The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread, Part II

[Hedge Knight]

And it certainly makes sense to detach the majority of the Kingsguard to the field army since they have the greatest opportunity to make an impact there. And prince Rhaegar that is about face the enemy on the battle field is the most likely to need their service. As long as the loyalists are winning the king should be relatively safe.

I agree with your comment that Prince Rhaegar needing the 3 KG because he is in the most danger.

I disagree with the idea that the King, his wife and son, Vicerys; and Rhaegars family are all safe in KL a long as the loyalists are winning. There is far too much trechery in the 7 kingdoms. Asassins, poisoning, kidnapping, etc , all of the things we see in later books happening in KL could have happened when Aerys was king. That is why you would keep a Kings Guard with each family and especially Rhaegar's heir, should something happen to Rhaegar in battle.

But they didn't....And here is where I am agreeing with you.... Because the top 3 KG were on a special mission. I think that is an excellent and correct assumption.

What do you think the mission was?

[Sarella]

I agree that "far away" implies that they were indeed far away doing something.

I don't see how it can have anything to do with the prophesy, though.

Rhaegar believed Aegon was the PWWP. And he had his three heads of the dragon (Aegon, Rhaenys and unborn Jon).

I would have thought Rhaegar would just raise the children and wait for Aegon to wake dragons from stone and draw Lightbringer from the fire himself.

I just can't see him feeling the need to help Aegon along and send KG in search of dragon eggs or Lightbringer.

So I guess the KG must have been far away doing something unrelated to the prophesy.

[Sarella]

I would venture that it had something to do with Rhaegar's "changes" that he had in mind before riding to The Trident. But if the changes involved overthrowing Aerys, I don't see how the KG could help, given their vows and all.

[SFDanny]

SFDanny,

I’ve been advocating this theory for some 5-6 years know, so I’ve been through this discussion more times that I care to remember.

But my take of it is somewhat different then yours.

You see I don’t think Rhaegar assigned The Lord commander of the kingsguard to simple guard duty in the middle of a civil war(And I think Hightower would have protested strenuously if he had) because this is rather obviously an immense waste of his services.

So I believe that Rhaegar sent them on a mission of some kind, likely relating to the prophecy and that they didn’t return before the war was decided THEN they moved to the TOJ and the next heir to the throne since they were aware of Lyanna’s child. This what I believe Hightower refer to when Ned asks them where they had been. And the answer is “Far Awayâ€(which is kind of strange reply if they had been sitting on their butts in sunny Dorne throughout the war)

The other thing that makes me believe this is their incredible arrogance. Despite losing virtually the entire royal family they aren’t bashful in the slightest. In fact they scorn the loyalists that actually were doing the bleeding for the king, which once a again is kind strange if all they did in during the Targayrens hour of destiny was roasting marshmallows.

Being new to these boards I've not had the time to read through old threads on this topic (although I have read through this thread and the one that precedes it.) I'm sure I'm not breaking new ground here, and I'm surprised to find so many that take issue with the idea that the Kingsguard would not stay at the Tower of Joy unless they were guarding the heir to the throne. Sorry, if my posts bring up bad memories of old debates.

I'm not sure about the secret mission idea. I don't find it at all troubling that Rhaegar would send three of the men he trusted most to guard Lyanna and her coming child in the midst of a rebellion. Secrecy is her greatest ally, so Lyanna's location would have been a closely guarded secret. The fewer the people there the better in order to maintain the secret, so a large force of men to guard her had to be ruled out. That means the few who know must be necessary, must be trusted, and must be highly skilled. Sounds like a job for the guys who were selected. Now, somebody leaked the information in order for Ned to find his sister, but that doesn't change the basic strategy of secrecy. It just means that, like so many other things the Targaryens did in this rebellion, it didn't work. Perhaps because the necessities of Lyanna's pregnancy demanded more people to attend her than could keep the secret? I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me to find out the location was learned from a fleeing servant or a messenger who had travelled there (the Kingsguard obviously got the news of the war's progress.)

I'm also afraid that, other than the remarks directed toward Jaime, that I don't find the tone of their answers disdainful of their allies. Of the rebels, yes. Confidant of their own abilities, absolutely.

Having said all that, I find your observation on the use of the phrase "far away" intriguing. It could mean they, or some of the Kingsguard at least, had other tasks as well. I had just assumed that the phrase referred to their remoteness at the Tower of Joy, but you could be right. One thing that has me wondering is all the hints about something in Lyanna's tomb. Something is there to expose the truth to Jon - if we believe his dreams. Did the Kingsguard bring something back to the Tower of Joy that would only be trusted to them? Did Ned find it and place it with Lyanna's body? Given Rhaegar's interpretation of the prophecy, the ancient sword of the Targaryens could be the answer. A secret trip across the Narrow Sea to steal back Blackfyre? Perhaps more dragon eggs? It all makes for fascinating speculation, but I don't see a lot of hard evidence.

