Heresy 191 The Crows

[Matthew.]

I've always read the crows rescuing Sam and Gilly as being collectively controlled by either BR or CH, and I don't think this is particularly controversial, when it's established through Varamyr that a powerful skinchanger can control multiple animals, including animals that are totally unwilling 'companions;' the mechanics of this probably don't need to be overthought, as the magic is pretty obviously as limited (or unlimited) as GRRM needs it to be at any given time.

Personally, I don't know that being able to direct a murder of crows is more "god-like," magically speaking, than resurrecting the dead, bringing dragons back into the world, viewing the past, sending dreams, shattering the Arm of Dorne, building the Wall, or any number of other things that have already happened in the story. With all due respect to GRRM, he pays lip service to all sorts of ideals in interviews and SSMs that he doesn't necessarily live up to in practice as an author.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

37 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

With all due respect to GRRM, he pays lip service to all sorts of ideals in interviews and SSMs that he doesn't necessarily live up to in practice as an author.

I agree that this often seems to be true. But in his defense, he's written a hell of a lot of content for these books at this point - so if we go looking for anything in these books we're likely to find it. For any statement Martin's made in an interview, there's likely a "counterexample" available in the text. 

In this particular case, what Martin has said about "gods" is often misconstrued anyway.  I've frequently seen the claim made that GRRM has said "there will be no gods" appearing in his story - or something to that effect.  And in fact, what he said was this:

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"Well, the readers are certainly free to wonder about the validity of these religions, the truth of these religions, and the teachings of these religions. I'm a little leery of the word "true" — whether any of these religions are more true than others. I mean, look at the analogue of our real world. We have many religions too. Are some of them more true than others? I don't think any gods are likely to be showing up in Westeros, any more than they already do. We're not going to have one appearing, deus ex machina, to affect the outcomes of things, no matter how hard anyone prays. So the relation between the religions and the various magics that some people have here is something that the reader can try to puzzle out."

That's the core statement, in bold - and it's about as suggestive and ambiguous as any Heretic could want it to be.  (Full interview here.)  

And as you point out, Matthew - we've already seen quite a few people in these books performing "godlike" acts of supernatural power. Furthermore, Martin has stated for the record that the magic quotient will rise with each published volume. So while he's ruled out any deus ex machina plot resolutions - I don't think the mass skinchanging of a flock of birds is out of bounds.  In fact, we may have already seen it.

 

[ravenous reader]

21 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

A bit on ravens....

As most already know, ravens in real-world are referred to as "wolf-birds" because they have a symbiotic relationship with wolves. Wolf kills provide food for the ravens, and ravens serve as eyes and ears for the wolves to which they are partnered.

Ravens also have significance in multiple religions, including this interesting bit from Judaism:

"Aside from the social and symbiotic relationship between wolves and ravens, there is another connection between them. The Hebrew name for raven, orev, is comprised of the same letters as the word erev, dusk.   Dusk is the time so epitomized by wolves that they are repeatedly referred to as "the wolves of dusk".   According to some they are referred to solely by the name "dusky" in the Egyptian plague, the same word used as the name of the raven. The Midrash, a commentary on part of the Hebrew scriptures, also records a view that that the Egyptian plague of arov was comprised of ravens and other such birds, but another view maintains that it was both wolves and ravens.

The etymology of the name orev for raven is simple to explain in terms of the raven's black plumage, reminiscent of the onset of night.   But one can also see other ways in which the raven is related to this word:   Erev, or dusk, is the time when day mixes with night. In fact, the word for mixture in Hebrew is ervuv. Ravens are a mixture in that they are the only bird to possess two of the signs of kosher birds as well as two of the signs of non-kosher birds – a true mixture.

