Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Black Crow

Heresy 191 The Crows

Recommended Posts

I should probably reread, rather than asking here, but is it possible the raven is saying the word "horn" and not "corn"?  1 horn blast means rangers, 2 means wildlings, 3 for Others.  Could the number of times "horn" is said refer to the same?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

I reread a few parts, and the hearesy thread on Moremont's raven, and came away with the opinion the raven doesn't actually like or want corn.  The passage about this Raven being unusual for liking corn was meant as a hint the opposite is true - the raven's food preference is not unusual and there is a different reason he is saying the word "corn".

It's certainly made pretty obvious that the bird prefers bacon,

Corn and King are very explicitly linked, which is why its well to be wary of the the bird proclaiming him King Jon Targaryen as some fondly  believe; instead its the Corn King.

Mind you, its also worth bearing in mind that Bran was taking corn to the crows at the top of the tower.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

I should probably reread, rather than asking here, but is it possible the raven is saying the word "horn" and not "corn"?  1 horn blast means rangers, 2 means wildlings, 3 for Others.  Could the number of times "horn" is said refer to the same?

Nah, definitely corn.

 

As I just said above you also need to bear in mind the Bran connection, bringing the corn to the crows

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the raven thinks 'corn' means food in general, not just grain.  He says 'corn' when someone is about to die and become food for crows and ravens.  We even have a book titled "A Feast for Crows".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/9/2016 at 9:31 AM, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

Likewise... I didn't intent for my comment to seem overly critical of your comment.  Sorry if it came across that way - I really meant to be agreeing with you.  I just feel a need to clarify the "no gods" reference every now and then. :D 

I think this is a good direction. Though I'd be inclined to wonder more about the relationship between the crows and the weirwoods, specifically. Seems odd to me that Bloodraven would confirm that all the crows have singers in them, given that the singers themselves are extraordinarily long-lived... and so far as we know, the ravens are just ordinary birds.  How long does a raven live, anyway?  Surely not so long as the singers themselves?  And yet we have this exchange here:

The analogy to Bran's connection with Summer suggests that this particular raven was the familiar of a specific singer. But that singer is "long dead." And ravens live (hold on... consulting ye olde Google)... uh, wow, possibly 70 years in captivity. Impressive. Still... Leaf went on a 200 year walkabout, before deciding to head home for a nap. And what are the chances that "all" the birds lost singer-companions who died within the past 70 years?  Or are Westerosi ravens particularly long-lived?  

Hmm. Questions, questions. 

The idea I sort of like, and that I was trying to work my way toward, is that the ravens operate as an extension of the weirwoods... in the sense that both are receptacles of a sort for those who sing the song of earth, after death. Jojen doesn't mention ravens, but I'm wondering if they don't fit into this process somewhere:

 

Just typing "out loud" now, and tossing ideas out there. So here's one more seemingly random question... Do we know of any female greenseers?  It's interesting to me that Bran encounters a woman singer in the raven... and that Jojen speaks of males in that passage I just quoted.  (Probably nothing. Male pronouns are the default in these books. Just made me wonder.)

It has occurred to me that perhaps the ravens are the godhead? If every raven has the shadow of a singer in them, and when the singers die they join the godhead, then doesn't it seem logical that the ravens are the godhead? I agree that the ravens operate as an extension of the weirwoods...almost as if they are the leaves, but if we were to consider them as being the godhead then it would explain why they seem ageless, and how they seem to operate in unison. Coldhands isn't controlling them, but rather he's tapped into the godhead, and maybe it's the godhead that is controlling Coldhands?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

It has occurred to me that perhaps the ravens are the godhead? If every raven has the shadow of a singer in them, and when the singers die they join the godhead, then doesn't it seem logical that the ravens are the godhead? 

A good point, although I'm not so sure its necessarily that explicit. The crows/ravens are a part of it and what takes it beyond the trees as illustrated by the Blackwood arms. I don't think, in other words, its necessary to draw a definite distinction.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey there everyone, been meaning to pop into these threads for a while now after being recommended by @Feather Crystal but haven't had the time to catch up on reading everything so I figure this is the perfect time to get involved. I have some thoughts on timelines when we get around to that essay but in the mean time I'll stick to the current thread.

