The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread, Part II

[SFDanny]

SF Danny, I think you're right about Brandon and Rickard.

We never hear (in the past or present) of Ned going off about Rhaegar. It's a pet theory of mine that Lyanna, if she went with Rhaegar willingly, would have let someone know in order to keep something stupid like a war from happening. IF she was going to confide in someone, I think it would have been Ned; Brandon doesn't seem to have any sense that Lyanna was NOT kidnapped and Benjen was young. I've gotten the impression that she and Ned were closer than they were to their other siblings. Ned was in the Eyrie. If she sent a message to him there, it's quite possible that he wouldn't have gotten it until after his brother and father were being tortured at KL--too late to do much about it. Something along those lines could explain why he doesn't seem to share his father's and brother's rage about Lyanna.

I like the idea that Lyanna would confide in someone, but I always wondered if it wasn't Benjen. I don't know how old he would be at the time (Sansa's or Arya's age?), so if he is too young that would make him unlikely as a confidant, but the reason I look to Benjen is that he joins the Night's Watch rather quickly after the war and a disagreement with Ned about Lyanna could have been behind it. Basically, I admit, I want Benjen back and for him to tell us about his brothers and sister.

[Shewoman]

We may well see Benjen again, but I don't think he needs any great personal reason to have joined the Night's Watch. The Starks always supported the NW and they considered it an honorable occupation. During the War Benjen was the Stark at Winterfell, so he got a sense of what it was like to be in charge, to make important decisions. And then Ned and Catelyn EACH came home with Stark babies, and Catelyn had Sansa (I think) pretty soon thereafter. Benjen's choice would be to watch his brother's family grow, each son making it less likely that Benjen himself would ever inherit Winterfell. The NW provided him (as it does Jon) with a place wherein he can make his mark, can make a difference. What else was he going to do?

In the scene when he's at Winterfell (when Robert, etc., are there), I don't recall anything to suggest that there was a problem between him and Ned. The kids' reaction to him sounds like they knew him well; this wasn't his first visit.

[SFDanny]

We may well see Benjen again, but I don't think he needs any great personal reason to have joined the Night's Watch. The Starks always supported the NW and they considered it an honorable occupation. During the War Benjen was the Stark at Winterfell, so he got a sense of what it was like to be in charge, to make important decisions. And then Ned and Catelyn EACH came home with Stark babies, and Catelyn had Sansa (I think) pretty soon thereafter. Benjen's choice would be to watch his brother's family grow, each son making it less likely that Benjen himself would ever inherit Winterfell. The NW provided him (as it does Jon) with a place wherein he can make his mark, can make a difference. What else was he going to do?

In the scene when he's at Winterfell (when Robert, etc., are there), I don't recall anything to suggest that there was a problem between him and Ned. The kids' reaction to him sounds like they knew him well; this wasn't his first visit.

I won't argue with you on any of this. Benjen has many reasons that could have made him join the Night's Watch when he did, and friction with Ned over Lyanna need not be one of them. I'm just hoping for more backstory from Benjen and I'm just speculating on a possible scenario where he could provide us with some answers. What I don't want to see is for Benjen to show up and have no information to give us about Lyanna and Rhaegar. That would be disappointing to say the least.

[Sarella]

In the story Meera tells Bran about the tourney at Harrenhal (The Little Crannogman and the Knight of The Laughing Tree), there are several hints at the Rhaegar/Lyanna romance.

Bran comes to the conclusion that the Knight of the Laughing Tree (who wins the day's jousting) is The Little Crannogman (Howland Reed). But it has been discussed here that it was probably Lyanna.

1) When Lyanna Stark comes across three squires taunting Howland, she totally kicks their arses with the tourney sword (a girl of 15 takes down 3 squires).

2) Ned reflected, when he organised fighting lessons with Syrio, that Arya reminds him of Lyanna.

3) Lyanna is said to have been an awesome horse rider. Jaime says that the most part of jousting is good horsemanship (and he would know). Howland had never ridden a horse before at that point.

Seems more likely that Lyanna was the mystery knight, not Howland.

4) After the tourney the dragon king (Aerys) sends the dragon prince (Rhaegar) to hunt down The Knight of the Laughing Tree. It wouldn't be like Rhaegar to fail, would it? We know that Rhaegar didn't return with the tKotLT, as Aerys commanded, so what happened between Rhaegar and Lyanna ?

5) Remember also how as a child Rhaegar was bookish to a fault, then one day read something and announced “it appears I have to become a warriorâ€. He was also hell-bent on “the dragon must have three headsâ€. At the time of the tourney at Harrenhal, he had only two children (Aegon and Rhaenys) and Elia was sickly. What better person to be the mother of the third head of the dragon than the warrior wolf, Lyanna Stark?

