Can You Forgive Lord Walder Frey?

[The Wolves]

10 minutes ago, Wall Flower said:

First off, I can't even forgive Old Walder for the horror he inflicts on his unfortunate young wife, never mind the Red Wedding.

A few posters seem to be taking the BS that comes out of Walder's mouth as gospel truth (or light of the seven). I think it's pretty clear that he held off in Robert's Rebellion to avoid being caught on the wrong side, arriving at the Trident just in time to look like one of the winners. Blatantly looking after his own interests might be okay if he didn't expect to be richly rewarded by Hoster for failing to back his own Lord Paramount until the last possible moment. Walder's idea of feudal obligation is that he should do as little as possible while demanding as much reward and respect as the most loyal of vassals.

When Cat goes to negotiate with Walder, he insults her, whines incessantly and makes vomit inducing comments about his sex life with his young wife. I really can't imagine why Hoster wasn't popping over every week for the pleasure of Walder's company. I tend to think that Hoster could have been kissing Walder's arse once a day and Walder would be whining that it wasn't twice a day. 

I may be suspicious in nature, but I think it's interesting that the rewards for the Red Wedding went to Tywin's sister's husband and Amerei Frey who could be married off to a Lannister. Meanwhile, a lot of the blame for the shocking break in guest rites falls on Walder. I wouldn't be surprised if Walder taking the blame was an added bonus for Tywin and the repayment of a debt that he had been waiting to settle since Genna's marriage.

And Robert's Rebellion was going on for a year. Somebody explain to me how Walder Frey showed up a year late after getting summoned by Hoster? 

[Runaway Penguin]

Do not forget that the marriage bargain was basically forced at swordpoint, instead of Freys helping their liege lord. Lord Walder called in banners, but definitely was not in a hurry to relieve the siege of Riverrun (to which he would have adequate force).

Apologetism for mass murder that was the Red Wedding makes me wonder if some people really consider burning down a house with family inside and adequate reply for someone stepping on your toes (or not giving you the deal you have pre-agreed upon).

If it was just to get Robb, slaughter of the Northmen was completely unnecessary. They were drunk and concentrated - just make them wake up in the morning surrounded by armed men and offer them to go North without their weapons.Or even go for the mummer's farce of Roose pretending to be the sole survivor of the Red Wedding, rallying the half drunk host and "fighting their way" out of a trap. Would give him more goodwill and better chance of "quiet land, quiet people" upon his return North. Relying on hostages held by someone else to keep Northern lords in line is not really too smart in the long run.

As for Freys, they clearly expected adulations from Jaime, instead they got scorching behavior from their main ally. They even lost their main hostage to keep Riverlands in line - true, they lost him in exchange for Riverrun, but anyone else thinks they will hold on it for too long?

 

In any case, no, premediated mass murder because someone broke your extortion scheme is not a thing to be forgiven lightly. And it won't be.

[Nocturne]

12 hours ago, Sullen said:

He did show up on the battlefield, but late. 

After the battle was pretty much over, so no that's not an excuse. He betrayed his liege lord, he committed one of the highest crimes u can commit in Westeros.

So no, the guys should not be forgiven at any costs. And also the rest of your posts are pretty much wrong, you really should read the books again, you're taking it way out of proportion with the " he got constant pissed on pity party".

[The Wolves]

35 minutes ago, Nocturne said:

After the battle was pretty much over, so no that's not an excuse. He betrayed his liege lord, he committed one of the highest crimes u can commit in Westeros.

So no, the guys should not be forgiven at any costs. And also the rest of your posts are pretty much wrong, you really should read the books again, you're taking it way out of proportion with the " he got constant pissed on pity party".

I wouldn't call the Freys sitting out the war and showing up the last minute betrayal or a crime. Bannermen sit out on wars all the time so it's not a crime. 

I think Hoster was mad that when the Freys finally showed up it was when the war had already been won and Frey still thought he deserved some type of recognition and alliance with the Tullys when he did nothing to deserve it. 

[sweetsunray]

5 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Don't take this wrong way, because I loathe the Frey name and family practice, but Lord Walder is a cunning old fart and someone needs to light a match to that guy. We readers know this below, and I freaked when the Red Wedding was being set up in the books, so I do agree with what you say as far as in-story characters are careless to trust him after what he did, but he was attempting to protect himself from the gods by playing a game... however, even the gods aren't playing around in the end , so NO, I cannot forgive him because he was mocking his oaths, the gods, the Starks and other people because of a petty arrangement.

