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Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 2


wolfmaid7

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First i want to thank everyone that took part in the project ,and a special thanks to the troopers that furnished us with the essays.I decided to have everyone do summaries just to refresh what has been discussed through the project as part as an extended OP. We then simply debate what has been put forth like before and  have more of a compare/ comparison  look at each essay and the points in relation to the story.Not every point made appear in the summaries ,but feel free to ask questions about a point, or raise a point not reiterated in the summary.

What seemed to be of importance when discussing Jon's parentage are the following:

1.Narrative sense.

2.Thematic sense.

3."Evidence." I put that in quotation because if there's one thing this project has shown is there are difference of opinions in what constituites as evidence.

4.Timeline is another sub topic that is hotly debated and we can't get away from it,so in the mix it is.

If i forgot anything that you guys think should have been on the list but isn't ,go right ahead and bring it up.

Lastly,we all can get a little heated under the collar when discussing this (guilty of that myself),so lets try and keep it as civil as possible and just have a nice discussion.

Jump in at anytime to discuss "once" I've posted all (7-8)  summaries.

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Previous thread was closed on the dot of 20 i realize!!!! 

Everybody breathe (In and out) we made it through.Got the steam out i hope to allow for a more directed and focused conversation.So as i said previously for years we have been hearing that there is only one possibility to Jon's parentage.Well a large portion of us don't buy that and have been a bit confused on the foundation for which this theory stands.It is the standard that have been set we have been told and no other theory comes close.Ok bold statement,big claim.I asked anyone from team Rhaegar + Lyanna=Jon to point by point go over what they believe secures this theory as numero uno.Purpose,so we can look at it more carefully and compare it to what other have to say and look at point for point why others have a different perspective. We have been kind of jumping all over the place with arguements, and i really need your guys help in keeping it on target.We will go through all the points that everyone is raising pros and cons.We just need some sense and order to these disussions because its really hard just trying keep track when everyone is speaking about different things in the entire topic.Its like a back room brawl instead of a ordered debate.That honestly,messes with my sense of calm and i know you guys don't find it pleasant either.

@Ygrain made a statement on a thread she linked that Rhaegar and Lyanna's love for each other is the "staple" of RLJ.This is a true statement in that we have all heard it.Let's start there and once we talk this through and every prospect has their say and rebuttal in this piece we will move on to another aspect put forth by RLJ.RLJ because you have claimed you are the standard to which eveyone including yourself must meat i think we use what you all have been using for years to make your case.

Out of respect for keeping the aspect of this debate focused lets stay on topic.As i said we will get to every single point eventually.So,@Ygrain or anyone could you please state the evidence that Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love.

Lets see if we can talk about this in respect and good humor.

Thanks:cheers:

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I sure never used the word "staple" in combination with anything else but "diet", but what I posted in the previous iteration of this thread is this:

The love angle of RLJ

First of all, this is by no means an exhaustive essay, I'm afraid I don't, and won't, have the time for it. It is the very basics, or perhaps "how I figured out".

From the very beginning, we are presented with two versions of a possible connection between Rhaegar and Lyanna - rape, and love. Obviously, they cannot be true both, so which one is, or is neither?


The love angle is mentioned first but it is in Dany's filtered and romanticised recollections of Westeros, and is easily overlooked or brushed off as a second-hand account at best, whereas the rape is presented in the hands-on PoV of Ned, and as such sticks with the reader. However, the rape is contradicted by details in Ned's PoV (whereas the love angle is steadily strengthened, until it is blatantly spelled out by Barristan as "Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna").


Which details? First it is the peculiar lack of hard feelings towards Rhaegar. Ned doesn't spend much time hating on Aerys, either, but "mad king did his last mad act" reveals why - one doesn't hate on a madman just as one doesn't hate on fire, neither is really responsible for the damage . Rhaegar has no such an excuse.


Then, Ned mentions Lyanna's wolf blood that led her to an early grave. Not a thing to say about the little sister who died as a result of her abduction and rape because it removes at least a part of the agency to her - she did something rash which eventually brought her own demise.