6) At the feast on the night of the tourney, the dragon prince (Rhaegar) played a song so sweet that it made the she-wolf (Lyanna) cry.

In conclusion, if you believe that Rhaegar found the Knight of the Laughing Tree, and that Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree, then we have evidence of the beginnings of a romance, not a kidnapping.

[Sarella]

What I meant to say when I started that post (but instead got carried away ), was that in the "story", the clear friendships were between Howland, Lyanna and Ned. So if Lyanna told anyone about Rhaegar it would have been Howland or Ned, perhaps even both.

[Piper]

3) Lyanna is said to have been an awesome horse rider.

Not that I'm doubting you, but I don't remember this, where was it again?

[jack-be-lucky]

There are other considerations since almost all epic fantasies of the past have been somewhat allegorical. Consider the Prince That Was Promised. Basically, what we would call a Messiah. There's another story out there about a Messiah that was a virgin birth, and billions of people believe it. Could Rheager in his studies have found that portion of the prophecy and something else that identified Lyanna as the Virgin Mother. He tells Lyanna what he believes, and when she realizes its true, ( she's pregnant) she runs to Rheager knowing that he is the only person in the world that will believe her? Crackpot, I know. But like I said, billions believe it in our world. Of course, if Jon is a Messiah he will save the world, but he himself is doomed.

[Sarella]

Not that I'm doubting you, but I don't remember this, where was it again?

IIRC, Harwin says it in ASOS after Arya tries to run away and he catches her.

[SFDanny]

What I meant to say when I started that post (but instead got carried away ), was that in the "story", the clear friendships were between Howland, Lyanna and Ned. So if Lyanna told anyone about Rhaegar it would have been Howland or Ned, perhaps even both.

I don't doubt the friendship between the three of them, but is Ned around to be her confidant? He comes from the Eyrie to go to the Harrenhal tourney and he is back at the Eyrie when Brandon rides to King's Landing. I suppose it is possible that Ned goes home in between or Ned and Lyanna meet someplace else, but I don't remember any references to it in the text, do you? I just imagine Lyanna going home to Winterfell after the tourney and her only sibling who would likely listen to her being young Benjen. If he is twelve or thirteen and she is fifteen or sixteen I don't see this an unlikely scenario. If Benjen is seven or eight it would seem more unlikely.

I also wonder about Ned's reaction to Lyanna's "kidnapping." He obviously loves his sister, but he doesn't seem to have any major differences with Robert about this time. It isn't until the Lannisters lay Aerys' children at their feet that Ned and Robert seem to have a major fight between them. If he knows Lyanna is with Rhaegar willingly (and knows as her secret confidant that she loves him) then he does nothing we know of to stop his father or his brother from demanding satisfaction from the Crown Prince, nor does he ever tell Robert that Lyanna wasn't forced to go with Rhaegar. Either it all happens too quickly or Ned's sense of honor for his house and/or his friendship with Robert gets in the way of what his heart must be telling him is right.

btw, I keep getting references to Lyanna's age as sixteen, but I can't tell if that's her age at Harenhal or when she dies. Any help?

[Shadow Cat]

btw, I keep getting references to Lyanna's age as sixteen, but I can't tell if that's her age at Harenhal or when she dies. Any help?

She was 16 when she died, so was probably 14 at Harrenhall.

[SFDanny]

She was 16 when she died, so was probably 14 at Harrenhall.

Thanks, I understand there is more than a year difference between Harrenhal and her death, but I can't get an unambiguous reference whether the sixteen years of age is referring to her age at death or her age at Harrenhal. Maybe I'm just looking for too much specificity in the text and I should just take Ned's memories of Lyanna at her crypt to mean her age at death, but when I read it I see it could mean many different times of her life.

Lyanna had only been sixteen, a child-woman of surpassing loveliness. Ned had loved her with all his heart. Robert had loved her even more. (A Game of Thrones 35)

Does that mean she was sixteen when she died or does it reference a time when Ned, Robert, and Lyanna where together? I don't know.

