Can You Forgive Lord Walder Frey?

[Runaway Penguin]

Even then he would be guilty of breaking guest right, just on much smaller scale, and he still would be morally in the wrong. Adding mass murder on top of this was just topping on the cake.

Before the Red Wedding he already failed in his duty to his Lord Paramount, being besieged by Lannister forces (do not forget they did not become King's forces for some time). And once again he skirted the disobedience/oathbreaking carfully - he called banners, but then did nothing. From this point of view, promise of marriage from Robb was extorted at swordpoint.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 minute ago, Runaway Penguin said:

promise of marriage from Robb was extorted at swordpoint.

Same could be told for the majority of marriages in ASOIAF. From Torrhen's daughter's marriage with Ronnel to Cat's, Lysa's, Eleanor Mooton's and Ermesande's marriage that is how it works in ASOIAF. Robb was a traitor to the crown and Walder had no reason to become one too.

[UnFit Finlay]

1 hour ago, dariopatke said:

Reynes and Tarbecks are different, they had different reasons to rebel amd entire situations is different. Look at Tyrels (they even got a Queen and half of SC), Brackens, Manderlys, even Blackwoods,Vance, Pyper, Connington and Fossoway (Joff was their third King),...

Yes, doing what Tywin wanted, but Tywin was too smart to humiliate Freys again.

Why not? He is spiteful old man who had enough of fishes and wolves. Oh, and if Walder sent a raven to Tywin "I want to bend the knee to Joffrey" and Tywin just sais "Ok, but take care of Robb"... well there was i big chance he wouldnt commit such a crime and why would Tywin risk to let Robb get 4k extra men, if there was least chance of that (and it was) why risk it?

The Tarbecks and the Reynes are what Tywin is most remembered for though. Nobody sings about him pardoning anybody.

Again, Walder had no options. He'd tied himself to a King who'd humiliated him and was losing the war. His choice was to do whatever Tywin wanted or bend the knee to Robb, again, and then die when Robb took his men back North. Roose knew that that was Robb's plan so it's safe to assume that Tywin knew it as well. Those 4K men aren't going to do much good against the entire Lannister and Tyrell army are they? Especially given how ravaged the Riverlands were already.

You also have to consider Roose as well. He had a vested interest in Robb not making it back North. In fact his life and the future of House Bolton depended on it. I'd guarantee he'd have done his best to dispell any doubts that Walder had about breaking guest right.

Ultimately, I suppose it just depends on how stupid you think Walder is. I personally don't think he is. I think he's a cautious, clever man who let himself be swayed with dreams of his daughter being a Queen, and then got desperate when it was snatched away. Unfortunately for him, Tywin and Roose were smart enough to take advantage of it.

[Equilibrium]

Nope, the worst person still alive in books. No, the worst person in the books, period.

He should see all the Freys die (or think they all died, good or inconsequential Freys can disappear and renounce the name or something, it's about Walder, not Freys in general, bad ones should die as well, especially Lothar and Black Walder, Edwyn and Ryman as well)

This is not open for argument, no one can convince me otherwise, so no one with an ounce of brain should try to do it. I really mean it, I don't try to convince anyone else, and I have no plans of arguing moral relativism here.

 

[dariopatke]

3 hours ago, UnFit Finlay said:

The Tarbecks and the Reynes are what Tywin is most remembered for though. Nobody sings about him pardoning anybody.

Again, Walder had no options. He'd tied himself to a King who'd humiliated him and was losing the war. His choice was to do whatever Tywin wanted or bend the knee to Robb, again, and then die when Robb took his men back North. Roose knew that that was Robb's plan so it's safe to assume that Tywin knew it as well. Those 4K men aren't going to do much good against the entire Lannister and Tyrell army are they? Especially given how ravaged the Riverlands were already.

You also have to consider Roose as well. He had a vested interest in Robb not making it back North. In fact his life and the future of House Bolton depended on it. I'd guarantee he'd have done his best to dispell any doubts that Walder had about breaking guest right.

Ultimately, I suppose it just depends on how stupid you think Walder is. I personally don't think he is. I think he's a cautious, clever man who let himself be swayed with dreams of his daughter being a Queen, and then got desperate when it was snatched away. Unfortunately for him, Tywin and Roose were smart enough to take advantage of it.

Because that is what he had to do in order to be considered serious and to restore Lannister name. He is a man who knows when to be merciful and when to be cruel. FE he may pardon Blackwoods and Mallisters, but Tullys would pay, he may oardon Umbers and Mormonts, but Starks have to pay.