On 9/7/2016 at 1:36 AM, Black Crow said:

In closing, a final point concerns the white ravens who announce Winter and seemingly don’t get on with their black cousins. This I think may hark back to the business of Bran naming his direwolf Summer; that achieving a balance between Ice and Fire requires both a King of Winter and a Summer King with their respective direwolves and ravens.

I tend to agree with this but is this an idea you've expanded on elsewhere or just something you're kicking around? It's really interesting to me so I'd like to hear more about this if you already have more thoughts on the topic.

As a follow up duality and inversion are big recurring themes throughout the books (as I'm sure most everyone here is aware) but specifically the ravens are dualistically opposed by another white bird: seagulls. They are cited as sounding oddly human on a couple occasions, are carrion that peck out men's eyes, and show up for the Kingsmoot -- just as Mormont's Raven is there to herald Jon, the current favorite for future king as mentioned upthread. The first mention of gull drops the hidden meaning early on.

Quote

A gull wheeled overhead as she made her way down the hill toward Flea Bottom. Arya glanced at it thoughtfully, but it was well beyond the reach of her stick. It made her think of the sea. -Arya V, AGOT

Ravens are associated with the weirwoods that reach into the earth and gulls are associated with the sea. The sea could be seen as the plains of the water just as the Dothraki plains are considered a sea of the earth.

 

On 9/7/2016 at 11:04 AM, LynnS said:

The line of crones suggests the passage of time down through the generations and a reverence for Dany that could imply that she is the original mother of 'mountains'.   She is also the daughter of death (the maiden), the bride of fire/mother of dragons (the mother) and the slayer of lies (the crone).

This could actually point to Dany as the Prince who is Promised; Light-bringer but not in the sense that we imagine it so far.

This is slightly off topic but I wanted to put forth an idea I was kicking around since you mentioned this. I don't have much evidence yet but I'd like to see what y'all think. Littlefinger tells Sansa that Westeros survived the War of the Five Kings but wonders if it will weather the Three Queens and Sansa is confused as to whom he refers. Well we have three queens in the Maiden, Mother, and Crone. Sansa is the Maiden, Daenerys the Mother, and Cersei the Crone. Not to say I disagree with your assessment, LynnS, quite the contrary. I definitely think you hit the nail on the head that Dany holds all three titles in her personal storyline. But in the context of the end game of Westeros they will each be associated with only one aspect as people are often reduced when they are figureheads of large groups/movements.

It's pretty straight forward: Sansa's maidenhood holds the keys to Winterfell and the North. Dany is the Mother of Dragons. Cersei  is the Crone, about to lose her last children as prophesied and her status of beauty destroyed during the Walk of Shame.

 

12 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I think it does BC but it doesn't exclude what you are saying either. The only reason why the crows in the caves could be ridden is because they've had riders in them and still do.Because of that they have become "self aware" . Bran tried and tried to skinchange until he was "allowed" to by one of the crows.These are no mere crows they are those who have already become more.

I definitely agree with this and I think we've actually seen a person willingly do this giving up of control to greenseers temporarily. Specifically, everyone's favorite coward, Samwell Tarly. Early in ASOS, fleeing from the Fist of the First Men, the first words of his POV are:

Quote

Sobbing, Sam took another step. This is the last one, the very last, I can't go on, I can't. But his feet moved again. One and then the other. They took a step, and then another, and he thought, They're not my feet, they're someone else's, someone else is walking, it can't be me. -Samwell I, ASOS

Now the reader thinks it's just that he's hit the limit of his endurance yet he continues moving because of survival instinct. I think there's more to it than that. First off he trips on a root, bites his tongue filling his mouth with blood (just as Bran tastes when being sacrificed to in ADWD), lays down on the ground and after grabbing a root repeats how he wants to just lay there -- just as Hodor curls up in a corner when Bran wargs him. Despite being a Southron Lordling in the North, Sam pleas to the Old Gods when taking his vows and in this very chapter beseeches them again.