--- mayhaps quotes ---

Exactly! It's been argued that Walder Frey's use of "mayhaps" makes the Guest Right claim invalid, that it denied guest right. But the Guest Right custom is an Old Gods Northern First Men custom, predating any invented Frey rule about "mayhaps". The only way to deny guest right is to show bare steel upon and not give them bread and "salt". All the mayhapses show is that Walder Frey's hubris of thinking he can invent his own mayhaps rule over that of the gods.

[shameeka]

Genuine regret and atonement must come first before forgiveness. Walder Frey showed no signs of guilt, nor did he attempt to repent so I'm not forgiving him.

[Protagoras]

There is also a reason that the Frey cannot publically admit to what they have done whereas Tywin got a fucking song written for him about his treatment of the Reynes and Tarbecks - his actions, while cruel, fits in the Westeros mentality and comes of as harsh, but honest. Walder do not. He comes off as a little coward stabbing better men in the back when they look the other way. To quote the Rat cook:

"It was not for murder that the gods cursed him, nor for serving the Andal king his son in a pie. A man has a right to vengeance. But he slew a guest beneath his roof, and that the gods cannot forgive"

This is all about the method and none about the act itself. And Walder knows it. Thats why they decided to create a (bad) cover-up lie.

[Nocturne]

3 hours ago, The Wolves said:

I wouldn't call the Freys sitting out the war and showing up the last minute betrayal or a crime. Bannermen sit out on wars all the time so it's not a crime. 

I think Hoster was mad that when the Freys finally showed up it was when the war had already been won and Frey still thought he deserved some type of recognition and alliance with the Tullys when he did nothing to deserve it. 

I was talking about breaking the guest right.

[UnFit Finlay]

I've got a feeling that Walder was a pawn in the Red Wedding. Much like Roose having to deliver the killing blow to Robb, or Tywin presenting the corpses of Rhaegar's children to Robert, Walder had to do something severe to ensure that there could be no going back. The Red Wedding ensured that House Frey would forever live and die by the whims of House Lannister. I'd guess that it was Tywin's price for allowing him to switch sides.

House Frey has got to die though. Walder dying without an heir is the only fitting end for a guy who has been so arrogant and dismissive about the lives of his children and grandchildren, and it'll be the only way to restore the sanctity of the Guest Right.

[Sullen]

7 hours ago, The Wolves said:

And Robert's Rebellion was going on for a year. Somebody explain to me how Walder Frey showed up a year late after getting summoned by Hoster? 

Walder is old as fuck and considered his options before making a choice.

If he had truly decided to sit it out, he would not have showed up at all.

6 hours ago, Nocturne said:

After the battle was pretty much over, so no that's not an excuse. He betrayed his liege lord, he committed one of the highest crimes u can commit in Westeros.

So no, the guys should not be forgiven at any costs. And also the rest of your posts are pretty much wrong, you really should read the books again, you're taking it way out of proportion with the " he got constant pissed on pity party".

He showed up after the battle was over, yes, that's what being late entices, what you blatantly fail to understand is that the fact itself that he showed up shows that he was on his way before the battle decided who the winner of the war would be, ie: he finally decided to pick a side. The reason why Hoster is so pissed is because he cannot, as a feudal lord, punish him without knowing what side Frey decided to support. While Mooton and Goodbrook were pretty much crushed into irrelevance, Frey remained untouched, specifically because we have no idea of what was going on.

I believe you missed about half of the interactions the Freys have with other characters, mate, half of it is being pissed on. Whether it's generalizing them as chinless inbred cretins or simply dismissing their importance, they did get shit on constantly, just take for another example Robb trying to justify his marriage to Jayne by telling Catelyn that the Westerlings are better blood than the Freys, and Catelyn's answer to it, which pretty much confirms that other Lords looking down upon Frey is a common occurrence. 

[dariopatke]

2 hours ago, UnFit Finlay said:

I'd guess that it was Tywin's price for allowing him to switch sides.

No,that was price for Riverrun, Darry and Lancel. Tywin is known as someone who embraces fallen foe, if Walder wanted to switch sides, Tywin would have let him, but Freys wouldn't get anything (except maybe some villages and mills like Brackens got).

