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Nennymoans and merlings; more Patchface tinfoil


hiemal

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6 hours ago, hiemal said:

Quite possibly. I believe the Deep Ones are the remnants of a land-dwelling race driven into the sea by the CotF in an ancient war but I'm not clear on whether they themselves are the merlings, or if the merlings are Children who were changed when their weirwood groves were drowned. Either way, I believe it is at one these groves that Patchface became... whatever he is. The anti-Ariel. The voice of the hungry ocean. Creepy as hell.

I have to go with Kraken for the Deep Ones and squid in general.

Under the sea, smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black. “I know, I know, oh, oh, oh

I always get the image of squid rising in clouds of black ink; flashing colors green and blue; white crows of the sea with their beaks for mouths. The big fish eat the little fish.

Spoiler

A Kraken born of salt and smoke.  I'm reminded of Aeron's vision of Euron in the Foresaken chapter, with his face writhing like snakes.  Or tentacles?.

 

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4 hours ago, LynnS said:

I have to go with Kraken for the Deep Ones and squid in general.

Under the sea, smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black. “I know, I know, oh, oh, oh

I always get the image of squid rising in clouds of black ink; flashing colors green and blue; white crows of the sea with their beaks for mouths. The big fish eat the little fish.

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A Kraken born of salt and smoke.  I'm reminded of Aeron's vision of Euron in the Foresaken chapter, with his face writhing like snakes.  Or tentacles?.

 

Ooooh, I like that!

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11 hours ago, LynnS said:

Under the sea the old fish eat the young fish. The drowning of boys by priests of the drowned god?  Up here the young fish teach the old fish Shireen teaching Davos to read?

That's a good interpretation! The whole "green, blue, black" colour scheme of the sea is the same as the colours of the Drowned Men:

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Drowned men wear roughspun robes of mottled green, grey, and blue, the colours of the Drowned God.

So the DG version of the Old Gods' sacrifices and Red God sacrifices might be this -  drowning of boys so that the "old fish" can eat them. :thumbsup:

11 hours ago, hiemal said:

Quite possibly. I believe the Deep Ones are the remnants of a land-dwelling race driven into the sea by the CotF in an ancient war but I'm not clear on whether they themselves are the merlings, or if the merlings are Children who were changed when their weirwood groves were drowned. Either way, I believe it is at one these groves that Patchface became... whatever he is. The anti-Ariel. The voice of the hungry ocean. Creepy as hell.

Hmm...I don't know...there are lots of hints that the underwater creatures and the Children were enemies.

I've somehow always wondered about the origin of the IB's phrase "What is dead, may never die, but rises again harder and stronger" --> Is it related to the Others in some way?

Quite a few times in this series, people who have drowned and been rescued have been described as extremely cold to the touch:

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Patchface washed up three days later, his naked skin white, wrinkled, and, the man that found him, Jommy, swears to his dying day that the fool's skin was clammy cold.

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It was Lemore who forced the water from your lungs after Griff had pulled you up. You were as cold as ice, and your lips were blue. Yandry said we ought to throw you back, but the lad forbade it.” (ADWD, Tyrion)

 

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5 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Hmm...I don't know...there are lots of hints that the underwater creatures and the Children were enemies.

I've somehow always wondered about the origin of the IB's phrase "What is dead, may never die, but rises again harder and stronger" --> Is it related to the Others in some way?

Quite a few times in this series, people who have drowned and been rescued have been described as extremely cold to the touch:

 

I think so as well- what I am unclear on is whether the Deep Ones and the merlings are the same thing. From what I've seen, I think a case could be made that merlings, selkies, and walrus-men represent a watery branch from the Children's terrestrial tree -or- that the merlings are either the Deep Ones themselves or the products of some kind of hideous Shadow-Over-Innsmouth-esque breeding project (looking at YOU, squishers).

That could be- it always puts me in mind of Lovecraft's

“That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die.”

 

 

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On 9/12/2016 at 10:09 AM, Seams said:

The white raven in this prologue refers to Shireen as "Lady," and that seems linked to the death of Sansa's direwolf, who was killed by order of King Robert for an offense she did not commit. Foreshadowing?)

Especially if there is an outbreak of greyscale at the wall. 

On 9/12/2016 at 10:09 AM, Seams said:

Also: Some or all of Patchface's references to fish may be references to poison. In the Puns & Wordplay thread, we realized that GRRM was using words from foreign languages in some of his puns - specifically German words for egg (Ei) and iron (Eisen) and poison (Gift). It occurs to me that the French word for fish is poisson. I'm going to reexamine some of Patchface's fish lines to see whether they relate to Cressen or other characters ingesting poison.

This reminds of the Terry Prachett book Feet of Clay, where the bad guy was Dragon, King of Arms (based on the office of Lyon, King of Arms) and he made puns using the heraldry of the Nouveau Riche and hid his plan in their heraldry which was payment for their services in the plot. Suffice it to say he was foiled by the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch and he burned all Dragon's careful breeding program. 