Quote

This was where the old gods ruled, the nameless gods of the trees and the wolves and the snows. "Mercy," he whispered then, to whatever might be listening, old gods or new, or demons too, "oh, mercy, mercy me, mercy me." -Samwell I, ASOS

Obviously the idea of godhood not being literal but the actions of greenseers has been discussed already so no need to get into that. Another example of duality are demons, being simply another god, one that has values so foreign as to invite classic Psychological Otherization. When on the boat Cinnamon Wind in AFFC, Xhondo Dhoru claims the Seven must be demons for vilifying sex. This seems a bit odd as the Seven are generally seen as pretty stand up gods. Hell, they're pretty merciful compared to some of the other gods out there. Conversely most people would consider the Drowned God a demon for the practice of drowning, raping, pillaging, and all of the acts typical of a violent sea-faring culture. But to the Ironborn, he is a god to be worshiped. It's all just a matter of your cultural lens.

Back to Sam though: he is interesting because he is the only POV willing to accept another's gods as his own. In his desperation he invokes literally anyone listening for aid and he gets it in his most dire moment as Small Paul is brutally killed by an Other.

Quote

Do it now. Stop crying and fight, you baby. Fight, craven. It was his father he heard, it was Alliser Thorne, it was his brother Dickon and the boy Rast. Craven, craven, craven. He giggled hysterically, wondering if they would make a wight of him, a huge fat white wight always tripping over its own dead feet. Do it, Sam. Was that Jon, now? Jon was dead. You can do it, you can, just do it. And then he was stumbling forward, falling more than running, really, closing his eyes and shoving the dagger blindly out before him with both hands. -Samwell I, ASOS

Jon wasn't actually dead but I think it's a forshadowing of future events, that he will die and help from the grave, similar to how Bloodraven is "dead". Meaning Jon may die again after being revived (I assume he will come back), a la Beric. I assume with help from Bran, Jon and company will reach through time to help Sam slay an Other here. Also of note is that Sam closes his eyes and stabs blindly. Blinding yourself of course is a tried and true method of opening your third eye and accessing warging/greenseer abilities. Hope that's heretical enough for you folks :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Cowboy Dan said:

Hey there everyone, been meaning to pop into these threads for a while now after being recommended by @Feather Crystal but haven't had the time to catch up on reading everything so I figure this is the perfect time to get involved. I have some thoughts on timelines when we get around to that essay but in the mean time I'll stick to the current thread.

 

Welcome to Heresy. There's some good thoughts in there so forgive me if I take my time in responding to them individually, although I will say that the Summer King/Winter King is something that's been around in Heresy for a long time and is also known by the term Corn King, which has been touched on above.

The seagulls are an interesting angle we haven't touched upon before and given the stuff about the seas and what's in them which have been dancing around the periphery of the story, I can see something there, although I still see them as secondary to what's beyond the Wall.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Cowboy Dan said:

Jon wasn't actually dead but I think it's a forshadowing of future events, that he will die and help from the grave, similar to how Bloodraven is "dead". Meaning Jon may die again after being revived (I assume he will come back), a la Beric. I assume with help from Bran, Jon and company will reach through time to help Sam slay an Other here. Also of note is that Sam closes his eyes and stabs blindly. Blinding yourself of course is a tried and true method of opening your third eye and accessing warging/greenseer abilities. Hope that's heretical enough for you folks :D

Thanks Cowboy Dan!  Very interesting ideas about Sam.  I hadn't thought of it before. The mouth filling with blood is something that also comes up with Tyrion and think there must be some significance to it.

Getting back to the white ravens and black ravens fighting; it calls to mind Patchface:  Beneath the sea, the crows are white as snow.

