Can You Forgive Lord Walder Frey?

[The Lord of the Crossing]

I admit, I like Lord Walder.  He's funny, witty, and has a great sense of humor.  I don't want any more Frey casualties.  I forgive Walder Frey for the red wedding.  I don't see it as pure revenge, I think Walder really had no choice.  I can't see Tywin Lannister letting Walder sit this one out in the Neutral corner and then letting the Freys off without severe punishment for their part in Robb Stark's rebellion.   Do you think Walder was right in choosing not to go down with Robb Stark?  Are you willing to forgive Lord Walder?

 

[Nocturne]

2 minutes ago, Lame Lothar Frey said:

I admit, I like Lord Walder.  He's funny, witty, and has a great sense of humor.  I don't want any more Frey casualties.  I forgive Walder Frey for the red wedding.  I don't see it as pure revenge, I think Walder really had no choice.  I can't see Tywin Lannister letting Walder sit this one out in the Neutral corner and then letting the Freys off without severe punishment for their part in Robb Stark's rebellion.   Do you think Walder was right in choosing not to go down with Robb Stark?  Are you willing to forgive Lord Walder?

 

Nope, he swore allegiance to house Tully and betrayed them. 

[Artos Cold]

Hmm........No, fuck 'em. 

[Sullen]

Heh, self-preservation and vindication are valid excuses for what he did, he simply pushed it too far.

Before the Red Wedding, he literally did nothing wrong, except being unpleasant and lecherous. 

[Jon Fossoway]

Forgive him for what? He's a fictional character from a book y'know.

 

[cgrav]

The Red Wedding is set up to be pretty unforgivable. It was much more opportunistic than necessary. He could have swallowed his pride and remained safely with the Tullies, but instead tried to capitalize on Robb's poor judgment and take the Riverlands all for himself. He could or should have known that Tywin was likely to use him and cast him aside after the war as an unreliable turn cloak, and that the more conservative path with the Tullies/Starks would be less risky in the end. 

Not only does Walder betray Robb and his own Lord Hoster, he selfishly ties his house's fate to the Lannisters for what he should know are only short term gains.

[Sullen]

1 minute ago, cgrav said:

The Red Wedding is set up to be pretty unforgivable. It was much more opportunistic than necessary. He could have swallowed his pride and remained safely with the Tullies, but instead tried to capitalize on Robb's poor judgment and take the Riverlands all for himself. He could or should have known that Tywin was likely to use him and cast him aside after the war as an unreliable turn cloak, and that the more conservative path with the Tullies/Starks would be less risky in the end. 

Not only does Walder betray Robb and his own Lord Hoster, he selfishly ties his house's fate to the Lannisters for what he should know are only short term gains.

Stay with the Tullies and the King in the North after he's been repeatedly shit on and backstabbed? Not likely, if you want your vassals to be loyal, you need to treat them well, and Walder is pretty much the definition of a vassal mistreated by both his lieges.

How was his betrayal of the Starks at the profit of the Lannisters anything short-term from his point of view? As far as everyone knows, he just got Riverrun for his service, the Northern rebels have been defeated, Stannis is stuck helpless in the North, and the Lannister-Tyrell alliance is as solid as possible. It only looks like short-term gain if you consider the turmoil that is about to happen that couldn't have been expected (Magic Ironborn laying waste to the Reach, ice zombies coming from beyond the Wall, magic wolf horde rampaging the countryside, and freaking Targaryens coming out of nowhere).

From a down-to-earth point of view, the Freys are safe, the series's magic elements are what is going to create great imbalance and fuck them up.

[Nocturne]

38 minutes ago, Sullen said:

Stay with the Tullies and the King in the North after he's been repeatedly shit on and backstabbed? Not likely, if you want your vassals to be loyal, you need to treat them well, and Walder is pretty much the definition of a vassal mistreated by both his lieges.

How was his betrayal of the Starks at the profit of the Lannisters anything short-term from his point of view? As far as everyone knows, he just got Riverrun for his service, the Northern rebels have been defeated, Stannis is stuck helpless in the North, and the Lannister-Tyrell alliance is as solid as possible. It only looks like short-term gain if you consider the turmoil that is about to happen that couldn't have been expected (Magic Ironborn laying waste to the Reach, ice zombies coming from beyond the Wall, magic wolf horde rampaging the countryside, and freaking Targaryens coming out of nowhere).