[jannedaarc1]

After catching up on what I missed over that last couple evenings, I really have nothing to add to this theory of any intelligent worth, just a personal opinion. I simply never like the Targaryens. There are a couple of reasons for this that I'll elaborate on but that is one of the reasons I've come to realize that I am resisting the idea of L+R=J:

1. The Dragons. When I found out that the Targaryens used dragons to rise to power, my reaction was negative. While I'd use 'em if I had them, its not really fair. "So...who gives a shit?" Well, for better or worse I have this habit of subconsciously latching onto characters in many books I read to the extent that I completely feel completely sympathetic to what happens around them. I did this w/ Robert - among many others in this series - and while Robert never had to face any dragons, just the way he spoke of the Targaryens and their use of a force none could hope to rival in the days of old to crush resistance was something that would have pissed me off too. Btw, this is one of the few, and I mean 2-4 series where I've sympathized w/ more than 2 or 3 characters - just an amazing series.

2. The inbreeding thing doesnt do a lot to endear them to me.

3. And the primary reason ties in a bit w/ the first and was simply that when I was reading the first book, I had no idea what to expect whatsoever. I honestly just picked it up one day. Even when reading it I didnt think of what was -really- going on...just that it was a very cool book. Well, since few books written these days are challenging to the extent of even the smallest passing comment can support or break huge theories throughout the book, I typically just let books wash over me w/o suspecting a thing b/c I dont typically need to be "on my toes" while reading. What's there to miss? Typically I think authors should simply highlight their plot devices instead of trying (and failing) to make them extremely subtle and original. Thus when an author makes it appear that I should like or dislike a character, I typically just say "okay" and move on. This is what I thought GRRM was doing w/ the Targaryens and before I knew what the hell had happened I found myself disliking the Targaryens w/ little true substantiation. This is one of the things I am going to reevaluate seriously when I reread.

Anyways, thanks for reading. Cheers.

[Sarella]

I don't doubt the friendship between the three of them, but is Ned around to be her confidant? He comes from the Eyrie to go to the Harrenhal tourney and he is back at the Eyrie when Brandon rides to King's Landing.

The confiding happened at Harrenhal. Everyone at Harrenhal knew something funny was going on with Rhaegar. He named Lyanna queen of love and beauty instead of his wife.

But Ned and Howland knew the other side of the story. That the reason Rhaegar did that was because he had fallen in love with Lyanna after discovering she was the knight of the laughing tree. And they knew that Lyanna loved Rhaegar back.

Then Ned returns to the Eeyrie, Robert to Storm's End, Lyanna is kidnapped, and Brandon rushes off to KL before Ned can explain that it's OK.

That's why Ned didn't stop Brandon, and why Ned doesn't harbour any dislike of Rhaegar.

I also wonder about Ned's reaction to Lyanna's "kidnapping." He obviously loves his sister, but he doesn't seem to have any major differences with Robert about this time. It isn't until the Lannisters lay Aerys' children at their feet that Ned and Robert seem to have a major fight between them. If he knows Lyanna is with Rhaegar willingly (and knows as her secret confidant that she loves him) then he does nothing we know of to stop his father or his brother from demanding satisfaction from the Crown Prince, nor does he ever tell Robert that Lyanna wasn't forced to go with Rhaegar. Either it all happens too quickly or Ned's sense of honor for his house and/or his friendship with Robert gets in the way of what his heart must be telling him is right.

When Rickard and Brandon arrive in KL they are tortured to death. That was both Robert and Ned's reason for going to war. To overthrow mad king Aerys. Robert had another reason as well - to kill the man who stole his betrothed - but there was no need for Ned to share this aim in order to support Robert's war. The murder of his father and brother was enough.

[SFDanny]

The confiding happened at Harrenhal. Everyone at Harrenhal knew something funny was going on with Rhaegar. He named Lyanna queen of love and beauty instead of his wife.

But Ned and Howland knew the other side of the story. That the reason Rhaegar did that was because he had fallen in love with Lyanna after discovering she was the knight of the laughing tree. And they knew that Lyanna loved Rhaegar back.

Then Ned returns to the Eeyrie, Robert to Storm's End, Lyanna is kidnapped, and Brandon rushes off to KL before Ned can explain that it's OK.

That's why Ned didn't stop Brandon, and why Ned doesn't harbour any dislike of Rhaegar.

OK, but I thought Lyanna's "kidnapping" takes place well after the tourney at Harrenhal? Didn't Robert go back with Ned to the Eyrie? He is there when the King demands both of their heads from Jon Arryn. Brandon is in Riverrun right before he departs to King's Landing, so if I understand the logistics, Ned and Robert go to the Vale, Brandon goes to Riverrun, and Lyanna and Benjen (and Howland Reed?) head north for Winterfell? Along the way Lyanna is kidnapped and Benjen is left either alone or with house guards who give her up? Or does she run away and leave her little brother alone? It can't happen earlier at the tourney or Brandon doesn't go to Riverrun and Ned and Robert never make it back to the Eyrie.