But if that way price for allowing for switching sides, why did they get Riverrun and Darry? Remember that with proper moves they could marry Mariya Darry to some Lannister and screw Freys, if she cant have more children, Lancel may marry Ami, but they would live without Freys for 30, 40 years before Amarei becomes Lady of Darry. Also remember that Riverrun could be granted to Kevan fe.

Wait, you think Tywin would exterminate every noble house from North and RL? Roose could easily marry any young noblewoman and make dozen children before Lannisters arrive, if he wanted to bend the knee Tywin would allow him with no punishment, but if he wamted Ramsay to be legitimised, Arya, Winterfell and Wardenship he had to kill Robb.

No, ofc Walder isnt stupid, he calculated that guest right will be forgotten in generation or two, but Riverrun will stay in their hands for centuries.

[UnFit Finlay]

5 hours ago, dariopatke said:

Because that is what he had to do in order to be considered serious and to restore Lannister name. He is a man who knows when to be merciful and when to be cruel. FE he may pardon Blackwoods and Mallisters, but Tullys would pay, he may oardon Umbers and Mormonts, but Starks have to pay.

But if that way price for allowing for switching sides, why did they get Riverrun and Darry? Remember that with proper moves they could marry Mariya Darry to some Lannister and screw Freys, if she cant have more children, Lancel may marry Ami, but they would live without Freys for 30, 40 years before Amarei becomes Lady of Darry. Also remember that Riverrun could be granted to Kevan fe.

Wait, you think Tywin would exterminate every noble house from North and RL? Roose could easily marry any young noblewoman and make dozen children before Lannisters arrive, if he wanted to bend the knee Tywin would allow him with no punishment, but if he wamted Ramsay to be legitimised, Arya, Winterfell and Wardenship he had to kill Robb.

No, ofc Walder isnt stupid, he calculated that guest right will be forgotten in generation or two, but Riverrun will stay in their hands for centuries.

Again - Tywin is known for exterminating the Reynes and Tarbecks. He is NOT known pardoning people. Remember the discussion Jon Connington remembers about what Tywin would've done if he'd been charge for the Battle of the Bells? Remember Rhaegar's children and the sack of King's Landing? That's his reputation.

I'm honestly not sure how you're not getting this. The two sides were negotiating for the Freys to switch allegiances. Tywin had all the leverage while Walder had absolutely none. Thus, Tywin was able to get an agreement that turned House Frey into pariahs, who are completely dependant on House Lannister for their survival. In one stroke he's ensured that they'll never be able to switch sides again.

Yes, Emmon, Tywin's brother in law, got Riverrun and Ami got Darry and, briefly, Lancel, but that's it. They committed one of the biggest atrocities in the history of Westeros and weren't even made Lord Paramount out of it. If you think Walder thought that was a good deal then, yes, you do think he's stupid.

And, no, I don't believe Tywin would exterminate every House that rebelled. I don't even think he'd have exterminated the Freys. I do, however, think he and Roose would've been able to convince Walder of that possibility, especially since Robb was preparing to leave the Riverlands essentially undefended. If that had happened Walder would've had even *less* negotiating leverage than he had when negotiating the Red Wedding. He'd have been lucky to keep the Twins.

The threat to Roose wasn't the Lannisters - it was Robb. Tywin releasing Robett Glover and sending him North was, again, a brilliant negotiating tactic. If Robb made it North and spoke to Robett ("Why on earth did you go to Duskendale?!!!") then Roose's treason would've been exposed. Lord Manderly's testimony against Ramsay in regards to Lady Hornwood would likely have been enough to see him executed as well. Robb going North = No more Boltons.

[dariopatke]

On 10.9.2016. at 10:45 PM, UnFit Finlay said:

Again - Tywin is known for exterminating the Reynes and Tarbecks. He is NOT known pardoning people. Remember the discussion Jon Connington remembers about what Tywin would've done if he'd been charge for the Battle of the Bells? Remember Rhaegar's children and the sack of King's Landing? That's his reputation.

I'm honestly not sure how you're not getting this. The two sides were negotiating for the Freys to switch allegiances. Tywin had all the leverage while Walder had absolutely none. Thus, Tywin was able to get an agreement that turned House Frey into pariahs, who are completely dependant on House Lannister for their survival. In one stroke he's ensured that they'll never be able to switch sides again.

