The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread, Part II

[the silent speaker]

You are wrong by GRRM own words there were and could be more exceptions.

Cite?

This subject is IMO discussed too much for too long time and it returns to the same points many times.

[Mezeh]

Cite?

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/...aryen_Polygamy/

"Targaryen Polygamy

First off all I want to thank you for the one of the best fantasy novels I ever read. Then I would like to ask one question: In the SOS Jora Mormont told to Dany that Aegon The Dragon had two wives and she could take two husbands. The question is if there were any other precedents of polygamy among Targaryens besides Aegon the First.

Yes, there were.

Maegor the Cruel had eight or nine wives, I seem to recall, though not all of them were simultaneous. He beheaded a few of them who failed to give him heirs, a test that all of them ultimately failed.

There might have been a few later instances as well. I'd need to look that up... (or make that up, as the case might be)."

Actually it was me who asked the question.

[SFDanny]

This subject is IMO discussed too much for too long time and it returns to the same points many times. Kingsgurds had no reason to keep Ned from his sister. But if she was married to Rhaegar they could never allow him to have her child.

For some of us who are new to the boards it isn't old hat. Perhaps nothing new is brought up in these discussion from the perspective of those who have participated in many threads on a topic, but I would hope that some patience for those who are new to a topic is exercised. In general, I find that to be the case anyway. We can't all read everything already posted over the years. I would hope also that perhaps with fresh eyes on old topics, every once in a while a fresh spin is also added.

Anyway, your last two sentences make the point I was trying to make much more succinctly. Thanks.

[Mezeh]

Anyway, your last two sentences make the point I was trying to make much more succinctly. Thanks.

You see in truth I was wondering about the event at the Tower of Joy when I asked GRRM a polygamy question. Of course I made it as indirect as possible since I wanted to get the answer. By the GRRM last sentence he understood the real purpose of the question very well (not that I expected less of him). So… we could continue to speculate on the subject. Rhaegar/Lyanna marriage clearly was not impossible.

[The Wolf Maid]

Actually it was me who asked the question.

Cool. I was sifting through the Citadel earlier, but I didn't turn that up.

Well, at least I got my initial guess right.

[snake]

Well, Lyanna and Rhaegar might have been married but from the little we know Lord Eddard didn't know about it. He thinks of Jon Snow as a bastard.

[Mezeh]

Well, Lyanna and Rhaegar might have been married but from the little we know Lord Eddard didn't know about it. He thinks of Jon Snow as a bastard.

Sorry I don’t understand what place exactly you have in mind. Anyway Ned could have known only if Lyanna have told him and she probably didn’t have enough time. She made him to promise and apparently died soon afterwards.

[snake]

Sorry I don’t understand what place exactly you have in mind.

If you mean what passage I'm referring to it would be the following.

"Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?"

And it's fairly certain that there were others ate the ToJ who are still living and thus would know if Rhaegar and Lyanna were wed, so it's not a stretch to think that Lord Eddard would have known that as well, but the passage I quoted above shows that Ned thought of Jon as a bastard and his conception as born of lust.

[SFDanny]

If you mean what passage I'm referring to it would be the following.

"Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?"

And it's fairly certain that there were others ate the ToJ who are still living and thus would know if Rhaegar and Lyanna were wed, so it's not a stretch to think that Lord Eddard would have known that as well, but the passage I quoted above shows that Ned thought of Jon as a bastard and his conception as born of lust.

Well, snake, it's pretty certain the three Kingsguard didn't tell Ned that Lyanna and Rhaegar were wed. That leaves whoever made up the non-Howland part of "they" and Lyanna herself to have told Ned that the child was not a bastard. I don't think the odds of loyal retainers running to the man who just killed some of the most noble knights of the realm to give him secret information was very good, so that really leaves, in my mind, whether or not the dying mother told Ned that Jon was the heir to the throne. I wouldn't be surprised either way.

