Bear Claw Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 On 9/7/2016 at 11:08 PM, Blue-Eyed Wolf said: I also think that normally cool and confident Petyr could completely lose it and attempt to assault Sansa if things could start falling apart is because his "memory" of taking Cat's virginity was such a core piece of his identity. He bragged about it to anyone that would listen at court. He may have had his obsession taken from him, his ass kicked and got tossed by to the Fingers, but it's clearly been his consolation for many years that at least "Cat" gave herself to him. He told Sansa about it very soon after "rescuing" her from KL. At Lysa's final scene she makes some suggestion in her ranting to Petyr that it was she, not Cat, that had sex with him. Of course, she also mentions the infamous tears, but the tears are sandwiched between two lines Lysa has about her giving Petyr her virginity and the fact that she was pregnant. It's then that Petyr pushes her out the moon door and gives his "Only Cat" line. I think this is pretty telling because Petyr is normally one to never get his hands dirty and usually prefers to kill by a proxy. She only made one vague statement about tears Sansa wouldn't have understood. I think what really made him push her and made his last words to her about Cat, is that Lysa challenged this really central idea in how he views himself. Taking Cat's virginity meant he was smarter and more cunning than the high lords he resented and he really stuck it to these great Houses that looked down on him as unworthy. To even suggest to the guy that thinks he's smarter than anyone out there that he was fooled or even self-deluded and by Lysa Tully at that... that's just enough to snap him and finally get his hands dirty. So is it in him to snap again and attempt to force himself on Sansa to re-do this pivotal moment he believed was real in his life? We already know he's more than pervy. He's got the very fragile ego and it's already been challenged. This (in bold) reminds me of Sansa's "memory" of Sandor's kiss. I never thought about it before, but she is exactly like Petyr in that regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 The as of yet 100% accurate predictions from the ghost of high heart predict Sansa still being a maid when she kills LF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Therae Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 @Blue-Eyed Wolf (so sorry, I have no idea how to tag you) - great points all (and obviously we are completely in agreement about Septa Mordane). My Sansa-blames-someone-else vibe is, admittedly, mainly pre-Purple Wedding (and I don't consider her culpable for that in any way whatsoever), and largely based on the occasions she is quick to throw Arya under the bus (Arya started it! re: the orange; Arya's the traitor, I'm good! re: Cersei getting her to write Rob and Cat about Ned; Arya is an unsatisfactory sister! re: hanging out with the Tyrells, and all the times she said Arya should have died instead of Lady, which is really, really awful), and that in all the time we spend in her head, she seems to spend a lot of time blaming people for things, and in the cases where that wasn't fair or accurate, she may eventually drop it and/or blame someone else, but she never seems to acknowledge that she was wrong. Mycah wasn't Sansa's fault, but Lady wasn't Arya's--and Arya spoke up immediately for Lady, while I don't think Sansa ever even felt sorry for Mycah, who was just as innocent. Actually, and I hope this is just that I'm at work and distracted by work being worky, as I feel reasonably certain that I have reasons for the never-taking-responsibility idea, I can't think of much opportunity for her to have been a responsible party (excepting her relationship with her sister, which they both had a hand in, and her bad judgment). Which is a different thing. (I realize this makes me sound sort of pro-Arya/anti-Sansa, which isn't really the case.) 18 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said: What she does have going for her though that LF does not have is that she has emotional intelligence. Petyr relies heavily on baser motivations people have like money, power, and sex. He doesn't always see what makes people tick on a deeper level. Connecting with people on a deeper level is also a very good way to bring allies to your side. She connected with the Hound and he protected her. She's got good relations with Mya Stone, Myranda Royce, Lothor Brune, and Robert Arryn just to start with and she's learned things about their most personal desires. Very good point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashes Of Westeros Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 2 hours ago, Therae said: and all the times she said Arya should have died instead of Lady Do you have any quotes? I do remember Sansa saying it was Nymeria who attacked Joffrey, not Lady. Actually Arya was the one who beat shit out of Joffrey, so she Mycah's death is partially her fault, though she was too small to realize it. It was quit satisfactory to see Joff beaten, but attacking a member of royal family is a crime punished by death. Arya being a daughter of Warden of the North grew up in a privilege and her father was the highest authority in the North. But on Trident it wasn't the case and she actually had to answer for what she did, no matter how morally right she was. Mycah being a common boy is aware of it and would rather stand some bulling and stay alive than messing a royal person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Therae Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 2 hours ago, Ashes Of Westeros said: Do you have any quotes? Quote "You have juice on your face, Your Grace," Arya said. It was running down her nose and stinging her eyes. Sansa wiped it away with a napkin. When she saw what the fruit in her lap had done to her beautiful ivory silk dress, she shrieked again. "You're horrible," she screamed at her sister. "They should have killed you instead of Lady!" GOT, Sansa III What punishment Arya may or may not have legally merited is not what I had in mind, rather the idea that Sansa should want her own sister dead, and continued to blame her for Lady's death even for a while after realizing that Joffrey and the Queen were who they were--especially given she actually had a moment where she basically decided to hate Arya for it: Quote When Prince Joffrey seated himself to her right, she felt her throat tighten. He had not spoken a word to her since the awful thing had happened, and she had not dared to speak to him. At first she thought she hated him for what they'd done to Lady, but after Sansa had wept her eyes dry, she told herself that it had not been Joffrey's doing, not truly. The queen had done it; she was the one to hate, her and Arya. Nothing bad would have happened except for Arya. GOT, Sansa II That last bit isn't exactly true, unless Sansa blames the whole thing on Arya practicing swordfighting with Mycah in a place where she and Joffrey happened to come upon on their ride. Nothing bad would have happened if Joffrey hadn't decided to hurt Mycah; Arya already had a pretty good sense of his nasty nature, and after Arya hit him, it certainly seems like he would have killed her had Nymeria not intervened: Quote Joffrey slashed at Arya with his sword, screaming obscenities, terrible words, filthy words. Arya darted back, frightened now, but Joffrey followed, hounding her toward the woods, backing her up against a tree. Sansa didn't know what to do. She watched helplessly, almost blind from her tears. Then a grey blur flashed past her, and suddenly Nymeria was there, leaping, jaws closing around Joffrey's sword arm. GOT, Sansa I Arya was eight and scrawny, Joffrey was twelve and taller than either Robb or Jon. But Sansa chose to hate her sister over this incident, to go on loving her beautiful Joffrey, and I don't think her feelings there were because of any Stannis-like adherence to justice. It's interesting to consider that if Lady had been along, she may very well have joined Nymeria in attacking Joffrey to protect her sister's Stark, and if Sandor had been along, he may very well have found some way to steer Joffrey away before he even tried to pick a fight with Mycah (whether with some sarcastic comment or by just straight-up scaring Mycah off). And my apologies, as this is probably getting pretty off-topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue-Eyed Wolf Posted September 14, 2016 Author Share Posted September 14, 2016 @Therae I think we can summarize Sansa in GoT as her mode of thinking and acting is heavily based around her world view of things should be like they are in the idealized world of the stories. All her chapters in GoT are about being confronted with the deconstruction of ideal chivalry when it collides with reality. All the Stark kids lived a very sheltered life and all were summer children in their own way. Sansa just takes it to a pretty extreme degree. I think her parents and septa went along with it because the stories do reinforce that "perfect" behavior intended to make girls okay with arranged marriages and having babies with men they may not actually want. Sansa just can't understand anything that doesn't fit into the story version of how things are supposed to be. It does make her behave in ways that are unbelievably naive and unkind to her sister. No, the Mycah incident was not her shining moment, but even her father explained to Arya that Sansa could not realistically go against her betrothed, the prince. She tried to be neutral, but Cersei was out for blood and pressed her by threatening Lady. The issue wasn't even about Arya's part since she fully confessed to striking Joffrey, but reasoned she was justified because Joff started it. So Sansa "blaming" Arya looks bad, but that's not new testimony as Arya already admitted her part. As for Mycah, Sansa didn't really know him (it is callous to a degree) and she certainly didn't know he was going to be killed. @Ashes Of Westeros, is right. Arya is slightly to blame in that it never occurred to her that beating a crown prince is probably not a smart decision, no matter how morally justified it was. Arya in her sheltered and privileged way, never