Yes, Emmon, Tywin's brother in law, got Riverrun and Ami got Darry and, briefly, Lancel, but that's it. They committed one of the biggest atrocities in the history of Westeros and weren't even made Lord Paramount out of it. If you think Walder thought that was a good deal then, yes, you do think he's stupid.

And, no, I don't believe Tywin would exterminate every House that rebelled. I don't even think he'd have exterminated the Freys. I do, however, think he and Roose would've been able to convince Walder of that possibility, especially since Robb was preparing to leave the Riverlands essentially undefended. If that had happened Walder would've had even *less* negotiating leverage than he had when negotiating the Red Wedding. He'd have been lucky to keep the Twins.

The threat to Roose wasn't the Lannisters - it was Robb. Tywin releasing Robett Glover and sending him North was, again, a brilliant negotiating tactic. If Robb made it North and spoke to Robett ("Why on earth did you go to Duskendale?!!!") then Roose's treason would've been exposed. Lord Manderly's testimony against Ramsay in regards to Lady Hornwood would likely have been enough to see him executed as well. Robb going North = No more Boltons.

Again, Tywin knows when he needs to be cruel. And he needs reputation of serious man, but that doesnt change the fact that he was beyond generous to fallen foes.

I am not sure how you are not getting this, Tywin sais "Do RW and you will be pardoned", Walder sais "I am not breaking guest right" and Tywin sais "I will extermiate you house in response".... but oh wait, his second son is married to Tywins sister and some Freys have Lannister blood. Walder knows worst case scenario is  Emmon being Lord of Crossing.

Riverrun is in short term ruled by Lannisters, do you think in 100 years people will care that Genna was married to Emmon? Like I said, Walder counts that it will be forgotten, like it will in 60-100 years, especially if couple of great Lords appear in row. I am not saying I would have done it if I am in his place, but I understand why he did it what were his calculations, I would simply declare for Joffrey when I hear of BW and defend Twins somehow knowing Tywin would not let his sister to be captured or killed, I would not be harmed (I was the first Riverlord who bent the knee) and I may even get some extra lands.

If you do not think he wpuld exterminate them, how do you think he would punish them? Like Brackens, Blackwoods, Mootons and Vances? Like Conningtons, Estermonts, Fossoways and Celtigars?

At mommemt when Robett was sent to Duskendale Roose was already determined to do what he has, there was no ciming back at that point. What would Manderly say that could put Roose in problem?

[The Wolves]

8 minutes ago, dariopatke said:

Again, Tywin knows when he needs to be cruel. And he needs reputation of serious man, but that doesnt change the fact that he was beyond generous to fallen foes.

I am not sure how you are not getting this, Tywin sais "Do RW and you will be pardoned", Walder sais "I am not breaking guest right" and Tywin sais "I will extermiate you house in response".... but oh wait, his second son is married to Tywins sister and some Freys have Lannister blood. Walder knows worst case scenario is  Emmon being Lord of Crossing.

Riverrun is in short term ruled by Lannisters, do you think in 100 years people will care that Genna was married to Emmon? Like I said, Walder counts that it will be forgotten, like it will in 60-100 years, especially if couple of great Lords appear in row. I am not saying I would have done it if I am in his place, but I understand why he did it what were his calculations, I would simply declare for Joffrey when I hear of BW and defend Twins somehow knowing Tywin would not let his sister to be captured or killed, I would not be harmed (I was the first Riverlord who bent the knee) and I may even get some extra lands.

If you do not think he wpuld exterminate them, how do you think he would punish them? Like Brackens, Blackwoods, Mootons and Vances? Like Conningtons, Estermonts, Fossoways and Celtigars?

At mommemt when Robett was sent to Duskendale Roose was already determined to do what he has, there was no ciming back at that point. What would Manderly say that could put Roose in problem?

How does Walder think that breaking a sacred taboo will be forgotten in a few generations? 

The RW will be talked about forever in Westeros. The details may change like what Robb did to offend the Freys, I doubt that part of the story will be remembered but the Freys will always have the taint of sitting thousands down at the Twins and massacring them under guest right. 

There are famous events that happened thousands and hundreds of years ago in Westeros and those stories are still going strong, how the hell does anyone think such an event like the RW will be forgotten in a few years? 

 

[Darth Sidious]

On 9/8/2016 at 1:49 PM, Sullen said:

Stay with the Tullies and the King in the North after he's been repeatedly shit on and backstabbed? Not likely, if you want your vassals to be loyal, you need to treat them well, and Walder is pretty much the definition of a vassal mistreated by both his lieges.