[Sarella]

I don't know if I buy the idea that there is something physical in the crypts that will reveal L+R=J. I think Jon's dream (where he is walking through Winterfell looking for someone and always finds himself at the crypts) just signifies how he doesn't know who he is, only that he is not a Stark, and that who he is looking for is in the crypts.

He will eventually find out that Lyanna is his mother and the dream will make sense to him, but I doubt there's actually something in the crypts for him to find.

[Godot]

Being new to these boards I've not had the time to read through old threads on this topic (although I have read through this thread and the one that precedes it.) I'm sure I'm not breaking new ground here, and I'm surprised to find so many that take issue with the idea that the Kingsguard would not stay at the Tower of Joy unless they were guarding the heir to the throne. Sorry, if my posts bring up bad memories of old debates.

I'm not sure about the secret mission idea. I don't find it at all troubling that Rhaegar would send three of the men he trusted most to guard Lyanna and her coming child in the midst of a rebellion. Secrecy is her greatest ally, so Lyanna's location would have been a closely guarded secret. The fewer the people there the better in order to maintain the secret, so a large force of men to guard her had to be ruled out. That means the few who know must be necessary, must be trusted, and must be highly skilled. Sounds like a job for the guys who were selected. Now, somebody leaked the information in order for Ned to find his sister, but that doesn't change the basic strategy of secrecy. It just means that, like so many other things the Targaryens did in this rebellion, it didn't work. Perhaps because the necessities of Lyanna's pregnancy demanded more people to attend her than could keep the secret? I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me to find out the location was learned from a fleeing servant or a messenger who had travelled there (the Kingsguard obviously got the news of the war's progress.)

I'm also afraid that, other than the remarks directed toward Jaime, that I don't find the tone of their answers disdainful of their allies. Of the rebels, yes. Confidant of their own abilities, absolutely.

Either Barristan Selmy or Jaime told them. That seems most likely.

[SFDanny]

I don't know if I buy the idea that there is something physical in the crypts that will reveal L+R=J. I think Jon's dream (where he is walking through Winterfell looking for someone and always finds himself at the crypts) just signifies how he doesn't know who he is, only that he is not a Stark, and that who he is looking for is in the crypts.

He will eventually find out that Lyanna is his mother and the dream will make sense to him, but I doubt there's actually something in the crypts for him to find.

There are too many possibilities here for what could be in the crypts. Your guess could well be right, but I get the impression that Jon has to go down into them and find something. How would finding Lyanna's tomb or her body tell him about his mother? I don't know, but if it is a tangible object then the question becomes why would Ned put it there? To hid away the secret of who Jon is, but what could reveal his Targaryen heritage? Even an item like the sword Blackfyre might not do so - though it would give a huge hint. It also would be something Ned would not display to anyone else.

Godot, I tried to post a summary of the possibilities of how Ned learned of Lyanna's location way back in post #406. You might want to read that and some of the great additions from others in that discussion. Both Ser Barristan and Jaime are considered along with other possible sources.

[snake]

I believed that that you weren’t interested in the facts of the matter and simply twisted things to make them look like you wanted them to be. It seems like I was wrong so I apologize for my harsh tone.

No problem and I will also apologize for my tone in my last post.

Now, that being said, I still don't buy that the three were there protecting Rhaegar's legitimate child who was heir to the throne.

Because such was king Aerys will. Hightower for instance wanted to stay with the king instead of Jaime but was overruled.

That was at Harrenhal and Ser Gerold wanted to return to Kingslanding to protect the Queen and the children so the Kingslayer could participate in the tourney.

[Enguerrand]

SFDanny, I have gone the same rounds on the matter with Snake and others over several pages in this thread from post 97 and on. You might find our exchange enlightening.

I don't find it at all troubling that Rhaegar would send three of the men he trusted most to guard Lyanna and her coming child in the midst of a rebellion.

The thing is that Hightower is a member of the small council, like a minister in the government, someone that would be expected to make a difference leading the troops in battle (presumably this is the reason Aerys detached them, for they were the only people that could slake his rampant paranoia. This is like if the chief of the Air Force is asked to make rounds around a compound with the vice-presidents mistress/second wife in the middle of desperate war. It just seem unbelieavable to me.

