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The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread, Part II


Werthead

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Oh, and here's another one in one of Bran's dreams that he describes to Maester Luwin.

We went down to the crypts. Father was there, and we talked. He was sad."

"And why was that?" Luwin peered through his tube.

"It was something to do about Jon, I think."

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I'd just like to add this little hint that L+R=J because I don't think it has been mentioned yet in this thread.

Jon tells Sam that he has a recurring dream where he is walking through Winterfell looking for someone. But he can't find anyone and every room is empty. Then he always finds himself at the crypts, and knows he has to go down there but doesn't want to. He screams that he is not a Stark and this is not his place. He's afraid of what is waiting for him. Not the old Kings of Winter, but something else. He feels he has to go down, so he starts. It gets darker and darker, until he wants to scream, and then he wakes up.

He is looking for Lyanna but doesn't know it yet.

I agree his dream certainly means he is to find the truth of his mother in the crypts, but is there some message or some object there for him or is it just the fact of Lyanna's body lies in the crypts? Would Ned have put something with Lyanna that would be significant in unravelling the mystery for Jon?

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well, i wouldnt agree...reading that article was really a waste of time....

it doesnt say anything, lots of useless maybes and even more useless pairings - like Lyanna + Ned/Robert... - Lyanna was with Rhaegar at the time!!!

The point the FAQ addresses is that some people _do_ put forward these theories, but they often don't seem to realize the timeline problems involved with these notions. Our approach is to discuss where people were during the span of time in which Jon Snow was concieved, and treat them all with serious consideration rather than just blowing them off, because that just leads people to thinking their theories aren't being given due consideration.

It's not primarily a document about who Jon's parents are, really. It's more of a document about who Jon's parents aren't, first, and then at the end it narrows down to who we believe the evidence suggests Jon's parents are. Because of the process of elimination used, we don't go into great detail about the various circumstancial or suggestive pieces of evidence (such as those that Sarella brings up). If you're not convinced by our summation of who Jon's parents almost certainly aren't, and the evidence suggestive of who Jon's parents actually are, you are not going to be convinced by mentioning Jon's dream about the crypts.

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Hi Ran. Thanks for doing the timeline, it's the first I've seen since starting SOIAF. Perhaps you should do what the star wars timeline does, i.e. 2 years before A New Hope etc and have your 'time zero' based around Ned and Catelyn's marraige and conception of Robb.

The reason I say this is because of a babies growth. Babies around a year, especially with a 3 month age difference, (unless one is uncommonly big), look a lot different and this may include crawling. walking and talking. I think this gives a little evidence that Jon and Robb were of a similar age or Jon was younger, not older. Catelyn thinks Jon was conceived when Ned was at war. But if Jon was walking and talking before Robb I think even the wicked step-mother may become suspicious.

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That's a fair enough point. For the timeline here, you can see that the difference in birth dates may be no more than a month or so, and could in fact be only a few days apart for all we know.

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The point the FAQ addresses is that some people _do_ put forward these theories, but they often don't seem to realize the timeline problems involved with these notions. Our approach is to discuss where people were during the span of time in which Jon Snow was concieved, and treat them all with serious consideration rather than just blowing them off, because that just leads people to thinking their theories aren't being given due consideration.

ok ok, but i was commenting Lyanna+anybody else but Rhaegar pairings - no unclear timeline here.

she was with rhaegar all the time during the war - him kidnapping her started it all.

and lots of pairings not including the starks - even you _do_ have a sentence right at the beginning saying at least one of the parents has to be a stark - that shouldve been enough

If you're not convinced by our summation of who Jon's parents almost certainly aren't, and the evidence suggestive of who Jon's parents actually are, you are not going to be convinced by mentioning Jon's dream about the crypts.

1st, crypt scenes post werent directed to me.

about my convictions....i dont completely understand what youre saying, convinced about what?

i actually wrote my opinion on why wylla cant be jons mother, and som1 posted that citadel link as a reply - there it says wylla couldve been somewhere else but KL/dorne/Toj during the war, and therefore couldve "mothered" Jon

i tought she was asharas maid or something whole time long, but obviously it doesnt say so anywhere in the book, so that would be "the hole" in my thread of toughts that i was looking for

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Mor,

Lyanna+anybody else but Rhaegar pairings -

Well, yes. But people have proposed Robert + Lyanna, Eddard + Lyanna, etc. pairings. We're addressing that.

about my convictions....i dont completely understand what youre saying, convinced about what?

