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The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread, Part II


Werthead

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First, let me say that I'm an R+L=J believer. It seems the most likely theory, given the information we know right now. But what if there is another possibility?

Specifically, what if one of Jon's parents was a Dayne? Think about it: What if Jon's parents are Rheagar and Ashara Dayne? That still allows for all of the ramifications of his being a Targ, but it also opens the possibility for him to be the Sword of the Morning.

I know it's probably unlikely, and it leaves a lot of unanswered questions about what happened to Lyanna, but it might make for an interesting revelation, given his position on the wall...

I really don't think that is possible, Jon has the north look about him, if Ashara and Rhaegar had a child there's no way he would look like a north man. Ashara could be his mother or Rhaegar his father but both just doesn't make sense.

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Ned says Arya looks like Lyanna and Jon looks like Arya, so it's more specific than just a "northern" look. It's also hard to see how Ned and Ashara could have gotten together during the time in which Jon must have been conceived. Ned was a general in the field and Ashara--whose family was on the other side--was in KL as a lady-in-waiting during the war. That doesn't mean she was in KL every second--but I doubt she went to the batttlefield to find her snookums.

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First, let me say that I'm an R+L=J believer. It seems the most likely theory, given the information we know right now. But what if there is another possibility?

Specifically, what if one of Jon's parents was a Dayne? Think about it: What if Jon's parents are Rheagar and Ashara Dayne? That still allows for all of the ramifications of his being a Targ, but it also opens the possibility for him to be the Sword of the Morning.

I know it's probably unlikely, and it leaves a lot of unanswered questions about what happened to Lyanna, but it might make for an interesting revelation, given his position on the wall...

I actualy like (though I don't beleive) the theory that it was Lyanna and Arthur Dayne, he's pretty much the one character who's umblemished, perfect. Breaking his vows with Lyanna would be a nice twist to his character.

Any evidence for this? Not really, the best I can come up with is when Catelyn is interrogating Jaime in the end of ACOK, he makes some remark to the effect of "Snow, isn't it? That's white, just like the color of our Kingsguard cloaks." Which of course means nothing, but I'm just throwing it out there.

:shrug:

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"Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright on his dead face, gray lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness...mother of dragons...bride of death..." THis is the vision (prophecy) dany saw at the house of undying.

if R+L=J is true, then it seems that this prophecy is forshadowing the death of jon. am i wrong? i do want R+L=J to be true, but i don't want him to die.

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if R+L=J is true, then it seems that this prophecy is forshadowing the death of jon. am i wrong? i do want R+L=J to be true, but i don't want him to die.

It could mean that, or that she carries death with her where she goes - she hasn't exactly won everyone over with kindness. Drogo is dead, so she is a bride of the dead; it's speculated she & Jon might marry, but a lot of things would have to change to make that possible - that's one of the great things about the story, there are a number of interpretations that could be true based on what we know to this point.

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"Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright on his dead face, gray lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness...mother of dragons...bride of death..." THis is the vision (prophecy) dany saw at the house of undying.

if R+L=J is true, then it seems that this prophecy is forshadowing the death of jon. am i wrong? i do want R+L=J to be true, but i don't want him to die.

I never thought of it that way. Drogo did die. We don't know about the second one but Jon may die too. Interesting.

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rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his kness in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name...cok, p706

Im currently rereading and I came across this passage when Danny is receiving visions from the Undying Ones. Well, we know it to be 2 possible names, Elia or Lyanna. Now it would be interesting if it was Lyanna, for that would be strong evidence in favor of R+L=J. And if Robert had managed to hear this last declarance from Rhaegar, I do not doubt that it had fueled his hatred and conviction against Rhaegar all these years. Too bad we can never truly know, but its fun to ruminate.

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I actualy like (though I don't beleive) the theory that it was Lyanna and Arthur Dayne, he's pretty much the one character who's umblemished, perfect. Breaking his vows with Lyanna would be a nice twist to his character.

Any evidence for this? Not really, the best I can come up with is when Catelyn is interrogating Jaime in the end of ACOK, he makes some remark to the effect of "Snow, isn't it? That's white, just like the color of our Kingsguard cloaks." Which of course means nothing, but I'm just throwing it out there.