considered how a commoner cannot cross class lines and get away with it like she can. To be fair, none of the Starks realized that Cersei and Joffrey would demand blood over a childish fight and wolf bite (that was pretty minor considering his arm could have been taken off). Sansa's sin is that she continued to have a steadfast belief that things would work out like the stories despite this warning sign. To also be fair, her father didn't end the engagement either at this point despite the warning signs of the kind of people he was going to give his daughter to. GRRM is very careful to spread responsibility around to not have any character be labeled solidly "good" or "bad," but also ultimately showing the adults in this situation are really failing the children. This is a very emotional incident for Arya and Sansa and things were said that were unkind out of misplaced anger. She doesn't actually want her sister dead. Sansa later tells the Tyrells that Joffrey lied about the butcher boy, which may be too late, but it does show she thinks about the incident and Joffrey was responsible for it. As for the letter, that was clearly coercion and her mother rightly called it so when they received it. This isn't directed at you, but what should be obvious is that the Sansa after her father's death is a very changed person. She pleaded for her father's life using her last scrap of faith in the queen and Joffrey and was betrayed. Her previous idealism has almost been completely obliterated. I say almost because she is not 100% cynical. She's not nihilistic like the Hound. She does stand up for Dontos even if it could mean a beating. She is kind to Tommen when Joffrey is callous and mean to his brother. She affirms over and over her Stark loyalties in her head, even when she has to play the obedient subject. And she's capable of compassion to Lancel Lannister despite her vow to never trust a Lannister again. She avoids being deliberately cruel to Tyrion even while resisting a forced marriage. She never gives in mentally, no matter what she shows on the outside. So I never understand any accusation against her of being too "passive" or "Stockholm Syndrome," especially when you consider Theon really becoming the Reek persona by comparison. She is very mentally strong as is Arya. The little girl that would get upset over an orange staining her dress one book later embraces the bloodied, rough wool cloak and keeps it with her summer silks. Her true self is so much kinder and more intelligent than we can see when was trying so hard to be the perfect lady. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue-Eyed Wolf Posted September 14, 2016 Author Share Posted September 14, 2016 On 9/12/2016 at 11:17 PM, Bear Claw said: This (in bold) reminds me of Sansa's "memory" of Sandor's kiss. I never thought about it before, but she is exactly like Petyr in that regard. Well not exactly... Petyr was drunk and genuinely mistaken, but he ran with it until it became a core belief about his identity. Sansa's is more her subconscious desires coming to surface as she is in the process of transitioning to womanhood. Also Sandor re-writes this bit of history albeit consciously when he tells Arya that he saved Sansa and she gave him a song, but that's really about his guilt. Different reasons, but everyone focuses on the unkiss as proof that whatever Sansa thinks can't be reliable, even though she remembers every other detail quite accurately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear Claw Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 14 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said: Well not exactly... Petyr was drunk and genuinely mistaken, but he ran with it until it became a core belief about his identity. Sansa's is more her subconscious desires coming to surface as she is in the process of transitioning to womanhood. Also Sandor re-writes this bit of history albeit consciously when he tells Arya that he saved Sansa and she gave him a song, but that's really about his guilt. Different reasons, but everyone focuses on the unkiss as proof that whatever Sansa thinks can't be reliable, even though she remembers every other detail quite accurately. Yes, I wonder where it will lead to (this false memory). Also, I don't think she mentions this unkiss to anyone like Petyr keeps bragging about his conquest of Cat. However, Petyr does seem to be very proud of his time with Cat. As someone said in this thread, he seems to think it makes him look really smart or better than others. Sansa mentions the unkiss (to herself) in the same manner. I think she is putting the other girls (Tyrell girls) down thinking how she has this kiss experience that they haven't had. I get the same kind of vibe of bragging. Anyway, I think this passage (Titan of Bravos ) you mention could predict a sexual assualt . I always thought her experience in Kingslanding after her father was executed and she was dreaming/imagining someone coming up the tower (leather on stone ) and entering her room with ice as she hid naked as a foreshadowing of this potential assault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue-Eyed Wolf Posted September 14, 2016 Author Share Posted September 14, 2016 2 hours ago, Bear Claw said: Yes, I wonder where it will lead to (this false memory). Also, I don't think she mentions this unkiss to anyone like Petyr keeps bragging about his conquest of Cat. However, Petyr does seem to be very proud of his time with Cat. As someone said in this thread, he seems to think it makes him look really smart or better than others. Sansa mentions the unkiss (to herself) in the same manner. I think she is putting the other girls (Tyrell girls) down thinking how she has this kiss experience that they haven't had. I get the same kind of vibe of bragging. Anyway, I think this passage (Titan of Bravos ) you mention could predict a sexual assualt . I always thought her experience in Kingslanding after her father was executed and she was dreaming/imagining someone coming up the tower (leather on stone ) and entering her room with ice as she hid naked as a foreshadowing of this potential assault However it finally comes out, we are promised by George it will mean something (significant, I'm sure). She doesn't confide in anyone about her interactions or thoughts on the Hound. In that way, she does respect their intimacy since she was privy to his deepest secret. She won't even bring up Gregor as a comeback when he's being particularly mean because it would be a low blow. I think she does have a little pride in her "experience" as he's such a universally feared guy and this is a brush with a bad boy. This is a very adult "kiss." It's not out of the stories and it's not chaste. Since she has no outside frame of reference for it, it's purely from her. She was attracted to his ferocity, but she wasn't ready for it. It probably is a bit of a self-satisfied brag that makes her feel more womanly, which I don't begrudge her considering it's one of the few non-traumatic "memories" she has of KL. I'm sure she does completely relate to the other girls though. The unkiss is quite genius in that it shows Sansa's feelings were mutual without the problems that would come with something actually happening. She can process her feelings at her own pace. Bolded: I hadn't remembered this. Good catch. I'll have to go back and look for it. I do have to say I think it will be an attempted assault or a non-penetrative assault as she's still called a "maid" at the time of the slaying and her maidenhead is still very important as a bargaining chip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashes Of Westeros Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 8 hours ago, Therae said: "You're horrible," she screamed at her sister. "They should have killed you instead of Lady!" Yeah, not the brightest moment for Sansa. But I don't think she really wanted Arya to be killed. Sansa just overreacted in her way. It's like saying "drop dead!", it doesn't mean you really want this person to die. 5 hours ago, Bear Claw said: I always thought her experience in Kingslanding after her father was executed and she was dreaming/imagining someone coming up the tower (leather on stone ) and entering her room with ice as she hid naked as a foreshadowing of this potential assault. Good catch! I checked for the quote: Quote There was no place to run, no place to hide, no way to bar the door. Finally the footsteps stopped and she knew he was just outside, standing there silent with his dead eyes and his long pocked face. That was when she realized she was naked. She crouched down, trying to cover herself with her hands, as her door began to swing open, creaking, the point of the greatsword poking through . . . AGOT Sansa V It has been discussed in many threads that a sword/ a dagger is a phallic symbol in ASOIAF (Jaime/Brienne, Jon/Ygrytte, Sansa/Sandor) it really sounds like foreshadowing. There was another dream Sansa dreamt the night before her flowering. I can't find a quote, but here's the summury: Spoiler That night, Sansa has a dream where she is surrounded by a mob, and calls out to all the great knights, but none respond to her call. As we know, during the real bread riot the Hound saved Sansa from rape and possible death. Could it be foreshadowing that next time noone would be there to save her. But maybe I'm overthinking it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 First of all, I think the imagery in a POV pertains especially to the arc of the POV. While there are criss cross references between Arya and Sansa, such as Jaime opinioning that Sansa would do better to stay in hiding and marry a cook or smith instead (paraphrasing) or RL villagers warning Sandor that the Mountain Clans would murder him and steal his daughter, the desciptive passages often concern the POV character, at least for the main POV characters. If George intended to fully foreshadow Sansa's fate in the way Arya arrives at Braavos, he'd have foreshadowing of Arya's fate in Sansa's chapters arriving at Gulltown. You might want to check for that in aSoS. We do have Sansa being accused of assassinating Joffrey, and she did assist with poison, while Arya enters the HoBaW to train as an assassin. Arya recites her list