[The Wolves]

53 minutes ago, Sullen said:

Walder is old as fuck and considered his options before making a choice.

If he had truly decided to sit it out, he would not have showed up at all. 

He showed up at the end when the rebels had fought a year long war and won and from what we know contributed nothing to the war(if he did it would have been mentioned)

Of course Walder is old but he could have sent his sons and grandsons a few men during the war, but no he and the Freys stayed out of it and showed up when all the work was done yet he expects recognition and honor among his leige lord, really? 

[Sullen]

4 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

He showed up at the end when the rebels had fought a year long war and won and from what we know contributed nothing to the war(if he did it would have been mentioned)

Of course Walder is old but he could have sent his sons and grandsons a few men during the war, but no he and the Freys stayed out of it and showed up when all the work was done yet he expects recognition and honor among his leige lord, really? 

He wanted to show up by himself, and the war was not over when he started to move, that's the whole point.

He never got the chance to prove how loyal, or disloyal, he was, and it irks a lot of Riverlords. He can claim he was going to support the rebels all he wants, and they can't prove the contrary, but at the same time they don't exactly trust him because it's oh so convenient.

Walder doesn't expect any honours either, he expects to be treated as one treats his most powerful vassal, which Hoster grossly neglected to do because he was focused on the grand scale (alliances with Lords Paramounts here and there!) while completely forgetting that internal stability is of the utmost importance, and he's got an extremely powerful and prickly vassal in Frey. Antagonizing him by 1) Mocking him publicly, 2) Ignoring his invitations to his weddings, and 3) Refusing any offer of marriage was the complete opposite of what you should do to ensure the loyalty of your most powerful bannerman.

Again, compare how Mace deals with internal threats with the way Hoster does it. House Tyrell, Redwyne, and Hightower, the three big powerhouses in the Reach are married between each other several times over, ensuring that the interests of one are also the interests of the other. Mace/Olenna knows what's up and how to play the vassal game.

I have to repeat myself again, but a marriage is not an honour, or a reward, it's a contract that binds two Houses together and seal an alliance, and it's what Hoster direly needed with Walder (and his vassals in general), especially considering how extremely fickle and disloyal the Riverlords seem to be.

[The Wolves]

46 minutes ago, Sullen said:

 

 I have to repeat myself again, but a marriage is not an honour, or a reward, it's a contract that binds two Houses together and seal an alliance, and it's what Hoster direly needed with Walder (and his vassals in general), especially considering how extremely fickle and disloyal the Riverlords seem to be.

Walder certainly thinks a marriage is an honor and reward especially to his house because they are so powerful, connected and numerous. Walder is a narcissistic, self important asshole who thinks he is owed a Tully marraige. 

And Hoster having an alliance with the Freys means nothing in the long run to the Freys they MURDERED their own kin, Walder gave no fecks that Cat killed his grandson. We even see multiple scenes with the Freys plotting to betray each other. 

The only one who would have benefited from a Tully/Frey marriage is the Freys. Hoster was not going to get anything out of a Frey marriage defiantly not any loyalty. 

[Sullen]

4 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

Walder certainly thinks a marriage is an honor and reward especially to his house because they are so powerful, connected and numerous. Walder is a narcissistic, self important asshole who thinks he is owed a Tully marraige. 

He thinks he's owed one, yes, but not as an honour or a reward, simply because he is in a position where, as far as feudalism goes, refusing him a marriage is downright stupid.

5 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

And Hoster having an alliance with the Freys means nothing in the long run to the Freys they MURDERED their own kin, Walder gave no fecks that Cat killed his grandson. We even see multiple scenes with the Freys plotting to betray each other. 

Walder did not murder his own kin, he knew of the extreme importance of family, and taught those lessons very carefully to Stevron. Jinglebell was a halfwit, and the only way he could have saved him is by letting Robb go, no way he was going to have that.

An alliance with the Freys means a lot, do you seriously think Walder would have sent his 5k men and sons to bleed and die for King Robb if they didn't have any alliances? The alliance between Walder and Robb is the only reason Robb's rebellion lasted more than a few months, to say that an alliance with Walder is worthless is absolutely foolish.

The only reason the Freys are planning to murder each other is because Stevron died and succession is now completely uncertain and dangerous for all of them, each of them could end up homeless if the wrong one inherits. Stevron dying for Robb marks dark times for House Frey, even if Robb hadn't betrayed them right after.