How was his betrayal of the Starks at the profit of the Lannisters anything short-term from his point of view? As far as everyone knows, he just got Riverrun for his service, the Northern rebels have been defeated, Stannis is stuck helpless in the North, and the Lannister-Tyrell alliance is as solid as possible. It only looks like short-term gain if you consider the turmoil that is about to happen that couldn't have been expected (Magic Ironborn laying waste to the Reach, ice zombies coming from beyond the Wall, magic wolf horde rampaging the countryside, and freaking Targaryens coming out of nowhere).

From a down-to-earth point of view, the Freys are safe, the series's magic elements are what is going to create great imbalance and fuck them up.

Walder won, for now.  If he had stayed with Robb, he would have lost with Robb.  I don't see the need to go down with Robb after he disrespected him.  Tywin offered Walder an out, a chance to get back on the Iron Throne's good graces.  All he needs to do is to kill a rebel northerner who proclaimed himself a king. 

[of man and wolf]

On 9/8/2016 at 1:49 PM, Sullen said:

Stay with the Tullies and the King in the North after he's been repeatedly shit on and backstabbed? Not likely, if you want your vassals to be loyal, you need to treat them well, and Walder is pretty much the definition of a vassal mistreated by both his lieges.

How was his betrayal of the Starks at the profit of the Lannisters anything short-term from his point of view? As far as everyone knows, he just got Riverrun for his service, the Northern rebels have been defeated, Stannis is stuck helpless in the North, and the Lannister-Tyrell alliance is as solid as possible. It only looks like short-term gain if you consider the turmoil that is about to happen that couldn't have been expected (Magic Ironborn laying waste to the Reach, ice zombies coming from beyond the Wall, magic wolf horde rampaging the countryside, and freaking Targaryens coming out of nowhere).

From a down-to-earth point of view, the Freys are safe, the series's magic elements are what is going to create great imbalance and fuck them up.

Why should he expect respect and to be treated fairly when each time there was battle, he never moved a foot until the side was won. Hence the late Lord Frey. He never earned respect.

[The Wolves]

42 minutes ago, Lord High Papal said:

Walder won, for now.  If he had stayed with Robb, he would have lost with Robb.  I don't see the need to go down with Robb after he disrespected him.  Tywin offered Walder an out, a chance to get back on the Iron Throne's good graces.  All he needs to do is to kill a rebel northerner who proclaimed himself a king. 

Walder didn't have to kill anybody to get back in Tywin's good graces. Why do people assume that? All he had to do was close Robb off from the Twins and publicly declare for the crown, it's that simple. 

The Freys murdered thousands because they wanted to not because they had to. Don't use that tired, old, cliche defense about "having to" they Freys didn't have to do a damn thing not throw in with Robb or murder thousands to get back in good with the crown. 

 

Disclaimer: Not that you're saying that Frey had to. This wasn't directed at anybody in particular, sorry if it sounds like it is. 

[l2 0 5 5]

I understand why Walder made the move he did (same with Roose and Tywin), but there's no way it's forgivable if you're a fan of the North and/or House Stark. He violated guest right and pulled the ultimate sucker punch.

The question you must ask yourself is what has he done to gain forgiveness? Jaime and Theon have demonstrated redeeming acts throughout the series to make you feel a different way about their character.  Perhaps even made you forgive them for things they have done in the past. As for Lord Walder, he has done nothing of the sort. You can cite Freys being killed by the BwB, but those attacks were brought on by Lord Walder's actions, and I can assure you that the old man himself could give a damn less about those kin of his dying due to his own selfish motives.

[of man and wolf]

Roose betraying Robb though was totally not understandable at all. This guy was just a tresonous cunt from the begining and plotted this out well before anything was truly lost.

[INCBlackbird]

On 8-9-2016 at 7:21 PM, Nocturne said:

Nope, he swore allegiance to house Tully and betrayed them. 

Is that really your biggest issue with the red wedding?

To answer the question, yes I do forgive Walder. What he did was obviously wrong but I understand where he was coming from and I understand his bitterness.

[Universal Sword Donor]

12 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said:

Is that really your biggest issue with the red wedding?

To answer the question, yes I do forgive Walder. What he did was obviously wrong but I understand where he was coming from and I understand his bitterness.