From a down-to-earth point of view, the Freys are safe, the series's magic elements are what is going to create great imbalance and fuck them up.

He got shit on year after year, because he was a cunt that didn't respect his duties to his liege lord. His nickname is "The late Walder Frey". The guy is a grade a cunt, that deserves the worst that's coming to him.

[cgrav]

"Got" Riverrun, meaning he had to take and keep it. It wasn't Tywin's to give to Walder, hence the need for a siege. 

They Freys got shit on by Robb, sure, but what's Tywin's reputation in that regard? It's well known he has no patience for ambition in among his vassals. 

plus from a purely strategic perspective, it's just terrible idea to make enemies on so many sides. He will never have the North's friendship again and sieged his lord protector to the west and, alienating the Vale to his east in the same stroke.

I'm not saying Walder should have rolled over for Robb, but he went well beyond what was necessary to preserve his pride and over-leveraged an opportunity.

[Sullen]

12 minutes ago, Nocturne said:

He got shit on year after year, because he was a cunt that didn't respect his duties to his liege lord. His nickname is "The late Walder Frey". The guy is a grade a cunt, that deserves the worst that's coming to him.

He did show up on the battlefield, but late. 

Frey is an extremely old man, and has more levy than any other River lord, it's perfectly reasonable to assume that he did have the intentions to join Hoster, but couldn't make it in time. Holding it over his head forever and mocking him behind his back his whole life only serves to make him disloyal.

5 minutes ago, cgrav said:

"Got" Riverrun, meaning he had to take and keep it. It wasn't Tywin's to give to Walder, hence the need for a siege. 

They Freys got shit on by Robb, sure, but what's Tywin's reputation in that regard? It's well known he has no patience for ambition in among his vassals. 

plus from a purely strategic perspective, it's just terrible idea to make enemies on so many sides. He will never have the North's friendship again and sieged his lord protector to the west and, alienating the Vale to his east in the same stroke.

I'm not saying Walder should have rolled over for Robb, but he went well beyond what was necessary to preserve his pride and over-leveraged an opportunity.

He was allowed by the Crown to keep it, by decree of King Tommen.

Tywin is known to be extremely generous to his allies, forgiving to his enemies should they be repentant, absolutely ruthless should you wrong him too much.

He was allied with the North in the form of House Bolton, that's not "never having the North on his side ever again".

He proved his loyalty to the West with the Red Wedding, they don't seem to be especially holding it against him.

The Vale doesn't really give a damn, he never really had any allies there, and it's not like it was going to change.

He was the most powerful lord in the Riverlands, bar House Tully itself, and now that is doubly true considering his House also hold Riverrun and its surrounding lands, and that Amerei is technically the Lady of Darry now that Lancel has abandoned it. That's three major lordships for House Frey.

If not for the torrent of shit coming in the way of Westeros, he would have secured a shitload of power for his House, at the price of the House having a worse name, but it isn't as if the elitist lords of Westeros didn't already look down upon them.

[Universal Sword Donor]

26 minutes ago, cgrav said:

"Got" Riverrun, meaning he had to take and keep it. It wasn't Tywin's to give to Walder, hence the need for a siege. 

They Freys got shit on by Robb, sure, but what's Tywin's reputation in that regard? It's well known he has no patience for ambition in among his vassals. 

plus from a purely strategic perspective, it's just terrible idea to make enemies on so many sides. He will never have the North's friendship again and sieged his lord protector to the west and, alienating the Vale to his east in the same stroke.

I'm not saying Walder should have rolled over for Robb, but he went well beyond what was necessary to preserve his pride and over-leveraged an opportunity.

Frankly all Walder needed to do, if he did indeed want Robb dead, was just withdraw his forces and do exactly what he did before Robb promised to marry a daughter. IMO the deal Robb should have met any debt or obligation, but if it didn't Walder just had to let Robb's forces wallow around in the RL while Tywin or the Tyrells came around to sweep him up. He'd have been trapped. Instead he got greedy and earned the undying enmity of the most of the RL and the entire North, along with a worse reputation for his house in general.

[dariopatke]

I could. Mayhaps he went too far and could have executed that better, but he was treated like worst man in 7K. Smart kinky old man with sharp tongue, what's not to like,heh?