The last and biggest nail to the coffin of the rape version is Ned pondering that Rhaegar most likely didn't frequent brothels. First, one doesn't give their sister's rapist any positive points. Ever. Second, one doesn't give the swine any positive points in the area where the sister's betrothed is failing miserably. Third, one doesn't purposefully access whatever he knows about the rapist to be able to draw a comparison between him and the betrothed, in favour of the rapist.


So, if it wasn't rape, was it love, or was there nothing?


The post-brothel musings rule out the third option, either, as it would make no sense for Ned to start thinking about Rhaegar without a reason. True, Robert is basically walking Rhaegar's shoes as king, but Robert's shortcomings as king are mentioned frequently and never spark a thought about Rhaegar, it is Robert's personal life that does - namely, his attitude to sex, love and fidelity.


However, it still doesn't make sense for Ned to think about a dead prince at this point, unless there is a common factor between Robert's and Rhaegar's personal lives. And the one and only such factor that we know of is Lyanna, whose concern about this aspect of Robert's personality is voiced right in this passage. In other words, the comparison between the two men makes sense only if they were on more or less equal terms where Lyanna was concerned - in a relationship with her. Robert as a husband-to-be chosen by her father, Rhaegar as a husband/lover chosen by Lyanna. The wolf-blood decision that killed them both.


The love angle is further supported by the trail of the blue roses in Ned's PoVs. They are constantly associated with Lyanna and what we know about Lyanna and blue roses follows a pattern of a gradual reveal - first it is roses (the room that smelled of blood and roses), then blue roses, then a garland of blue roses, and eventually we learn that it is the QoLaB crown and who gave it to Lyanna. Thus in retrospect, all the mentions about Lyanna and blue roses become mentions of Lyanna and a gift from Rhaegar, as no other instances where Lyanna might have come across blue roses are specified. No mentions about Lyanna in the glasshouses in Winterfell, or weaving blue roses into her hair since childhood, or being gifted a bouquet by Robert... The crowning is the only instance, and Rhaegar the only other person connected with the blue roses. 

That said, it doesn't necessarily mean that it was a love from the get go (though I am inclined to believe that Rhaegar's uncharacteristically inspired victory is a hint towards a feeling that he hadn't experienced before). Only that at some point, somewhere, somehow, love occured. Most likely lasted, or at least the memory of it, till their last moments, as implied by the vision of Rhaegar dying with Lyanna's name on his lips and Lyanna holding onto the roses even on her deathbed. But instead of roses and sunshine, it brought destruction and death in a most non-Disney-like fashion.

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18 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

I sure never used the word "staple" in combination with anything else but "diet", but what I posted in the previous iteration of this thread is this:

The love angle of RLJ

First of all, this is by no means an exhaustive essay, I'm afraid I don't, and won't, have the time for it. It is the very basics, or perhaps "how I figured out".

...

That said, it doesn't necessarily mean that it was a love from the get go (though I am inclined to believe that Rhaegar's uncharacteristically inspired victory is a hint towards a feeling that he hadn't experienced before). Only that at some point, somewhere, somehow, love occured. Most likely lasted, or at least the memory of it, till their last moments, as implied by the vision of Rhaegar dying with Lyanna's name on his lips and Lyanna holding onto the roses even on her deathbed. But instead of roses and sunshine, it brought destruction and death in a most non-Disney-like fashion.

Love didn't start right away... but maybe it started with a little skinny dipping?? :P

Even then, Ygritte persisted. The day before last, Jon had made the mistake of wishing he had hot water for a bath. “Cold is better,” she had said at once, “if you’ve got someone to warm you up after. The river’s only part ice yet, go on.”
Jon laughed. “You’d freeze me to death.”
“Are all crows afraid of gooseprickles? A little ice won’t kill you. I’ll jump in with you t’prove it so.”
“And ride the rest of the day with wet clothes frozen to our skins?” he objected.
Jon Snow, you know nothing. You don’t go in with clothes.”

 

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20 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

(whereas the love angle is steadily strengthened, until it is blatantly spelled out by Barristan as "Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna").

