The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread, Part II

[Winter Is Coming Podcast]

What kind of backwards logic is that? Arya has the "Stark look", because she got it from her father. If her likeness to Lyanna was telling anything on the R+L=J issue, then that would make Arya Lyanna's daughter as well.

Jon looks like a Stark, he looks like Ned, Lyanna or Arya in this regard, that's all.

It's a question of breeding. Jon Arryn and Ned Stark both realized Cersei's children weren't Robert's by looking at birth records: Lannister + Baratheon = black hair. Hardly evidence that would stand up in court in the real world, but damning in Westeros. Well, throughout the series we've seen that anyone with a dab of Valyrian blood SHOWS it. Silvery hair, purple-ish eyes - something unique about their appearance says "Yup, they're Valyrian." The fact that Jon looks so very Starky is a point toward "Ned's bastard" in my book.

[SFDanny]

Well, throughout the series we've seen that anyone with a dab of Valyrian blood SHOWS it. Silvery hair, purple-ish eyes - something unique about their appearance says "Yup, they're Valyrian." The fact that Jon looks so very Starky is a point toward "Ned's bastard" in my book.

Not true. We know that Rhaenys and Aegon, both the children of Rhaegar and Elia, looked very different. One look like the traditional Targaryen the other like their Dornish mother. Unlike the Baratheon black hair and eyes, the Targaryen hair and eye color don't seem to be always dominant.

[Starkess]

Rhaenys looked more like a Martell, Aegon more a Targaryen.

That doesn't mean Rhaenys didn't look like a Targ at all. I'm inclined to think that all the Targs had some sort of Targish look, even if it wasn't as evident as the Martell look in Rhaeyns.

[Piper]

That doesn't mean Rhaenys didn't look like a Targ at all. I'm inclined to think that all the Targs had some sort of Targish look, even if it wasn't as evident as the Martell look in Rhaeyns.

Didn't Baelor and/or Daeron look almost nothing like Targs in THK? I'll look for the quotes, unless someone beats me to it.

[SFDanny]

That doesn't mean Rhaenys didn't look like a Targ at all. I'm inclined to think that all the Targs had some sort of Targish look, even if it wasn't as evident as the Martell look in Rhaeyns.

Of course it doesn't mean Rhaenys looks nothing like her father, but it does mean that she looks much more like her mother. It certainly doesn't support the idea that all Targaryens carry distinctive traits that makes them identifiable as descendants of Valyria.

[Starkess]

Of course it doesn't mean Rhaenys looks nothing like her father, but it does mean that she looks much more like her mother. It certainly doesn't support the idea that all Targaryens carry distinctive traits that makes them identifiable as descendants of Valyria.

Oh, I think you're probably right. I just meant that the SSM quoted wasn't a proof against it.

[Mezeh]

Didn't Baelor and/or Daeron look almost nothing like Targs in THK? I'll look for the quotes, unless someone beats me to it.

Daeron had only eyes but not hair and Baelor neither.

[Mezeh]

However, assuming Jon does want the throne, the only person he really has to satisfy to the validity of his claim is Daenerys. If she were to support him, along with her dragons and growing army, the rest of Westeros' suspicions about his claim wouldn't matter very much, would it? At that point, it's not a question of laying out the proof for an independent court to decide if he's been able to convince his cute little auntie.

I doubt that Jon would want to sit on the throne but you are definitely right about Daenerys. She is the key person to be convinced that Jon is her nephew. The trouble is that the only person who should for surely know about Jon parentage – Howland Reed is the wrong person to convince Dany.

[The Wolf Maid]

To me the question is why would Ned not do exactly as he does in A Game of Thrones? That is, why not send a message on to Benjen to call the banners and have him send them south.

Maybe, but I think Ned was not the one who would leave such thing to his brother. He would do it himself. Besides, this was open rebellion against the King, so I guess it makes much more of an impact if the lord or the heir calls on the banners.

But that said, if Jon was not Ned's bastard, I dont think he would have let Cat beleive it was so when she heard the rumors in Winterfell...perhaps I'm wrong on that, but I felt that Ned trusted Cat enough that he would have let her know this.

IIRC, in Ned's POV, he mentions that there are certain secrets ones must keep even from the ones they love. Besides, I don't think Catelyn knowing about Jon would have helped in any way, and Ned must have realized this.

If Jon IS the son of L+ R... well, what would it change? He's still a bastard, he's still commander of the Wall, he still has Others to deal with.

We don't know if he is a bastard. Rhaegar could have married Lyanna, which would make Jon true born and the true heir to the throne. Jon's claim supercedes Dany's. But I'll agree he's still the commander of the Wall and will still fight the Others.

Didn't Baelor and/or Daeron look almost nothing like Targs in THK? I'll look for the quotes, unless someone beats me to it.

Egg mentions that Baelor takes after his mother, a dornish princess. Daeron also has common looks, with his brown hair.