in this chapter and reminds herself that Joffrey is dead now. On 4-9-2016 at 4:16 AM, Blue-Eyed Wolf said: The description of the ship fits very well with representing Sansa. Arya is standing on the prow of the ship that is adorned with a maiden bearing a bowl of fruit and purple sails. Sansa is often referred to as a maiden both literally and in prophecy. The fruit she bears is her claim to Winterfell. It works for Sansa, but Arya as well. Arya is the "maiden of the tree" (and fruit comes from trees). She likes throwing apples at people's heads, nor minds eating fruit with a worm in it (and Arya eats a worm at the end of the first chapter of aFfC). While it's true you can regard Sansa as having a claim to Winterfell, and symbolize it as a bowl of fruit, I think the above assertion in an Arya chapter requires some more evidence. What you do have is that the ship is called the "Titan's daughter" (Alayne is the daughter of a man whose family sigil is the Titan) and the purple sails. I can see that as a link to the Purple amethysts and Purple wedding. But then Arya also wore a purple dress with pearl beads at Acorn Hall (after she ruined the acorn dress). Arya rests her hand on the gilded figure of the prow and pretends it is "her" home she's sailing towards. For me the context of Arya resting and touching the maiden figure and thinking of her arrival home implies we first must regard the maiden with the bowl of fruit as a symbol of Arya herself. At least it suggests that Arya is entering a phase in Braavos where she will become far more comfortable with girly stuff, things she usually identifies as what Sansa is good at and known for. She's entering the phase of becoming a teen. It's not Arya's focus or aim, but we do see she starts to wear dresses more, be a girl thought of as pretty and likable. And an Arya stand-in, Jeyne Poole, is of course wedded and raped for the claim of Winterfell. Now I do think there are parallel references to Sansa's arrival at Gulttown: you have the ship's name "Titan's Daughters", the purple sails, and the seabirds crying (Gulls?). The Titan is described as a "giant", and as tall as a "mountain", and then described as standing on the crests of mountains. Don't lose sight of the real giant in the Vale, the mountain the Eyrie is built on (and it's called the Giant's Lance). His "rocky" limbs of "solid stone" grinding and groaning to smash his enemies sounds more like a physical earthquake event than LF. Certainly with the shadow "falling" over them. The legs are like a pass, with murder holes and arrow slits, like the Bloody Gate. Old Nan's story says how the Titan wades into the sea to smash his enemies, the sea that the Titan's Daughter "cleaves", the sea the color of the eyes of LF. This sounds like both the mountainous titan and the daughter defeat LF. (see Sansa and the Giants in my sig) It is regularly repeated that the eyes are of fire and that he wears bronze (turned green) and has green hair: these are First Men, greenseer allusions imo who use fire magic. LF is neither of those. The Mountain Clans of the Vale and Bronze Jon Royce though have First Men connotations. The Burned Men (clan of Timett) are fire related. While the Titan is said to like to feed on the juicy pink flesh of little highborn girls, and LF certainly is a perv, I don't actually see any confirmation in these arrival scenes of LF assaulting Sansa, only the threat and desire for it. Good find on the thigh injury, while Arya is holding on to Needle. Have you read the Mercy chapter of Arya for tWoW yet? What does Arya pretend to do and how does she kill her intended victim who likes to rape little girls? I think these passages should be taken as foreshadowing for both Arya and Sansa, as there are "two stars" for "home". Broaden the scope imo, especially with the interpretation of the Titan/Giant. LF is not the sole Giant. There are several giant related figures or features in the Vale. Only LF is the one that gets slain though. There is layered symbolism for both Ayra and Sansa in these paragraphs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 On 9/3/2016 at 10:16 PM, Blue-Eyed Wolf said: From AFFC, Chapter 6, Arya I, the chapter opens with Arya coming into the port of Braavos aboard the Titan's Daughter. Several pages cover the approach and passage into the city under the Titan of Braavos with all Arya's internal monologue in between. Tying into the GoHH prophecy that many theorize (as I agree with) that the giant the maid will slay in the castle made of snow is indeed Littlefinger for his original house sigil was the Titan of Braavos's head, Arya thinks of the statue: ... So what do you guys think? The Titan's Daughter continues on to the "Arsenal of Braavos" with it's "stony battlements bristling with scorpions, spitfires, trebuchets" and where "they can build a war galley there in a day." I haven't really evaluated this part closely in context, so I'll leave it there for now. I have read your main post a few times and it is tempting to say it's foreshadowing for Sansa, but (you knew there was a but) with all due respect to clue digging and theory crafting, I see a double layer meaning here myself. To me, it shows the relationship between Arya and Sansa is a parallel journey, both are Titan's daughter's in some way, but we won't know the outcome or how much is actual foreshadowing until we get more book info. Kinda like Jon and Dany are heavily paralleled with situations and character figures, yet they handle each situation/person a little differently which is shaping them as individuals with their own style. Have you read the Mercy/Winds chapter? Here is a link to it just in case anyone has not had the chance to read it yet. If you read that and then look back on what you arranged here, you may find that much of this may be foreshadowing to a future Arya. Either way, you have made me more aware of what is going on with Sansa in the next books. https://www.quora.com/profile/Mukund-Madhav/The-Winds-of-Winter/MERCY-The-Winds-of-Winter-Sample-Chapter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 4 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said: I have read your main post a few times and it is tempting to say it's foreshadowing for Sansa, but (you knew there was a but) with all due respect to clue digging and theory crafting, I see a double layer meaning here myself. To me, it shows the relationship between Arya and Sansa is a parallel journey, both are Titan's daughter's in some way, but we won't know the outcome or how much is actual foreshadowing until we get more book info. Kinda like Jon and Dany are heavily paralleled with situations and character figures, yet they handle each situation/person a little differently which is shaping them as individuals with their own style. Have you read the Mercy/Winds chapter? Here is a link to it just in case anyone has not had the chance to read it yet. If you read that and then look back on what you arranged here, you may find that much of this may be foreshadowing to a future Arya. Either way, it will make me more aware of what is going on with Sansa in the next books. https://www.quora.com/profile/Mukund-Madhav/The-Winds-of-Winter/MERCY-The-Winds-of-Winter-Sample-Chapter I would say there might be references in there too for Dany, who wants to plant fruit trees and a claim, has purple eyes, and comes from a father who was king of all Westeros and liked the flesh of highborn girls. Her story is about "going home" too eventually, ships, and the shadow of Asshai. Spoiler We definitely see an interpretation of the legs of the Titan and wounding with a knife or sword that is posited in the OP as coming about in Arya's arc (the Mercy chapter). She kills Raff by opening his thigh artery when she pretended she would give him oral satisfaction. The Mercy chapter also involves the rape topic for Arya in a play, with Tyrion (a Giant) supposedly raping Arya playing a servant girl and being wedded to Sansa. The chapter is full or rape references but there is no rape. With Brienne the threat is there too at some point, but does not happen. I think it won't be different for Sansa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isobel Harper Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 OP: "For a moment it seemed as though they must surely smash up against the stones beneath his legs. ... And then they were past." This hints that Sansa manages to "escape" unharmed, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue-Eyed Wolf Posted September 17, 2016 Author Share Posted September 17, 2016 @sweetsunray and @The Fattest Leech Always good to see analysis from you both! Thank you for your input. On 9/14/2016 at 7:54 AM, sweetsunray said: If George intended to fully foreshadow Sansa's fate in the way Arya arrives at Braavos, he'd have foreshadowing of Arya's fate in Sansa's chapters arriving at Gulltown. You might want to check for that in aSoS I took your advice here and went back. There's no mention of Sansa arriving at Gulltown that I could find. Of course, Alayne is supposed to be from Gulltown. She was raised in the faith of the seven after the death of her "mother" a Braavosi gentlewoman, but decided not to become a septa after her flowering. The ship Sansa is on that takes her first to Petyr's family home on the Fingers is the Merling King, a Braavosi trading vessel. The Merling King definitely has connections to the House of Black and White. There is a statue of him there for worship as an aspect of the Many Faced God. Merlings are said to serve in the halls of the Drowned God according to the ironborn. So there's definitely a ship connection with Arya's destination and an association with death worship. From the Fingers, the ship will be sailing for Braavos. Also there's a slight parallel in Alayne's backstory for spending time in a religious order until the time of her flowering, then she decides to reveal herself to her remaining family or in this case her "father." The journey of the Merling King does experience violent waves and winds, so violent that 3 men die: two washed overboard and one falls from the mast and breaks his neck. If we look at how that relates to Sansa first, she'll witness 2 deaths in the coming chapters. Lysa will fall to her death, and Marillion