The Kingsguard primary concern is the king’s safety and I believe Rhaegar needed to have given them a very good reason to make them accept a situation were they couldn’t respond to change in the threat level to the king. Even if Lyanna’s child is trueborn he shouldn’t matter that much, since he is so far down the succession order.

Secrecy is her greatest ally, so Lyanna's location would have been a closely guarded secret.

Yet people seem to know about the TOJ, As I said, I would think Rhaegar could find a some other people that trusted with such simple duty, if he was really concerned leaving one of the kingsguard supervising them, but three? And the most senior?

If that wasn’t enough, why not send her to King’s Landing or Dragonstone? It doesn’t seem to be a secret that she is with him and it should be possible to hide her pregnancy at that point.

I'm also afraid that, other than the remarks directed toward Jaime, that I don't find the tone of their answers disdainful of their allies.

“I looked for you on the Trident,†Ned said to them.

“We were not there,†Ser Gerold answered.

“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,†said Ser Oswell.

They are saying that if they had been there and not just the bums that actually fought, the outcome would have been different. I certainly consider it a slight on those who actually were doing the bleeding.

“When King’s Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.â€

“Far away,†Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.â€

Once again, the implication is that either they are superhuman or the King’s Landing garnison and the household guard didn’t do what was expected of them. Once again they boast that their skill and ability would be the difference between victory and defeat. Had I been part of the loyalist army and heard this I certainly would have been offended. Most especially since they apparently done nothing but roasting marshmallows around a campfire while the royal family was massacred.

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you

might have sailed with him.â€

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,†said Ser Oswell.

“But not of the Kingsguard,†Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.â€

They are implying that while Darry certainly is doing a good thing saving the remnants of the royal family(something that you would think the kingsguard would take keen interest in) he is not so badass as they. They are doing something with a “higher†purpose than this.

Notice that they express no guilt or remorse? They don’t care to justify themselves for spectacularly failing in their charge in front of a peer of the realm that is clearly mystified by their actions. All they give him are boasts and we have se-c-r-e-t.

A secret trip across the Narrow Sea to steal back Blackfyre? Perhaps more dragon eggs? It all makes for fascinating speculation, but I don't see a lot of hard evidence.

There isn't any. it's just my attempt to reconcile the Kingsguard's actions and behaviour.

[Hedge Knight]

The primary duty of the Kings Guard is to protect the King and royal family. They aren't emmissaries or diplomats of the King. IMO, to send 3 KGs on a secret mission it should involve the royal Family. Why not the secret transport of Aegon to safety? Just one possibility but I am open to other possibilities.

Getting Lightbringer or trying to make an alliance with the Free Cities. or hiring the Golden Co. would be a job for a trusted bannerman, not 3 Kings Guards.

[Enguerrand]

They aren't emmissaries or diplomats of the King.

The kingsguard seem to perform a slew task not directly relating to bodyguarding when convinient, some have served as Hand of the king or military adminstrators I can't see why they couldn't do diplomacy.

Why not the secret transport of Aegon to safety? Just one possibility but I am open to other possibilities.

I explained to you why I didn’t think so in post 580#.

[Guest Other-in-law]

The thing is that Hightower is a member of the small council, like a minister in the government, someone that would be expected to make a difference leading the troops in battle

My suspicion is that the Hightower stayed at the ToJ because Rhaegar wanted him out of the way for his planned coup against Aerys, and ordered him to stay even if the original expectation was that they would return together. He was in KL when the Starks burned, so presumably it was originally just Dayne and Whent with Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Hightower may have felt obligated to side with his King (no matter how horrible he was) over his Prince in a power struggle. Rhaegar could have been concerned about that possibility and kept him out of the plot, just as Ned didn't risk approaching Selmy about his plot against Joffrey.

[Hedge Knight]

Regarding the 3 KG on a mission to take Aegon to safety, your reply:

Rather unlikely since the king wanted Rhaegar’s children in King’s Landing to safeguard Dorne’s allegiance. The kingsguard would hardly defy the king.

The King didn't really need Rhaegar's children? He had Elia, Prince Martell's beloved sister in KL. Also Rhaenys if only Aegon would have been taken. And Dorne has always been a strong ally to the Targaryens.

The Kingsguard would not defy the King....but they could also take orders from Rhaegar.

I am not saying this is what definitely happened. I am just trying to logically piece together a possible scenario based on limited info. I like your idea of the 3 KG on a special mission. And they deal with the royal family. I think it is very possible that they took Aegon. And when questioned, GRRM seems to indicate that Aegon may still be alive.