Is he talking about the White Walkers, calling them crows and connecting them to Jon Snow?  Was Crastor the son of a crow?    I'm reminded of Waymar Royce; the black brothers and the white brothers in combat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
56 minutes ago, Cowboy Dan said:

Hope that's heretical enough for you folks :D

Yeah, I'd say so.  You hit a few key words early - "duality," "inversion" - then tossed in a plug for time-travel, to boot. These things are somewhat en vogue, lately, among heretics. I expect you'll fit right in.

Welcome to Heresy!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Cowboy Dan said:

.

I definitely agree with this and I think we've actually seen a person willingly do this giving up of control to greenseers temporarily. Specifically, everyone's favorite coward, Samwell Tarly. Early in ASOS, fleeing from the Fist of the First Men, the first words of his POV are:

Now the reader thinks it's just that he's hit the limit of his endurance yet he continues moving because of survival instinct. I think there's more to it than that. First off he trips on a root, bites his tongue filling his mouth with blood (just as Bran tastes when being sacrificed to in ADWD), lays down on the ground and after grabbing a root repeats how he wants to just lay there -- just as Hodor curls up in a corner when Bran wargs him. Despite being a Southron Lordling in the North, Sam pleas to the Old Gods when taking his vows and in this very chapter beseeches them again.

Obviously the idea of godhood not being literal but the actions of greenseers has been discussed already so no need to get into that. Another example of duality are demons, being simply another god, one that has values so foreign as to invite classic Psychological Otherization. When on the boat Cinnamon Wind in AFFC, Xhondo Dhoru claims the Seven must be demons for vilifying sex. This seems a bit odd as the Seven are generally seen as pretty stand up gods. Hell, they're pretty merciful compared to some of the other gods out there. Conversely most people would consider the Drowned God a demon for the practice of drowning, raping, pillaging, and all of the acts typical of a violent sea-faring culture. But to the Ironborn, he is a god to be worshiped. It's all just a matter of your cultural lens.

 

Welcome to Heresy Cowboy Dan:D

Totally agree with this,and i'm actually putting out an essay sometime in the project that delves into that whole concept of "god" in ASOIAF and what it means with regards to those beings that...Let's face it technically for what we think defines divinity they are.Save this post and repost it there.

But yeah i do think that the Crows in BR's cave have a say in who the let ride them i'm a firm believer in the power truly laying with the familliars in the relationship and not the regular old wolves and crows,though i think the more they are ridden the more "self aware" they become.

I don't think BR's caves are the only one though,i think the IOFs have greenseers AND crows.

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

It has occurred to me that perhaps the ravens are the godhead? If every raven has the shadow of a singer in them, and when the singers die they join the godhead, then doesn't it seem logical that the ravens are the godhead? I agree that the ravens operate as an extension of the weirwoods...almost as if they are the leaves, but if we were to consider them as being the godhead then it would explain why they seem ageless, and how they seem to operate in unison. Coldhands isn't controlling them, but rather he's tapped into the godhead, and maybe it's the godhead that is controlling Coldhands?

This is what i meant when i said BR is the face for the Weirwoods and the 3ec the face for another group.Or to put it another way the Ravens are like the other factions weirwoods.But i love your likening the Ravens to a godhead

This may be a stretch but i'm seeing an overall Morrigan type incarnation.

Sacred tree,Ravens.......Perhaps wolves? Maybe

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Black Crow @LynnS @The Snowfyre Chorus @wolfmaid7

Thanks everyone, y'all know how to make a guy feel welcome! Just a quick aside about me. I'm rather slow but as you can see when I have an idea I tend to drop it all at once with a fair amount of research/supporting text so don't feel in a hurry to respond to everything. If you want to get my thoughts on something, tag or quote me, I'll be sure to respond. Just can't say I always have time to comment on everything that intrigues me, I'm not exaggerating when I say I'm slow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Welcome to Heresy. There's some good thoughts in there so forgive me if I take my time in responding to them individually, although I will say that the Summer King/Winter King is something that's been around in Heresy for a long time and is also known by the term Corn King, which has been touched on above.

