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The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread, Part II


Werthead

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I must say, SFDanny, that this new revelation about Jon Connington has made the Rhaegar and Lyanna marriage more likely.

When reading the story of The Knight of the Laughing Tree, and working out who everybody was (i.e. the "red snake" is Oberyn, the "white sword" is Arthur Dayne etc), I was stumped for some time on "the lord of griffins". I figured he must be reasonably important to be mentioned there at that important time (the tourney at harrenhal) and amongst all of the other important characters.

Right now I can't see any reason for his importance other than as a witness to the marriage!

So I'd say I'm now 50/50 on the L+R=married issue.

Excellent!

I take heart that nothing I've written has made you less likely to believe in the proposition. ;)

HarryStark, thanks for the correction. Edric not Eddard. In may best Emily Litella voice let me say "nevermind." :leaving:

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I didn't really consider that it would be very important who Jon was named after, but rather than remain in speechless awe at the apparent importance of every detail, I'll use your post to answer the many:

GRM stated that Jon was named by his father. Ned was at least his step father so he qualifies
.And a prior post had GRRM saying he was most likely named by Ned. I hope both of you aren"t correct because in that case it could be construed to be a Freudian slip by GRRM telling us that Ned is John's father. But I don't really think that was what you(or GRRM meant). I mean, what can I say, its not really clear.

By GRRM again Jon is eight of nine month older then Dany. This means that he was born after Rhaegar already died.

I won't comment here because it seems that you've written something you didn't mean. Check it out and if you can, repost.

Rhaegar named two of his children after Aegon the first and his sister. He expected one more child so if this would be a girl he would name her after Aegon second sister. A son? We don’t know but with one exception Targaryens had their family names. Egg named his son after his friend but he most probably had some very exceptional reasons to do that. Most probably Dunk saved his life on some point or something like that.

And if Jon Connington had somehow played a significant part in the whole R+L=J thing? Would that possibly merit the honor? We just reaaly are short on facts.

Jon Connington was exiled shortly before the Trident. He didn’t have time to drunk himself to death and no reason by the time as well as Rhaegar would doubtless call his friend from exile.

Just a rumour.

But what I found most curious in the other post, was the assumption that childrens names aren't selected until after birth. We've got those poor ravens going back and forth so much I'm starting to wonder why we all pay for cell phone service. But seriously. those of us with children know that names are normally picked out months in advance, with one for a girl and one for a boy. Really quite simple.

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The idea of Connington as a witness to the wedding is an interesting idea. Arthur Dayne was also there, wasn't he? Could he be another witness as well, if there was a marriage in Harrenhall?

Think of what you're saying here. Lyanna Stark, a noble born woman, in a Vegas wedding so she can have a quickie romp with an already married Prince? Annulment to follow? Sounds alot like the Sailors Wife(he-he, I've got some ideas on that and her daughter Lanna) Lyanna Brittany Spears Stark just doesn't cut it and is unneeded. The Blackfyre Rebellion (which failed by a whisker) shows how it is done. Get enough support from other nobles and anybody can be king. Even Gendry.

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The idea of Connington as a witness to the wedding is an interesting idea. Arthur Dayne was also there, wasn't he? Could he be another witness as well, if there was a marriage in Harrenhall?

Yes, but I don't think he's going to step forward and say anything any time soon :)

What bothers me about a wedding at Harrenhal is still that Ned thinks of Jon as a bastard. If the wedding occurred at Harrenhal, wouldn't Howland or Ned know about it? I would have thought one or both of them would have been with Lyanna when Rhaegar found her. Or wouldn't Lyanna have told Benjen when they were back at Winterfell? I mean, knowing the kind of person she was, I doubt she could have kept completely quiet that she'd just married a young hot prince.

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The following and my response comes from this thread.

I just do not rule out that Martin maybe messing with us on this.

Have you ever seen the classic Hollywood movie "Anastasia"? I get the feeling Varys and Illyrio may well be involved in a similar type scam instead of any real Targaryen restoration. The whole "Mummer's Dragon" thing makes me think this is much more likely than them having any real knowledge of a hidden Targaryen. My take is Varys and the kindly merchant Mopatis may well be in this for themselves, and any real claims to the throne be damned.

I don’t know since their motivations remains a mystery. But if they are driven by the prophecy then there must be a real thing. Varys was able to switch babies and save Aegon and if the last is alive he will make much better claimant to the throne then Viserys or Dany. This will explain neglecting of them too.

Yet fake Aegon is also a possibility but then what do Varys and Illirio want for themselves? By the way Varys was a mummer.

My assumption is that, because the Targaryens accepted the Seven before the invasion, that their previous polygamous marriages were sanctioned by the faith. Am I wrong in this? Whichever way the marriage took place, the important part for unraveling the mystery is that some witness had to have been there. If so, are they alive and will we meet them in the story. I agree, Connington seems to be the best bet.