The Midrash notes that the raven also has a tendency to mix even when mixing is forbidden: "There were three that engaged in sexual relations while in the Ark: Ham, the raven, and the dog." (Talmud, Sanhedrin 108b)    Males and females of all species were to remain separate for the duration of their stay on the Ark, but the ravens negated this, mingling together and mating. Perhaps it is for this reason that the chieftains of Midian are called Ze'ev and Orev by the Torah. The crime of Midian was to send their girls to mix and intermingle with the Jewish People. Ravens and wolves are both creatures that represent dusk, the mixture of light and dark, and also mixing in general. Furthermore they mix with each other, mammal with bird. The dusky ravens and wolves of dusk are both symbols of the mixing of two distinct realms."

The Hebrew origins of the words, with your subsequent exegesis, is so interesting!  GRRM also hints at a raven-wolf connection in his language, for example poetically describing a wind as a 'ravening wolf.'  The figure of Bran in particular is equal parts wolf, raven and tree-- all working in tandem, as you suggest.

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Now on the subject of ravens mixing with wolves, both being liminal creatures, I wanted to touch on something dropped into an old SSM that seems like nothing, but in context of birds takes on new meaning.

December 15, 2000
About Benjen Stark
Submitted By: Michael
I was wondering if you would comment on Benjen Stark's fighting ability. Is he on a level with Brandon, or is he more like Ned?

Depends on the kind of fight you had in mind.
Brandon was the best of the Starks with sword in hand, and the best jouster as well. But Benjen has other skills that serve him well as a ranger... and Ned was likely the best battle commander.

 

Other skills that serve Benjen as a ranger - scouting, tracking, navigating.    If you take the bolded as a strong hint that Benjen has some kind of special ability, would it be out of the realm of possibility to believe that the "wolf pup" perhaps has a corvid companion?    Benjen as First Ranger is the Planetos version of Heimdall, guardian of the Bifrost bridge of Asgard in Norse mythology - and in the mythology, the reason Odin chose Heimdall for the position is his possession of extraordinary senses, mainly sight and hearing, that allow him to observe things that are happening far away.

If you are a First Ranger, guardian of the Wall, and were in need of some kind of animal familiar, what creature would give you advanced abilities of sight and hearing that would allow you to observe things at great distance?

A BIRD.   A wolf and a raven, operating in tandem.

I also find it interesting that we readers are not introduced to Mormont's talking raven until after Benjen has left for the ranging - and the talking is limited to single repeated words: corn, duel, etc.   Immediately before, Jon is thinking about Benjen's departure.

"Benjen Stark frowned. "A boy you are, and a boy you'll remain until Ser Alliser says you are fit to be a man of the Night's Watch. If you thought your Stark blood would win you easy favors, you were wrong. We put aside our old families when we swear our vows. Your father will always have a place in my heart, but these are my brothers now." He gestured with his dagger at the men around them, all the hard cold men in black.

Jon rose at dawn the next day to watch his uncle leave. One of his rangers, a big ugly man, sang a bawdy song as he saddled his garron, his breath steaming in the cold morning air. Ben Stark smiled at that, but he had no smile for his nephew. "How often must I tell you no, Jon? We'll speak when I return."

As he watched his uncle lead his horse into the tunnel, Jon had remembered the things that Tyrion Lannister told him on the kingsroad, and in his mind's eye he saw Ben Stark lying dead, his blood red on the snow. The thought made him sick. What was he becoming?"

So, Jon has a creepy premonition about Benjen's death.   Then two chapters later, there's this:
"The thought of Benjen Stark saddened him; his uncle was still missing. The Old Bear had sent out rangers in search of him. Ser Jaremy Rykker had led two sweeps, and Quorin Halfhand had gone forth from the Shadow Tower, but they'd found nothing aside from a few blazes in the trees that his uncle had left to mark his way. In the stony highlands to the northwest, the marks stopped abruptly and all trace of Ben Stark vanished."

Jon's next chapter, he's about to swear his vows, and talks with Aemon about making Sam a steward, to help with the ravens.   Mormont's raven begins spouting new words it's never said before...in Jon's presence.
The next chapter, Jon is made a steward to Mormont, says his vows at the weirwood, and Ghost finds the hand on the way back. It is almost 6 months after Benjen's departure.
It is at this point that Mormont's raven starts getting really chatty - particularly to/about Jon - and is stringing together words and/or choosing words from the middle of sentences to repeat rather than lingering end words.

