The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread, Part II

[SFDanny]

How did Ned KNOW to find Lyanna at the Tower of Joy?

Ser Barristan or Varys? Someone at the siege of Storm's End who was trying to ingratiate themselves to the new regime?

[The Wolf Maid]

Ser Barristan or Varys? Someone at the siege of Storm's End who was trying to ingratiate themselves to the new regime?

Varys possibly, but Ser Barristan? He's a Kingsguard, and his oath prevents him from revealing secrets, I think.

[SFDanny]

Varys possibly, but Ser Barristan? He's a Kingsguard, and his oath prevents him from revealing secrets, I think.

Yes, I agree Ser Barristan is an unlikely source, but when you try to come up with candidates of people who could have told Ned about the Tower of Joy his name has to be on the list. It assumes Ser Barristan has the information from Rhaegar (not too unlikely,) and that he would either be willing to tell Ned the whereabouts of his sister (very unlikely) or did so under duress (even more unlikely.) Remember Selmy is severely wounded at the Trident, and I guess it is possible he said something in his delirium. Still, this scenario doesn't sit right with me as it assumes too many things we don't know and it assumes people acting out of character. I don't like it.

More likely is that Varys and his little birds have the information and he reveals it to Ned before he leaves King's Landing to relieve the siege of Storm's End. This I don't like either, simply because we have lots of interaction between Ned and Varys in A Game of Thrones and there is no indication from Ned's POV that Varys slipped him the location. I suppose Varys could also have done it indirectly, but then the question becomes why? Does he give up the heir to the throne not knowing what Ned will do? I don't think so.

To me, the best scenario is simply on his journey to Storm's End or after the lifting of the siege Ned finds someone who has come from the Tower of Joy. A servant or soldier who knows the secret and is overlooked by others. Or perhaps Mace Tyrell has the information because of the proximity of the TOJ to his lands and he lets it slip. I don't know, but it's certainly an important part of the mystery. Someone told him, however, because the idea of Ned and six of his close friends accidently walking into the Tower of Joy doesn't pass the smell test.

[A wilding]

It could also possibly be Ashara Dayne who told him.

[Darkforrest]

Or a letter from his sister summoning him there to be the family she has known to be by her side.

[SFDanny]

It could also possibly be Ashara Dayne who told him.

I hadn't thought of that because I assumed she is already in Starfall. Perhaps Ned has known the information for a while but hasn't acted on it because of military necessities. If so, then an earlier meeting with Lady Dayne could be the source, but then we have to know why Ashara has the information in the first place and why she would tell Ned, knowing it must lead to a confrontation between her brother and Eddard. Perhaps possible, but I don't think likely - but should be added to the list.

Or a letter from his sister summoning him there to be the family she has known to be by her side.

This would assume Lyanna would tell her brother to come to the Tower of Joy knowing the kingsguard would fight him. She may have wanted him there, but given the circumstances of the war I can't see this happening. Of course, this makes more sense if we assume Lyanna is held against her will and Ned is being asked to rescue her. Then the question is how does she get the message out from captivity?

[Kaeln]

Am I the only one that finds Ned's trip to Starfall to not be a problem for R+L (in fact, is minor support)?

Simply put, no one knows what Jon looks like before he is born - if he takes after his father, given the state of the war, he needs to be stashed somewhere with people with the Targ look - enter Starfall. Perhaps they even travel to Starfall (on the pretense of returning Dawn) while they wait for baby Jon to lose the generic babyface/see his haircolor (if not there at birth).

Similarly, I find the idea that Ned travels to Starfall to pick up Jon (from a Wylla that's traveled ahead) to be unlikely as well - would the KG really not go with Jon? I find it far more likely that Jon is still at the Tower of Joy at the time of the fight with the KG, i.e. is with Lyanna while she is still alive, and leaves with Ned. Are timeline considerations the only reason to think that Lyanna's death (and Ned's arrival) weren't within the same day of Jon's birth? The bed of blood mention strikes me as indicating nearly simultaneous events.