I'm speaking generally. People who are not convinced by clear timeline-related evidence to abandon some of the more marginal theories (see above mentioned Robert + Lyanna) are not going to abandon them because of bits of circumstancial evidence like Sarella's quotes. I was using this to explain why the FAQ is not aimed primarily at proving R+L=J, but rather showing reasons to disbelieve some of the other options and thereby leaving Rhaegar and Lyanna as the obvious top contenders that they are.

We know very little of Wylla. It's never said she was always a servant of House Dayne. It does seem clear she was connected to Ashara during the war, yet we don't know for certain where Ashara Dayne was in the course of the fighting. GRRM has said she wasn't nailed down to Starfall -- they have horses and ships in Dorne -- but he may have been referring primarily to the fact that she had been a companion to Elia up until the last year of her marriage.

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ok then

so if she is jons mother, she couldnt have been in Asharas household, otherwise she and ned wouldnt have met before ToJ

meaning she was brought to ToJ either by Rhaegar or Ned, and taken in at Starfall when Ned went there to deliver the sowrd,right? (most probable i think)

if she is jons mother she had to be brought to ToJ by Ned, of course - meaning Ned didnt just have one moment of weakness but dragged the girl around (not probable i think)

can som1 quote the part where Wylla is said to be at the ToJ? id like to see if theres any mention of how long shes there / was she already there when Ned arrived.

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There's no statement anywhere that she was at the ToJ. We're never told Wylla's location specifically. It's generally assumed she was wherever Ashara Dayne was. I think it's a very plausible and correct assumption, but it's an assumption.

We only know for certain that Ashara Dayne was at Starfall at the end of the war. We don't know where she was over the course of the year. As noted in the FAQ, if it's considered plausible in Starfall (by Edric, anyways) and in the rest of the Seven Kingdoms that either Ashara Dayne or Wylla is Jon Snow's mother, then it may well be that they were not in the Dornish area for the entire span of the war, and in fact happened to run into Ned in the Riverlands, where one or the other concieved and then went south...

But then you kind of have to wonder what they're doing wandering around the riverlands. It seems improbable. And certainly, people in the books don't all seem to know with certainty where everyone else in, so how would they know for certain where Ashara Dayne was that chaotic year? They hear from someone who hears from someone else that Ashara Dayne had Ned Stark's bastard, and they naturally just assume it makes sense as they pass it on...

Or something.

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I think it's likely that Wylla was at the Tower, but Ran is of course right (obeisance, obeisance): the books never say that.

I think she may well have been there for several reasons: 1) She's a wetnurse. Therefore her job is nursing babies whose mothers can't or won't do it.

2) In the medieval period in our world it was common for noble or wealthy women to have a wetnurse so they wouldn't have to bother with it. I think the same is probably true in Westeros, and the fact that Wylla is a wetnurse indicates that there is, in fact, such a career. 3) Since Lyanna had presumably never given birth or nursed a child before and was living in the middle of nowhere, it seems that it would be particularly logical to have a wetnurse on hand in case she couldn't nurse. If Rhaegar particularly wanted this child to survive, I think he would have taken every precaution. 4) We know at least one other person besides Howland Reed and Ned was still alive at the ToJ after the fight with the KG because Ned remembers "they" found him holding Lyanna's hand after she died (Howland was one of "them" in his memory).