 

GRRM in some fan convo gave a cryptic "Interesting idea" or cagey smirk or some other non-answer when asked by a fan if Mormont's raven was being skinchanged, which along with the above leads me to believe that wolf and raven, from two distinct realms, were indeed working together...and when the bond was broken due to the death (?) of the wolf, the raven found another.  Black of wing needs a wolf in black of cloak.    This begs the question:  if true, what was the symbiotic relationship that was in place, and will it further develop with Jon?  He seems to be doing a deliberate tuning out of much of the raven-speech.

At first, I though you might be suggesting that Benjen Stark's soul had somehow been captured in the raven?  Do you not believe the raven is being skinchanged at all?  

In line with your raven-wolves-working-in-tandem theory, Theon is likened to a 'well-trained raven' at the service of the wolves, who have made him one of them, and therefore he is rejected as such by his father Balon.  I think Theon is becoming Bran's symbolic raven, or Hand, while Bran is bound to the tree. One of my favorite quotes is when Bran thinks 'we could all be ravens and live in Maester Luwin's rookery.'  Supporting the idea of Theon as Bran's raven, Theon feels at home in the godswood and rookery, and is delighted that the tree and ravens know his name, claiming him as one of their own.  While touring the crypts, Theon also identifies with his 'namesake Theon Stark the hungry wolf.'  A hungry wolf is also a 'ravening' or 'ravenous' one.

2 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I've always read the crows rescuing Sam and Gilly as being collectively controlled by either BR or CH, and I don't think this is particularly controversial, when it's established through Varamyr that a powerful skinchanger can control multiple animals, including animals that are totally unwilling 'companions;' the mechanics of this probably don't need to be overthought, as the magic is pretty obviously as limited (or unlimited) as GRRM needs it to be at any given time.

Personally, I don't know that being able to direct a murder of crows is more "god-like," magically speaking, than resurrecting the dead, bringing dragons back into the world, viewing the past, sending dreams, shattering the Arm of Dorne, building the Wall, or any number of other things that have already happened in the story. With all due respect to GRRM, he pays lip service to all sorts of ideals in interviews and SSMs that he doesn't necessarily live up to in practice as an author.

We've already encountered an example of Bloodraven, aka Brynden Rivers, directing 'a murder of ravens' of a kind:

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The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Daeron II

In this manner did the First Blackfyre Rebellion begin, in the year 196 AC. Reversing the colors of the traditional Targaryen arms to show a black dragon on a red field, the rebels declared for Princess Daena's bastard son Daemon Blackfyre, First of His Name, proclaiming him the eldest true son of King Aegon IV, and his half brother Daeron the bastard. Subsequently many battles were fought between the black and red dragons in the Vale, the westerlands, the riverlands, and elsewhere.

The rebellion ended at the Redgrass Field, nigh on a year later. Some have written of the boldness of the men who fought with Daemon, and others of their treason. But for all their valor in the field and their enmity against Daeron, theirs was a lost cause. Daemon and his eldest sons, Aegon and Aemon, were brought down beneath the withering fall of arrows sent by Brynden Rivers and his private guards, the Raven's Teeth.

 

1 hour ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

I don't think the mass skinchanging of a flock of birds is out of bounds.  In fact, we may have already seen it.

Indeed.  Here, for example:

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“Show us your face.”

The ranger made no move to obey.

“He’s dead.” Bran could taste the bile in his throat. “Meera, he’s some dead thing. The monsters cannot pass so long as the Wall stands and the men of the Night’s Watch stay true, that’s what Old Nan used to say. He came to meet us at the Wall, but he could not pass. He sent Sam instead, with that wildling girl.”

Meera’s gloved hand tightened around the shaft of her frog spear. “Who sent you? Who is this three-eyed crow?”

“A friend. Dreamer, wizard, call him what you will. The last greenseer.”

