Jump to content

Heresy 191 The Crows


Black Crow

Recommended Posts

4 hours ago, aDanceWithFlagons said:

This is all very interesting, and I really like the connections you've made here. I've been leaning towards Coldhands as a Blackwood or having Blackwood blood. In the last Heresy thread someone brought up Raven tree Hall and the ravens perched on the Heart Tree like leaves. Well, that lead me to think about the name, Blackwood and mayhaps how that name came about. A wood full of ravens could easily be designated as a 'black wood' - A family of skinchangers with an affinity for corvids filling the woods with the black birds.

 

Oh I like that one - very plausible

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I agree with everything here except the bolded and that's only because i think there's some problems with the pairing and how its set up. I think the myth works but in the context of the story.In the myth the war is neccessary,but in this story there is no war because to quote Osha

" Winter has no king" 

Jon hasn't taken up his spot yet.He got shagged,yeah but he hasn't done the journey yet.

And therein lies the problem because Winter needs a king. 

ETA: And do we link that with the fact that the Starks were once Kings of Winter? 

And from that can we speculate that may be connected with [if not necessarily the cause] of the seasons being screwed because the cycle has been broken?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Yeah the Wicker man is a callback to the spirit messanger and efigy that gets sacrificed instead of a real person.In my tradition he get's used at spring and at lammas more often.Its in ritualistic context and the burning is a working of sympathetic magic directed at changing what the effigy represents or preventing  its power from growing.

So the efigy must represent something or a person.

 

At Kentwell we burn the Green Man at the summer solstice rather than Lammas.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, aDanceWithFlagons said:

This is all very interesting, and I really like the connections you've made here. I've been leaning towards Coldhands as a Blackwood or having Blackwood blood.

The Warg King was defeated by the Starks at Sea Dragon Point. Sea Dragon Point is the western end of the Wolfswood. At the eastern end is Winterfell.

The Blackwoods lived in the wolfswood before being removed from there by the Starks.

The Wolfswood was one of two primary residences of the children (with the Rainwood). There is an obvious connection between the children and the ravens.

The Blackwoods' sigil is a pack of ravens.

I think the Warg King was a Blackwood; his gift was nurtered by the children of the wolfswood, who were his allies. Coldhands, who died long ago, and as some of pointed out has a very strong connection with the ravens, is the undead Warg King.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Cowboy Dan said:

Really liking this! Definitely agree with the magical abilities being passed down through the mothers. It seems to be an idea that's getting more traction lately and I noticed the same thing after reading Catelyn's and Sansa's POV chapters. They both have these flashes of seeing visions in real time then they blink and everything becomes mundane again. Can't find the original thread but I've definitely seen the idea mentioned that Cat gets her affinity from Blackwood blood through her Whent mother which she then passes on to the Stark kids.

Have you looked into potential greenseer/warg connections from the Bracken side? After all, "There's Blackwood blood in every Bracken, and Bracken blood in every Blackwood."

As for the Quentyn parallel I've seen a similarity with a couple other characters having the same name in isolated incidents but the ones I saw weren't as direct as tying the families together like that. More that they had or would have similar roles in relation to their situations. Perhaps the Quentyns have some event or circumstance involving their parentage that's similar.

That could be the wrong angle altogether and it has to do with their deaths. Maybe punishment by dragons is the connection? Qorgyle was sentenced to the Wall in lieu of death whereas as Quentyn Martell in his dealings with actual dragons got the roast? Just spitballing here as it seems there's almost no info on Qorgyle.

There definitely seems to be something about some of the Blackwood girls.  It really comes to the fore in Jaime's dealing with Lord Bracken and Lord Blackwood in ADWD.  First Lord Bracken is the one to suggest that Jaime takes Blackwood's only daughter as hostage:

Quote

"His daughter," suggested Bracken.  "Blackwood has six sons, but only one daughter.  He dotes on her.  A snot-nosed little creature, couldn't be more than seven."

And Lord Blackwood is a real cool customer with Jaime until the subject of his daughter comes up:

Quote

"Done, then.  But for one last thing."

"A hostage"

"Yes, my lord.  You have a daughter, I believe."

"Bethany." Lord Tytos looked stricken.  "I also have two brothers and a sister.  A pair of widowed aunts.  Nieces, nephews, cousins.  I had thought you might consent..."

"It must be a child of your blood."

"Bethany is only eight.  A gentle girl, full of laughter, she has never been more than a day's ride from my hall."...

"I will accept Hoster as our Hostage."

Blackwood's relief was palpable.

We have a Blackwood mother giving birth to one of the most powerful skinchangers in the book, and both House Stark and House Targaryen have recently taken Blackwood brides, so I think there is something there.

And it is interesting that for all their feuding, it appears that there is a lot of intermarriage between House Bracken and House Blackwood.  My guess is that they may have a similar relationship that House Targaryen had with House Velaryon.  When House Targaryen couldn't marry brother to sister, they reached out to House Velaryons, who seemed to be First Cousins to House Targaryen.  If you can't keep a genetic trait in in your direct line, then the next best place to go is your to the family of your first cousin I suppose.

I wonder if historically, Bracken served the same purpose to House Blackwood as Velaryon did to House Targaryen, they were a repository for Blackwood's magic genes, since House Blackwood probably could not practice incest like the Targaryens did.  Interesting that both the Brackens and Velaryons have a type of horse as their sigil.  It just appears that Brackens might have chafed at the yolk a little more than House Velaryon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, Black Crow said:

And therein lies the problem because Winter needs a king. 

ETA: And do we link that with the fact that the Starks were once Kings of Winter? 

And from that can we speculate that may be connected with [if not necessarily the cause] of the seasons being screwed because the cycle has been broken?