A furthur idea of their mission - take Aegon to safety in Dorne and negotiate with Doran Martell the secret engagement of Arianne to Viscerys, furthur binding the 2 houses. This promise of marriage came out at the end of AFFC. When was this "promise" of Ariane to Viscerys made?? I don't know. I dont think it has been brought out yet by GRRM so I'm just continuing the speculation of their mission. But it was probably made by King Aerys because after Aerys was killed who could have negotiated this on behalf of Viscerys? Viscerys didnt seem to know about the promise of Ariane either.

[Sarella]

Hedge Knight, it is possible that Aegon is alive and well, but I really doubt it.

1) It would have required too much foresight on Rhaegar's behalf. He would have had to predict his own death on the trident and Tywin's betrayal, among other things. But we know from his own words in a Jaime flashback that he was expecting to win on The Trident.

2) Rhaegar was determined to have three heads of the dragon. He went to the trouble of siring Jon with Lyanna (because Elia was sickly) in order to have three heads. Why would he spirit Aegon away and leave Rhaenys in danger? He would end up with only two heads of the dragon.

3) GRRM not confirming Aegon's death is most likely because an Aegon pretender (The Mummer's Dragon from Dany's vision) will show up in later books. If GRRM confirmed that Aegon was dead, the reader would immediately know the Aegon pretender is fake. But because he has left it open, the reader will wonder whether or not it really is Aegon.

[Sarella]

Edit: realized i'd already made the same point earlier in this thread.

[Piper]

The King didn't really need Rhaegar's children? He had Elia, Prince Martell's beloved sister in KL. Also Rhaenys if only Aegon would have been taken. And Dorne has always been a strong ally to the Targaryens.

They have been strongly tied together since Daeron II married a Myriah Martell, but that won't stop the ever paranoid Aerys from jumping at shadows; we know that he suspected Lewyn had betrayed Rhaegar on the Trident, so the Mad King certainly did not see them as air tight allies.

[Hedge Knight]

OK. No one seems to like the Aegon substitue idea so I will drop it. I still dont buy the top 3 KG guarding Lyana all of this time but will wait and see what other info surfaces.

R + L = J Yes

[SFDanny]

SFDanny, I have gone the same rounds on the matter with Snake and others over several pages in this thread from post 97 and on. You might find our exchange enlightening.

You know I read through this thread, but I can't honestly say I remember all the discussions I didn't participate in. I'm glad you pointed out your previous posts and can see that much of this has been covered there. Sorry, for the repetition, and I hope this round added something to this topic.

The thing is that Hightower is a member of the small council, like a minister in the government, someone that would be expected to make a difference leading the troops in battle (presumably this is the reason Aerys detached them, for they were the only people that could slake his rampant paranoia. This is like if the chief of the Air Force is asked to make rounds around a compound with the vice-presidents mistress/second wife in the middle of desperate war. It just seem unbelievable to me.

I don't find this unbelievable, and let me tell you why. First, the guarding the King and the King's line of succession is the primary responsibility of the Kingsguard. In that way your analogy to the chief of the Air Force falls apart. Hightower is fulfilling part of his main task with the assignment, just as a US Air Force chief would be if he was sitting in a NORAD bunker instead of flying missions. Second, Lyanna isn't just Rhaegar's second wife. She is one of the major causes for the continuation of the war. Ned and Robert want her back and want desperately to find her. Too prevent this, Rhaegar has hidden her away and given the task of defending her over to a very select group of men - it would not be easy to secure her and still maintain secrecy with another group of defenders. And lastly, the rebels aren't the only ones who pose a threat to Lyanna and her child. The Mad King can't be too happy about his son being in love with the sister and betrothed of his two most important opponents. Nor is it certain that the Dornish are too happy about a second wife and another child with claims to the throne. So, it makes sense to me that the three men are assigned to protect her - although this doesn't rule out other responsibilities as well if they feel the primary task is taken care of.

The Kingsguard primary concern is the king’s safety and I believe Rhaegar needed to have given them a very good reason to make them accept a situation were they couldn’t respond to change in the threat level to the king. Even if Lyanna’s child is trueborn he shouldn’t matter that much, since he is so far down the succession order.

Yet people seem to know about the TOJ, As I said, I would think Rhaegar could find a some other people that trusted with such simple duty, if he was really concerned leaving one of the kingsguard supervising them, but three? And the most senior?

If that wasn’t enough, why not send her to King’s Landing or Dragonstone? It doesn’t seem to be a secret that she is with him and it should be possible to hide her pregnancy at that point.