5) This is the most important one in my opinion. If Wylla isn't Jon's mother (and I don't see why it would be such a big secret if she were; Catelyn's problem isn't so much that Ned fathered a bastard as that he won't reveal the mother's identity, making her think he loves this woman more than her)--IF, as I say, Wylla's not Jon's mother, then what's her connection to the whole Jon extravaganza? According to Edric Dayne in SoS, Wylla is either claiming to be Jon's mother or allowing other people to think so. Why would she do that if she didn't even know these people? I realize that she's not the only wet-nurse in Westeros, but the fact that she is one and she's saying she's Jon's mother (and Edric Dayne makes a point of saying she nursed Jon as well) could certainly be interpreted to mean that she was, in fact, Jon's nurse and is claiming maternity in order to protect him from Robert--and, possibly, from Targaryen supporters who might want to use him for their own ends. Ned's plan to protect Jon seems to have been just not to talk about Jon's mother--but Wylla seems to be serving Ned in the "who do I name when I have to name someone?" function--handy when your best buddy who was with you in the war wants to know how you managed to wind up with a kid a few months after the war ended.

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Excellent post, Shewoman.

I'd only add that we have other examples - Gilly and Old Nan for example - of women in Westeros who do (or did) the job of a wetnurse, so Wylla being at the Tower of Joy to help the newborn mother and child would be part a normal aristocratic childbirth. I still think the "they" who found Ned refers to more than just Howland Reed and Wylla, as I think your point #3 argues for a maester and possibly more support staff to be at the Tower of Joy.

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I think one of the things that got me convinced on the whole R + L = J was an email or question GRRM answered (I remember reading this at Westeros, but I forgot what section). A fan asked about the identity of Jon's parents and GRRM said something that Jon's parentage would be revealed in time.

Which was...odd, because if we take in the fact that in the books, GRRM already had Robert and Ned tell us who Jon's supposed mother was (Wylla), why would GRRM reply this? Though it isn't an outright confirmation of the R + L = J theory, I would like to believe this means there is more to Jon's parentage.

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Wolf Maid,

I suspect you mean this entry in the SSM.

Yes. This was the one. Thanks!

5- Will we know in time, with certainty, the identity of Jon Snow's parents (I don't believe Edric Dayne's tale)? Personally, I really hope he's Lyanna and Rhaegar's son, despite looking so much like Eddard.

Jon's parentage will be revealed eventually, yes.

As I've mentioned, I just found this odd. If Jon was the son of Ned and Wylla, there was no need for GRRM to reply like this, because in one of the earliest chapters of AGOT, Robert had identified Wylla as Jon's mother (which Ned confirmed).

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That seems naive and trusting, Wolf Maid. Not that your reading is impossible or even notably implausible, but with the question framed so as to establish an alternate theory right in the words of it, saying the truth will be revealed eventually is just how a twisted evil mind would carefully avoid quashing speculation while answering the letter of the question. Any author worth his salt will answer plot questions to befuddle an Aes Sedai.

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As I've mentioned, I just found this odd. If Jon was the son of Ned and Wylla, there was no need for GRRM to reply like this, because in one of the earliest chapters of AGOT, Robert had identified Wylla as Jon's mother (which Ned confirmed).

But nothing here makes the L+R theory any more likely than, say, Ned and Ashara, just discredits Ned and Wylla.

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But nothing here makes the L+R theory any more likely than, say, Ned and Ashara, just discredits Ned and Wylla.

Yes. Which I why I said in my earlier post:

Though it isn't an outright confirmation of the R + L = J theory, I would like to believe this means there is more to Jon's parentage.

I don't see it as a direct confirmation of R + L = J, but more as something that raises the possibility that there is more to Jon's parentage (which opens to the possiblity of R + L = J and a host of other theories, such as N + A = J).

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But nothing here makes the L+R theory any more likely than, say, Ned and Ashara, just discredits Ned and Wylla.

Yes, precisely.

I never for a moment believed Wylla was Jon's mum. It didn't make sense for all the reasons stated above and GRRM's statement simply confirms it. Reading, I assumed Ned was Jon's dad, but I was extremely puzzled for at least the first book about who the mother could be. Ashara Dayne is first suggested by Catelyn, and so I didn't credit the idea much to begin with. I figured Ned's "dishonor" would be revealed later on OR that we were meant to never know. That was almost more appealing to me, that a bastard's a bastard - doesn't matter who his parents are.

However, there's a certain point later on... and I can't remember when... but it was after the first book was well over... that I felt the situation was "revealed". That is, Ashara Dayne was Jon's mother after all - that it turned out Ned and Ashara were in the same place at the right time, and that they were clearly in love. I feel like I'm going to have to read all the books over to find it again though argh...