Still, any way you cut it, there should be quite a few loose ends that know who Jon's parents are (certainly the mother), mainly servants and commoners at whichever household (whether Tower of Joy, Starfall, or wherever Wylla was stationed) Jon was born at. Part of this is explainable by saying this all happened in Dorne, in the middle of war, and Doran just put a gag order on whatever nearly empty household this took place in. But this implies that A) anyone who wants to know can find out with enough effort (Varys, etc), and Doran certainly knows the truth. Would he be shadowing Jon to keep him safe? Certainly, Doran would not be able to instantly send covert bodyguards Jon's way once he joined the Watch, but are there any candidates for Dorne agents sent to the wall after Jon arrives there?

[Sarella]

Varys would never have told Ned where Lyanna was. He was loyal to the Targs and still is.

I too think Ashara is the most likely candidate. Perhaps Arthur sent to Starfall for a wetnurse to help Lyanna and Ashara sent Wyalla.

[the silent speaker]

Varys would never have told Ned where Lyanna was. He was loyal to the Targs and still is.

He told Robert where Dany was.

[SFDanny]

Varys would never have told Ned where Lyanna was. He was loyal to the Targs and still is.

I too think Ashara is the most likely candidate. Perhaps Arthur sent to Starfall for a wetnurse to help Lyanna and Ashara sent Wyalla.

I have my doubts that Varys is loyal to anyone but himself and his concept of what is best for the realm. If he was a Targ loyalist, he did a very strange thing by helping to keep Robert alive all those years and by betraying Targaryen secrets, such as, as TSS has already pointed out, Daenerys location, and the fact she was pregnant with the child of Khal Drogo. I would think, if Illyrio and Varys are the leaders of a secret Targ underground, that would be information they would hide from a king who wants every Targaryen dead.

With Ashara, while I wouldn't rule her out, you still haven't dealt with the objection I raised. Why would she give Ned such information knowing that it could, and ultimately did, lead to the death of her brother and/or of Ned? I can't see the Lady Dayne as being totally oblivious to possible consequences of letting Ned know Lyanna's whereabouts. It also doesn't tell us how she found out. Did her brother tell her? Ser Arthur doesn't seem the type to pass along such information, even to his sister. Did she find out in the Red Keep? I don't know, but I've my doubts this is the true story.

[Sarella]

He told Robert where Dany was.

Yes, yes, but it would have been suspicious, wouldn't it, if he knows everything about everyone except knows nothing about Viserys and Dany. He had to earn Robert's trust. And not surprisingly, no ill came from Robert knowing Dany's location or that she was with child, because Varys would have ensured it didn't. E.g. If Littlefinger hadn't talked Robert out of sending a FM to assasinate her, Varys would have.

[Forge]

also, if he's a targ loyalist, that could actually help support the theory that he would tell eddard where lyanna was...if he knew that she was pregnant (i imagine he probably did). eddard's reputation precedes him wherever he goes, and with varys knowing more than most, he would know pretty well whether or not he could trust eddard to keep the baby safe. and so long as any targaryen were still alive, bastard or not, robert's hold on the throne would be somewhat unsteady. by sending eddard to the baby's location, he can ensure that the honorable and good man would get there before the man with an intense hatred of all things targaryen. to varys, he may prefer to have eddard find the baby instead of the possibility of robert finding it.

[Sarella]

I have my doubts that Varys is loyal to anyone but himself and his concept of what is best for the realm. If he was a Targ loyalist, he did a very strange thing by helping to keep Robert alive all those years and by betraying Targaryen secrets, such as, as TSS has already pointed out, Daenerys location, and the fact she was pregnant with the child of Khal Drogo. I would think, if Illyrio and Varys are the leaders of a secret Targ underground, that would be information they would hide from a king who wants every Targaryen dead.

Varys served Robert all those years because he was waiting for Viserys and Dany to grow up and rally an army. If he'd killed Robert and placed baby Viserys on the throne, he had no chance in hell of holding it. Instead Varys and Illyrio bided their time. Then when she was old enough, Illyrio married Dany to Drogo to gain them the khalasar to invade Westeros. At the same time, Varys starts wreaking havoc in KL to make the invasion easier.

I don't see how Varys is only in it for himself. He warned Aerys not to let Tywin's army into KL. He was obviously happy with his position under Aerys. He held the same position under Robert, but wasn't happy. Nothing changed except that the former was a Targ and the latter was a Baratheon. Therefore, Varys must want a Targ ruler. Therefore, he must be a Targ loyalist.