I think I responded to most of this in the previous paragraph, but let me say I think somethings catch them unawares and off guard, just as they did with Rhaegar. In particular, the arrival of the Lannisters, and their betrayal by Tywin after Aerys foolishly lets his forces into King's Landing, caught all the Targaryens off guard. Rhaegar didn't plan for such an eventuality and neither did the three Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy. Without the Lannisters and without Aery's foolish act, the city probably still stands against the rebels. Not only that but a besieging army could well find itself in a very difficult situation if forces can be brought up from Highgarden to help - or if the Lannisters had remained true to Aerys. In such a situation, it still makes sense to have Lyanna and child guarded in the way they planned.

“I looked for you on the Trident,†Ned said to them.

“We were not there,†Ser Gerold answered.

“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,†said Ser Oswell.

They are saying that if they had been there and not just the bums that actually fought, the outcome would have been different. I certainly consider it a slight on those who actually were doing the bleeding.

See, I don't take this as a slight to Ser Barristan and the rest of the Kingsguard who fought at the Trident. Or towards any of the royal forces there. Rhaegar thought he would win and I don't think these men thought otherwise. They are only expressing their hatred for Robert and their belief they would have killed him if they were there.

“When King’s Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.â€

“Far away,†Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.â€

Once again, the implication is that either they are superhuman or the King’s Landing garnison and the household guard didn’t do what was expected of them. Once again they boast that their skill and ability would be the difference between victory and defeat. Had I been part of the loyalist army and heard this I certainly would have been offended. Most especially since they apparently done nothing but roasting marshmallows around a campfire while the royal family was massacred.

Here their disdain for Jaime is not even barely concealed. Beyond that, I don't see how you can draw the conclusion they thought those who fought for the King during the sack where contemptible. That's just not where their hatred is directed.

Yes, these guys are confident they are the best of the best. Perhaps that's because they are. It doesn't follow that saying so spits on their comrades.

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you

might have sailed with him.â€

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,†said Ser Oswell.

“But not of the Kingsguard,†Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.â€

They are implying that while Darry certainly is doing a good thing saving the remnants of the royal family(something that you would think the kingsguard would take keen interest in) he is not so badass as they. They are doing something with a “higher†purpose than this.

Right. That higher purpose is putting just the three of themselves between the heir to the throne and any rebels who would harm him. There's no slight to Ser Willem in this, he isn't of the Kingsguard and doesn't have to stay at the Tower of Joy to defend the new King against these odds.

Notice that they express no guilt or remorse? They don’t care to justify themselves for spectacularly failing in their charge in front of a peer of the realm that is clearly mystified by their actions. All they give him are boasts and we have se-c-r-e-t.

There isn't any. it's just my attempt to reconcile the Kingsguard's actions and behaviour.

Why would they tell Ned about how bad they felt about his and Robert's victories and the deaths of their King and his family? This isn't the place for that. This is the place for standing bravely before a foe who outnumbers you two to one and saying "How dare you come here and threaten my King. You shall go no father without going through us." Which, in essence, is exactly what they did.

Now, I do like your secret mission interpretation of "Far Away." It's made me think about it in a new way. I'm thinking more and more there should be a connection between this and Lyanna's tomb.

[Sarella]

SFDanny,

If there is something in the crypts that tells Jon his heritage, it will only tell him who his parents are, not that they were married (because Ned didn't know of any marriage). Jon will still have to find out about the marriage from someone else. But of course none of this will happen because I am 100% certain that there is no tangible object in the crypts, and 80% certain R and L weren't married. The dreams of the crypts are more hints for the reader than for Jon.

Back to Jon=king argument.

The only evidence cited that R & L were married is that 3 KG guard the tower of joy. However their presence can be explained.

You said yourself that their primary duty is to guard the king, and that if the king is safe they can perform other duties. E.g. Balon Swann is taking a skull to Dorne. Viserys was safe with Willem Darry, which left these three free to continue following Rhaegar's orders. Just as Aerys was considered safe enough in KL, and Rhaegar was considered safe enough on The Trident for them to continue with Rhaegar's orders.

Now, I do like your secret mission interpretation of "Far Away." It's made me think about it in a new way. I'm thinking more and more there should be a connection between this and Lyanna's tomb.

I don't think there can be a connection between the mission of these 3 KG and Lyanna's tomb, considering that Lyanna was alive and well at the time, not buried in the crypts.

[Ser Bruce the Hound KG]

for the mine thing is not that 3 KG are at the Tower of Joy but that there great sword of them all maybe one of the great sword that ever lived and Rhagers close and most trusted friend is there.

Also as to the KG not going with the king(?) the KG are allowed to leve the king in the care of other trust men when there duty demand that they be else where. In ASoS Tommard is left under the protect of Ser Garlan Tryell and Kettleblack brother when Jamie call to meet with him. The 3 Knight at the Tower of Joy truly see that Viserys is safe with Ser Willem Darry and therefore can carry out Rhanger command