Following this introduction, as if in response, the door opens, the wind howls, and the ravens scream in unison:

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The longhall’s wooden door banged open. Outside, the night wind howled, bleak and black. The trees were full of ravens, screaming. Coldhands did not move.

“A monster,” Bran said.

The ranger looked at Bran as if the rest of them did not exist. “Your monster, Brandon Stark.”

“Yours,” the raven echoed, from his shoulder. Outside the door, the ravens in the trees took up the cry, until the night wood echoed to the murderer’s song of “Yours, yours, yours.”

 

Note, GRRM does not say 'the murder's song' as one might expect-- i.e. the song that the murder of ravens sing together -- he says 'the murderer's song,' implying that the song points to a specific individual behind the flock of ravens.  And all the evidence points to that individual being Bloodraven. We know he's a murderer including kinslayer, in addition to being associated with ravens and crows.  That's why he was banished to the Wall in the first place, so the assignation is apt.  Note also the flock of birds sings with one voice, 'taking up the cry until the night wood echoed' to one song 'yours, yours, yours.'  Bloodraven has 'a thousand eyes and one,' therefore a flock of birds might very well be able to function collectively in his service.

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A Storm of Swords - Samwell III

Sam made a whimpery sound. "It's not fair . . ."

"Fair." The raven landed on his shoulder. "Fair, far, fear." It flapped its wings, and screamed along with Gilly. The wights were almost on her. He heard the dark red leaves of the weirwood rustling, whispering to one another in a tongue he did not know.

The weirwood 'rustling' and 'whispering' is a clear give-away that Bloodraven is present.

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

The singers made Bran a throne of his own, like the one Lord Brynden sat, white weirwood flecked with red, dead branches woven through living roots. They placed it in the great cavern by the abyss, where the black air echoed to the sound of running water far below. Of soft grey moss they made his seat. Once he had been lowered into place, they covered him with warm furs.

There he sat, listening to the hoarse whispers of his teacher. "Never fear the darkness, Bran." The lord's words were accompanied by a faint rustling of wood and leaf, a slight twisting of his head. 

Bloodraven's words are referred to as 'the lord's words,' referring both to his title as 'Lord Brynden Rivers' and 'Lord Commander of the Night's Watch' as well as indicating the attainment, at least through his magical powers, of something akin to a godly status.

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The starlight itself seemed to stir, and all around them the trees groaned and creaked. Sam Tarly turned the color of curdled milk, and his eyes went wide as plates. Ravens! They were in the weirwood, hundreds of them, thousands, perched on the bone-white branches, peering between the leaves. He saw their beaks open as they screamed, saw them spread their black wings. Shrieking, flapping, they descended on the wights in angry clouds. They swarmed round Chett's face and pecked at his blue eyes, they covered the Sisterman like flies, they plucked gobbets from inside Hake's shattered head. There were so many that when Sam looked up, he could not see the moon.

"Go," said the bird on his shoulder. "Go, go, go."

Thousands of ravens 'peering between the leaves' represent Bloodraven's 1000-plus eyes surveying the scene and descending like so many flying, pointed arrows of the 'raven's teeth.'

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Yep. In a not so subtle way. 

He rose and dressed in darkness, as Mormont’s raven muttered across the room. “Corn,” the bird said, and, “King,” and, “Snow, Jon Snow, Jon Snow.” That was queer. The bird had never said his full name before, as best Jon could recall.

 

Corn King, Jon Snow. 

 

A raven amongst 'crows' at the Wall. A 'crow' amongst ravens in the Cave.

[Matthew.]

2 hours ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

I agree that this often seems to be true. But in his defense, he's written a hell of a lot of content for these books at this point - so if we go looking for anything in these books we're likely to find it. For any statement Martin's made in an interview, there's likely a "counterexample" available in the text. 

In this particular case, what Martin has said about "gods" is often misconstrued anyway.  I've frequently seen the claim made that GRRM has said "there will be no gods" appearing in his story - or something to that effect.  And in fact, what he said was this:

That's the core statement, in bold - and it's about as suggestive and ambiguous as any Heretic could want it to be.  (Full interview here.)  