Basically, as people seem to be confused about what proponents of this theory think (maybe I'm the only one), I'll try to explain.

First, I've looked at the FAQ, and Jon's age has apparently been estimated by R+L = J folks as being older than Robb's due to something GRRM said once in an interview. I think this is not the kind of evidence we should include in this discussion. To me, it seems to be the kind of thing that could have been off by a bit, especially as the FAQ does not even know how long the war was. Close to a year could also mean 13 or 14 months. Anyway, Eddard + Ashara assumes that, at least Jon is younger than Robb, consistent with the thinking of most people in Westeros.

So.

All this assumes first that Ned and Ashara have romantic history, which I believe they do.

One WEEK after he is married to Catelyn, Ned "leaves" (from Catelyn's recollections) for parts unknown. We don't know where Ashara Dayne is, or where Ned is, for at least a few months as you have admitted.

Either, Ned goes South from the Vale rather than straight to Winterfell (plenty of time) and/or Ashara comes North (maybe in disguise), to meet with Ned. Wylla is along as well. However they meet, it's a brief encounter, and tragic as Ashara learns about Ned being married...

Afterwards, Ned forces Ashara to leave ("protect your honor yadda yadda", "I won't let them kill your brother etc"). I expect in protest ("we love each other there is no dishonor, etc"), Ashara goes back home. There, she gives birth to Jon, and Wylla becomes Jon's wetnurse.

Shortly after Jon is born, Ashara finds out that Ned has slain her brother, and kills herself. POSSIBLY Ashara might instead have incorrectly heard that Ned had died and killed herself for this reason instead. Hard to say. Wylla takes Jon to Ned, the rest is the same.

Ned's main motivation, and the reason for his anger at Catelyn and others for asking about Jon's mom is completely motivated by love and desire to protect (his perception of) Ashara Dayne's honor, PARTICULARLY after her death.

Circumstantial evidence for this pairing:

- Catelyn believes it is possible, and this is from things she has heard from more believable sources - Ned's houseguard. There was a time when Ned and Ashara were in the same place around the time Jon was likely concieved, according to these sources.

- Ashara killing herself just because her brother dies makes little sense. To me, this is near proof that Ned+Ashara were at least in love.

- It is consistent with Ned's anger at Catelyn and others about the ID of Jon's mom (loving Ashara, he would put her honor, even posthumously, above his own).

- Wylla makes sense. Why would Wylla be with Ned and Lyanna if neither she nor Ashara were the mother? (At the very least, Wylla as wetnurse for R+L=J requires some additional explanation.)

- Ned never says "his mother is Not Ashara" when questioned. We know Ned can't lie very well so this is consistent.

- If Ned's the dad, Ashara beign the mom makes sense in light of his deep love for Jon in a way that to me is more appealing than that he's only Ned's nephew (and certainly would be weird if Wylla or a mystery woman/whore were the mother). If Brandon hadn't died, it seems quite possible that Ned and Ashara may have wed, and Jon would have been their true son...

Things it fails to answer

- "Promise me, Ned" yeah... I'm just not sure. It could be that R+L is true even if they don't = J. Then maybe Lyanna made Ned promise not to tell anyone about her being with Rhaegar. She may have wanted to protect Robert's feelings, as she cared about him... Or it's something completely mysterious that hasn't been even hinted at yet.

- Bed of Blood - why is Lyanna found in a bed of blood? In this case, either this means she was raped or hurt in some way (who did it? Almost certainly not Rhaegar); or she had a baby that wasn't Jon (that would be interesting!)

In general, R+L=J has the added satisfaction of pulling together many aspects of the story into a single central mystery, while N+A=J simply tells a separate story from R+L. I honestly don't know which is more likely. As I've said above, both possibilities leave some things unanswered.

Hehe ya know what would be pretty interesting? What if Ned and Ashara actually have a bastard together but it's not Jon? :) haha.

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Close to a year could also mean 13 or 14 months.

I have to admit, I have never heard anyone use "close to <firm figure>" to seriously mean beyond that figure

Has anyone else heard this usage?

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