[The Wolves]

People who keep saying that the Freys were looked down upon needs to read the books and get their facts straight. The Freys are not looked down upon at all. Some of the most pretentious houses like Lannisters, Tully, Royces, Blackwoods and many more great houses have intermarried with this house. 

The Elite does not look down upon House Frey contrary to some posters' beliefs.  

So no I'm not about to forgive House Frey for their petty overreaction. I'm not going to forgive their disgusting self important imagine that drove them to become inhumane monsters. 

Honestly I hope the whole house goes extinct and I'm sure that's where it's leading GRRM have talked way too much about guest right to not extinct them. 

[cgrav]

If there's any lesson from the political machinations in Westeros, it's that securing power means securing enemies. That reality is acknowledged constantly, it could not have been lost on Walder. 

Riverrun satisfies Walder's pride, but what's the real value if has to take and defend on his own? Does Walder seriously think he can rule the Riverlands after allying with the people who've spent a solid year raping and burning the region, and then murdering their Lord's daughter? 

Walder proved no loyalty with the Red Wedding. Tywin doesn't trust turncoats just because they turn to his side. 

And Walder is a fool if he thinks that Bolton can hold the north, let alone be a reliable ally. Walder is a turncoat, he's kidding himself to believe that Roose Bolton will be any better to the Freys than the Starks.

Maybe Walder thought there was some real, permanent advantage, but any advantage was far outweighed by liabilities that he should have been able to see.

[Scorpion92]

I want Freys to destroy each other after Lady Stoneheart kills Lord Walder during Damon Lannister's wedding in Riverrun. That will be perfect. Make them eat each other like rats.

[Sullen]

5 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Frankly all Walder needed to do, if he did indeed want Robb dead, was just withdraw his forces and do exactly what he did before Robb promised to marry a daughter. IMO the deal Robb should have met any debt or obligation, but if it didn't Walder just had to let Robb's forces wallow around in the RL while Tywin or the Tyrells came around to sweep him up. He'd have been trapped. Instead he got greedy and earned the undying enmity of the most of the RL and the entire North, along with a worse reputation for his house in general.

Robb wasn't simply going to laze around until the Lannisters and Tyrells showed up, if he was trapped, he'd most likely attempt storming the Twins, which could bode badly for Walder.

I would have personally tried to drug the food at the marriage, or tried to take the Northmen down as non-lethally as possible.

1 minute ago, The Wolves said:

People who keep saying that the Freys were looked down upon needs to read the books and get their facts straight. The Freys are not looked down upon at all. Some of the most pretentious houses like Lannisters, Tully, Royces, Blackwoods and many more great houses have intermarried with this house. 

The Elite does not look down upon House Frey contrary to some posters' beliefs.  

Considering Walder's constant complains, the fact that Tytos gets widely mocked when he announces the betrothal of Genna to Emmon, the fact that Tywin is royally pissed after the marriage, the fact that whenever a character mentions a Frey as possible bride it's with revulsion, and the fact that Hoster Tully repeatedly and openly snubbed Walder, I think that you're the one who is greatly mistaken. They are looked down to as upstarts despite their power and wealth, more than any other House but House Codd as far as we're shown.

[Sullen]

18 minutes ago, cgrav said:

If there's any lesson from the political machinations in Westeros, it's that securing power means securing enemies. That reality is acknowledged constantly, it could not have been lost on Walder. 

Riverrun satisfies Walder's pride, but what's the real value if has to take and defend on his own? Does Walder seriously think he can rule the Riverlands after allying with the people who've spent a solid year raping and burning the region, and then murdering their Lord's daughter? 

House Frey does not rule the Riverlands, it rules The Twins, Riverrun, and Darry. House Baelish rules the Riverlands, and as far as everyone knows he's in pretty deep with the Crown, and has an alliance to the Vale, add to that that several hostages have been taken from the Riverlords, and you've got a pretty stable region.

18 minutes ago, cgrav said:

Walder proved no loyalty with the Red Wedding. Tywin doesn't trust turncoats just because they turn to his side. 

Tywin needs Baelish and Frey to keep the Riverlands under control, he's not going to let rebellion run amok there, House Lannister is bound to be married to House Frey three times over (Daven, Lancel, Genna), he has stakes in the future of House Frey.

18 minutes ago, cgrav said:

And Walder is a fool if he thinks that Bolton can hold the north, let alone be a reliable ally. Walder is a turncoat, he's kidding himself to believe that Roose Bolton will be any better to the Freys than the Starks.

