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U.S. Elections 2016: It's Not A Lie, If YOU Believe It


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1 minute ago, IheartIheartTesla said:

It was her campaign on Sunday that stated she felt overheated, and pointed out she attended the ceremony for 90 minutes. But they had known since Friday she had pneumonia.

And now a cancelled California trip which surely would have made less news if they had been a bit more upfront about it.

 

Then they have already fucked it up. Being upfront is always the best thing to do. 

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I don't think this episode will do that much damage.  She was sick but she did show up at the 9/11 memorial.  Think of the flack she would have received if she hadn't shown up, she gets it from both sides no matter what she did. 

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The fact that Clinton is/was sick probably won't sway many voters, especially if she quickly makes a full recovery. And the fact that she went to the memorial service despite being sick may even boost her among a few people.

The real problem is that the campaign didn't disclose the diagnosis on Friday and spent all of Sunday morning making excuses until the statement from the doctor was put out. That whole sequence of events just reinforces the transparency and truthfulness perceptions/issues that many people have with her. I don't think it will hurt her a ton, but I think it will hurt her.

 

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14 minutes ago, Fez said:

The fact that Clinton is/was sick probably won't sway many voters, especially if she quickly makes a full recovery. And the fact that she went to the memorial service despite being sick may even boost her among a few people.

The real problem is that the campaign didn't disclose the diagnosis on Friday and spent all of Sunday morning making excuses until the statement from the doctor was put out. That whole sequence of events just reinforces the transparency and truthfulness perceptions/issues that many people have with her. I don't think it will hurt her a ton, but I think it will hurt her.

 

Fez,

Do you think the high Clinton staffers fail to recognize the "transparency and truthfulness" as an issue, hence their mistake here?

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8 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Fez,

Do you think the high Clinton staffers fail to recognize the "transparency and truthfulness" as an issue, hence their mistake here?

No, I think they know; they're smart people (they're mostly Obama 2012 folks, not Clinton 2008 folks) and the evidence is clear. But there's only so much that can be done when the candidate pushes back and I think Clinton (with good reason) distrusts the media to such an extent that she doesn't like to disclose things for fear it being spun out of control. And there would've been spin and bad press if she disclosed the diagnosis on Friday, but it wouldn't have been as bad as this is.

And as for what happened on Sunday, that was campaign inertia taking over. Clinton was presumably receiving medical care and therefore not directing her campaign and the various staffers didn't know how to respond on something personal like without her input. Also, probably very few of her staff even knew about the diagnosis anyway.

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8 minutes ago, Fez said:

And there would've been spin and bad press if she disclosed the diagnosis on Friday, but it wouldn't have been as bad as this is.

 

Precisely. If it had been disclosed she had pneumonia on Friday, she wouldn't have gotten the speculation that was something "neurologically" wrong with her on Sunday. I am very frustrated with how this was handled myself -- I see that some people in her campaign are complaining this morning that candidates haven't in the past disclosed it when they had colds or "flu" on the campaign trail so why should she have disclosed her pneumonia. The answer to that is a) "pneumonia" sounds like a much more serious term to the general public and therefore needs to be addressed and b: we are now in any era where I think that candidates SHOULD disclose it when they have colds or flu. It's much better to be honest about such things than try to hide them. 

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I agree. I think the campaign just completely fails to realize how these things will go over with the public.  Just anecdotally speaking, my grandmother dropped dead of pneumonia two months ago.  Perfectly healthy walking laps around the block on Monday, dead on Wednesday morning.  My cousins have been posting about this on facebook as proof that Hillary is also close to death.  The number of people who are responding describing their own elderly relatives serious problems or quick deaths due to pneumonia is already in the double digits.  Of course, in hindsight, there were health issues with my grandmother that weren't yet known and likely with the relatives of all these other folks, but it barely matters no for a lot of people.  Pneumonia just sounds like a scary illness even if it's fairly common.

It's just one of those things people will be wondering why the campaign was so secretive about.  There was no point, especially when the Trump campaign has been hammering her on her health.  Despite the actual prognosis of pneumonia, it's just too easy now for people to say that Trump was right and by the way what else is she covering up.  

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14 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

I agree. I think the campaign just completely fails to realize how these things will go over with the public.  Just anecdotally speaking, my grandmother dropped dead of pneumonia two months ago.  Perfectly healthy walking laps around the block on Monday, dead on Wednesday morning.  My cousins have been posting about this on facebook as proof that Hillary is also close to death.  The number of people who are responding describing their own elderly relatives serious problems or quick deaths due to pneumonia is already in the double digits. 

I'm sorry to hear about your grandmother. Did she have galloping pneumonia? My father worked with a woman who had it. She called my father to cover her Saturday shift at work because she thought she had a cold and when he went into work that Monday they told him she was dead. 

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25 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

I agree. I think the campaign just completely fails to realize how these things will go over with the public.  Just anecdotally speaking, my grandmother dropped dead of pneumonia two months ago.  Perfectly healthy walking laps around the block on Monday, dead on Wednesday morning.  My cousins have been posting about this on facebook as proof that Hillary is also close to death.  The number of people who are responding describing their own elderly relatives serious problems or quick deaths due to pneumonia is already in the double digits.  Of course, in hindsight, there were health issues with my grandmother that weren't yet known and likely with the relatives of all these other folks, but it barely matters no for a lot of people.  Pneumonia just sounds like a scary illness even if it's fairly common.