When Rickard and Brandon arrive in KL they are tortured to death. That was both Robert and Ned's reason for going to war. To overthrow mad king Aerys. Robert had another reason as well - to kill the man who stole his betrothed - but there was no need for Ned to share this aim in order to support Robert's war. The murder of his father and brother was enough.

If I remember correctly, Brandon arrives first with his friends, and his father is summoned to answer for him. Presumably, Rickard rides all the way from Winterfell (after Benjen is back and there can be a Stark in Winterfell?) to King's Landing after the summons reaches him. That's a journey of what, at least five or six weeks? In all this time Ned (and Lyanna as well) know nothing of Brandon's captivity or their father's danger? I don't know, but something sounds crazy with this timeline. I'm hoping to find out more in the next book to sort this stuff out. Benjen, Howland, and Wylla - where are you when we need you?

[Sarella]

OK, but I thought Lyanna's "kidnapping" takes place well after the tourney at Harrenhal?

Yes, it does take place after. Sorry, I neglected to say Lyanna returns to Winterfell when Ned returns to the Eeyrie.

Didn't Robert go back with Ned to the Eyrie? He is there when the King demands both of their heads from Jon Arryn.

I guess I thought Robert would be at Storm's End considering he is the Lord of Storm's End at that stage. But I think you're right that Aerys demanded both their heads from Jon Arryn, so they must have both been in the vale.

Brandon is in Riverrun right before he departs to King's Landing, so if I understand the logistics, Ned and Robert go to the Vale, Brandon goes to Riverrun, and Lyanna and Benjen (and Howland Reed?) head north for Winterfell? Along the way Lyanna is kidnapped and Benjen is left either alone or with house guards who give her up? Or does she run away and leave her little brother alone? It can't happen earlier at the tourney or Brandon doesn't go to Riverrun and Ned and Robert never make it back to the Eyrie.

I don't know if she was kidnapped, if she ran away, or when it happened. I figure she ran away from Winterfell, leaving Lord Rickard and Benjen there. If she is as much like Arya as Ned thinks, then she would be like to run away .

If I remember correctly, Brandon arrives first with his friends, and his father is summoned to answer for him. Presumably, Rickard rides all the way from Winterfell (after Benjen is back and there can be a Stark in Winterfell?) to King's Landing after the summons reaches him. That's a journey of what, at least five or six weeks? In all this time Ned (and Lyanna as well) know nothing of Brandon's captivity or their father's danger?

They would have known, but probably figured that Rickard and the other dads would sort it out. Nobody would have expected Aerys to roast Rickard in his armour while Brandon strangled himself trying to save him!

Anyway, I'm totally confused by the timeline too. All I was trying to do was explain why Ned could both go to war with Robert AND not feel any ill towards Rhaegar at the same time.

[Shewoman]

On p. 379 of the US paperback of GoT, Lyanna told Ned that Robert wouldn't be faithful, that he already had a bastard. I don't remember where they were at this point.

Seems like Harrenhal was about a year before the war started. I tend to doubt that Lyanna had anything to say then about Rhaegar . . . if so, she waited an awfully long time to act on it.

Sarella, I agree that Ned's going to war doesn't have to have anything to do with Lyanna.

Benjen might know something about R+L since he was at Harrenhal, but I don't think he'd know much else. I really doubt that Ned confided in him when he didn't tell Jon or Catelyn; he takes his word very seriously and I think one of his promises to Lyanna was probably something about keeping Jon's heritage a secret.

[SFDanny]

Benjen might know something about R+L since he was at Harrenhal, but I don't think he'd know much else. I really doubt that Ned confided in him when he didn't tell Jon or Catelyn; he takes his word very seriously and I think one of his promises to Lyanna was probably something about keeping Jon's heritage a secret.

No, no, I wasn't suggesting Benjen knew about Jon, although he might suspect something. Rather, I was thinking he would have known about Lyanna's feelings about Rhaegar and possibly her willingness to elope with him (maybe even her plans to do so.) If he did know and didn't say anything to stop her, it would put him at odds with his father and his eldest brother - if not with Ned. Such information would be invaluable for someone trying to unravel the mystery of Jon's past - not as valuable as Howland Reed's eyewitness account of the events at the Tower of Joy, but very, very helpful nonetheless.

[Thoheeks Bili]

How did Ned KNOW to find Lyanna at the Tower of Joy?

[the silent speaker]

It's part of the Red Keep, innit?

[Guest Other-in-law]

It's part of the Red Keep, innit?

No. The red mountains of Dorne are visible from it, so it's either in Dorne or the Marches.