What does Barristan say about this again?  I recall him saying that if he won the tourney that Ashara would have turned to him rather than Stark. But I missed anything to do with Rhaegar and Lyanna.  And do I believe him that Ashara would have fallen into his arms if only he won the tournament.   If you win the Tourney your reward is any girl you want?  It's interesting that he would think so. :D

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11 minutes ago, LynnS said:

What does Barristan say about this again?  I recall him saying that if he won the tourney that Ashara would have turned to him rather than Stark. But I missed anything to do with Rhaegar and Lyanna.  And do I believe him that Ashara would have fallen into his arms if only he won the tournament.   If you win the Tourney your reward is any girl you want?  It's interesting that he would think so. :D

There are two times that Barristan thinks about Rhaegar and Lyanna. The first one is when he is contemplating letting Daario die or be rescued:

Better for Daenerys, and for Westeros. Daenerys Targaryen loved her captain, but that was the girl in her, not the queen. Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it

He then does on describing other relationships that caused trouble (Daemon and Daenarys, BR and Shiera,etc)

This is the second time she thinks about Rhaegar and Lyanna:

If I had been a better knight … if I had unhorsed the prince in that last tilt, as I unhorsed so many others, it would have been for me to choose the queen of love and beauty …
Rhaegar had chosen Lyanna Stark of Winterfell. Barristan Selmy would have made a different choice. Not the queen, who was not present. Nor Elia of Dorne, though she was good and gentle; had she been chosen, much war and woe might have been avoided. His choice would have been a young maiden not long at court, one of Elia's companions … though compared to Ashara Dayne, the Dornish princess was a kitchen drab.
 
His sources seem to be rumours and Barristan projecting his feelings for Ashara over Rhaegar and Lyanna.
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16 minutes ago, IceFire125 said:

Love didn't start right away... but maybe it started with a little skinny dipping?? :P

Even then, Ygritte persisted. The day before last, Jon had made the mistake of wishing he had hot water for a bath. “Cold is better,” she had said at once, “if you’ve got someone to warm you up after. The river’s only part ice yet, go on.”
Jon laughed. “You’d freeze me to death.”
“Are all crows afraid of gooseprickles? A little ice won’t kill you. I’ll jump in with you t’prove it so.”
“And ride the rest of the day with wet clothes frozen to our skins?” he objected.
Jon Snow, you know nothing. You don’t go in with clothes.”

Quite likely. Others have pointed out that the hero coming over the lady bathing is a common theme :-)

11 minutes ago, LynnS said:

What does Barristan say about this again?  I recall him saying that if he won the tourney that Ashara would have turned to him rather than Stark. But I missed anything to do with Rhaegar and Lyanna.  And do I believe him that Ashara would have fallen into his arms if only he won the tournament.   If you win the Tourney your reward is any girl you want?  It's interesting that he would think so. :D

He is rather torn about the outcome - he believes that no good could have come from professing his feelings due to his vows, but that no good came from silence, either.

3 minutes ago, Tucu said:
His sources seem to be rumours and Barristan projecting his feelings for Ashara over Rhaegar and Lyanna.

And what makes you think so? That the one guy who actually met Rhaegar and had ample opportunity to hear Rhaegar speak about Lyanna, has exactly the same type of limited info which a country minstrel might have?

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1 minute ago, Ygrain said:

And what makes you think so? That the one guy who actually met Rhaegar and had ample opportunity to hear Rhaegar speak about Lyanna, has exactly the same type of limited info which a country minstrel might have?

Another one of Barristan thoughts a couple of paragraphs before the second quote:

The Prince of Dragonstone had never trusted him as he had trusted Arthur Dayne. Harrenhal was proof of that. The year of the false spring.

Barristan was not in Rhaegar's inner circle.

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13 minutes ago, Tucu said:

If I had been a better knight … if I had unhorsed the prince in that last tilt, as I unhorsed so many others, it would have been for me to choose the queen of love and beauty …

There's a little guilt trip going on here... If I had been a better knight, if I had unhorsed the prince... I could have stopped the war.  I'm not sure why he thinks this would have stopped Rhaegar pursuing Lyanna.  Never mind his vow of celibacy.

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1 minute ago, LynnS said:

There's a little guilt trip going on here... If I had been a better knight, if I had unhorsed the prince... I could have stopped the war.  I'm not sure why he thinks this would have stopped Rhaegar pursuing Lyanna.