will be swept up for his involvement and knowing too much. You could argue the third had already happened in Dontos, as he had to be killed and tossed overboard for knowing too much as well, but that's not really a foreshadowing since it already happened. There could be a third death yet to come of someone who got swept up in LF's scheme. Since Arya has started her training to become an assassin she's killed 3 men so far: her first assignment from the kindly man, an insurance scam artist (not personal), the deserter from the night's watch (slightly personal), Dareon (also a singer like Marillion), and the third... Spoiler Raff the Sweetling, which is distinct as the most personal to Arya of the three. While Arya on the Titan's Daughter is positioned at the prow with the Maiden, Sansa spends most of her time on the Merling King confined to her cabin and horribly sick. Not only seasickness, but sick with the trauma she has witnessed and is now irrevocably tied to. While Sansa grows more and more distraught and depressed with the layers of lies and murder surrounding her, Arya is learning to become comfortable with it. I would even say nourished by it (kissing the skull face of the kindly man and attempting to eat his worm). She was hungry, "but not for food." Sansa is so sick she thinks she'll vomit, until she starts partaking of the wine from the Merling King -- presumably Arbor Gold with it's description of it tasting of "oak and fruit and hot summer nights, the flavors blossoming in her mouth like flowers opening to the sun." On 9/14/2016 at 7:54 AM, sweetsunray said: While it's true you can regard Sansa as having a claim to Winterfell, and symbolize it as a bowl of fruit, I think the above assertion in an Arya chapter requires some more evidence You are right, I probably should not have worded as gospel truth like that, because the fruit symbolism goes much broader than that and it does definitely relate to Arya too. There is heavy fruit symbolism in Sansa's chapter, which follows the drinking of the wine to make what follows palatable. The fruit also comes from the Merling King (as a death god symbol). Ja'qen's display of his faceless man's abilities are the seduction that Arya needs, a promise to get the revenge she desires, not knowing she will be used and manipulated by the order into giving up her Stark identity. There are apples, pears, pomegranates, grapes, and a blood orange. There's already been much analysis made of the pomegranate Petyr offers her, which Sansa doesn't accept, as a symbol of Hades offering Persephone the pomegranate seeds that would bind her to the underworld and to him. Sansa choses a pear for herself, but also will taste some of the juice from the blood orange Petyr gives her. It does feel like a call back to the blood orange Arya threw at Sansa that stained her dress (a gift from Cersei), indicating the stain of blood and death is on her and she will taste it again with Petyr. And I agree with you about the coming of age and transitioning to womanhood for Arya. It should also be noted that Sansa initially wanted to take her mother's name for her disguise, but Petyr changed it to Alayne (his mother). Arya does take her mother's name for a time as Cat of the Canals. Both sisters wanted to go somewhere else, Sansa to White Harbor and Arya to the Wall. When they learn their true destinations, the Eyrie and Braavos, they both make mental adjustments to accommodate relating it to people they know. Sansa relates the Eyrie to her aunt and Arya to Syrio and Ja'qen. Of course Sansa's stop at the Fingers is also the first mention of Petyr being tied to the Titan. Even the tower of Petyr's home has some similarities to the Titan with it's position on a rocky piece of land and it's arrow slits. In the hall, we hanging a broken longsword and the shield with the stone head of the Titan with the fiery eyes. Since you mentioned: On 9/14/2016 at 7:54 AM, sweetsunray said: It is regularly repeated that the eyes are of fire and that he wears bronze (turned green) and has green hair: these are First Men, greenseer allusions imo who use fire magic. LF is neither of those. The Mountain Clans of the Vale and Bronze Jon Royce though have First Men connotations. The Burned Men (clan of Timett) are fire related. This gave me much food for thought. I did read your essays and it was quite enjoyable reading. Since you mentioned the green hair / First Men connection, I should mention from the House Manderly sigil the merman also has green hair. Not saying there's a connection with the Manderly's necessarily, just that the Merling King (the god) might have a nod to the First Men as well on a deeper level. I too was wondering at what point those Mountain Clans are going to show up again and there's definitely a connection with Bronze Yohn and his breastplate of ancient runes. So, if I'm gathering everything right from your essays the Titan applies as a symbol to multiple people and things: LF, SR, Gregor Clegane, and the Giant's Lance. Getting to the Giant's Lance looming over everything, one cannot help but notice it's phallic symbolism, especially when you consider the castle at the base is called the Gates of the Moon that seems like a more feminine symbol. There's a lot of positive character development to come from this even though the intrigues and ominous aspects are still present. I don't want to get too much into TWOW territory here (okay, I do) but: Spoiler There's a huge change in Sansa's tone in the sample chapter we haven't really seen before and it's directly related to moving away from the Eyrie to the Gates of the Moon. She leaves isolation and depression behind and is renewed by sounds of people and life as she moves to the Gates. I actually have a very positive view of her friendship with Myranda Royce, who I actually don't believe is out to betray her. When Petyr told Sansa to be careful around Myranda, I instantly wanted these girls to be friends just because Petyr fears her shrewdness. He fears Sansa making ties to anyone outside of his control. I believe Myranda has given her confidence and a different model of womanhood that owns her sexuality. While I think Myranda harbors some hurt over the broken negotiation for Harry, I think she has seen that Sansa (and she does certainly seem to know the truth of that) is kind to SR and Sansa has been sympathetic to her situation with her deceased husband. Myranda's beef is not with Sansa. It's with Lady Waynwood who was bought and rejected Myranda on Harry's behalf, Littlefinger, and her own father, Nestor Royce, who she suspects will try to marry her off again to a repugnant suitor. Sansa "rescues" her from unwanted male attention and tells her her husband dying wasn't her fault even though her father blames her. I'm not even convinced Myranda has any real love for Harry, but I would agree they'd probably make a good match at least in the bedroom. Consider the scene where they run together and Sansa has the memory of running around Winterfell with Arya and Jeyne Poole. Myranda's cloak (repeatedly used as a symbol of marriage) flies off as they run in un-ladylike fashion in favor of female friendship. I feel Myranda is getting as much support from this friendship as Sansa is. It would just be very problematic for GRRM to give Sansa what rare female interaction she has that ends with them at odds over a male again. I guess I have some confidence he has evolved as a writer beyond that. We see the Giant's Lance in this chapter twice, both as the literal mountain and phallic symbol and again in the cake. It's a replica of of the Lance made out of lemon cake. Petyr bought up every lemon in the Vale to have it made. There's no reason he should go to such great lengths unless it is purely to please Sansa. So although Petyr seems so totally in control over everything and her, this gesture is actually very pathetic in it's neediness for her to affirm his manhood (the broken sword). So who is really in control here? Sansa has good instincts but she's been gaslighted for so long, she doesn't trust them. I think that is changing with the confidence female friendship has given her, bringing the Giant's Lance down to size and in sad, desperate cake form to try to make it more palatable. This chapter has a running theme of women being manipulated and used by men. It's starts with Mya Stone with straw in her hair (tumble in the hay) and upset. She knew Mychel Redfort, who was recently married to Ysilla Royce, was near. Mya was really in love and wanted to marry him, but as a bastard she's only good enough for a roll in the hay as a mistress. Alayne doesn't want to hurt Robert's feelings, but he repeatedly insists they will be married, so she is gentle but firm in explaining she is a bastard and can't. Of course the real reason is that Sansa just has no desire to marry Robert, but she only gets stern with him when he suggests he could be his mistress. I've heard people say this is mean, but it isn't. She's setting clear boundaries that she won't be disrespected or dishonored by him, just because he's the Lord of the Eyrie doesn't mean he can treat people like that. IMO, that's some damn good parenting to a kid that has been seriously lacking in boundaries. That's actually a very good sign that Sansa has no intention of being exploited through this betrothal. Then further in the chapter you have Myranda Royce who was rejected from a marriage she would have liked and is threatened yet again with unwanted suitors and a father that doesn't care about her preferences. Now you have Alayne faced with a possible betrothal to an arrogant asshole and a "father" who just wants her to get over it and exploit herself. This is where I really think Sansa is starting to run her own game while appearing to go along with Petyr.... 1. She makes a prayer to the Maiden. The Maiden rules innocence and virtue. The Mother rules marriage and childbirth. There is no love/sex goddess in the Seven, so that's a strange prayer to make for someone who is really hoping for marriage. 