It seem that Aegon married both of his sisters before Targaryens accepted the Seven and Maegor that had several wives on the same time also had a severe conflict with the church. Later Targaryens all had only one wife at least what we know. So while there surely was a precedent to find a septon that would marry Rhaegar for the second time could be a difficult particularly since whoever agreed for it would have risk the rage of the King. So the marriage at the godswood that did not required septon seems more likely to me. And yes Jon Connington is by far the best candidate for surviving witness.

On another note, thinking of young Ned Dayne, does anyone else find it odd that the heir to Starfall would be named after the man who killed The Sword of the Morning, and caused Lady Ashara to take her own life in grief? I've got to think that was one hell of a trip through Dorne to get that kind of response. Obviously there is much more going on here than we are led to believe (Aegon the Darkstar? R+L=J+?) ;)

If Aegon is alive he is not Darkstar or anyone in Westeros. The reason to save him would be to place him on the throne so he must be prepared for the task. And preserved as well. Just like Bran should get a proper education while he is “deadâ€. So Aegon should be most probably in the same place as Jon Connington who perfectly fits for his tutor task. This could explain why he faked his own death.

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SFDanny,

The Targaryens accepted the Seven when they arrived on Dragonstone after their departure from Valyria. Aegon and his sisters were raised in the Faith.

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SFDanny,

The Targaryens accepted the Seven when they arrived on Dragonstone after their departure from Valyria. Aegon and his sisters were raised in the Faith.

Then I was right in this. The polygamous marriages of the Targaryens had to have been sanctioned by the Faith. Thanks for clearing that up, Ran.

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Guest Other-in-law

And along those lines, Aerion Brightflame's exercise of his right to a Trial by Seven (which hadn't been done in over a century) in tHK supports the idea of long-dormant privileges remaining 'on the books' in Westeros.

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I don’t know since their motivations remains a mystery. But if they are driven by the prophecy then there must be a real thing. Varys was able to switch babies and save Aegon and if the last is alive he will make much better claimant to the throne then Viserys or Dany. This will explain neglecting of them too. Yet fake Aegon is also a possibility but then what do Varys and Illirio want for themselves? By the way Varys was a mummer.

See my response here (within the previously-mentioned thread) about the whole "abandonement" idea.

Why would Varys be entrusted to switch the babies, anyway?

It seem that Aegon married both of his sisters before Targaryens accepted the Seven and Maegor that had several wives on the same time also had a severe conflict with the church. Later Targaryens all had only one wife at least what we know.

Ran has basically disproved this, insofar as it can be disproven. Who knows what the conflict with the Faith in Maegor's day was about?

So while there surely was a precedent to find a septon that would marry Rhaegar for the second time could be a difficult particularly since whoever agreed for it would have risk the rage of the King. So the marriage at the godswood that did not required septon seems more likely to me.

Why would anyone be risking the rage of the king? The point still remains that the Faith is the official religion of the 7K and in order for the marriage to have been recognised (and thus Jon being legit) there must've been a septon.

And yes Jon Connington is by far the best candidate for surviving witness. If Aegon is alive he is not Darkstar or anyone in Westeros. The reason to save him would be to place him on the throne so he must be prepared for the task. And preserved as well. Just like Bran should get a proper education while he is “deadâ€. So Aegon should be most probably in the same place as Jon Connington who perfectly fits for his tutor task. This could explain why he faked his own death.

Plausible, admittedly, but I'd still say that Aegon the Darkstar is more likely. Connington was off fighting in the Reach before being summoned back to KL and dismissed as Hand and exiled. The baby would've had to have gone with him - would it not have raised some suspicions? Ashara Dayne, on the other hand, could've easily smuggled the baby she & Arthur & Rhaegar swapped, without anyone's attention being attracted.

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Yes, but I don't think he's going to step forward and say anything any time soon :)

What bothers me about a wedding at Harrenhal is still that Ned thinks of Jon as a bastard. If the wedding occurred at Harrenhal, wouldn't Howland or Ned know about it? I would have thought one or both of them would have been with Lyanna when Rhaegar found her. Or wouldn't Lyanna have told Benjen when they were back at Winterfell? I mean, knowing the kind of person she was, I doubt she could have kept completely quiet that she'd just married a young hot prince.

Good point. If they ever were married, and indeed if they were married at the time of the Tourney, rather than later, you'd have thought she'd have told someone about it!

Regardless of whether the marriage happened or not, and whether Jon Connington was a witness or not, it does make R+L=J is more likely (why would Ned or Ashara or anyone else name their child after that griffin lord who's a friend of the prince against whom they were rebelling?) And actually, I wouldn't say that Jon being named after him makes the marriage having happened more or less likely; Rhaegar may've just as easily wanted to name a son after Connington because he was fresh in his mind due to being exiled/etc.

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If Lyanna and Rhaegar married and wanted it kept secret, I think they'd've done it in King's Landing with someone they trusted totally marrying them and the only witnesses being trustworthy as well. Why would they marry at Harrenhal?