And as you point out, Matthew - we've already seen quite a few people in these books performing "godlike" acts of supernatural power. Furthermore, Martin has stated for the record that the magic quotient will rise with each published volume. So while he's ruled out any deus ex machina plot resolutions - I don't think the mass skinchanging of a flock of birds is out of bounds.  In fact, we may have already seen it.

 

I didn't intend for my comment to seem overly critical of Martin, as it would be almost impossible to write a story of this scale without occasionally dipping into the well of fantasy tropes that he criticizes. In any case, I never take things he says in SSMs as 'canon,' or promises, as he has been known to occasionally throw out and rewrite huge sections of the novels, as happened with ADWD--I actually don't hold any such inconsistencies against him. My comment was really meant more as a criticism of the way SSMs are used in discussion, as opposed to a criticism of Martin himself.

I also agree that that specific quote is being misinterpreted. My take away from that interview was that he's specifically dismissing the notion that figures such as R'hllor, the Great Other, or the Seven will personally intervene in the story, regardless of whether or not they exist at all--he wasn't dismissing the appearance of "god-like" magic, which has been an element of the setting from the very beginning.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

My last post was begun earlier so now it's out of place. Meant to follow up BC's comment last page.

While the 'murder' of ravens could be Bloodraven, I think they have more to do with Coldhands himself. I've likened Coldhands to a raven in a man's body. He has the black eyes which are compared to a raven's eyes. He understands the quorks. He travels and works with ravens. Dont know exactly what Coldhands is, or how he found his current situation, but when you think about the ravens in the cave which have a little something left over from the cotf, it seems likely that this shadow of a soul is made possible through the weirwoods. How else could all the ravens have shadows of Singers inside them unless there is some transference through the weirwoods? And this line of thinking leads me to see Coldhands as a similar creature. Some mix of crow and weirwood and man and possibly cotf too. 

And on a similar note... The corvids seem to have some special bond with the singers and trees. I've entertained the idea that the ravens and crows were the first groups to have a symbiotic relationship with the weirwoods. The cotf followed after.

[PrettyPig]

59 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

At first, I though you might be suggesting that Benjen Stark's soul had somehow been captured in the raven?  Do you not believe the raven is being skinchanged at all?

Funny you should ask...I actually posted the above elsewhere some time ago, and at the time I posited that Benjen was indeed living a second life in Mormont's raven; he was in fact killed on the ranging as most suspect/fear, and he either took possession of Mormont's raven or the raven's former tenant  packed bags and left it for the new occupant, whatever suits you.

This, of course, implies that 1) Benjen is a warg, something for which we have no evidence beyond that aforementioned SSM about his special skills, and 2) he is either a particularly powerful warg able to kick the mighty Bloodraven out of the host body, or he is actually in cahoots with said Head Raven In Charge, who volunteered the sublet arrangement.

Since that is complete wild speculation on my part, I reined it in a bit and offered up only the notion that Benjen (wolf) and Mormont's raven had a working relationship of some kind.   Now, *I* do still like the idea that Benjen did indeed take over Mormen (that's his name, btw) after his death (that Jon so clearly saw in his brief glimpse through the veil), and has been trying to communicate with Jon in a corvid sort of way henceforth, but I'm also more willing to dance on the thin ice of Crackpot Pond than a lot of folks, so take that for what it's worth.

However, on the subject of whether or not a single warg/greenseer combo platter could effectively commit 'mass murder' and skinchange the whole lot at once, I don't know the answer to that but it certainly opens some windows of possibility re: Benjen and Mormen.  Is Bloodraven's hold over the host weakened by numbers when he spreads himself too thin, allowing another warg to slip into one via the back door?   Would he be cognizant of a single raven amongst thousands that wasn't under his supervision?     If he IS able to control them all simultaneously, would he have used another raven body besides Mormen to be Benjen's familiar on ranging?  And, the most burning question of all:  if Bloodraven is NOT controlling all the ravens, who would have been inhabiting Benjen's ranging bird buddy and now camping out in Mormen to keep an eye on Jon Snow?