2. Petyr said no one loves SR, everyone will love Harry, and all the Vale will unite behind her cause. Well the first two are definitely false. People do care about SR like Bronze Yohn, if only because his father was so loved and respected. No one in the chapter has any nice opinions about Harry. They all seem to think he's an arrogant, unjumped squire and they aren't wrong. In Sansa's analysis of the knights she's seen, very few are experienced battle-hardened men. This generation of knights seem mostly like "knights of summer" as her mother would say. The Lords Declarent couldn't even unite behind an Arryn, why should she place all her hopes on them through this marriage? Basically, all Petyr promised sounds like mostly bullshit. 2. Petyr told her to flirt, pique his pride, and play up being the delicate flower in need of fresh air to be alone with him. She doesn't do any of those things. In fact, she kinda makes him look stupid and flustered. She does give him a test of his honesty and while he is truthful, he reveals himself to be even more of a douchebag. 3. That last cheesy line about being "all the spice he will need"... that sounded like pure imitation of some bawdy jape she heard from Myranda mixed with Cersei's style. As I said, I don't think she actually wants to marry Harry, I think she just wants to get him invested so he'll be properly humiliated. Remember, she's going to give her favor to someone else as per LF's instructions, but she also hopes Harry's horse falters and he lands on his head. My thinking is she's going to give her favor to someone that can knock him on his ass and humiliate him, which might turn him off to this betrothal all the while making it look like Sansa was doing everything Petyr told her to do. She not at the point of throwing Petyr under the bus, the girl just doesn't want another arranged marriage and she hates the Eyrie. I do believe though the Vale arc will end with Sansa escaping it one way or another with her virginity intact. If there is an attack on her, it will be averted. Her arc is definitely of one moving toward agency and choice and I don't see her choosing anyone in the Vale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted September 17, 2016 Share Posted September 17, 2016 27 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said: @sweetsunray and @The Fattest Leech Always good to see analysis from you both! Thank you for your input. You are more than welcome, but @sweetsunray is the smart one. I am the kamikaze launched from a slingshot 27 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said: I took your advice here and went back. Always the advantage of discussion rather than argument. 27 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said: There's no mention of Sansa arriving at Gulltown that I could find. Of course, Alayne is supposed to be from Gulltown. She was raised in the faith of the seven after the death of her "mother" a Braavosi gentlewoman, but decided not to become a septa after her flowering. Kinda like Sansa in general, wouldn't you say? Sansa was always more obsessed with the righteous and holy of the seven and proper knighthood until reality set in. I didn't realize Sansa was so "deep until after a few re-reads and discussions about her. Just about the time Cat dies in the story is when we see Sansa really develop. She was building up to it, bit she starts to peel off onto her own after Cat dies, which is her link to the Whent's and Harrenhall and flight (in my opinion). Sansa is a moon-maiden, and what loves the moon? Bats (and me)! Sansa is linked to flight by bats and Bran and Dany both describe the dragons as giant bats. Flight, flight and flight. Sansa will fly as Sweetrobin is obsessed with flying... as opposed to his fear of falling. 27 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said: The ship Sansa is on that takes her first to Petyr's family home on the Fingers is the Merling King, a Braavosi trading vessel. The Merling King definitely has connections to the House of Black and White. There is a statue of him there for worship as an aspect of the Many Faced God. Merlings are said to serve in the halls of the Drowned God according to the ironborn. So there's definitely a ship connection with Arya's destination and an association with death worship. From the Fingers, the ship will be sailing for Braavos. Also there's a slight parallel in Alayne's backstory for spending time in a religious order until the time of her flowering, then she decides to reveal herself to her remaining family or in this case her "father." I agree, this also happens in the Arya's chapters up to and including Mercy and beyond. Sansa and Arya are sister's despite what others may think. Ships and sailing is a very common theme among all of the Stark children whether it is figurative or literal. They are all part of a journey. 27 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said: The journey of the Merling King does experience violent waves and winds, so violent that 3 men die: two washed overboard and one falls from the mast and breaks his neck. If we look at how that relates to Sansa first, she'll witness 2 deaths in the coming chapters. Lysa will fall to her death, and Marillion will be swept up for his involvement and knowing too much. You could argue the third had already happened in Dontos, as he had to be killed and tossed overboard for knowing too much as well, but that's not really a foreshadowing since it already happened. If I remember correctly, the Ghost of HH also predicts things that have already happened, so predictions that encompass past, present and future events may still be within GRRM standards. I hold a 1% chance the Marillion is still alive and will make it out of the Eyrie and pop up faster than Sansa's lost shoe to help rat LF out and expose Sansa... which could make Harry the Hair like her more because he currently seems "bored" with Sansa. 27 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said: There could be a third death yet to come of someone who got swept up in LF's scheme. Since Arya has started her training to become an assassin she's killed 3 men so far: her first assignment from the kindly man, an insurance scam artist (not personal), the deserter from the night's watch (slightly personal), Dareon (also a singer like Marillion), and the third... I take the singer from the NW more serious because of possible foreshadowing. I often think through Arya's prayer list. Most of Arya's prayer list has been completed for her. Could be because she is an image of the valkyrie who chose the slain? 27 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said: Hide contents Raff the Sweetling, which is distinct as the most personal to Arya of the three. While Arya on the Titan's Daughter is positioned at the prow with the Maiden, Sansa spends most of her time on the Merling King confined to her cabin and horribly sick. If I had to pick symbolism here, this would be it. One is exposing her inner self, holding proud and not forgetting, one is trying to convince herself that she is different (at the moment). But Sansa is learning in the moment. She is learning what to do and what not to do in order to be able to rule later. I think "Winds of Winter" is when Sansa will shine because she has been learning the "magic" of words, and words are winds and magic words are of House Whent and Lothston (her heritage). Dany and Jon did not hit their "dragon puberty" at the same time. I would expect the Stark kids to also have staggered hidden talent dates. A Feast for Crows - Sansa I "Yes, Father." Her voice sounded thin and strained. A liar's voice, she thought as she hurried up the steps and across the gallery to the Moon Tower. A guilty voice. 27 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said: Not only seasickness, but sick with the trauma she has witnessed and is now irrevocably tied to. While Sansa grows more and more distraught and depressed with the layers of lies and murder surrounding her, Arya is learning to become comfortable with it. I would even say nourished by it (kissing the skull face of the kindly man and attempting to eat his worm). To me, this is Arya accepting death as part of her Valkyrie identity. I could be wrong, but she is given a task that apparently many have shied away from... eating the worm and worms crawl through dead apples and apples are important in the story. Arya is showing strength in her role. 27 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said: Sansa is so sick she thinks she'll vomit, until she starts partaking of the wine from the Merling King -- presumably Arbor Gold with it's description of it tasting of "oak and fruit and hot summer nights, the flavors blossoming in her mouth like flowers opening to the sun." Sansa and Arya are two different girls gaining different knowledge based on their own futures. I don't think one is more dominant than the other. This will actually be a bonus to them as they grow into adults and possible leaders of their own lands. 