With Ashara, while I wouldn't rule her out, you still haven't dealt with the objection I raised. Why would she give Ned such information knowing that it could, and ultimately did, lead to the death of her brother and/or of Ned? I can't see the Lady Dayne as being totally oblivious to possible consequences of letting Ned know Lyanna's whereabouts.

If I were Ashara, I wouldn't think that my honorable brother would kill my honorable beloved who merely wants to see his sister, or that my beloved would kill my brother for preventing him seeing his sister. I would have thought they could work something out. As it turns out, I would have been wrong.

It also doesn't tell us how she found out. Did her brother tell her? Ser Arthur doesn't seem the type to pass along such information, even to his sister. Did she find out in the Red Keep? I don't know, but I've my doubts this is the true story.

I think that Arthur asked Ashara to send a wetnurse to help Lyanna. He would have had to say where to send the wetnurse (the tower of joy). Ashara sent Wylla to the TOJ, therefore she knew where to tell Ned to go.

Arthur may not seem like the type to divulge that information. But he also doesn't seem like the type to let a woman and her child die because there is nobody to help her give birth.

[Sarella]

Not that I'm doubting you, but I don't remember this, where was it again?

From ASOS Arya III:

"You ride like a northman, milady" Harwin said when he'd drawn them to a halt. "Your aunt was the same. Lady Lyanna."

Only just noticed, but it is in the next Bran chapter that Meera tells the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree. Coincidence? I think not.

[A wilding]

If I were Ashara, I wouldn't think that my honorable brother would kill my honorable beloved who merely wants to see his sister, or that my beloved would kill my brother for preventing him seeing his sister. I would have thought they could work something out. As it turns out, I would have been wrong.

And having turned out to be so horribly wrong you might possibly have then killed yourself, especially when your beloved then abandoned you to go back to his wife.

[Shewoman]

SF Dany's objections have some merit. There's also the question of how Ashara would have known where Rhaegar and Lyanna are.

In none of Ned's memories of Lyanna's death is a baby present (of course, if there were it would probably give some things away). My thinking is that Wylla (apparently a Starfall servant and, if she were born there, therefore possibly with the Dayne/Targ look) was there. It's possible that she was chosen to be Jon's "fall-back mother" (since Ned tells Robert that she is Jon's mother) in order to provide an explanation in case Jon looked Targish.

I don't see Ned's trip to Starfall as a problem either. Whether he took the baby with him or picked him up at Starfall, he certainly took him to Winterfell.

The ToJ seems very empty after the battle with the Kingsguard (although we know someone was there besides Howland since Ned remembers "they" found him holding dead Lyanna's hand); Lyanna doesn't seem to have been given much if any care. I'm thinking Wylla was part of "they" and that part of the reason Ned went to Starfall was to get her safely home. I think that most of the people there (and they wouldn't have had many, secrecy being an issue) fled either when they learned that Rhaegar was dead or when Kings Landing fell.

[Thoheeks Bili]

Wow, I didn't mean for this to be a thread hijacking ( kinda)

I will be sooooooooooooo damn happy whem George puts out the next book!!!! All these hypothetical theories( yes, ultimately, that's what they are .............until George says so or not) are great reading though!

C'mon George , avert the bloodshed and carnage that is gonna happen here, and get the damn books out already!!!!! :bow:

[The Wolf Maid]

Going to back to who told Ned where Lyanna was, it could be possible he got it from outriders or soldiers.

Looking back, Ned found Lyanna after KL's fall. Someone in King's Landing could have told him. If it's Varys, it seems weird he never thought that while he was 'working' with him in in AGOT. Ashara seems to be in Starfall when KL fell...

[Piper]

From ASOS Arya III:

"You ride like a northman, milady" Harwin said when he'd drawn them to a halt. "Your aunt was the same. Lady Lyanna."

Only just noticed, but it is in the next Bran chapter that Meera tells the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree. Coincidence? I think not.

Nice catch

Unrelated question: Ned must have told Robert that Lyanna died, but what would he have said the cause was? Just fever? He couldn't have said, "childbirth," now could he?

[The Wolf Maid]

Nice catch

Unrelated question: Ned must have told Robert that Lyanna died, but what would he have said the cause was? Just fever? He couldn't have said, "childbirth," now could he?

Looking at things, Robert might have assumed Lyanna died because of 'multiple rape'.