 

 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

Thousands of ravens 'peering between the leaves' represent Bloodraven's 1000-plus eyes surveying the scene and descending like so many flying, pointed arrows of the 'raven's teeth.'

That was great Ravenous Reader!  I really enjoyed reading your post; it's given me a different insight to the question of the crows!

[LynnS]

11 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

And, the most burning question of all:  if Bloodraven is NOT controlling all the ravens, who would have been inhabiting Benjen's ranging bird buddy and now camping out in Mormen to keep an eye on Jon Snow?

Hilarious!

[Black Crow]

I would still argue that the matter of the crows working in unison has nothing to do with some powerful individual skinchanging all of them but rather reflects the crows' own abilities. The whole thrust of the OP is that the corvids are not merely handy receptacles for any passing skinchanger, but can and do communicate with each other and act together accordingly. In the matter of the "rescue" of Sam and Gilly all it took was one bird [whether skinchanged or merely in communion] to lead the others.

[Black Crow]

And following on from that I'd also argue that we may be seeing that in both Bran's crow dreams and in the conversations of the Lord Commander's raven, ie; that it isn't simply a matter of Bloodraven talking through a dumb animal, but that there are two characters in there, ie; the dead man in the tree who is looking through the bird's eyes and the bird itself passing on his message but interpreting it in its own and sometimes subversive way.

[LynnS]

6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I would still argue that the matter of the crows working in unison has nothing to do with some powerful individual skinchanging all of them but rather reflects the crows' own abilities. The whole thrust of the OP is that the corvids are not merely handy receptacles for any passing skinchanger, but can and do communicate with each other and act together accordingly. In the matter of the "rescue" of Sam and Gilly all it took was one bird [whether skinchanged or merely in communion] to lead the others.

I'm not so sure it's necessary to skinchange more than one bird either.  Crows naturally flock in their thousands in the winter; roost together in specific trees;  communicate and learn from each other concerning threats  and they can recognize individual human faces.  It only takes one individual to trigger mobbing behavior.  They move together in unison.  Which brings me to Coldhands.  He seems to be followed or preceded by the flock and listens to them communicating.  He identifies that there are "foes" nearby and then leaves to dispatch them.  He controls the Elk but before killing it; Bran observes CH thanking the animal for giving up it's life.   It seems to me that CH is 'part' of the flock  and the one leading them or directing them.  It's also curious that the CotF have hands that are birdlike, like crow's feet.

ETA:  Is it out of the question that one or more CotF are present in the crows and not just as former passengers?  It seems to me that the wights outside of BR's cave serve two purposes:

1) to keep Bran from leaving BR's cave

2) to stop anyone from entering the cave; including WW?

I don't recall CH actually being specifically attacked by the wight; not being a living thing himself. It seems to me that Leaf and Co could dispatch the wights easily if they desired.  That there are also crows present in the cave which is odd behavior for a crow.    

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

13 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I didn't intend for my comment to seem overly critical of Martin... My comment was really meant more as a criticism of the way SSMs are used in discussion, as opposed to a criticism of Martin himself.

Likewise... I didn't intent for my comment to seem overly critical of your comment.  Sorry if it came across that way - I really meant to be agreeing with you.  I just feel a need to clarify the "no gods" reference every now and then.  

7 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I would still argue that the matter of the crows working in unison has nothing to do with some powerful individual skinchanging all of them but rather reflects the crows' own abilities.

I think this is a good direction. Though I'd be inclined to wonder more about the relationship between the crows and the weirwoods, specifically. Seems odd to me that Bloodraven would confirm that all the crows have singers in them, given that the singers themselves are extraordinarily long-lived... and so far as we know, the ravens are just ordinary birds.  How long does a raven live, anyway?  Surely not so long as the singers themselves?  And yet we have this exchange here:

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"Someone else was in the raven," he told Lord Brynden, once he had returned to his own skin. "Some girl. I felt her."