Yes, this is Barristan the Bold thinking that he could have stopped the storm with his lance.

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1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

whereas the rape is presented in the hands-on PoV of Ned, and as such sticks with the reader.

What sticks with me is Robert's insistence that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped her and I'm still not sure where he gets that notion.  It seems to me that he is making excuses for her death as collateral damage for a war he engaged in over control of the realm.  Although there is no doubt in my mind that he actually loved her to the point of obsession.  What we see of him is that he takes no responsibility for the realm, for his bastards.  He's a warrior who doesn't want the duties and obligations that comes with ruling the realm.  He turns a blind eye to the things he doesn't want to see.   I wouldn't put it past Robert to bed Lyanna in a drunken state at the Tourney and not remember anything about it the next morning.  Of course, somebody talked.... somebody always talks.  Presenting Lyanna with the crown of roses could have an completely different meaning entirely. 

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42 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Another one of Barristan thoughts a couple of paragraphs before the second quote:

The Prince of Dragonstone had never trusted him as he had trusted Arthur Dayne. Harrenhal was proof of that. The year of the false spring.

Barristan was not in Rhaegar's inner circle.

And you presume that after the scandal caused by Brandon in KL, Rhaegar's connection to Lyanna were still something known to only a couple of his closest friends? That Aerys never questioned his son on the matter of Lyanna Stark after his return from the south and Barristan never had a chance to be present to such a conversation? Come on.

22 minutes ago, LynnS said:

What sticks with me is Robert's insistence that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped her and I'm still not sure where he gets that notion.  It seems to me that he is making excuses for her death as collateral damage for a war he engaged in over control of the realm.  Although there is no doubt in my mind that he actually loved her to the point of obsession.  What we see of him is that he takes no responsibility for the realm, for his bastards.  He's a warrior who doesn't want the duties and obligations that comes with ruling the realm.  He turns a blind eye to the things he doesn't want to see.   I wouldn't put it past Robert to bed Lyanna in a drunken state at the Tourney and not remember anything about it the next morning.  Of course, somebody talked.... somebody always talks.  Presenting Lyanna with the crown of roses could have an completely different meaning entirely. 

I think that Robert spends a lot of time making sure not to see what he doesn't want to see. Rhaegar first showed interest in his woman and later made off with her - Seven forbid that Robert might ever acknowledge that his betrothed may not have been as thrilled about him as he was about her and that she may have preferred another man! Teh eeevil Rhaegar lusted her and carried her away to sate his vile lust on her. That's way more palatable than Lyanna not being adverse to Rhaegar's advances and giving to him willingly what Robert couldn't have.

As for the official Stark version which Bran tells Osha, I think it serves two purposes - three, actually. It confirms Robert's assumptions, so it is less likely that Ned would harbor the fruit of such an unholly union. It protects Lyanna's honour because the kidnapped victim is better than an unruly daughter who broke her betrothal and ran off with another (if this was the case), and it protects the honour of House Stark who couldn't control one teenager whose actions got everyone involved in a nasty and meaningless war (I don't see it that way but lots of Boltons and the like would use this interpretation to undermine House Stark). 

 

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I don't think the war was meaningless.  It was coming in spite of the events at the tourney.  Aerys' suspicions that there was a plot afoot is not wrong.   The Mad King was becoming a major liability to everyone.  He is the one who triggered the war.  I think the story that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna is a slander.  I think it's likely that Aerys got hold of Lyanna first and Rhaegar with Varys' help moved her south later.  I think Tywin has the most ambition and bitterness to want to frame Rhaegar and pit the stag and wolf against the dragon.  The story that he either took Lyanna or bedded her at the Tourney would be enough to send Bryndon raging onto KL and it would supply the official story.  It also removes Lyanna as Robert's betrothed and makes him available again.  All to Tywin's advantage.

   

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18 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

And you presume that after the scandal caused by Brandon in KL, Rhaegar's connection to Lyanna were still something known to only a couple of his closest friends? That Aerys never questioned his son on the matter of Lyanna Stark after his return from the south and Barristan never had a chance to be present to such a conversation? Come on.