[snake]

Well, snake, it's pretty certain the three Kingsguard didn't tell Ned that Lyanna and Rhaegar were wed. That leaves whoever made up the non-Howland part of "they" and Lyanna herself to have told Ned that the child was not a bastard. I don't think the odds of loyal retainers running to the man who just killed some of the most noble knights of the realm to give him secret information was very good, so that really leaves, in my mind, whether or not the dying mother told Ned that Jon was the heir to the throne. I wouldn't be surprised either way.

Well, supposedly a loyal retainer of the Daynes is in on the whole cover up with Ned who just happened to kill Ser Arthur and cause Lady Ashara to commit suicide, so it's no big stretch to think Ned was told of any nuptials between the happy couple. I mean, what would be the point of lying to him after the fact, especially once they knew that Ned was going to keep the child safe.

[SFDanny]

Well, supposedly a loyal retainer of the Daynes is in on the whole cover up with Ned who just happened to kill Ser Arthur and cause Lady Ashara to commit suicide, so it's no big stretch to think Ned was told of any nuptials between the happy couple. I mean, what would be the point of lying to him after the fact, especially once they knew that Ned was going to keep the child safe.

If Wylla is a loyal retainer of the Daynes before Ned gets to the Tower of Joy, then she joins the conspiracy with Ned and tells him all after he kills Ser Arthur? Or after he takes her back to Starfall and causes the death of Lady Ashara? More likely Wylla is a loyal retainer of Rhaegar and Lyanna who ends up as a wet nurse for the Daynes. Which raises the question why she stayed in Starfall rather than go north with Ned and the baby Jon? Another child? Or does she want nothing to do with Ned after the events at the TOJ and Starfall. If the latter, it doesn't point to a very close conspiracy between the two. A convergence of interest most likely, but not a conspiracy of friends.

But to your point, no it is not impossible that Wylla or any others at the Tower of Joy told Ned that Lyanna and Rhaegar had been married. I think I said it was possible, but pointed to Lyanna as the more likely possibility. It is entirely possible that Ned knows his sister was married, but, as I said, either scenario would not surprise me.

Really what is the source of our disagreement is that I don't think your quote proves Ned believes Jon is a bastard. Certainly it doesn't prove he is a bastard. Rather it can be read as looking at Jon and thinking of how the kinds of passions between Rhaegar and Lyanna have governed the actions of many, including the birth of many bastards that the Gods are supposed to disdain.

[snake]

Certainly it doesn't prove he is a bastard. Rather it can be read as looking at Jon and thinking of how the kinds of passions between Rhaegar and Lyanna have governed the actions of many, including the birth of many bastards that the Gods are supposed to disdain.

It doesn't prove Jon's a bastard no, but to read that and still think that Ned doesn't think of Jon as a bastard born of lust requires some very selective reading and interpretation. But hey, I know I'm not convincing anybody here that Rhaegar and Lyanna weren't married. Which of course would mean that there was a Septon present as well to actually marry them. The cast keeps growing.

[SFDanny]

It doesn't prove Jon's a bastard no, but to read that and still think that Ned doesn't think of Jon as a bastard born of lust requires some very selective reading and interpretation. But hey, I know I'm not convincing anybody here that Rhaegar and Lyanna weren't married. Which of course would mean that there was a Septon present as well to actually marry them. The cast keeps growing.

It's one thing to read the passage you quote and say Ned thinks Jon is bastard-born. I think that is an entirely reasonable reading. I've given you another, what I think is entirely reasonable reading, that doesn't bear on whether Jon's parents were wed. However, what I disagree with is going the extra step (I'm not clear that you do this) and say that if Ned believes Jon to be illegitimate, it must be so because he would necessarily know from Wylla or other sources if a marriage took place. I don't think that extra step is supported.

And, yes, I think the cast of characters who know something about this part of the mystery is larger than most people think. That may well include a Septon who performed the wedding.

[Sarella]

It just doesn't sit well with me that (1) GRRM would make Jon the legitimate heir to the iron throne and (2) that he would have several random characters that know that Rhaegar and Lyanna wed.