27 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said: This gave me much food for thought. I did read your essays and it was quite enjoyable reading. See. She is the smart one. 27 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said: Reveal hidden contents There's a huge change in Sansa's tone in the sample chapter we haven't really seen before and it's directly related to moving away from the Eyrie to the Gates of the Moon. She leaves isolation and depression behind and is renewed by sounds of people and life as she moves to the Gates. I actually have a very positive view of her friendship with Myranda Royce, who I actually don't believe is out to betray her. When Petyr told Sansa to be careful around Myranda, I instantly wanted these girls to be friends just because Petyr fears her shrewdness. He fears Sansa making ties to anyone outside of his control. I believe Myranda has given her confidence and a different model of womanhood that owns her sexuality. While I think Myranda harbors some hurt over the broken negotiation for Harry, I think she has seen that Sansa (and she does certainly seem to know the truth of that) is kind to SR and Sansa has been sympathetic to her situation with her deceased husband. Myranda's beef is not with Sansa. It's with Lady Waynwood who was bought and rejected Myranda on Harry's behalf, Littlefinger, and her own father, Nestor Royce, who she suspects will try to marry her off again to a repugnant suitor. Sansa "rescues" her from unwanted male attention and tells her her husband dying wasn't her fault even though her father blames her. I'm not even convinced Myranda has any real love for Harry, but I would agree they'd probably make a good match at least in the bedroom. Consider the scene where they run together and Sansa has the memory of running around Winterfell with Arya and Jeyne Poole. Myranda's cloak (repeatedly used as a symbol of marriage) flies off as they run in un-ladylike fashion in favor of female friendship. I feel Myranda is getting as much support from this friendship as Sansa is. It would just be very problematic for GRRM to give Sansa what rare female interaction she has that ends with them at odds over a male again. I guess I have some confidence he has evolved as a writer beyond that. We see the Giant's Lance in this chapter twice, both as the literal mountain and phallic symbol and again in the cake. It's a replica of of the Lance made out of lemon cake. Petyr bought up every lemon in the Vale to have it made. There's no reason he should go to such great lengths unless it is purely to please Sansa. So although Petyr seems so totally in control over everything and her, this gesture is actually very pathetic in it's neediness for her to affirm his manhood (the broken sword). So who is really in control here? Sansa has good instincts but she's been gaslighted for so long, she doesn't trust them. I think that is changing with the confidence female friendship has given her, bringing the Giant's Lance down to size and in sad, desperate cake form to try to make it more palatable. This chapter has a running theme of women being manipulated and used by men. It's starts with Mya Stone with straw in her hair (tumble in the hay) and upset. She knew Mychel Redfort, who was recently married to Ysilla Royce, was near. Mya was really in love and wanted to marry him, but as a bastard she's only good enough for a roll in the hay as a mistress. Alayne doesn't want to hurt Robert's feelings, but he repeatedly insists they will be married, so she is gentle but firm in explaining she is a bastard and can't. Of course the real reason is that Sansa just has no desire to marry Robert, but she only gets stern with him when he suggests he could be his mistress. I've heard people say this is mean, but it isn't. She's setting clear boundaries that she won't be disrespected or dishonored by him, just because he's the Lord of the Eyrie doesn't mean he can treat people like that. IMO, that's some damn good parenting to a kid that has been seriously lacking in boundaries. That's actually a very good sign that Sansa has no intention of being exploited through this betrothal. Then further in the chapter you have Myranda Royce who was rejected from a marriage she would have liked and is threatened yet again with unwanted suitors and a father that doesn't care about her preferences. Now you have Alayne faced with a possible betrothal to an arrogant asshole and a "father" who just wants her to get over it and exploit herself. This is where I really think Sansa is starting to run her own game while appearing to go along with Petyr.... 1. She makes a prayer to the Maiden. The Maiden rules innocence and virtue. The Mother rules marriage and childbirth. There is no love/sex goddess in the Seven, so that's a strange prayer to make for someone who is really hoping for marriage. 2. Petyr said no one loves SR, everyone will love Harry, and all the Vale will unite behind her cause. Well the first two are definitely false. People do care about SR like Bronze Yohn, if only because his father was so loved and respected. No one in the chapter has any nice opinions about Harry. They all seem to think he's an arrogant, unjumped squire and they aren't wrong. In Sansa's analysis of the knights she's seen, very few are experienced battle-hardened men. This generation of knights seem mostly like "knights of summer" as her mother would say. The Lords Declarent couldn't even unite behind an Arryn, why should she place all her hopes on them through this marriage? Basically, all Petyr promised sounds like mostly bullshit. 2. Petyr told her to flirt, pique his pride, and play up being the delicate flower in need of fresh air to be alone with him. She doesn't do any of those things. In fact, she kinda makes him look stupid and flustered. She does give him a test of his honesty and while he is truthful, he reveals himself to be even more of a douchebag. 3. That last cheesy line about being "all the spice he will need"... that sounded like pure imitation of some bawdy jape she heard from Myranda mixed with Cersei's style. As I said, I don't think she actually wants to marry Harry, I think she just wants to get him invested so he'll be properly humiliated. Remember, she's going to give her favor to someone else as per LF's instructions, but she also hopes Harry's horse falters and he lands on his head. My thinking is she's going to give her favor to someone that can knock him on his ass and humiliate him, which might turn him off to this betrothal all the while making it look like Sansa was doing everything Petyr told her to do. She not at the point of throwing Petyr under the bus, the girl just doesn't want another arranged marriage and she hates the Eyrie. AND the quote system just went down on me????? I can't finish???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue-Eyed Wolf Posted September 17, 2016 Author Share Posted September 17, 2016 2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said: Kinda like Sansa in general, wouldn't you say? Sansa was always more obsessed with the righteous and holy of the seven and proper knighthood until reality set in. I didn't realize Sansa was so "deep until after a few re-reads and discussions about her. Just about the time Cat dies in the story is when we see Sansa really develop. She was building up to it, bit she starts to peel off onto her own after Cat dies, which is her link to the Whent's and Harrenhall and flight (in my opinion). Sansa is a moon-maiden, and what loves the moon? Bats (and me)! Sansa is linked to flight by bats and Bran and Dany both describe the dragons as giant bats. Flight, flight and flight. Sansa will fly as Sweetrobin is obsessed with flying... as opposed to his fear of falling. I would agree the RW marks somewhat of the end of the deconstruction phase for her and for Arya. Ironically, it's being stripped down and both sisters entering a reconstruction phase under a new identity to give them the freedom to become women they want to be, despite the fact that identity of "bastard" or "no one" is meant to obliterate their true selves. And I do have an affection for the bat-Whent connection, so I hope we see it play out. I do think it's very possible Sansa will gain some warg connection with birds/bats. There are gulls around that Titan. 2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said: I agree, this also happens in the Arya's chapters up to and including Mercy and beyond. Sansa and Arya are sister's despite what others may think. Ships and sailing is a very common theme among all of the Stark children whether it is figurative or literal. They are all part of a journey. They totally are the sun and the moon as Ned said. Not in opposition, but complimentary. I do have a feeling their connection will be special in the end considering how they started. 2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said: I often think through Arya's prayer list. Most of Arya's prayer list has been completed for her. Could be because she is an image of the valkyrie who chose the slain? Since Sansa's prayers have a pretty good track record of being answered, why not Arya's as well? The one person their prayers semi-conflicted with was the Hound. Sansa prayed for him to be saved, Arya prayed for the Hound to die. The Hound did die, but 99.9% certain Sandor lives. One sister was mercy and compassion, the other was the accountability of truth, both of which were necessary for Sandor to have a hope of reclaiming his indentity. Which is why I think Sansa's prayers in TWOW have a good chance of coming true as well. 2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said: To me, this is Arya accepting death as part of her Valkyrie identity. I could be wrong, but she is given a task that apparently many have shied away from... eating the worm and worms crawl through dead apples and apples are important in the story. Arya is showing strength in her role Ser Richard Lonmouth is known as the knight of skulls and kisses, bannerman of House Baratheon, but also squire and good friend of Rhaegar Targaryen, whose words are the Choice is Yours. There is a theory that Lem Lemoncloak might be Richard Lonmouth, who Arya has already had an encounter with. Not sure how/if it ties in, but Arya did kiss that skull. Just a thought that came to mind. Lem is definitely a character of vengeance gone out of control, adopting the Hound persona in his helm to make others afraid of him so he himself can't be hurt again. That very much parallels with Arya's story. Quote If I remember correctly, the Ghost of HH also predicts things that have already happened, so predictions that encompass past, present and future events may still be within GRRM standards. I hold a 1% chance the Marillion is still alive and will make it out of the Eyrie and pop up faster than Sansa's lost shoe to help rat LF out and expose Sansa... which could make Harry the Hair like her more because he currently seems "bored" with Sansa Fair enough and we don't 100% for sure know Marillion is dead as we haven't actually seen a body. God, I just can't with Harry. After all this groundwork of "no one will love me for myself," it would just be painfully obvious if he suddenly perked up knowing he was marrying Sansa Stark. He's so much like Robert Baratheon without the fighting skills, I am so hoping Sansa pulls a Lyanna. 2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said: Sansa and Arya are two different girls gaining different knowledge based on their own futures. I don't think one is more dominant than the other. This will actually be a bonus to them as they grow into adults and possible leaders of their own lands I admire both approaches. Brienne is like a fusion of both sisters (her house sigil being the sun and the moon) and she possesses unquestionable bravery and fortitude, but also deep sensitivity and idealism. Two aspects that balance each other out, not in conflict. 