:shrug:

Didn't Ned also have an unparalleled level of respect for Arthur Dayne? I know Ned believes in honour above all else, but if Arthur was romantically linked with his own sister, with Jon as a by-product, it would have definitely pained him to end that life...

I dunno. A random musing to throw in the mix.

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From the scene where a dying Robert names Ned Lord Protector:

"Good," he said, smiling. "I will give Lyanna your love, Ned. Take care of my children for me."

The wordes twisted in Ned's belly like a knife. For a moment he was at a loss. He could not bring himself to lie. Then he remembered the bastards: little Bara at her mother's breast, Mya in the Vale, Gendry at his forge, and all the others. "I shall . . . guard your children as if they were my own," he said slowly.

It can be read a couple ways, as always. The words could be so painful to Ned because he knows Joff and the rest aren't Roberts.

Yet . . . A page before, when Robert makes Ned promise to serve the regicidal boar at the funeral, Ned flashes back to Lyanna. No surprise here, someone he loves on his/her death bed extracting a promise.

Then what does Ned promise to do? Protect Robert's bastards as if they were his own, and this is a solution he feels at least somewhat comfortable with.

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I am new to these boards, and would just like to say that I am a believer in R+L=J. I know that people say that it is to clear and that GRRM does not do clear stuff. I would just like to say one of my friends got me started on the series, which his family reads, and I was the only one to pick up on the little clues.

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From a narrative aspect, in this case the effect on the story, the gradual unraveling of Rhaegar's nuances into what is ultimately an idealized character was very gratifying. He went from being a creature deserving of rancor to something tragic, almost leading one to ask, had he not died, what might the realm have been? That is why the quiet tragedy of Jon's life, never having belonged, and yet having everything he ever wanted to belong to die and turn to ashes around him, literally in the case of his family and the burning of winterfell...turning into something to be proud of and ultimately idealized and triumphant... Jon is going through the same deification as Rhaegar, and, like Rhaegar, this is happening as more of his character is revealed. It is a narrative parallel to the case that they are father and son. Besides, the idea is that Rhaegar must amount to something. He died for love. For prophecsy. Literally for the sake of the Dawn. It is fair to attribute a mythic, almost mystical, character to Rhagar because of his genius and because of the magic that Dany brought into the world. It is clear the Targaryans are a people of import in the ultimate destiny of the world. It is also clear that, of the Targaryans, Rhaegar was the greatest for his era, and his role in Dany's dreams at the house of the undying testify to his vision.

That being said, it is possible he had no idea about the others, and many other things, but I find that rather unlikely. This series was supposed to be told in three books at the outset, meaning that, as of the first book, we are supposed to have enough info to fill in 33% of the story.

On a side note: probably the most bad ass scene in the story comes when the reader learns that Rhaegar has discovered something in his books prompting him to learn the art of war. That, along with the scence at the Tower of Joy, have always been the two most "epic" of the flashbacks to the past. And with good reason, as they are connected, and that connection is followed through Jon.

It's pretty obvious that 'ice' in the song is the starks, the fire is the targaryeans. Btw, another theory is that Jon is not rhaegar's and dany is going to mary him and that is the song of fire and ice, but that could happen even if he is rhaegar's kid, as targ's married each other.

To go off the poster above: my friend is very intelligent (genius IQ, creative etc) and he read the series and missed all mention of R+L=J. It is only on the second reading it becomes way more apparent because you can study the clues much more instead of just trying to wrap your head around the story and what is happening and keepin up with all the characters.

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Agreed. I don't understand why Jon fanboys want him to marry Dany, get a dragon and become King of Westeros.

Because staying on that dreary wall is simply wasting his life?

It's a dumping ground for the dregs of Westeros!

Now contrast that with winning the iron throne.

Nor do I feel he should be bound by a vow he made when he was too young to know any better, his head stuffed with nonsense about the "honor" and "adventure" he'd find on the wall.

He was almost as bad as Sansa, with the fake songs and stories!

Even Tyrion told him to wake up and not be so silly.

The only reason most people stay is that it's a death sentence to leave; still, lots of people risk running away, because life on the wall is sheer misery.