(1) is too typical for GRRM.

(2) is too sloppy for GRRM.

It would require that Ned, Howland and Wylla know that R+L=J, but not that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. And that some other random people (a septon and witnesses) either know about both wedding and Jon, or only about the wedding.

For these randoms to know about the wedding but not about Jon doesn't really work, because they would surely have suspicions when approx 9 months after the wedding and bedding, a babe pops up in Ned's care.

So either the random people know about both the wedding and Jon and have managed to keep it secret all this time (in which case GRRM will produce a septon or witness character to reveal all of this, which will be very lame), or Howland and Wylla have half the story and these random people have the other half (in which case the two sides of the story will come together when these characters meet, which will be very lame).

It is one thing to have R+L=J confirmed by Howland Reed, but another to have R+L=married confirmed by some random character.

[snake]

It's one thing to read the passage you quote and say Ned thinks Jon is bastard-born. I think that is an entirely reasonable reading. I've given you another, what I think is entirely reasonable reading, that doesn't bear on whether Jon's parents were wed. However, what I disagree with is going the extra step (I'm not clear that you do this) and say that if Ned believes Jon to be illegitimate, it must be so because he would necessarily know from Wylla or other sources if a marriage took place. I don't think that extra step is supported.

And, yes, I think the cast of characters who know something about this part of the mystery is larger than most people think. That may well include a Septon who performed the wedding.

Well, I think that if anyone would know of Lyanna and Rhaegar's nuptials it would be Lord Eddard. There is no direct evidence to support it but there's none for the marriage angle either other than wishful thinking. I mean, Ned was there and managed to talk to his sister before she died. If there was a child and he made promises with respect to that child, it would certainly seem strange that the fact that this was a legitimate heir to the throne would not be pressed upon Lord Eddard.

And I hope I do not come off sounding rude but from my POV what you suggest could be another interpretation of that passage is IMO not reasonable.

[Mezeh]

Well we don’t know for how long Hen managed to talk with his sister before she dies. More important is the other thing. If Ned promise was indeed about her and Rhaegar child then she cared about the child life and not his ascending to the throne. And she was afraid. And if she was afraid she wouldn’t tell Ned details that could have made his already hard choice even harder.

However we return to the same point.

Even if Jon is bastard Reed and Wylla evidence could be insufficient to Dany. With marriage part none of them probably even hear about it and surely none witnessed it.

So we desperately need some additional witness. Preferably somebody with high position and preferably somebody who was on the Targ side during the war.

[Sarella]

Sounds like Varys is your man .

[Mezeh]

Varys? Well the spymaster is obviously one of the first candidates to know secrets. But once again would he be trusted in such a serious matter? For Dany he is currently a man who served her father but later served his enemies as well. And a man who spied on her and brought information about her to her enemies. So to be trusted Varys first will need to prove that he always was on her side. Not an easy task.

[SFDanny]

It just doesn't sit well with me that (1) GRRM would make Jon the legitimate heir to the iron throne and (2) that he would have several random characters that know that Rhaegar and Lyanna wed.

(1) is too typical for GRRM.

(2) is too sloppy for GRRM.

It would require that Ned, Howland and Wylla know that R+L=J, but not that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. And that some other random people (a septon and witnesses) either know about both wedding and Jon, or only about the wedding.

For these randoms to know about the wedding but not about Jon doesn't really work, because they would surely have suspicions when approx 9 months after the wedding and bedding, a babe pops up in Ned's care.

So either the random people know about both the wedding and Jon and have managed to keep it secret all this time (in which case GRRM will produce a septon or witness character to reveal all of this, which will be very lame), or Howland and Wylla have half the story and these random people have the other half (in which case the two sides of the story will come together when these characters meet, which will be very lame).

It is one thing to have R+L=J confirmed by Howland Reed, but another to have R+L=married confirmed by some random character.