"A woman, of those who sing the song of earth," his teacher said. "Long dead, yet a part of her remains, just as a part of you would remain in Summer if your boy's flesh were to die upon the morrow. A shadow on the soul. She will not harm you."

"Do all the birds have singers in them?"

"All," Lord Brynden said.

The analogy to Bran's connection with Summer suggests that this particular raven was the familiar of a specific singer. But that singer is "long dead." And ravens live (hold on... consulting ye olde Google)... uh, wow, possibly 70 years in captivity. Impressive. Still... Leaf went on a 200 year walkabout, before deciding to head home for a nap. And what are the chances that "all" the birds lost singer-companions who died within the past 70 years?  Or are Westerosi ravens particularly long-lived?  

Hmm. Questions, questions. 

The idea I sort of like, and that I was trying to work my way toward, is that the ravens operate as an extension of the weirwoods... in the sense that both are receptacles of a sort for those who sing the song of earth, after death. Jojen doesn't mention ravens, but I'm wondering if they don't fit into this process somewhere:

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"A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies," said Jojen. "The man who never reads lives only one. The singers of the forest had no books. No ink, no parchment, no written language. Instead they had the trees, and the weirwoods above all. When they died, they went into the wood, into leaf and limb and root, and the trees remembered. All their songs and spells, their histories and prayers, everything they knew about this world. Maesters will tell you that the weirwoods are sacred to the old gods. The singers believe they are the old gods. When singers die they become part of that godhood."

 

Just typing "out loud" now, and tossing ideas out there. So here's one more seemingly random question... Do we know of any female greenseers?  It's interesting to me that Bran encounters a woman singer in the raven... and that Jojen speaks of males in that passage I just quoted.  (Probably nothing. Male pronouns are the default in these books. Just made me wonder.)

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

On 9/7/2016 at 9:30 PM, PrettyPig said:

A bit on ravens....

Super post, there @PrettyPig.  Meant to tell you that.  Love the discussion of the Hebrew.

(I need a "like" button...)

[Matthew.]

9 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I would still argue that the matter of the crows working in unison has nothing to do with some powerful individual skinchanging all of them but rather reflects the crows' own abilities. The whole thrust of the OP is that the corvids are not merely handy receptacles for any passing skinchanger, but can and do communicate with each other and act together accordingly. In the matter of the "rescue" of Sam and Gilly all it took was one bird [whether skinchanged or merely in communion] to lead the others.

Perhaps, but we might reasonably assume that the murder of crows wasn't stricken by a sudden sense of altruism, and that the 'order' to intervene on Sam and Gilly's behalf came from someone other than one of the crows.

I made the Varamyr comparison earlier, because that's the template for how I imagine it works--Varamyr isn't literally "in" his animals all the time, but because of the bond they can act as an extension of his will in battle, with thoughts flowing freely between them all, especially between Varamyr and the wolves. I suspect the wight horde is directed in a similar fashion.

I'm with Flagons in that I lean towards reading Coldhands as the one that's bonded with the ravens, and since he was the one riding to save Sam and Gilly, I assumed that the organized attack of the ravens was a part of the intervention he provided before he was able to arrive in person. If I'm not mistaken, it can also be inferred that he uses information passed to him by the ravens to deal with the mutineers from Craster's Keep.

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

I made the Varamyr comparison earlier, because that's the template for how I imagine it works--Varamyr isn't literally "in" his animals all the time, but because of the bond they can act as an extension of his will in battle, with thoughts flowing freely between them all, especially between Varamyr and the wolves. I suspect the wight horde is directed in a similar fashion.

I like this.

2 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

Perhaps, but we might reasonably assume that the murder of crows wasn't stricken by a sudden sense of altruism, and that the 'order' to intervene on Sam and Gilly's behalf came from someone other than one of the crows.

I made the Varamyr comparison earlier, because that's the template for how I imagine it works--Varamyr isn't literally "in" his animals all the time, but because of the bond they can act as an extension of his will in battle, with thoughts flowing freely between them all, especially between Varamyr and the wolves. I suspect the wight horde is directed in a similar fashion.