I will hate it if Jon stays there, I honestly think he'd be better off dead.

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Because staying on that dreary wall is simply wasting his life?

It's a dumping ground for the dregs of Westeros!

Now contrast that with winning the iron throne.

Nor do I feel he should be bound by a vow he made when he was too young to know any better, his head stuffed with nonsense about the "honor" and "adventure" he'd find on the wall.

He was almost as bad as Sansa, with the fake songs and stories!

Even Tyrion told him to wake up and not be so silly.

The only reason most people stay is that it's a death sentence to leave; still, lots of people risk running away, because life on the wall is sheer misery.

I will hate it if Jon stays there, I honestly think he'd be better off dead.

Jon may have started out with that idealized view, but by the time he kneeled to the weirwood to actually say the vows, he had a pretty good idea of what he was getting into.

I will hate it if Jon leaves. He has found his place, his calling, and his honor. and I don't want him to lose it because his life is hard. I don't think the Night Watch sounds like such a horrible life. Hard, yes, but not horrible. In fact, I think I would prefer to be in the NW over any other organization in Westeros.

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Jon may have started out with that idealized view, but by the time he kneeled to the weirwood to actually say the vows, he had a pretty good idea of what he was getting into.

I will hate it if Jon leaves. He has found his place, his calling, and his honor. and I don't want him to lose it because his life is hard. I don't think the Night Watch sounds like such a horrible life. Hard, yes, but not horrible. In fact, I think I would prefer to be in the NW over any other organization in Westeros.

Besides. The NW can always visit gulltown so even his vows don't mean he'd be a monk.

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Agreed. I don't understand why Jon fanboys want him to marry Dany, get a dragon and become King of Westeros. It would completely destroy the character he has been developing very gradually.

I agree. I wonder why so many readers want him to marry Dany and be king. IMHO Jon playing the game of thrones would be disappointing and out of character.

(And please, no more incest. If the Targs have learnt anything from their past it should be that some new blood would do them good.)

I will hate it if Jon leaves. He has found his place, his calling, and his honor.

I think Jon will leave the Wall but not until the war with the others is over and the Wall in ruins.

He will not break his vows.

Now about his future:

When he thought about Stannis's offer, he admited that what he wanted more than anything was to hold his child in his arms one day. I hope he will get that. Not with Dany-blood-of-the-dragon but with one of the daring Mormont girls (we haven't seen enough of them in my opinion and Jon was pratically adopted by Jeor Mormont).

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I'm not sure if this has been noticed before, but I thought I'd bring it up. First of all, notice that once again Martin makes the woman with Rhaegar ambiguous:

'The man had her brother’s hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. “Aegon,†he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?†' (ACoK, in the House of Undying)

He describes Rhaegar but not the woman, so she could be Lyanna. Now, what if this child Aegon is actually Jon? How do you pronounce Aegon? (I say it with a hard G sound, making it ae-jon). It would then make sense how Ned named Jon.

This isn't really a new revelation, but it would still be another cool sign pointing to Jon's parents.

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I'm not sure if this has been noticed before, but I thought I'd bring it up. First of all, notice that once again Martin makes the woman with Rhaegar ambiguous:

'The man had her brother’s hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. “Aegon,†he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?†' (ACoK, in the House of Undying)

He describes Rhaegar but not the woman, so she could be Lyanna. Now, what if this child Aegon is actually Jon? How do you pronounce Aegon? (I say it with a hard G sound, making it ae-jon). It would then make sense how Ned named Jon.

This isn't really a new revelation, but it would still be another cool sign pointing to Jon's parents.

I pronounce the G like in the word Egg.

I don't think the vision refers to Lyanna and Jon, because Rhaegar had a son named Aegon with his wife Elia. I don't think Rhaegar would pull a George Foreman and give all his kid the same name.

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I pronounce the G like in the word Egg.

I don't think the vision refers to Lyanna and Jon, because Rhaegar had a son named Aegon with his wife Elia. I don't think Rhaegar would pull a George Foreman and give all his kid the same name.

I've only re-read through the end of CoK, but are we certain that Aegon was actually smashed against a wall? Or is it just hearsay like Ned's woman?

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