2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said: AND the quote system just went down on me????? I can't finish???? Oh no! Did I possibly break it? It was kinda a long part in the spoiler quote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue-Eyed Wolf Posted September 20, 2016 Author Share Posted September 20, 2016 On 9/14/2016 at 7:54 AM, sweetsunray said: It is regularly repeated that the eyes are of fire and that he wears bronze (turned green) and has green hair: these are First Men, greenseer allusions imo who use fire magic. LF is neither of those. The Mountain Clans of the Vale and Bronze Jon Royce though have First Men connotations. The Burned Men (clan of Timett) are fire related. I've been doing a lot of thinking about your essay on a probable avalanche in the Vale and especially here where you make a connection to greenseeing, fire magic, and first men. This is going to sound maybe a little crackpot, but lemme throw this at you. Everything you said about the Mountain Clans and Bronze Yohn makes sense, plus I'm going to add one more possible greenseer/First Men connection that we know is also in the Vale in AFFC and in TWOW sample: Ser Shadrich, Now, the theory that Shadrich = Howland Reed is not new, but I'm going to expand on it a bit and connect it to your essay. As I read back in Bran II, ASOS to re-read Meera's story of the little crannogman, I was looking more toward the part of the crannogman visiting the God's Eye and got some descriptions that seem to match up to what we know of the Mad Mouse so far. Of course, according to the existing theory we already know: height, approximate age, wrinkles and battle scars would likely match HR. The shock of orange hair seems likely dyed to me as that's definitely used several times to hide identities. When gray hair sometimes gets colored pure red-copper, the result can be an unnatural orange. I think this is double purpose as both a disguise and a hint that dyed red hair is to show where his loyalties are. There's also the sigil of his shield with weirwood connection of white mouse with red eyes, plus the brown for all the lands he's traveled and blue for the rivers he crossed. Here's what Meera has to say about the little crannogman that is most certainly her father: Quote He was small like all crannogmen, but brave and smart and strong as well. He grew up hunting and fishing and climbing trees, and learned all the magics of my people. Bran was almost certain he had never heard this story. "Did he have green dreams like Jojen?" "No," said Meera, "but he could breathe mud and run on leaves, and change earth to water and water to earth with no more than a whispered word. He could talk to trees and weave words and make castles appear and disappear." ... "The lad knew the magics of the crannogs," she continued, "but he wanted more. Our people seldom travel far from home, you know. We're a small folk, and our ways seem queer to some, so the big people do not always treat us kindly. But this lad was bolder than most, and one day when he had grown to manhood he decided he would leave the crannogs and visit the Isle of Faces. "No one visits the Isle of Faces," objected Bran. "That's where the green men live." "It was the green men he meant to find. So he donned a shirt sewn with bronze scales, like mine, took up a leathern shield and a three-pronged spear, like mine, and paddled a little skin boat down the Green Fork. So he's got in common with the Mad Mouse that runs toward danger: brave, smart, strong (well we haven't seen him in battle yet), and bold. HR is also described as already knowing the magic of the crannogs, First Men stock also rumored to be intermixed with CotF. The above passage seems to indicate he "wanted more" not just in adventure in places from home, but specifically to learn from the green men on the Isle of Faces. What's interesting here is he already know how to use words to change "earth to water" and "water to earth." He can communicate with trees (maybe through trees?) and he can make castles disappear and appear, which sounds like a hint toward Greywater Watch but also possibly to some type of glamour magic. Meera makes it clear though, he does not have the green dreams of his son, Jojen. This is all pretty impressive, but if he's going to the green men to learn more, we might expect he can amplify that existing magic which I'll get into. Plus, here we also have the connection with a shirt or breastplate of bronze that you also pointed out on the Titan and Bronze Yohn. Quote "He passed beneath the Twins by night so the Freys would not attack him, and when he reached the Trident he climbed from the river and put his boat on his head and began to walk. It took him many a day, but finally he reached the Gods Eye, threw his boat in the lake, and paddled out to the Isle of Faces." ... All that winter the crannogman stayed on the isle, but when the spring broke he heard the wide world calling and knew the time had come to leave. His skin boat was just where he'd left it, so he said his farewells and paddled off toward shore. He rowed and rowed, and finally saw the distant towers of a castle rising beside the lake. The towers reached ever higher as he neared shore, until he realized that this must be the greatest castle in all the world." "Harrenhal!" Bran knew at once. "It was Harrenhal!" So he knows how to navigate enemy territory without getting caught and he can travel pretty far. Sounds very bold, brave, and clever to me like a Mad Mouse. I read your part on Shadrich's chestnut (red-brown) horse, but let me just throw out if Shadrich is HR, he's there to help her and... Spoiler On bumping into her, he hand reaches out to catch her and we've seen that plenty of times when Sandor acts as her protector. This can be a little hint to his intentions toward Sansa. He's already told Alayne in the TWOW he's not a tourney knight so no jousting. She suggests the melee instead, but he makes his little quip about stumbling on to a bag of gold to which strikes Alayne as a semi-odd statement that she just let's pass without a thought. I don't think Shadrich has any intention of really fighting in the tourney. This makes sense with HR too. Quote Crannogmen are smaller than most, but just as proud. The lad was no knight, no more than any of his people. We sit a boat more often than a horse, and our hands are made for oars, not lances. Much as he wished to have his vengeance, he feared he would only make a fool of himself and shame his people. The quiet wolf had offered the little crannogman a place in his tent that night, but before he slept he knelt on the lakeshore, looking across the water to where the Isle of Faces would be, and said a prayer to the old gods of north and Neck . . ." [and looks like HR's prayers get answered just like Sansa's because he got the mystery knight to avenge him] "No one knew," said Meera, "but the mystery knight was short of stature, and clad in ill-fitting armor made up of bits and pieces. The device upon his shield was a heart tree of the old gods, a white weirwood with a laughing red face." "Maybe he came from the Isle of Faces," said Bran. "Was he green?" In Old Nan's stories, the guardians had dark green skin and leaves instead of hair. Sometimes they had antlers too, but Bran didn't see how the mystery knight could have worn a helm if he had antlers. "I bet the old gods sent him. So Shadrich's shield also bears weirwood colors in the face of a mouse at a tourney and if he's HR he's just inversed Lyanna as a Reed defending a Stark. So HR spent a good deal of time with the green men before the false spring and heading off to the tourney at Harrenhal. What could he possibly have learned? The Isle of Faces int he God's Eye is one of the last known places to have weirwoods in the south of westeros. It's also believed to be a possible location greenseers met to bring on the "hammer of the waters" to break the arm of Dorne. The is also where the First Men and the CotF signed their pact, ending their wars, and the order of green men was started to care of the last remaining weirwoods in the south. It's not clear when, but another hammer of the waters was attempted and resulted in the boggy Neck, where the crannog make their home in it's natural defenses. So if it's possible for greenseers to move large amounts of water with magic, why not snow and earth? To start an effective avalanche, you wouldn't even need a large amount of greenseers gathered, just maybe one to get it started and let the mountain do the rest? We know HR is invested in another Stark child, Bran, as he sent his two children to help him. It makes sense he'd also be invested in helping another if he knew where she was. But he does not have green dreams, how could he know where she is? He does talk to (and maybe through) trees and there is one weirwood in the Eyrie: the throne is made of weirwood. At that point, it wouldn't be to difficult to hear about the tourney scheduled at the Gates of the Moon and Shadrich is definitely present there in AFFC. I'm definitely sensing/speculating a possible assist from Bloodraven. If so, why would HR want to start an avalanche and possibly kill a lot of people? Create chaos and confusion, much like the Purple Wedding so he can get Sansa away? Possibly allowing First Men, like the Mountain Clans, to retake the Vale from the Andal Arryns as you say? My guess is during his winter on the Isle of Faces, it wasn't a coincidence he showed up at the tourney of Harrenhal. HR had a pivotal role to play both as witness and actor in the monumental events that transpired. I'm a little worried about this as there's a lot of food stored in the Vale and 20,000 fresh troops that seemed like it was going to be critical; however, the Mountain Clan take over might actually be more critical in the future wars. If he does manage to rescue Sansa, what better place to hide her than Greywater Watch (which outsiders can't even find) or even the Isle of Faces (near Harrenhal and the whole Whent-bat-connection idea). Here's where I'm going to go off the rails a little more, so bear with