11 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

The only one who would have benefited from a Tully/Frey marriage is the Freys. Hoster was not going to get anything out of a Frey marriage defiantly not any loyalty. 

Except that this is completely false.

The Frey-Stark betrothals caused Frey to send thousands of men with Robb, he antagonized the Crown and Tywin fucking Lannister for it, all of that because what is good for House Stark is good for House Frey as long as they have a marriage pact.

Seriously mate, this is feudalism 101, it's not hard to understand.

[UnFit Finlay]

8 hours ago, dariopatke said:

No,that was price for Riverrun, Darry and Lancel. Tywin is known as someone who embraces fallen foe, if Walder wanted to switch sides, Tywin would have let him, but Freys wouldn't get anything (except maybe some villages and mills like Brackens got).

The Tarbecks and Reynes would disagree if you could find any. I certainly can't think of any songs about Tywin's compassion.

Walder was in trouble. He allied with Robb, who not only betrayed him but, worse, was almost certain to lose the war (thanks to Roose's sabotage, Theon's betrayal, etc). Now I'm not suggesting that Tywin wouldn't have let him switch sides, I'm saying that Walder had no leverage to negotiate at all. It was a choice between doing what Tywin wanted, or waiting until Robb went North and then getting massacred.

The Freys are reviled throughout the realm now, even more than Roose who did the actual Kingslaying (which I believe was also Tywin's price incidentally). I can't see him being stupid enough to do that for two castles and a marriage, even if one of them was Riverrun.

[MinotaurWarrior]

Robb Stark was a literal bloodthirsty monster, whereas House Frey seems to be the only house actually concretely working towards building a better future. They were responsible for the second most notable infrastructure development in the past 600 years, and Walder has contributed more to human capital than seemingly any other Lord in the seven kingdoms. Would you ask if anyone could forgive Dany for her betrayal of guest right in Astapor? What about the time she created a false truce and got enemy troops drunk to facilitate a massacre outside Yunkai?

[dariopatke]

9 hours ago, UnFit Finlay said:

The Tarbecks and Reynes would disagree if you could find any. I certainly can't think of any songs about Tywin's compassion.

Walder was in trouble. He allied with Robb, who not only betrayed him but, worse, was almost certain to lose the war (thanks to Roose's sabotage, Theon's betrayal, etc). Now I'm not suggesting that Tywin wouldn't have let him switch sides, I'm saying that Walder had no leverage to negotiate at all. It was a choice between doing what Tywin wanted, or waiting until Robb went North and then getting massacred.

The Freys are reviled throughout the realm now, even more than Roose who did the actual Kingslaying (which I believe was also Tywin's price incidentally). I can't see him being stupid enough to do that for two castles and a marriage, even if one of them was Riverrun.

Reynes and Tarbecks are different, they had different reasons to rebel amd entire situations is different. Look at Tyrels (they even got a Queen and half of SC), Brackens, Manderlys, even Blackwoods,Vance, Pyper, Connington and Fossoway (Joff was their third King),...

Yes, doing what Tywin wanted, but Tywin was too smart to humiliate Freys again.

Why not? He is spiteful old man who had enough of fishes and wolves. Oh, and if Walder sent a raven to Tywin "I want to bend the knee to Joffrey" and Tywin just sais "Ok, but take care of Robb"... well there was i big chance he wouldnt commit such a crime and why would Tywin risk to let Robb get 4k extra men, if there was least chance of that (and it was) why risk it?

[Runaway Penguin]

Re. Late Lord Frey, his late arrival signals he decided to move... To join whoever won the battle. If Robert lost, Rhaegar would be calling him "Later Lord Frey" (but would probably have to grit his teeth and grant him Riverlands).

[Jon's Queen Consort]

On 8/9/2016 at 8:30 PM, Sullen said:

Heh, self-preservation and vindication are valid excuses for what he did, he simply pushed it too far.

Before the Red Wedding, he literally did nothing wrong, except being unpleasant and lecherous. 

Agree.

Moreover I believe that even after the Red Wedding the wrong thing he did was that he exaggerated and killed almost the majority of the men. If he had killed just Robb and Cat while closing his gates and left the others to Tywin army, for me there would have no need to forgive him because he wouldn’t had done nothing wrong.