I'm with Flagons in that I lean towards reading Coldhands as the one that's bonded with the ravens, and since he was the one riding to save Sam and Gilly, I assumed that the organized attack of the ravens was a part of the intervention he provided before he was able to arrive in person. If I'm not mistaken, it can also be inferred that he uses information passed to him by the ravens to deal with the mutineers from Craster's Keep.

That's how I read it as well.

[Black Crow]

Yes, I like the notion of Coldhands actually being tied in to the ravens or the crows rather than simply being able to speak crow and that once again moves forward the argument that the birds are integral to the story rather as the direwolves are and that they may have sort of symbiotic relationship with the weirwoods - but notwithstanding still retain their individuality.

As I said to Brad Stark the business of all the birds having singers inside presents problems on the longevity front, but something I'd suggest is that those shadows on the birds' souls are not singers or or even greenseers sitting there actively controlling them, but may be the implanted link by which they can communicate with the trees..

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Me too.

[wolfmaid7]

On 9/8/2016 at 2:26 PM, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

I agree that this often seems to be true. But in his defense, he's written a hell of a lot of content for these books at this point - so if we go looking for anything in these books we're likely to find it. For any statement Martin's made in an interview, there's likely a "counterexample" available in the text. 

In this particular case, what Martin has said about "gods" is often misconstrued anyway.  I've frequently seen the claim made that GRRM has said "there will be no gods" appearing in his story - or something to that effect.  And in fact, what he said was this:

That's the core statement, in bold - and it's about as suggestive and ambiguous as any Heretic could want it to be.  (Full interview here.)  

And as you point out, Matthew - we've already seen quite a few people in these books performing "godlike" acts of supernatural power. Furthermore, Martin has stated for the record that the magic quotient will rise with each published volume. So while he's ruled out any deus ex machina plot resolutions - I don't think the mass skinchanging of a flock of birds is out of bounds.  In fact, we may have already seen it.

 

Exactly,we got Skinchangers masquarding as gods....Ohhhh what a dangerous path we tread.Omniscient-ish,omnipresent-ish and omnipotent-ish.And people praying to you to....Bless my marriage,bless my children,banish my enemies etc.If you don't have a strong core and eyes on the horizon one can lose themselves in it all.

On 9/8/2016 at 4:37 PM, aDanceWithFlagons said:

Yep. In a not so subtle way. 

He rose and dressed in darkness, as Mormont’s raven muttered across the room. “Corn,” the bird said, and, “King,” and, “Snow, Jon Snow, Jon Snow.” That was queer. The bird had never said his full name before, as best Jon could recall.

 

Corn King, Jon Snow. 

 

A raven amongst 'crows' at the Wall. A 'crow' amongst ravens in the Cave.

Ohhh yeah this is definitely a part of Jon's arch and i love the way you put it.

On 9/8/2016 at 11:34 PM, Black Crow said:

I would still argue that the matter of the crows working in unison has nothing to do with some powerful individual skinchanging all of them but rather reflects the crows' own abilities. The whole thrust of the OP is that the corvids are not merely handy receptacles for any passing skinchanger, but can and do communicate with each other and act together accordingly. In the matter of the "rescue" of Sam and Gilly all it took was one bird [whether skinchanged or merely in communion] to lead the others.

I think it does BC but it doesn't exclude what you are saying either. The only reason why the crows in the caves could be ridden is because they've had riders in them and still do.Because of that they have become "self aware" . Bran tried and tried to skinchange until he was "allowed" to by one of the crows.These are no mere crows they are those who have already become more.

So i do think CHs skinchanged them because they allowed themselves to be ridden to be of one thought and purpose. 

[Brad Stark]

I reread a few parts, and the hearesy thread on Moremont's raven, and came away with the opinion the raven doesn't actually like or want corn.  The passage about this Raven being unusual for liking corn was meant as a hint the opposite is true - the raven's food preference is not unusual and there is a different reason he is saying the word "corn".