The seagulls are an interesting angle we haven't touched upon before and given the stuff about the seas and what's in them which have been dancing around the periphery of the story, I can see something there, although I still see them as secondary to what's beyond the Wall.

If you have any links handy or know which thread number those ideas were mentioned in that would be great. I'm a little intimidated searching 190 threads of Heresy.. where to begin? :dunno:

Honestly I'm not sure what to make of the seagulls as much as the crows/ravens -- other than to show a link in an animistic tradition. I heard free association is a big thing here and I love finding what seem like non sequiturs and other hidden connections even if the importance isn't readily apparent. GRRM seems like a big ol' hippy underneath everything and it's a pretty solid way of showing a similarity between carrion birds in vastly different environments. Probably something there about how we're all connected and the world is one big brother/sisterhood but we're too small/egoistic to recognize or accept it.

Just as a note if you want to search for yourself there are ~19 mentions and most of them are simply as "gull" not "seagull".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, LynnS said:

Thanks Cowboy Dan!  Very interesting ideas about Sam.  I hadn't thought of it before. The mouth filling with blood is something that also comes up with Tyrion and think there must be some significance to it.

There's also a moment when Arya is trapped in a burning building where she tastes blood and curses her assailants, wanting them all dead. IIRC when Bran is in the weirwood there's a pregnant woman who wades in to the black pool in Winterfell and cursing her enemies (note the duality, one surrounded by fire, the other surrounded by water). It's definitely a recurring motif that warrants a follow-up.

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

Getting back to the white ravens and black ravens fighting; it calls to mind Patchface:  Beneath the sea, the crows are white as snow.

Is he talking about the White Walkers, calling them crows and connecting them to Jon Snow?  Was Crastor the son of a crow?    I'm reminded of Waymar Royce; the black brothers and the white brothers in combat.

Sweet catch on Patchface's rhyme! Hadn't even thought of that and I just re-read Davos' POV chapters.

There's a lot of references to the KG having snowy cloaks, described as the white of fresh fallen snow (Barristan's facial hair too, it's his only real identifier as Whitebeard). Jon always wanted to be a KG like his hero Aemon the Dragonknight -- maybe he'll get his wish. Conversely more than one character mentioned Jaime should have taken the black after his kingslaying and not been pardoned by Robert. A fight between Jon and Jaime is something I've been keying in on lately so I think you're on to something in referring to the prologue chapter as a (foreshadowed) conflict between white/black brothers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Totally agree with this,and i'm actually putting out an essay sometime in the project that delves into that whole concept of "god" in ASOIAF and what it means with regards to those beings that...Let's face it technically for what we think defines divinity they are.Save this post and repost it there.

Would love to! I've got quite a few thoughts on that topic myself so I'm earnestly looking forward to it. :) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Cowboy Dan said:

If you have any links handy or know which thread number those ideas were mentioned in that would be great. I'm a little intimidated searching 190 threads of Heresy.. where to begin? :dunno:

 

The short answer is that its been a recurring theme pretty well all the way through Heresy but we'll be happy to look at it again afresh. 

To a degree the basic concept is a Celtic one of the duality of the seasons and there's a pretty quick and dirty summary of it in the backstory to the Tattered Prince. I'm dashing to work now but if nobody else has picked it up by evening my time - I'm six hours ahead of Texas, I'll set it out some more.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Black Crow said:

there's a pretty quick and dirty summary of it in the backstory to the Tattered Prince. I'm dashing to work now but if nobody else has picked it up by evening my time - I'm six hours ahead of Texas, I'll set it out some more.

Actually, the background summary comes from Illyrio Mopatis, as he and Tyrion dine at his manse in Pentos.  Here's that bit:

Quote

 

"What one king does, another may undo. In Pentos we have a prince, my friend. He presides at ball, and feast and rides about the city in a palanquin of ivory and gold. Three heralds go before him with the golden scales of trade, the iron sword of war, and the silver scourge of justice. On the first day of each new year he must deflower the maid of the fields and the maid of the seas." Illyrio leaned forward, elbows on the table. "Yet should a crop fail or a war be lost, we cut his throat to appease the gods and choose a new prince from amongst the forty families."  (5.01 - TYRION)

"Remind me never to become the Prince of Pentos."

