory but I can still acknowledge that it is merely a very interesting theory. Sometimes I do forget myself and kind of assume it to be true when I'm discussing the series with people.

Cheers, and let us know what you think once you get around to your re-read (perhaps a re-read might be occasioned when ADWD comes out?).

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One final bit about the direwolf pups is that GRRM really does a fantastic job of having his analogies and symbolism - the ones that come to mind though I'd love to hear ones to the contrary - be true on all fronts. For example Jon's wolf is white. Well, that proves, obviously, that he is different. But Jon's wolf was also a brother to the rest. I realize after typing this what a sophomoric example of my point it makes but I still maintain that GRRM keeps his symbolism true in every event and that it simply wouldnt make a ton of sense to say: "Jon was the son of L+R but uh...his direwolf...was still shown to be a brother to all the rest of the cubs..." It just strikes me as incomplete and inconsistent. Not GRRM style.

GRRM's symbolism is rarely exact. In fact I can't think of one time it has been exact or true on all fronts. E.g. the mother direwolf was killed by a stag (it had an antler stuck in its throat). It foreshadows Ned's death as a result of being Robert's Hand.

But if we applied the same logic to it as you have to the pups, we'd have to say that because it is a mother direwolf, it must refer to Catelyn, not Ned. It must foreshadow a Baratheon killing Catelyn Stark. And the pups/children must all be Catelyn's, meaning that Jon is Catelyn's son too!

Anyway, if you bear in mind the possibility of L+R=J on a re-read, hints will jump out at you everywhere. For example, Dany has a vision of a blue flower on the wall. Blue flowers are Lyanna's flowers. They made up the crown that Rhaegar crowned her queen of love and beauty with, the flowers she was holding as she lay dying in front of Ned. The vision of the blue flower on the wall indicates that somebody on the wall is linked to Lyanna.

Lyanna died in a bed of blood saying "promise me, Ned". Then Ned returns to Winterfell with a babe. Seems reasonable that Lyanna died in childbirth and made Ned promise to look after the babe, doesn't it? If it wasn't childbirth, what on earth did Lyanna die of? And what did she make Ned promise?

Why were there three of the Kingsguard guarding the Tower of Joy (where Ned found Lyanna dying) if there was not a member of the royal family inside? Or was there a member of the royal family there - Rhaegar's son, Jon?

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Dammit Sarella...you have some really awesome points. Its not so much that I mind being proven wrong or that I even have been but...only a fool would say that my point (singular) has more weight than your points (plural). After reading that and after a re-read I'll truly re-evaluate my position. I appreciate people at least giving my direwolf pup argument a nod but...I just dont know.

One thing that DOES bother me though is fine, GRRM makes Jon the product of L+R. Also, please reference the post created by me. I maintain that Jon will hook up w/ Dany. I mean, damn, I just really, really believe it. While that would hold pretty true to the Targaryen tradition of sibling lovin' and would do nothing to "ruin" the story for me, I just so very much love the Starks that I would like a "pure" member of their bloodline to represent one of the parties in the new royalty I claim will come into existence. That's why...and I'm going to put a spoiler alert here in case anyone hasnt read book 3

When I saw Robb marching off to war I didnt know for sure what to expect but I had hoped he'd become king of all of Westeros. But...in one of the most over the top scenes I've ever seen in my life...he got taken out.

Back to my point, we are dealing now w/ nothing other than my personal preferences. Simply stated, I would be disappointed if 1) L+R=J and then if 2) my theory that Jon and Dany will ultimately rule Westeros as king and queen come true. But that's just me.

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Back to my point, we are dealing now w/ nothing other than my personal preferences. Simply stated, I would be disappointed if 1) L+R=J and then if 2) my theory that Jon and Dany will ultimately rule Westeros as king and queen come true. But that's just me.

To be honest, even though I believe the theory to be true, I'd be a little disappointed if it turned out to be true. I love ASOIAF for its subversion of fantasy archetypes, but Jon being revealed to be the lost child of a royal/powerful bloodline (a la Luke Skywalker) would be a little... predictable for my tastes.