I think at this moment it doesn't have its King...Yet.I think it hasn't had one for a longtime.

As for the Starks styling themselves that....I'm thinking they stole the title.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Really, really awesome OP, @Black Crow!

You've had me pretty convinced for a while that the ravens and/or crows are players.

While they may be aligned with the Old Races or Old Gods or something along those lines, I think it's more realistic to see any given species as in it for their own kind. If the ravens and crows are independent players, I think the explanation for their motive could be rather simple:

As a carnivorous scavenger species, they'll ally themselves with whoever has the best chance to provide for them through the Long Night to come. I know there are Singers living second lives inside many or all of the ravens, but when you take the historical population of the Singers into account, it's pretty likely that most of them faded away almost entirely a very long time ago. Considering Westeros' recent epidemic of violence, as well as recent events North of the Wall, the Others seem like the current best bet for the birds. (Side note: I like the idea that Martin named one of his volumes "A Feast for Crows" for this very reason.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I think at this moment it doesn't have its King...Yet.I think it hasn't had one for a longtime.

As for the Starks styling themselves that....I'm thinking they stole the title.

 

I have to disagree. They were once Kings of Winter, but something happened. The cycle was broken and that's why Winter doesn't now have a King - and why a resolution of this needs a King of Winter.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/12/2016 at 11:47 PM, Black Crow said:

At Kentwell we burn the Green Man at the summer solstice rather than Lammas.

Nice! Beltane and Lammas for us.

14 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I have to disagree. They were once Kings of Winter, but something happened. The cycle was broken and that's why Winter doesn't now have a King - and why a resolution of this needs a King of Winter.

Yeah,i know they were once Kings of Winter,but how did they come by the title? What event if any led to them becoming KOW.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Even so... thus far in this song of Ice and Fire the crows are the winners

This true.Not to  mention they seem to be the only ones..Well along with the Direwolves who won't go hungry in Winter.Where other animals won't approach the dead they will attack and even eat.

Any season seems to be "A Feast for Crows" I had to go there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

There definitely seems to be something about some of the Blackwood girls.  It really comes to the fore in Jaime's dealing with Lord Bracken and Lord Blackwood in ADWD.  First Lord Bracken is the one to suggest that Jaime takes Blackwood's only daughter as hostage:

And Lord Blackwood is a real cool customer with Jaime until the subject of his daughter comes up:

We have a Blackwood mother giving birth to one of the most powerful skinchangers in the book, and both House Stark and House Targaryen have recently taken Blackwood brides, so I think there is something there.

And it is interesting that for all their feuding, it appears that there is a lot of intermarriage between House Bracken and House Blackwood.  My guess is that they may have a similar relationship that House Targaryen had with House Velaryon.  When House Targaryen couldn't marry brother to sister, they reached out to House Velaryons, who seemed to be First Cousins to House Targaryen.  If you can't keep a genetic trait in in your direct line, then the next best place to go is your to the family of your first cousin I suppose.

I wonder if historically, Bracken served the same purpose to House Blackwood as Velaryon did to House Targaryen, they were a repository for Blackwood's magic genes, since House Blackwood probably could not practice incest like the Targaryens did.  Interesting that both the Brackens and Velaryons have a type of horse as their sigil.  It just appears that Brackens might have chafed at the yolk a little more than House Velaryon.

I think House Blackwood has positioned themselves nicely Bertha Blackwood is also the Grandmother and to Robert and his brothers

I remember we had spoken a while back on a Westrosi version of the Eugenics program involving Blackwood blood.

It seems to be coming up a lot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Nice! Beltane and Lammas for us.

Yeah,i know they were once Kings of Winter,but how did they come by the title? What event if any led to them becoming KOW.

When they cut a deal with the tree-huggers which saw sons of Winterfell put into the ground - until the Pact was broken and with it the title?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know if this is apropos or not:

Quote

I dreamt of a man without a face, waiting on a bridge that swayed and swung. On his shoulder perched a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from his wings.

Besides telling us that Euron will hire a faceless man to kill his brother; the crow perched on the shoulder of the FM reminds me of Mormont's raven in the sense that it is watching the event.  The drowned crow or the drowned god?

Quote

Your Drowned God is a demon, he is no more than a thrall of the Other, the dark god whose name must not be spoken.- Moqorro

If this is about Euron; it's curious that the GHH sees him as a crow with seaweed hanging from it's wings. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

I don't know if this is apropos or not:

Besides telling us that Euron will hire a faceless man to kill his brother; the crow perched on the shoulder of the FM reminds me of Mormont's raven in the sense that it is watching the event.  The drowned crow or the drowned god?

If this is about Euron; it's curious that the GHH sees him as a crow with seaweed hanging from it's wings. 

Oh I think that its very apropos

Something to bear in mind here is that the Sistermen speak of the Storm God and the Lady of the Waves, married but constantly battling - just as are Ice and Fire. 

Although we hear the story through the Sistermen there is a strong connection to the Ironborn. In the first place Rafe Kenning, the dying Ironborn commander at Moat Caillin has the arm and thunderbolt sigil of the Storm God on his shield, and secondly the Damphair - priest of the Drowned Men and therefore in his way a devotee of the Lady of the Waves - hates and fears the crows because they belong to the Storm God. And this is also confirmed by the Stormlands family, House Morrigen whose sigil is a crow volant [see my sigil] on a storm green sky.

So, leaving aside family feuding we see the Ironborn following two factions religion-wise. At the moment the Drowned Men/Lady of the Seas lot are on top. Its the official religion; but then opposed to them are the followers of the Storm God and his crows, and amongst them is Euron.

The question it begs is where they fit in with those crows working with the three-fingered tree-huggers? Are they connected? And is House Morrigen/Morrigan a significant clue? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...