I don't have a clue of what Rhaegar said to Aerys or how much of what he said was true.

 

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30 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Teh eeevil Rhaegar lusted her and carried her away to sate his vile lust on her.

Or this could be Robert projecting his own guilt onto Rheagar for outing him.  Telling himself over and over again that Rhaegar was responsible instead of himself as the culprit; well eventually he believes his own lies.  He dreams about him every night; killing him over and over.  It's more like Robert's honor was tarnished.

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2 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I don't think the war was meaningless. 

Neither do I, I only said that Lyanna's involvement could be used against House Stark.

2 minutes ago, LynnS said:

It was coming in spite of the events at the tourney.  Aerys' suspicions that there was a plot afoot is not wrong.   The Mad King was becoming a major liability to everyone.  He is the one who triggered the war. 

Exactly.

2 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I think the story that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna is a slander.  I think it's likely that Aerys got hold of Lyanna first and Rhaegar with Varys' help moved her south later. 

I agree that the kidnapping might have been a slander or misinterpretation. There is also a potential scenario that Rhaegar took Lyanna to protect her from Aerys, because Aerys somehow learned that she was the KotLT, whom he declared as his enemy.

2 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I think Tywin has the most ambition and bitterness to want to frame Rhaegar and pit the stag and wolf against the dragon. 

At this point, Tywin was still waiting for Elia to die and be replaced by Cersei, so I don't think he was the one involved in the behind the scenes machinations against Rhaegar.

2 minutes ago, LynnS said:

The story that he either took Lyanna or bedded her at the Tourney would be enough to send Bryndon raging onto KL and it would supply the official story. 

Yeah, it is rather peculiar what it was that Brandon learned and from what source. We get only a sketchy version of what Brandon did when he arrived at KL, but I've always found it telling that he is more interested in killing Rhaegar than rescuing his supposedly abducted sister. As if he knew that it was not an abduction and meant to take revenge on the guy who seduced and dishonoured his sister.

 

4 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I don't have a clue of what Rhaegar said to Aerys or how much of what he said was true.

I'm not claiming I do - what I am saying is that Barristan's account shouldn't be dismissed so easily because he was actually in a position to learn things.

 

2 minutes ago, LynnS said:

It also removes Lyanna as Robert's betrothed and makes him available again.  All to Tywin's advantage.

Rhaegar was the prize Tywin had his eyes on at that time.

 

3 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Or this could be Robert projecting his own guilt onto Rheagar for outing him.  Telling himself over and over again that Rhaegar was responsible instead of himself as the culprit; well eventually he believes his own lies.  He dreams about him every night; killing him over and over.  It's more like Robert's honor was tarnished.

He also blames Rhaegar for the utter failure that his life has become - married to a woman who hates his guts, sitting the throne he never wanted and fucking up big time. If not for Rhaegar, this wouldn't have happened, it would all be roses and sunshine with Lyanna.

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2 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

I'm not claiming I do - what I am saying is that Barristan's account shouldn't be dismissed so easily because he was actually in a position to learn things.

The only KG that we know was in the Red Keep at the time of Rhaegar's return was Jamie. We are told that Barristan and Darry were gathering the survivors of the army and Martell was sent to command the Dornish troops. So all he has are second hand stories. If in the next books Barristant remembers deep conversations about love with Rhaegar, then we can improve the status of his opinion.

 

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2 minutes ago, Tucu said:

The only KG that we know was in the Red Keep at the time of Rhaegar's return was Jamie. We are told that Barristan and Darry were gathering the survivors of the army and Martell was sent to command the Dornish troops. So all he has are second hand stories. If in the next books Barristant remembers deep conversations about love with Rhaegar, then we can improve the status of his opinion.

Seems presumptuous. Rhaegar and Barristan were both a part of the loyalist army at the Trident. It's pretty reasonable to assume they crossed paths at some point, at least.

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7 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Seems presumptuous. Rhaegar and Barristan were both a part of the loyalist army at the Trident. It's pretty reasonable to assume they crossed paths at some point, at least.

In the context of Aerys conversation with Rhaegar. That is why I mentioned hypothetical camp fire conversations that GRRM has not written about yet.

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