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I think it's possible to understand the direwolves as being there for Stark kids--not necessarily just Ned's kids. And it is an important part of the symbolism that Jon's wolf is not with the others; that distinguishes it from them.

Quotes are from Game of Thrones:

43-4 Ned's POV: Robert said to Ned in reference to Rhaegar: “In my dreams I kill him every night.†There was nothing Ned could say to that. '" Really? If Rhaegar had kidnapped Ned's much-loved sister who died as a result and Robert had avenged her, I think there'd be quite a lot Ned could say to that. This suggests to me that he doesn't agree with Robert's assessment of the situation.

115: Ned ““He had lived his lies for 14 years, yet they still haunted him at night.†Jon's 14 at this point. What has Ned been "lying" about for this long?

199: Ned “He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once.†This is when Sansa's begging for her direwolf's life. What did Lyanna plead for?

266-7Jon's POV: Dream of finding Winterfell empty, ruined, being forced to enter the crypts; is afraid, says “I’m not a Stark!â€

380-1 Ned thinks of Robert’s bastard Barra in brothel. Ned thinks of promises he made to Lyanna “and the price he’d paid to keep them,†remembers Jon’s face so like a younger version of his own; also thinks of Rhaegar for the first time in years and decides he wouldn’t have gone to brothels."

From Ned, that's a compliment. Interesting that he thinks of Rhaegar with no anger. What price has Ned paid to keep those promises? Is this related to his 4 years worth of lies?

485-7 Ned Conversation with Cersei about her incest with Jaime; she asks if Ashara is Jon’s mother. Ned wonders what he would do if a strange child’s life threatened Robb/Sansa/Arya/Bran/Rickon--and what Catelyn would do, “if it were Jon’s life, against the children of her body?†This is the quote someone referred to upthread; he does not include Jon when he thinks of his children.

He does think about Lyanna, her death-scene, and the promises he made to her an awful lot.

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A couple quick points:

I will discredit myself by saying that I blitzed through book 3 w/ an unreasonable speed. I read the last 600 pages in the span of an afternoon and late night. Does not lend itself to much retention so I actually have no recollection of Dany seeing the blue flower at all.

It was in book 2, when Dany is visiting the House of the Undying in Qarth - but never fear, I too missed it on my first readthrough, that chapter reads like an acid trip.

Lyanna died in a bed of blood saying "promise me, Ned". Then Ned returns to Winterfell with a babe. Seems reasonable that Lyanna died in childbirth and made Ned promise to look after the babe, doesn't it? If it wasn't childbirth, what on earth did Lyanna die of? And what did she make Ned promise?

As for 'what else she could have died of,' Ned, does mention a fever having sapped her strength (somewhere in AGOT, I don't have it with me to find the quote). Now, this could easily be (and I suspect it is) a fever related to the childbirth, but not all fevers are. I don't think it's so uncommon a death.

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As for 'what else she could have died of,' Ned, does mention a fever having sapped her strength (somewhere in AGOT, I don't have it with me to find the quote). Now, this could easily be (and I suspect it is) a fever related to the childbirth, but not all fevers are. I don't think it's so uncommon a death.

Fevers, however, generally do not lead to a "bed of blood".

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Some do, as discussed somewhere else. It was news to me when brought up:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerperal_fever

Fair enough, but what I meant was that fevers, by themselves, don't lead to beds of blood. I have no argument with the idea that Lyanna got this kind of puerperal fever and died of that. I thought Lord Piper was saying that a fever (without childbirth) could have killed Lyanna.

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380-1 Ned thinks of Robert’s bastard Barra in brothel. Ned thinks of promises he made to Lyanna “and the price he’d paid to keep them,†remembers Jon’s face so like a younger version of his own; also thinks of Rhaegar for the first time in years and decides he wouldn’t have gone to brothels."