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On 9/12/2016 at 11:57 AM, LynnS said:

I'm thinking that fish are prey and starfish are those who follow the faith of the seven; fish could be anyone who isn't iron born.

Under the sea, men marry fishes (salt wives).

The quote of the old fish eating the old fish is directly pointing at the cannibalism of the Pike fish. Highly territoriality and will resort to cannibalism when there is not enough territory for them. And so we have Euron who is from Pike and is styled Lord Reaper of Pike. 

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On 9/11/2016 at 4:12 PM, hiemal said:

Patchface and champion Euron are going to be playing a bigger role in The Winds of Winter is less about poison and more about those winds (or currents).

I will agree and disagree and I will say that it is another layer of meaning added to the nennymoans.

I will agree that Euron and the Ironborn are a bubbling pressure cooker waiting to explode and are extremely important. But I think the anemones points to self poisoning or a double-edge sword. They are close relations to the freshwater Hydra organisms and they are subjects of much speculation in concern to their functional immortality. 

In seeking immortality there is an element of poisoning oneself as seen with Bloodstone Emperor and the Targaryens adherence to blood purity and the increased frequency of madness and prophecy in combination. 

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13 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

The quote of the old fish eating the old fish is directly pointing at the cannibalism of the Pike fish. Highly territoriality and will resort to cannibalism when there is not enough territory for them. And so we have Euron who is from Pike and is styled Lord Reaper of Pike. 

I like it.  I think a lot of the Patchface pronouncements can point to Euron and the Iron Born.  He is also following in the footsteps of Urrathon Goodbrother who traces his lineage back to the Grey King who wore robes of seaweed..  His sigil is a black horn, banded in gold on a field of red.

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On 9/12/2016 at 6:09 PM, Seams said:

Silver - Often associated with Targaryen or Valyrian hair color. But there was a rumor about Tywin buying silver to make swords to kill wargs and Sansa's hairnet was silver with amethysts. So there's a possibility that silver is associated with delivering death. Silver is also the color of the maester's link for healing, but Cressen specifically says in this prologue that "the world preferred to forget that men who knew how to heal also knew how to kill."

There is a popular theory (which I subscribe to) which claims that Patchface's riddles link to the Doom, Targaryens and Valyria (one example here).

Quote

It is always summer under the sea. The merwives wear nennymoans in their hair and weave gowns of silver seaweed. I know. I know...

As for this quote in particular I believe that it refers to Sansa Stark. Some have stipulated that 'nennymoans' actually refer to [poisonous] purple sea anemones, linking into Sansa's poisonous amethyst hairnet. The 'silver seaweed gown' could refer to Sansa's "silvery satin" gown which she wears to Joffrey's wedding (which is especially made/weaved for wedding) or it could refer to Sansa's weaved silver hairnet containing the poisonous amethyst crystals.

The most important part of this extract to me is the word "merwives": this, for me, links into the Tourney of Ashford theory which suggests that Sansa will marry/will be promised to marry a Targaryen. This could possibly link into the "A+J=T" theory or allude to marriage between Jon Snow and Sansa Stark.

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2 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

I will agree and disagree and I will say that it is another layer of meaning added to the nennymoans.

I will agree that Euron and the Ironborn are a bubbling pressure cooker waiting to explode and are extremely important. But I think the anemones points to self poisoning or a double-edge sword. They are close relations to the freshwater Hydra organisms and they are subjects of much speculation in concern to their functional immortality. 

In seeking immortality there is an element of poisoning oneself as seen with Bloodstone Emperor and the Targaryens adherence to blood purity and the increased frequency of madness and prophecy in combination. 

!

Love it.

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42 minutes ago, Britisher said:

 

As for this quote in particular I believe that it refers to Sansa Stark. Some have stipulated that 'nennymoans' actually refer to [poisonous] purple sea anemones, clearly linking into Sansa's poisonous amethyst hairnet. The 'silver seaweed gown' could refer to Sansa's "silvery satin" gown which she wears to Joffrey's wedding (which is especially made/weaved for wedding) or it could refer to Sansa's weaved silver hairnet containing the poisonous amethyst crystals.

 

Why are the nennymoan's assumed to be purple? The flower and the animal both come in a wide variety of colors- presumably purple can be found among them, but it's not like a trademark of either breed. I've come across the theory before and that seems to me to be an unjustified leap.

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7 minutes ago, hiemal said:

Why are the nennymoan's assumed to be purple? The flower and the animal both come in a wide variety of colors- presumably purple can be found among them, but it's not like a trademark of either breed. I've come across the theory before and that seems to me to be an unjustified leap.

Apologies that is a mistake on my part!

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1 minute ago, Britisher said:

Apologies that is a mistake on my part!