It's just one of those things people will be wondering why the campaign was so secretive about.  There was no point, especially when the Trump campaign has been hammering her on her health.  Despite the actual prognosis of pneumonia, it's just too easy now for people to say that Trump was right and by the way what else is she covering up.  

Yeah, giving Trump credibility is an incredibly stupid and dangerous thing to do at this stage. We're still not that far removed from Americans voting in a President based on his being a good guy to have a beer with...these things don't all turn on platforms. Start making uninformed voters think Trump knows what he's talking about and it could go a long, long way pretty quickly.

Just...unreal. Why is such a smart person leading a very talented group making one dumb move after another? There seems to be more time/thought spent after the fact explaining why Fuck-Up X isn't really a fuck-up than is spent in the fucked-up decisions themselves. God, if the world gets Trump...I mean, fucking hell.

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38 minutes ago, Arch-MaesterPhilip said:

I'm sorry to hear about your grandmother. Did she have galloping pneumonia? My father worked with a woman who had it. She called my father to cover her Saturday shift at work because she thought she had a cold and when he went into work that Monday they told him she was dead. 

I'm not sure about galloping pneumonia, but I do know there were some comorbid conditions where the doctors were like "yup, this is about what we'd expect for someone with these health issues who had also smoked for the better part of 60 years."  It's likely that she'd had pneumonia for a while and everyone confused it with seasonal allergies, from which she suffered greatly.  

23 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

Yeah, giving Trump credibility is an incredibly stupid and dangerous thing to do at this stage. We're still not that far removed from Americans voting in a President based on his being a good guy to have a beer with...these things don't all turn on platforms. Start making uninformed voters think Trump knows what he's talking about and it could go a long, long way pretty quickly.

Just...unreal. Why is such a smart person leading a very talented group making one dumb move after another? There seems to be more time/thought spent after the fact explaining why Fuck-Up X isn't really a fuck-up than is spent in the fucked-up decisions themselves. God, if the world gets Trump...I mean, fucking hell.

I know!  There were a lot of things that I thought would potentially be harmful to Hillary's campaign and they've been there but it's these unforced errors.  Stupid stupid stuff.  The more I think about it, the more ridiculous this error seems.  A simple press release the moment she found out about the pneumonia reminding people the sort of schedule she keeps and the filthy hands she shakes and the snotty babies she cuddles everyday but that she's a BAMF who will still go to the 9/11 memorial and then take a couple days to chill at Chelsea's to recover would have gone a long way.  

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45 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

Yeah, giving Trump credibility is an incredibly stupid and dangerous thing to do at this stage. We're still not that far removed from Americans voting in a President based on his being a good guy to have a beer with...these things don't all turn on platforms. Start making uninformed voters think Trump knows what he's talking about and it could go a long, long way pretty quickly.

Just...unreal. Why is such a smart person leading a very talented group making one dumb move after another? There seems to be more time/thought spent after the fact explaining why Fuck-Up X isn't really a fuck-up than is spent in the fucked-up decisions themselves. God, if the world gets Trump...I mean, fucking hell.

I'm getting the impression that Hillary Clinton isn't actually that great a politician...

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8 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

I know!  There were a lot of things that I thought would potentially be harmful to Hillary's campaign and they've been there but it's these unforced errors.  Stupid stupid stuff.  The more I think about it, the more ridiculous this error seems.  A simple press release the moment she found out about the pneumonia reminding people the sort of schedule she keeps and the filthy hands she shakes and the snotty babies she cuddles everyday but that she's a BAMF who will still go to the 9/11 memorial and then take a couple days to chill at Chelsea's to recover would have gone a long way.  

Or she could have apologized after getting the diagnosis that she would not come to the memorial because she wants to be careful and does not want to make a whole bunch of other people sick. 

The campaign said today several of their team also got sick from pneumonia.

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6 minutes ago, Tijgy said:

Or she could have apologized after getting the diagnosis that she would not come to the memorial because she wants to be careful and does not want to make a whole bunch of other people sick. 

The campaign said today several of their team also got sick from pneumonia.

Ah hell no.  I think there are a lot of strands of pneumonia that aren't contagious, but if this is one that's highly contagious such that it's spread throughout her campaign.....seriously what the fuck is wrong with them.  I bet it's only a matter of time before someone tweets that they've had to miss work because Hillary gave them pneumonia when they met her at a campaign event and they don't have any paid sick leave and they just barely get by on their paycheck as it is.  Then Trump will be all "See!  I told you Hillary doesn't care about the working class!" 

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17 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Being a "bad politician" is not necessarily a strike against anyone.

True, if you mean that that person isn't a politician. But Hillary Clinton is a politician through and through, and she just seems bad at it.

She has all the cronyism and corruption of an average American politician, or maybe a bit more, but she doesn't have the personal charisma or PR instincts to brush it off like a lot of other politicians can.

 

To clarify: When I say she's bad at it, I mean that she's bad at handling the Press and public perception. She's clearly very good at backroom wheeling and dealing.

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What will the debate look like ? If Trump is as deliberately obtuse as his followers, there's no way any actual debate or exchange and critiques of the opponent's policy will take place (at least previously this happened nominally ) but it will be like a live action Reddit thread - you win by going completely off the rails and being bonkers 

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1 minute ago, The Lone Rider said:

there's no way any actual debate or exchange and critiques of the opponent's policy will take place

That's never really happened at a Presidential debate. Sure there was more decorum than a Trump debate would have, but it's really two candidates regurgitating their talking points at each.

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