"Are your Seven Kingdoms so different? There is no peace in Westeros, no justice, no faith... and soon enough, no food. When men are starving and sick of fear, they look for a savior."  

 

The Tattered Prince does tie in. Thirty years ago, he was chosen by Pentos - but instead of serving, he fled to the Disputed Lands and became a sellsword:

Quote

The Windblown went back thirty years, and had known but one commander, the soft-spoken, sad-eyed Pentoshi nobleman called the Tattered Prince. His hair and mail were silver-grey, but his ragged cloak was made of twists of cloth of many colors, blue and grey and purple, red and gold and green, magenta and vermilion and cerulean, all faded by the sun. When the Tattered Prince was three-and-twenty, as Dick Straw told the story, the magisters of Pentos had chosen him to be their new prince, hours after beheading their old prince. Instead he'd buckled on a sword, mounted his favorite horse, and fled to the Disputed Lands, never to return. He had ridden with the Second Sons, the Iron Shields, and the Maiden's Men, then joined with five brothers-in-arms to form the Windblown. Of those six founders, only he survived.  (5.25 - THE WINDBLOWN)

Evidently, he'd like to go back to Pentos - as conqueror, rather than sacrifice.

All in all, a rather direct nod by GRRM to certain pagan and Celtic traditions surrounding May Day - though perhaps, more specifically, to the classic horror genre retelling featured in The Wicker Man.  Though I'm sure there are folks around here who have more topical information and connections at their finger tips - including Black Crow, @wolfmaid7, @Frey family reunion, and perhaps others.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okaaay...

The gist of it is that the Corn King is one version of the Celtic belief in the duality of the two major seasons; Summer and Winter. Spring and Autumn are just the doors between them and the two are actually more equally balanced than might at first appear, for if Winter can be bitterly cold, Summer can be hot and arid - or worse pestilential. Both can bring starvation because remember that in Summer you're living off last year's harvest. Paradoxically Winter can also be a season of relative plenty and is ushered in by the harvest festival and at its centre is the great solstice feast. While Winter is the season of death that death also represents a cleansing of the land in readiness for the Spring awakening that ushers in the Summer.

In order to maintain this vital cycle of life, death and rebirth, it is necessary to have a Summer King and a Winter King, rather as described by Snowfyre above - and necessary for each to be put into the ground in due time in order to make way for his successor.

In GRRM's case Bran is obviously the Summer King [why do you think he named his direwolf?] and has very literally been put into the ground to prepare for the Spring and the Summer to come. John then with his white winter wolf named for death has been [unwittingly] slain to be King of Winter.

Something which occurs to me in writing this is that if the two already represent the necessary balance then the intervention of the dragons is what is likely to upset it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On September 8, 2016 at 7:11 PM, aDanceWithFlagons said:

My last post was begun earlier so now it's out of place. Meant to follow up BC's comment last page.

While the 'murder' of ravens could be Bloodraven, I think they have more to do with Coldhands himself. I've likened Coldhands to a raven in a man's body. He has the black eyes which are compared to a raven's eyes. He understands the quorks. He travels and works with ravens. Dont know exactly what Coldhands is, or how he found his current situation, but when you think about the ravens in the cave which have a little something left over from the cotf, it seems likely that this shadow of a soul is made possible through the weirwoods. How else could all the ravens have shadows of Singers inside them unless there is some transference through the weirwoods? And this line of thinking leads me to see Coldhands as a similar creature. Some mix of crow and weirwood and man and possibly cotf too. 

And on a similar note... The corvids seem to have some special bond with the singers and trees. I've entertained the idea that the ravens and crows were the first groups to have a symbiotic relationship with the weirwoods. The cotf followed after.