Oh. Well. The silver gown does fit and given his song about the red wedding I'm not writing the theory off, btw

 

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"It is always summer under the sea."

Does this remind anyone else of Brienne's response to Catelyn mourning the fate of the knights of summer as winter approaches:

" Winter will never come for the likes of us. Should we die in battle, they will surely sing of us, and it's always summer in the songs." ACoK

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18 minutes ago, hiemal said:

Why are the nennymoan's assumed to be purple? The flower and the animal both come in a wide variety of colors- presumably purple can be found among them, but it's not like a trademark of either breed. I've come across the theory before and that seems to me to be an unjustified leap.

for me the purple crystals of Sansa's hairnet are a joke because amethysts are literally named 'not intoxicated' and were used to protect be from intoxication but in the story they are used to deliver poison to the king which when you think about it Joffrey died of alcohol poisoning. Hence the amethyst purpose was inverted. 

The poison used is the Stranger which is a characteristic associated with both vines (in this case grape vines) and snakes.  

The second thing is the purple eyes of Valyrians who are snakes/dragons and the madness that shows up quite frequently is a corruption of their genes and should right be viewed as poisoned blood. 

The silver too could be viewed as poison because quicksilver or Mercury and we know the toxicity of mercury.

Edit: 

The creation of the Anemone was that Venus mixed her dead lover's blood with nectar and up sprang the flower. Corrupted blood in a sense.

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1 minute ago, Pain killer Jane said:

for me the purple crystals of Sansa's hairnet are a joke because amethysts are literally named 'not intoxicated' and were used to protect be from intoxication but in the story they are used to deliver poison to the king which when you think about it Joffrey died of alcohol poisoning. Hence the amethyst purpose was inverted. 

The poison used is the Stranger which is a characteristic associated with both vines (in this case grape vines) and snakes.  

The second thing is the purple eyes of Valyrians who are snakes/dragons and the madness that shows up quite frequently is a corruption of their genes and should right be viewed as poisoned blood. 

The silver too could be viewed as poison because quicksilver or Mercury and we know the toxicity of mercruy.

Or could it be, and I'm just spitballing here, a sign of a confluence of fire and ice- the red eyes of so many we've met (Mel and Bloodraven chief among them) and the blue eyes of the Others and their minions?

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1 minute ago, hiemal said:

Or could it be, and I'm just spitballing here, a sign of a confluence of fire and ice- the red eyes of so many we've met (Mel and Bloodraven chief among them) and the blue eyes of the Others and their minions?

yes because red and blue lights produce purple light. And Martin uses the RGB light color model for Westeros and Red,Blue, Yellow paint primary color scheme for Essos. 

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10 minutes ago, hiemal said:

Or could it be, and I'm just spitballing here, a sign of a confluence of fire and ice- the red eyes of so many we've met (Mel and Bloodraven chief among them) and the blue eyes of the Others and their minions?

And in nature animals with bright colors are a warning sign that they are poisonous. 

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2 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

yes because red and blue lights produce purple light. And Martin uses the RGB light color model for Westeros and Red,Blue, Yellow paint primary color scheme for Essos. 

Bonus spitballing and referencing re purple eyes:

GRRM references Moorcock almost as much as Lovecraft- Elric of Melnibone is even one of AA's companions as Eldric Shadowchaser and Melnibone and her inhabitants are strikingly similar to the Valyrians, down to pacts with dark forces and riding dragons. I submit that the "red" and the "blue" that produced the purple peepers represents the GEoDawnian geothermal magic that Valyria later used to tap the fourteen flames and the cold, dark mutating power of the Deep Ones (manifested in the Oily Black Stone found in places like Mantarys and in the Seastone Chairi). This represents not only the creation of dragons but the creation of dragonriders!

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4 hours ago, hiemal said:

Bonus spitballing and referencing re purple eyes:

GRRM references Moorcock almost as much as Lovecraft- Elric of Melnibone is even one of AA's companions as Eldric Shadowchaser and Melnibone and her inhabitants are strikingly similar to the Valyrians, down to pacts with dark forces and riding dragons. I submit that the "red" and the "blue" that produced the purple peepers represents the GEoDawnian geothermal magic that Valyria later used to tap the fourteen flames and the cold, dark mutating power of the Deep Ones (manifested in the Oily Black Stone found in places like Mantarys and in the Seastone Chairi). This represents not only the creation of dragons but the creation of dragonriders!

I would disagree. I am a supporter of Lucifer means Lightbringer's BSE Compendium where Azor Ahai broke the second moon with a comet which is a euphemism for bringing down a goddess, Nyssa Nyssa and thus brought the long night. 

BSE Compendium 

Also check out the tag for the next part which is the Weirwood Compendium where he purposes that Grey King of the Iron Born was a heretic greenseer. 

Weirwood Compendium

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