I have zero qualms with breaking with Tully and Robb. We're not sure if the Freys even swore to him directly, but he did break a marriage oath. Lyonel Baratheon, a fan favorite (imo an idealized version of Rob Baratheon), rebelled over the same. What I do have issue with is the lengths they went to to get revenge and the pretense under which they did it. Walder had every right to pull back his troops or even attack Robb. Ruining the guest right or parley system is not good for long term politics.

[INCBlackbird]

1 minute ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

I have zero qualms with breaking with Tully and Robb. We're not sure if the Freys even swore to him directly, but he did break a marriage oath. Lyonel Baratheon, a fan favorite (imo an idealized version of Rob Baratheon), rebelled over the same. What I do have issue with is the lengths they went to to get revenge and the pretense under which they did it. Walder had every right to pull back his troops or even attack Robb. Ruining the guest right or parley system is not good for long term politics.

I get that a lot of people take on the in world morality, but I don't really understand that? Like, I'm not going to judge characters for taking the guest right issue so seriously because in the world they live in that is a big issue. But I myself, take more issue with murdering people in cold blood, in horrible ways and gloating at it, then breaking guest right. I get why guest right is a nessacary thing in a feudal society, like I get why using the word "honor" to self-rightiously control people and justify murder is a nessacary thing in a feudal society. The reason they are nessacary things is because there's so much violence in this world... they can't trust eachother so they need to create these rules that say "this is worse then violence" "this justifies violence" in order to survive. That doesn't mean "I" agree with that, cause I don't live in that soiciety (thank god) and therefor I know better. So yeah, personally I don't care about oaths, I don't care about honor (in fact I loath the whole honor concept cause it's a lie). What I care about is the violence and more important how the character feels about the violence, that is what I will judge them on and only that.

The thing with Walder for me is that he most certainly enjoyed the red wedding, which is terrible. So yeah he's a bad person. But looking at it from his perspective I can also understand where he's coming from. He's been mocked all his life by pretty much everyone, it's so common place that everyone despises the Freys that Robb doesn't even think about it (which I don't hold against, he's a kid). And if you've been mocked so much, you start to internalize it, and see it even when it's not there. It wouldn't surprise me that Walder imagined Robb gloating about breaking his oath, that he thought Robb never meant to keep it in the first place and was laughing behind his back about how funny it is that Walder ever even believed he'd marry a Frey. Of course all of that isn't true, but Walder probably believed it to be. So yeah I can understand his bitterness and anger. Obviously that doesn't justify anything but it puts things into perspective.

[INCBlackbird]

On 9-9-2016 at 7:35 AM, Wall Flower said:

First off, I can't even forgive Old Walder for the horror he inflicts on his unfortunate young wife, never mind the Red Wedding.

A few posters seem to be taking the BS that comes out of Walder's mouth as gospel truth (or light of the seven). I think it's pretty clear that he held off in Robert's Rebellion to avoid being caught on the wrong side, arriving at the Trident just in time to look like one of the winners. Blatantly looking after his own interests might be okay if he didn't expect to be richly rewarded by Hoster for failing to back his own Lord Paramount until the last possible moment. Walder's idea of feudal obligation is that he should do as little as possible while demanding as much reward and respect as the most loyal of vassals.

When Cat goes to negotiate with Walder, he insults her, whines incessantly and makes vomit inducing comments about his sex life with his young wife. I really can't imagine why Hoster wasn't popping over every week for the pleasure of Walder's company. I tend to think that Hoster could have been kissing Walder's arse once a day and Walder would be whining that it wasn't twice a day. 

I may be suspicious in nature, but I think it's interesting that the rewards for the Red Wedding went to Tywin's sister's husband and Amerei Frey who could be married off to a Lannister. Meanwhile, a lot of the blame for the shocking break in guest rites falls on Walder. I wouldn't be surprised if Walder taking the blame was an added bonus for Tywin and the repayment of a debt that he had been waiting to settle since Genna's marriage.

I absolutely think he was bullshitting and showed up late on purpose. But I also don't think there's anything wrong with that. No one should be required to fight someone else war. Oath or no oath.

[The Wolves]

17 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said:

The thing with Walder for me is that he most certainly enjoyed the red wedding, which is terrible. So yeah he's a bad person. But looking at it from his perspective I can also understand where he's coming from. He's been mocked all his life by pretty much everyone, it's so common place that everyone despises the Freys that Robb doesn't even think about it (which I don't hold against, he's a kid). And if you've been mocked so much, you start to internalize it, and see it even when it's not there. It wouldn't surprise me that Walder imagined Robb gloating about breaking his oath, that he thought Robb never meant to keep it in the first place and was laughing behind his back about how funny it is that Walder ever even believed he'd marry a Frey. Of course all of that isn't true, but Walder probably believed it to be. So yeah I can understand his bitterness and anger. Obviously that doesn't justify anything but it puts things into perspective.