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If Lyanna and Rhaegar married and wanted it kept secret, I think they'd've done it in King's Landing with someone they trusted totally marrying them and the only witnesses being trustworthy as well. Why would they marry at Harrenhal?

I'm inclined to the post-Tourney marriage, but I agree that a secret Harrenhal ceremony can't be rule out.

I've a question though. Shewoman, you raise the likelihood of a King's Landing marriage, but do we even know that the couple went there? My guess is that given Aerys' disposition towards the Knight of the Laughing Tree, and possible ill feelings coming from Elia and her family, that the couple went straight to the Tower of Joy. Do we know different?

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If Lyanna and Rhaegar married and wanted it kept secret, I think they'd've done it in King's Landing with someone they trusted totally marrying them and the only witnesses being trustworthy as well. Why would they marry at Harrenhal?

Well, all they needed was already there: godswood, witnesses, even a septon. Why not?

BTW, does anyone have an idea when Lyanna was 'abducted' by Rhaegar?

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If she knows the actual danger of telling people she married Rhaegar (while she was bethrothed to Robert), she could have kept her mouth shut.

What danger? When Robb married Jeyne in breach of his betrothal to a Frey to be named later, everyone expected Lord Walder to suck it up. A little petty revenge was to be expected, but his actual response staggered all of Westeros. I'm sure Robert would have been furious, but if this really had been Lyanna's choice, the thing to do would be make it as public as possible. You explain that you got swept away, the deed is done, sorry about your broken heart but here, have some Lannister second-purse to make it up to you. Keeping it secret was the absolute worst possible response, not least because, if nothing else, it can't be kept secret. Sooner or later Robert expects a marriage, and if Lyanna's already married that can't happen. What's Rhaegar going to do, lock her in a tower incommunicado for the rest of her life? Yeah, that screams true love.

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What danger? When Robb married Jeyne in breach of his betrothal to a Frey to be named later, everyone expected Lord Walder to suck it up. A little petty revenge was to be expected, but his actual response staggered all of Westeros. I'm sure Robert would have been furious, but if this really had been Lyanna's choice, the thing to do would be make it as public as possible. You explain that you got swept away, the deed is done, sorry about your broken heart but here, have some Lannister second-purse to make it up to you. Keeping it secret was the absolute worst possible response, not least because, if nothing else, it can't be kept secret. Sooner or later Robert expects a marriage, and if Lyanna's already married that can't happen. What's Rhaegar going to do, lock her in a tower incommunicado for the rest of her life? Yeah, that screams true love.

What it screams is that Rhaegar weds Lyanna against what he knows to be his father's wishes, and most likely the wishes of Elia and her family. That's why it is kept secret, not just problems with the Baratheons and the Starks.

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Well, all they needed was already there: godswood, witnesses, even a septon. Why not?

I'm sorry but I need to go off topic for just one second. I find it hilarious that it seems people in Westeros are always sneaking off to the godswood when seeking privacy. If said godswood has a weirwood tree, it would seem that the greenseers of the cotf would see it all. If Bran does find the cotf, boy is he in for an earful! I'm actually envious. Centuries woth of gossip(ala Becky kissed Joey, or Lyanna married the Prince) would be better than a gold mine for an old voyeur like me.

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Why would Varys be entrusted to switch the babies, anyway?

He probably did it in the very last minute and didn’t asked anyone permission.

Ran has basically disproved this, insofar as it can be disproven. Who knows what the conflict with the Faith in Maegor's day was about?

Why would anyone be risking the rage of the king? The point still remains that the Faith is the official religion of the 7K and in order for the marriage to have been recognised (and thus Jon being legit) there must've been a septon.

I would like to see some link for a proof but anyway there is some difference between “approved†and was forced to approve. For all me know about relations between Targaryens and the faith they were far from cloudless.

As for Aerys rage he was a Mad King remember? So his reaction for anything that he didn’t approve before was quite unpredictable and potentially extremely dangerous.

Plausible, admittedly, but I'd still say that Aegon the Darkstar is more likely. Connington was off fighting in the Reach before being summoned back to KL and dismissed as Hand and exiled. The baby would've had to have gone with him - would it not have raised some suspicions? Ashara Dayne, on the other hand, could've easily smuggled the baby she & Arthur & Rhaegar swapped, without anyone's attention being attracted.

I don’t think that Connington was involved into babies switching. By the time he was exiled there wasn’t yet any necessary to do this. Rhaegar children were in danger only after Trident and in grave danger only after Aerys ordered the city gates open. But Varys was with the King that time and tried to persuade him not to allow Tywin into the city. Failing that Varys would probably still have time to find some baby in the Flea Bottom and bring him to Maegor’s by secret passage while Gregor and his men were scaling it’s walls. It this theory Connington would be involved later. If Varys saved the baby and shipped him to Illirio the last would need to find a tutor to raise him. Connington clearly the best candidate to the job so Illirio contacted him and Connington “died†to reappear only when Aegon is ready. And if lady Ashara faked her suicide as well I don’t know what was her involvement into the story.

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