I'm not sure I understand all of your points. What would be typical, it seems to me, is if Martin follows the Arthurian legend completely. To do that he would have Jon be the hidden king who comes back and restores the kingdom of his father and rebuilds it to new heights. In Arthur's case there is a tragedy, but it takes place after the hidden king is restored to the throne. This story seems to me headed in a different and altogether less happy ending. With Martin's Arthur (Jon) we have a character who is honor bound to refuse the throne that is rightfully his. There is no Jon sitting in Camelot at the end of our story, but rather a Jon who sacrifices all, including his life perhaps and most certainly whatever hope he has for love and status, for the good of his people. Not a "typical" ending at all.

As to others holding the clues to part of the mystery and not all of it, what's wrong with that? That's real life. Why should we expect Howland Reed to know everything? Reed knows what he knows based on his vantage point as one of Eddard's close friends and companions during the war. Neither Ned or Howland could have been reasonably expected to be at a wedding of Rhaegar and Lyanna, so unless they were told of it, we can't expect them to know of it.

It is possible Lyanna or Wylla told them of a marriage, but is also quite possible they did not. Lyanna's concern on her death bed is likely to be to insure that Jon is not discovered and he is hidden away from Robert's wrath. Do you think she was thinking about Jon becoming King or Jon staying alive when she made Ned promise? It's possible she told all to Ned, but if snake's reading of Ned's quote is right then she obviously didn't tell him of a marriage. That could be because one didn't happen (very unlikely given the presence of the kingsguard) or because she died before telling him all.

With Wylla, there is every reason to believe she would not trust Ned with all of Lyanna's secrets given the events at the Tower of Joy (assuming she was there.) If Wylla does know of a marriage, then she is hardly a random character. She is someone we have been given clues about since the beginning of the series as someone who might be critical in unraveling the mystery. Other sources of information may well be people we have been introduced to over the course of the story. Could Varys know about a marriage? Certainly, others as well.

What I don't understand about the argument that Jon is the bastard child of Rhaegar and Lyanna is the presence of the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy and Ned's questions to them seems to argue so loudly against this scenario. Why would they fight Ned and his companions to the death over a bastard child or a former mistress when their clear duty is to protect Viserys? If they have a choice about getting to Dragonstone, I'd submit they'd have gone if Viserys was their king.

What is certain is that at some point in the story the truth of Jon's parents will become important. The search for that truth may uncover new characters with bits of information to unravel the mystery, but wherever that clues lead us the story should be compelling.

[SFDanny]

Well, I think that if anyone would know of Lyanna and Rhaegar's nuptials it would be Lord Eddard.

Why? He has no contact with his sister between her disappearance with Rhaegar and her death, at least none we know of. The only time he can find out about it is on her deathbed. There Lyanna's concerns have to be Jon's survival, not his future as King of Westeros, so it is possible she dies before telling Ned.

There is no direct evidence to support it but there's none for the marriage angle either other than wishful thinking.

There is powerful indirect evidence. The Kingsguard is there when they should be at Dragonstone with Viserys. Ned says as much in his questioning of his three opponents. The only real convincing reason for them to be there, if they have a choice, is because their duty to the heir means they should be there - because he is there.

I mean, Ned was there and managed to talk to his sister before she died. If there was a child and he made promises with respect to that child, it would certainly seem strange that the fact that this was a legitimate heir to the throne would not be pressed upon Lord Eddard.

Lyanna is dying and her marriage is not the first thing on her mind. It is not strange in the least that any loyal servants would not tell Ned of the child's legitimate claim on the throne given what happened to Rhaegar's other children.

And I hope I do not come off sounding rude but from my POV what you suggest could be another interpretation of that passage is IMO not reasonable.

Not rude. We just disagree. The passage, and I need to go back and read the context again, seems to have two major parts to it. One being the presence of so many bastards in the world and the other being the power of our loves/lusts in governing what we do. Your reading highlights the former, while mine highlights the latter. I don't see either as unreasonable, but I can see I can't convince you of my point. I'll reread the section and see if it helps to convince me you're right.