But Walder haven't been mocked his whole life and before the RW not everyone despised the Freys. 

Walder says himself that he has hosted three kings and queens in his life plus his family is intermarried with so many houses yet people keep acting like Walder was shunned by that .1% of society that he was a part of. 

Walder is a very insecure, petty, greedy, narcissistic individual much like Tywin, Roose, Ramsey, Joffery, Littlefinger, Cersei, and the rest of the monsters in the books. 

[INCBlackbird]

2 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

But Walder haven't been mocked his whole life and before the RW not everyone despised the Freys. 

Walder says himself that he has hosted three kings and queens in his life plus his family is intermarried with so many houses yet people keep acting like Walder was shunned by that .1% of society that he was a part of. 

Walder is a very insecure, petty, greedy, narcissistic individual much like Tywin, Roose, Ramsey, Joffery, Littlefinger, Cersei, and the rest of the monsters in the books. 

several people in this thread have already pointed out that yes they were and given examples I'm not gonna repeat them. So yeah, they were despised and mocked.

just because he hosted kings & queens and intermarried doesn't mean he wasn't mocked.

I don't really understand what insecure is doing in that list? I mean... being insecure tends to make me feel sorry for the character, because it's generally something that hurts, also something very human, many people are insecure and it holds them back in life.

That said, I'm not saying tthat he wasn't similar to the other monsters in the books, he certainly has some of those traits though I don't think he's as bad as most of them. And personally, I can still understand someone from their perspective and forgive them even when they have those bad traits, and it'll depend on their reasons and such whether or not I forgive them. In Walder's case I do (I'm very forgiving though)

[Universal Sword Donor]

53 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said:

I get that a lot of people take on the in world morality, but I don't really understand that? Like, I'm not going to judge characters for taking the guest right issue so seriously because in the world they live in that is a big issue. But I myself, take more issue with murdering people in cold blood, in horrible ways and gloating at it, then breaking guest right. I get why guest right is a nessacary thing in a feudal society, like I get why using the word "honor" to self-rightiously control people and justify murder is a nessacary thing in a feudal society. The reason they are nessacary things is because there's so much violence in this world... they can't trust eachother so they need to create these rules that say "this is worse then violence" "this justifies violence" in order to survive. That doesn't mean "I" agree with that, cause I don't live in that soiciety (thank god) and therefor I know better. So yeah, personally I don't care about oaths, I don't care about honor (in fact I loath the whole honor concept cause it's a lie). What I care about is the violence and more important how the character feels about the violence, that is what I will judge them on and only that.

The thing with Walder for me is that he most certainly enjoyed the red wedding, which is terrible. So yeah he's a bad person. But looking at it from his perspective I can also understand where he's coming from. He's been mocked all his life by pretty much everyone, it's so common place that everyone despises the Freys that Robb doesn't even think about it (which I don't hold against, he's a kid). And if you've been mocked so much, you start to internalize it, and see it even when it's not there. It wouldn't surprise me that Walder imagined Robb gloating about breaking his oath, that he thought Robb never meant to keep it in the first place and was laughing behind his back about how funny it is that Walder ever even believed he'd marry a Frey. Of course all of that isn't true, but Walder probably believed it to be. So yeah I can understand his bitterness and anger. Obviously that doesn't justify anything but it puts things into perspective.

For me the guest right goes hand in hand with the cold blooded slaughter. If he had merely taken prisoners, which was implausible at best, then I doubt he'd garner as much hate. Walder was rightfully angry and bitter -- frankly Robb should just have married then and there to get it over with and seal Frey to him permanently -- but his judgment wasn't exactly sound. I realize his family is basically supreme in the RL now, but even if Tywin lives a while longer, memories and enmity can lost a long time.

Much like the "southron conspiracy", the alliance he made would likely have not survived past himself, Tywin and Roose. Cersei is an incompetent ruler/lady of CR. Jaime wants nothing to do with CR. Tyrion is gone. Anyone else would have been a fraction of Tywin. The Tyrells are only in it for themselves. The river lords pretty much all had family at the RW. Even with a western alliance, people would be gunning for RR, Walder's ilk and Darry for years if not decades.