[Shewoman]

If Ned promised Lyanna not to reveal Jon's heritage, he wouldn't. In GoT p. 115 he thinks, "“He had lived his lies for 14 years, yet they still haunted him at night.†(Jon is 14 at this point). On pp. 380-1 Ned thinks of promises he made to Lyanna “and the price he’d paid to keep them.â€

[Mezeh]

If Ned promised Lyanna not to reveal Jon's heritage, he wouldn't. In GoT p. 115 he thinks, "“He had lived his lies for 14 years, yet they still haunted him at night.†(Jon is 14 at this point). On pp. 380-1 Ned thinks of promises he made to Lyanna “and the price he’d paid to keep them.â€

He promised more then that. Taking into account that Lyanna was afraid before he made his promise and relaxed after he made it the promise was something like to keep the child alive and probably to raise him as his own. Something to make her absolutely sure about the child fate.

[the silent speaker]

... So Lyanna was worried then (because she made him promise not to) that her beloved brother would kill her baby? Furthermore said brother is Ned Stark, as she must have been aware to trust him with a responsibility of this magnitude.

Rhaegar could have married Lyanna, which would make Jon true born and the true heir to the throne.

Rhaegar was already married to Elia, and no the Targaryens didn't marry in groups; with the single exception of Aegon the Conqueror.

[SFDanny]

Rhaegar was already married to Elia, and no the Targaryens didn't marry in groups; with the single exception of Aegon the Conqueror.

A rather large exception, don't you think? Especially for a Crown Prince who sees himself as the person to restore his house to glory and to fulfill ancient prophecies. I'm not sure what is so hard to believe about Rhaegar marrying Lyanna. How else does one explain the presence of three of the kingsguard at the Tower of Joy if the rightful heir to the throne sits surrounded on Dragonstone and without a single member of their company to help him? To guard the mistress of the dead prince and her bastard? It makes no sense unless they are there to guard the heir to the throne - the child of Rhaegar's lawful wife, Lyanna. It sure didn't make sense to Ned.

[Cimon]

... So Lyanna was worried then (because she made him promise not to) that her beloved brother would kill her baby? Furthermore said brother is Ned Stark, as she must have been aware to trust him with a responsibility of this magnitude.

I think she was making him promise to raise Jon as his bastard so that Robert and other Baratheon supporters weren't a threat to his life like they were to Viserys and Dany.

[the silent speaker]

In that case, SFDanny, why are the Kingsguard fighting Ned? Lyanna is his sister. Surely they know him enough not to think he will harm her or (especially) the baby.

Shojum:

Taking into account that Lyanna was afraid before he made his promise and relaxed after he made it the promise was something like to keep the child alive and probably to raise him as his own.

[Sarella]

Lyanna herself was afraid of what Ned would do, and she knew him better than the KG.

Ned is all about doing what is right, and here he was put in a grey situation. In my mind it could have gone either way. On the one hand he has his duty to his best friend and king, Robert. And on the other hand he has his loyalty to his sister, Lyanna, who is essentially asking him to commit treason.

None need have feared that Ned would kill the baby, but IMO there was a 50% chance he'd take the child to Robert.

[SFDanny]

In that case, SFDanny, why are the Kingsguard fighting Ned? Lyanna is his sister. Surely they know him enough not to think he will harm her or (especially) the baby.

Sarella is absolutely right. If you are the kingsguard and have the task of saving the heir to the throne, do you turn him over to the best friend of the usurper and most powerful rebel commander? Even if you believe Ned would do no harm to the child, you have at best given him over to a lifetime of imprisonment and more likely a quick death at the order of the new King. Think what was the fate of this child's brother and sister, and then it makes perfect sense why they don't turn over the new heir. All Ned need do is turn the child over to Robert and all is lost. Instead the Kingsguard do their duty and fight against horrible odds to save the child. They could not take the chance that Ned would lie to his King and best friend and hide the child from his vengeance for a lifetime. In fact, it took a promise wrenched from Ned by his dying sister to do just that. If it was only Lyanna at the Tower of Joy, none of that need happen. If it was Lyanna and a bastard child who would never sit the throne, why would the Kingsguard break their vows held over a lifetime and forget the peril facing Viserys? There is a least one child born there and that child is the heir to the throne or the actions of the Kingsguard are not understandable given they have any other choice of action.

[Mezeh]

Rhaegar was already married to Elia, and no the Targaryens didn't marry in groups; with the single exception of Aegon the Conqueror.

You are wrong by GRRM own words there were and could be more exceptions.

[Mezeh]

In that case, SFDanny, why are the Kingsguard fighting Ned? Lyanna is his sister. Surely they know him enough not to think he will harm her or (especially) the baby.

Shojum:

This subject is IMO discussed too much for too long time and it returns to the same points many times. Kingsgurds had no reason to keep Ned from his sister. But if she was married to Rhaegar they could never allow him to have her child.

[The Wolf Maid]

Rhaegar was already married to Elia, and no the Targaryens didn't marry in groups; with the single exception of Aegon the Conqueror.

Actually, aside from Aegon, there is another Targaryen who had multiple wives. I think Maegor the Cruel had a few at the same time.

While polygamous marriages in Targaryens weren't common (at least after the conquest of Westeros), the fact remains that there is a precedent, and that's all Rhaegar needs.