Considering Bolton and Frey are partners in crime, yes, they are pretty much tied to other another for better or for worst. Bolton's grasp on the North is not as weak as you believe either, with Tywin in power, they would not be left to face rebellion alone.

18 minutes ago, cgrav said:

Maybe Walder thought there was some real, permanent advantage, but any advantage was far outweighed by liabilities that he should have been able to see.

There were great permanent advantages as long as you suppose Tywin would stay alive to keep the peace and that no great cataclysm would hit Westeros. It only looks terrible in hindsight after Tywin got murdered by his son and that Cersei took the reigns, because we know that great instability is on its way due to ice zombies going South and Targaryens showing up out of nowhere, and because we know there's a massive magical wolf horde around with a grudge for House Frey. And because of Cersei botching up the Tyrell alliance, and the magic pirate Captain about to ravage the Reach as well.

From the point of view of a reasonable person who doesn't believe in magic, or has knowledge of the fact the Tywin is about to die, House Frey came out of it pretty damn strong in the long run.

[The Wolves]

6 minutes ago, Sullen said:

 

Considering Walder's constant complains, the fact that Tytos gets widely mocked when he announces the betrothal of Genna to Emmon, the fact that Tywin is royally pissed after the marriage, the fact that whenever a character mentions a Frey as possible bride it's with revulsion, and the fact that Hoster Tully repeatedly and openly snubbed Walder, I think that you're the one who is greatly mistaken. They are looked down to as upstarts despite their power and wealth, more than any other House but House Codd as far as we're shown.

Robb was not storming the Twins. He needed the Freys. The Freys I think had more men and Robb was not stupid enough to try to storm the Twins. Even when the GreatJon? suggested it in AGOT that idea was dismissed cause the Northemen knew they couldn't do it with what 17,000 men, how was they going to do it with 3,000-4,000 men? 

And are you really using Tywin the most snobbish, stuck up character in the books as an example that the elite snubbed the Freys? 

And when did Hoster Tully repeatedly snubbed the Freys? You mean when he rightly called Walder the late Lord Frey because he showed up late, didn't do anything and expected what exactly for his lack of loyalty? 

When did Tully snubbed Frey? Are you talking about him not marrying his kids to a Frey? What exactly did the Freys do to deserve to marry into house Tully? Why should they get a marriage when houses like Blackwood, Malister, etc... have been just as deserving and loyal? 

 

[Sullen]

Just now, The Wolves said:

Robb was not storming the Twins. He needed the Freys. The Freys I think had more men and Robb was not stupid enough to try to storm the Twins. Even when the GreatJon? suggested it in AGOT that idea was dismissed cause the Northemen knew they couldn't do it with what 17,000 men, how was they going to do it with 3,000-4,000 men? 

Because he literally has no other choice.

If Walder closes the gates, Robb is not simply going to wait around the Twins until Tywin and Mace show up, he's going to try to pass.

1 minute ago, The Wolves said:

And are you really using Tywin the most snobbish, stuck up character in the books as an example that the elite snubbed the Freys?

I'm using Tywin, and all of Tytos's vassals as well.

2 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

And when did Hoster Tully repeatedly snubbed the Freys? You mean when he rightly called Walder the late Lord Frey because he showed up late, didn't do anything and expected what exactly for his lack of loyalty? 

When he refused to marry his son to his most powerful vassal's daughters, when he failed to show up to Lord Walder's weddings, and when he automatically deduced the worst of his vassal when Walder had very valid reasons to be late. (And then proceeded to mock him about it)

4 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

When did Tully snubbed Frey? Are you talking about him not marrying his kids to a Frey? What exactly did the Freys do to deserve to marry into house Tully? Why should they get a marriage when houses like Blackwood, Malister, etc... have been just as deserving and loyal?

 Why should the Tullies not marry the Frey, I ask you?

Frey is by far his most powerful and richest vassal, and the fact that he is of dubious loyalty makes it even more useful to tie him to your House and secure of service. Marrying Edmure to a Frey is the best thing Hoster could have done to secure stability in the Riverlands.

[Trigger Warning]

Meh, if he'd closed his gates then just joined Tywin/Tyrells against him I'd be fine with it, he was justified.

Massacring them in the guise of friendship at a wedding, less so.