me.... There's also the theory that Ser Morgarth also hired as a sell-sword with Shadrich to LF is the Elder Brother. Granted, this one is a little less supported as we have just the physical description of the large, brutish hands and the very large, veiny red nose. He did swear an oath not to take up arms again, but considering how upset he was with the events of the Saltpans and how he could not forgive Quincy Cox for doing nothing he may have reconsidered. Honor and oathes are easy to keep until you have to make a choice, as Maester Aemon says. His neglect in allowing the Hound's helm to be taken up by child murderer/rapists made it impossible for Sandor to clear his name aside from the desertion, which might have been pardoned with a regime change. He kinda owes Sandor big time. What has he to do with Shadrich/HR? Maybe nothing, there's still much that's unknown. All we know he's a former knight that fought for Rhaegar, spent 10 years in silence, and in the last 6-7 is a strangely accomplished healer, saving people that maesters can't. There is a cave on the Quiet Isle that dates back 2,000 years and most likely as First Men or CotF connections. We do know that if Morgarth = EB, he is there in AFFC getting hired as a sellsword with Shadrich. Shadrich is pretty open about the fact that he's looking for Sansa, at least with Brienne. There's no logical reason for him to out himself as another bounty hunter looking for Sansa if it's just for gold. Maybe it came up at least once in conversation with Morgarth perhaps? EB is very aware of who Sansa is and that she is missing. Sandor could have guessed she might have gone to the Eyrie to see her aunt and that's a good place to start. Now I'm totally going off the rails here, I know this is very crazy, but just for fun hear me out... Now there's one other guy in the trio of sell swords that kinda gets ignored or is hiding in plain sight: Ser Byron the Beautiful. The problem with both Shadrich/HR and Morgarth/EB is they have a basic description of Sansa, which is probably enough to identify her on their own, but why would Sansa trust them enough to go with them or go along with a plan? She doesn't know the EB and she doesn't know HR in person. I know there's a theory that Byron is Tyrek Lannister, but I don't see it. Sansa would probably recognize any Lannister as she was pretty vigilant about faces and names. Quote The hour was closer to dawn than to dusk, and most of the castle was asleep, but not Petyr Baelish. Alayne found him seated by a crackling fire, drinking hot mulled wine with three men she did not know. They all rose when she entered, and Petyr smiled warmly. "Alayne. Come, give your father a kiss." She hugged him dutifully and kissed him on the cheek. "I am sorry to intrude, Father. No one told me you had company." "You are never an intrusion, sweetling. I was just now telling these good knights what a dutiful daughter I had." "Dutiful and beautiful," said an elegant young knight whose thick blond mane cascaded down well past his shoulders. "Aye," said the second knight, a burly fellow with a thick salt-and-pepper beard, a red nose bulbous with broken veins, and gnarled hands as large as hams. "You left out that part, m'lord." "I would do the same if she were my daughter," said the last knight, a short, wiry man with a wry smile, pointed nose, and bristly orange hair. "Particularly around louts like us." Alayne laughed. "Are you louts?" she said, teasing. "Why, I took the three of you for gallant knights." "Knights they are," said Petyr. ", Their gallantry has yet to be demonstrated but we may hope. Allow me to present Ser Byron, Ser Morgarth, and Ser Shadrich. Sers, the Lady Alayne, my natural and very clever daughter . . . with whom I must needs confer, if you will be so good as to excuse us." The three knights bowed and withdrew, though the tall one with the blond hair kissed her hand before taking his leave. Morgarth seems to be making a dig at LF for not being totally forthcoming about his "daughter" and of course that wry smile of Shadrich seems he knows more than he lets on. We could just take at face value that Byron is just complimenting her and performing some courtly gesture with the kissing of her hand. He could be just some sell sword that seems a little on the fancy side, but Sansa notes three characteristics about him: he's elegant, the length and color of his hair, and he's tall, but barely pays him any mind compared to the other two. I think this is someone hiding in plain sight and the kissing of her hand is twofold: to signal a positive ID on Sansa and to show he's actually in her service. Ok, I know this is sounding nutty. But I think glamouring is not just something Melisandre does. She already demonstrated casting by casting a glamour on Mance to make him look like Rattleshirt that glamouring changes what people perceive, so even a tall guy like Mance changes into a smaller Rattleshirt. She probably is glamouring herself. There's also a strong suggestion in the Mystery Knight that Bloodraven has the ability to glamour. So glamour may be ancient CotF magic and as I showed before, seems like HR has a decent list of magical abilities plus whatever he's learned of the Isle of Faces. So who could make a positive ID on Sansa, plus be the one person that would convince her to leave with them? Sandor, one of the most recognizable people in Westeros. So what better way to disguise him than by glamouring as a blonde, elegant knight who would kiss hands like Sandor would never do. It's odd that Shadrich refers to them all as "louts" when there doesn't seem to be anything loutish about Byron, but he could describe Sandor that way. The name Byron is curious too, because it reminds me of "Byronesque" style typified by dark romantic themes and brooding, arrogant, self-destructive heroes. Morgarth and Shadrich are definitely present for TWOW sample, but Byron is not mentioned, which might mean nothing (if he's no one special), but if he was just hired as a guard his absence might mean something. Sandor is really good at making himself inconspicuous. He always seemed to appear out of shadows and he even managed to trick a knight into not noticing him when he was with Arya at the Twins. We don't know the exact passage of time, but since he's been doing arduous labor gravedigging, I would assume by now his limp has healed even more. Ok, I'm done. I got the crackpot out of my system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted September 20, 2016 Share Posted September 20, 2016 @Blue-Eyed Wolf Very interesting crackpot indeed! I've read @bemused 's proposal on Ser Shadrich as HR and that Ser Morgarth may be Elder Brother. Though Shadrich rides a chestnut horse we're never told what gender it is. If it's a mare then it might not have such an ominous connotation. We have seen Sansa ride a red mare before, and that was indeed when she was saved by Sandor from the riot in KL (and when Tyrek disappeared). In fact they rode double on that mare. I would agree that HR sounds like a magician. Kindly man references glamoring as a minor magic to Arya. The magic of taking on a dead person's faces is more powerful in his eyes than a glamor. And I think Rh'llor has no exclusive magical powers over fire. Bran sees things in the cave while looking in the flames, while he's not in the weirwood. Mel sees BR and Bran looking and laughing at her in the flames. There seems to be way too much weirwood connections in the RL and the BwB for Beric and LS (who was fished out of a river) for it being exclusively Rh'llor. The green men at the Gods Eye seem imo powerful magicians. While obviously there is a difference in elementals, I don't see why any magician would be excluded from manipulating a certain type of element. After all the green men of the Gods Eye are there because of a pact between First Men and CotF, and the First Men came with Fire and metal (bronze) to Westeros. And if a magician did go to the Quiet Isle and knows how to glamor, then Elder Brother has Rhaegar's rubies washed upon the island to do it. Hahahaha, that would indeed be funny if Byron is a glamored Sandor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue-Eyed Wolf Posted September 20, 2016 Author Share Posted September 20, 2016 @sweetsunray I too read those essays and I think they're very well laid out for the information currently available. Good catch on Sansa's red mare and that they rode double. Of course there is a loose Tyrek connection with the riot, but I just don't see how or why Tyrek would be motivated to be at the Vale to capture or rescue Sansa, so I couldn't really get into that theory. I agree there's so much overlapping of magic, it's more of a matter of "branding" with religion and culture rather than actual distinctions between practitioners. If glamouring is a form of more basic magic, then it makes sense just about anyone can do it. The really advanced stuff seems to be taking an actual face, which is more shape-shifting than pure illusion. Even with the Faith of the Seven, there seems to be a level of mysticism beneath all the pageantry that could connect to all other forms of magic and mysticism. I'm very interested to know why a former knight got so good at healing beyond conventional maester skills. You could even say Sansa has blurred distinctions between First Men religion, the Seven, and even fire/blood. The burning of her bloody sheets is closely in conjunction with her prayer for a knight to help her and her prayers have a really good track record of being answered. 11 hours ago, sweetsunray said: And if a magician did go to the Quiet Isle and knows how to glamor, then Elder Brother has Rhaegar's rubies washed upon the island to do it. Hahahaha, that would indeed be funny if Byron is a glamored Sandor Just when I thought I'd get an eyeroll, you come along and throw fuel on my fire! OMG the rubies!!! It's just even funnier as a subversion of the Disney-fied BatB where he gets turned into a hottie at the end. Except in this scene, Sansa barely pays any attention to Byron. Doesn't get fixated on his gallantry or looks, doesn't get swept up in a hand kiss. She's just kinda "yeah, whatever." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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