From Ned, that's a compliment. Interesting that he thinks of Rhaegar with no anger. What price has Ned paid to keep those promises? Is this related to his 4 years worth of lies?

I'm not hip to how you guys do that "quotes placed in a box bit". I'm going to have to take a minute from my rantings to read the fucking manual one of these days. Anyways, one counter to the above quote is this: (and forgive b/c I am REALLY foggy on the whole reason why Robert was after Rhaegar so much other than it having tons to do w/ Lyanna...kinda embarassing) Ned in the above quote seems to not harbor animosity towards Rhaegar. Well, I thought that it was said Rhaegar raped Lyanna. Holy shit, if some dude raped my sister I was have more than just a tinge of animosity. Plus, w/ Ned's morals, wouldnt he be more than just a bit pissed off even if Rhaegar and Lyanna did love each other (god I have no recollection of this stuff b/c when I was first reading it I had no idea how significant it was and did not understand how important GRRM every word was), this child was conceived out of wedlock. I dont see Ned as being all hunky-dory w/ that. Damn my GRRM for making this such a difficult situation. I love it and hate it at the same time.

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Guest Other-in-law
thought Lord Piper was saying that a fever (without childbirth) could have killed Lyanna.

Eh, so I see now that I reread a bit. I shouldn't have butted in. Carry on. :leaving:

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Fevers, however, generally do not lead to a "bed of blood".

True. I guess both could be covered by an infected wound, but that's just grasping at straws. As I said before, I agree childbirth is the most likely cause of death.

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jannedaarc, that was my point: Ned doesn't seem to think of Rhaegar as a villain but Robert does. This suggests that perhaps Lyanna went with Rhaegar willingly rather than being kidnapped. She is also holding a wreath of dead blue roses when she dies; either that's the crown of Love and Beauty Rhaegar gave her at Harrenhal over a year previously, or someone who was at ToJ has given her blue roses (they're her favorite).

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jannedaarc, that was my point: Ned doesn't seem to think of Rhaegar as a villain but Robert does. This suggests that perhaps Lyanna went with Rhaegar willingly rather than being kidnapped. She is also holding a wreath of dead blue roses when she dies; either that's the crown of Love and Beauty Rhaegar gave her at Harrenhal over a year previously, or someone who was at ToJ has given her blue roses (they're her favorite).

I agree Ned's view of Rhaegar doesn't support the idea she was kidnapped, but to me the interesting part of this is that, if it is true, the Starks are playing the same role the Freys did upon hearing the news of Robb's wedding only approximately 17 years earlier. Is it because of concern for his sister, or is it from outrage for the honor of House Stark that Brandon rides to King's Landing? Now, certainly, the Starks don't invite the couple to dinner and kill everyone, but it would seem that Brandon, and maybe his father, do place honoring the marriage contract with the Baratheons over Lyanna's happiness. Ned could have fallen into this way of thinking as well, but we also have the added, and quite good, reasoning behind his actions that he doesn't go to war until his brother and father are killed and his own life is threatened. Regardless the reasons that eventually led to open rebellion, it would appear the first cause is the Stark family honor being placed before the wishes of Lyanna (as evidenced in her discussion with Ned about Robert's infidelity.)

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SF Danny, I think you're right about Brandon and Rickard.

We never hear (in the past or present) of Ned going off about Rhaegar. It's a pet theory of mine that Lyanna, if she went with Rhaegar willingly, would have let someone know in order to keep something stupid like a war from happening. IF she was going to confide in someone, I think it would have been Ned; Brandon doesn't seem to have any sense that Lyanna was NOT kidnapped and Benjen was young. I've gotten the impression that she and Ned were closer than they were to their other siblings. Ned was in the Eyrie. If she sent a message to him there, it's quite possible that he wouldn't have gotten it until after his brother and father were being tortured at KL--too late to do much about it. Something along those lines could explain why he doesn't seem to share his father's and brother's rage about Lyanna.

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