I agree with the idea that Coldhands is an undead skinchanger.  I actually waded into a thread about Mance Rayder's raven winged helm that he dons in preparation for his last big surge to breach the Wall in ASOS.  In trying to answer the question as to the significance of the helm, I brought up some other interesting theories that I've read elsewhere concerning Mance and his possible origin.  Ultimately it occurred to me that there is at least the possibility that Brynden Rivers, Coldhands, and Mance may all have a Blackwood family connection.

Basically the first theory concerns Mance's relationship with the former Lord Commander before Mormont, who was probably the Lord Commander who was in charge during the events of the False Spring.  We know that a Lord Qorgyle was this former Lord Commander.  In ASOS we learn that House Qorglye's sigil is a red background with three black scorpions.  We know that Qorgyle took a trip to Winterfell when Jon was a child.  During this trip Qorgyle brought Mance Rayder with him. 

Mance's decision to leave the Wall came when his black cloak was patched with three red patches.  This would appear close to the inverse of House Qorgyle's sigil.  And of course as we learned, an inverse sigil is often the sigil of a House with a bastard origin (i.e. Blackfyre). 

It wouldn't surprise me if Lord Qorgyle may have fathered a bastard from a Wildling on the Wall.  (it would not suprise me if a number of members of the NIght's Watch have fathered bastards on wildlings, the description of Rattleshirt and Cotter Pyke are awfully similar for instance)  Perhaps this is why Lord Commander Qorgyle brings young Mance with him when he travels to Winterfell.  Mance may have taken pride in his cloak as an inverse of his father's former House, and the decision to strip that cloak away is what finally drove him from the Wall.

Now this begs the question, if Mance is Qorgyle son, why the raven winged helmet?  For reasons I won't go into now, I think that House Blackwood has been fostering a skinchanging gene through their daughters.  In fact it was probably through a female Blackwood member that Brynden inherited his impressive skinchanging abilities.  So I then looked to see if there was any evidence, no matter how slight, that might connect House Qorglye to House Blackwood.  And I did find one, albeit a very slim piece of evidence. 

We know that Oberyn Martell was fostered at House Qorgyle.  Perhaps evidence that House Martell may have shared some family relation with House Qorgyle.  The current Lord of House Qorgyle (who may be a brother or uncle to the former Lord Commander Qorgyle) is Quentyn Qorgyle.  Since we have a Quentyn Martell this also makes me think that there is a close family tie to House Martell and House Qorgyle, perhaps Doran an Oberyn's father. 

There is only one other Quentyn mentioned in any of the books.  He is mentioned in the Hedge Knight, Quentyn Blackwood.  He was the Lord of House Blackwood who was murdered by a Bracken shortly before the time of the Mystery Knight.  This made me wonder, if Lord Quentyn Qorgyle received his name from Quentyn Blackwood, perhaps a maternal grandfather.  Then if Lord Commander Qorgyle is Quentyn's brother, he too may have had a Blackwood mother.

As stated, Coldhands has black eyes (not blue-grey which was ignored by those supporting the Benjen as Coldhands theory).  Both the Blackwoods and the salty Dornish have been described as having black eyes.  If any of this is possible, this could explain why we have another powerful skinchanger attuned to ravens north of the Wall.  Both Brynden Rivers and former Lord Commander Qorgyle could have Blackwood mothers, whom they inherited their abilities from.  Then if Lord Commander Qorgyle had fathered Mance, and if Lord Commander Qorgyle had a Blackwood mom, that would in turn may explain a Blackwood family heirloom, in Mance's possession, the raven winged helmet.

It might also mean interestingly enough that there is a family connection between Bloodraven, Coldhands, and Mance...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

 

Something which occurs to me in writing this is that if the two already represent the necessary balance then the intervention of the dragons is what is likely to upset it.

I've read that in the Glastonbury Beltane festival there is a ceremonial battle between the red dragon of summer and the white dragon of winter.  The red dragon and the white dragon also featuring prominently in Merlin's origin,  and the Mabinogion.  I know that GRRM's inspiration for the Wall came during a visit to Hadrian's Wall, I also wonder if GRRM took in a Beltane festival in Glastonbury?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×