Nennymoans and merlings; more Patchface tinfoil

[hiemal]

6 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

I would disagree. I am a supporter of Lucifer means Lightbringer's BSE Compendium where Azor Ahai broke the second moon with a comet which is a euphemism for bringing down a goddess, Nyssa Nyssa and thus brought the long night. 

BSE Compendium 

Also check out the tag for the next part which is the Weirwood Compendium where he purposes that Grey King of the Iron Born was a heretic greenseer. 

Weirwood Compendium

I don't see those as incompatibile.

[hiemal]

12 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

I would disagree. I am a supporter of Lucifer means Lightbringer's BSE Compendium where Azor Ahai broke the second moon with a comet which is a euphemism for bringing down a goddess, Nyssa Nyssa and thus brought the long night. 

 

Specifically (now that I have some time) I think it is important to remember that there were three attempts to forge LB, and that the dragon has three heads.

We have one "sword" quenched in water- this I believe refers to a mingling of GEoDawnian and Deep One lines and to Jon Snow  in the present; one "sword" quenched in the blood of a lion- sounds like the infamous tiger bride (A Lengi from the land of 10,000 tigers and CoTF relative?) and like the child-sized lionspawn Tyrion; and our final "sword" via Nissa-Nissa, the creation of dragons both then and with Dany.

As above, so below- I believe that is the credo of our fellow, LML, and I think that it fits even better in its satanic formulation- as below, so above. Given the ambiguity about whether or not the LN marks the beginning of the off-kilter seasons or is only another in a series of world-altering catastrophes I've always considered my own tinfoils to mesh nicely with LML's wonderful essays.

[Pain killer Jane]

On 9/14/2016 at 0:36 PM, hiemal said:

Specifically (now that I have some time) I think it is important to remember that there were three attempts to forge LB, and that the dragon has three heads.

We have one "sword" quenched in water- this I believe refers to a mingling of GEoDawnian and Deep One lines and to Jon Snow  in the present; one "sword" quenched in the blood of a lion- sounds like the infamous tiger bride (A Lengi from the land of 10,000 tigers and CoTF relative?) and like the child-sized lionspawn Tyrion; and our final "sword" via Nissa-Nissa, the creation of dragons both then and with Dany.

As above, so below- I believe that is the credo of our fellow, LML, and I think that it fits even better in its satanic formulation- as below, so above. Given the ambiguity about whether or not the LN marks the beginning of the off-kilter seasons or is only another in a series of world-altering catastrophes I've always considered my own tinfoils to mesh nicely with LML's wonderful essays.

Or a violent reaction towards infection. 

But maybe with proof when you can turn those tinfoils into cohesive and testable theories. 

Note on the Tiger bride: Evolett figured that out last year in a thread. I consider Maggi the frog to be a 'tiger bride' as she was Jeyne's great grandmother and probably from Leng as her Spicer husband was a merchant by trade. So this is why Jeyne was switched in the tv show to Tulisa Meayger (Volentene family known to be Tigers with the blood of Old Valryia). And yes I hate to use the show as proof but I saw somewhere that Martin approved of the change. So since Maggy had magic and we know the Tiger Men come from Leng then we can suspect that Jeyne has within her to genetically produce a child with skinchanging abilities and then compound onto that Robb's genetic inheritance and you would have an overpowered Golden Child (nod at Eddie Murphy) and thus a super annoy and boring story line. 

And while Jeyne was not murdered and Tulisa was, Tulisa was stabbed in her womb and if she and Robb's child would have been preserved then we would have had another Jon but with a stronger claim to the North (and we can't have that now can we). 

[hiemal]

3 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Or a violent reaction towards infection. 

But maybe with proof when you can turn those tinfoils into cohesive and testable theories. 

Note on the Tiger bride: Evolett figured that out last year in a thread. I consider Maggi the frog to be a 'tiger bride' as she was Jeyne's great grandmother and probably from Leng as her Spicer husband was a merchant by trade. So this is why Jeyne was switched in the tv show to Tulisa Meayger (Volentene family known to be Tigers with the blood of Old Valryia). And yes I hate to use the show as proof but I saw somewhere that Martin approved of the change. So since Maggy had magic and we know the Tiger Men come from Leng then we can suspect that Jeyne has within her to genetically produce a child with skinchanging abilities and then compound onto that Robb's genetic inheritance and you would have an overpowered Golden Child (nod at Eddie Murphy) and thus a super annoy and boring story line. 

And while Jeyne was not murdered and Tulisa was, Tulisa was stabbed in her womb and if she and Robb's child would have been preserved then we would have had another Jon but with a stronger claim to the North (and we can't have that now can we). 

Very nicely put.

I suppose, but I'm here more to dialogue than to really convince anyone I'm right- mainly because I'm not convinced I'm right. I hold many, sometimes conflicting sets of theories woven into conspiracies to the point that pulling out a single thread and isolating it from other theories for the sake of simple presentation is often more trouble than it is worth so I've decided to embrace the crazy and go full bore with the tinfoil. YOLO, and all that.

The Tiger/Spicer idea is new to me. Something new to think about!

 

 

[LynnS]

9 hours ago, hiemal said:

Very nicely put.

I suppose, but I'm here more to dialogue than to really convince anyone I'm right- mainly because I'm not convinced I'm right. I hold many, sometimes conflicting sets of theories woven into conspiracies to the point that pulling out a single thread and isolating it from other theories for the sake of simple presentation is often more trouble than it is worth so I've decided to embrace the crazy and go full bore with the tinfoil. YOLO, and all that.

The Tiger/Spicer idea is new to me. Something new to think about!

 

 

LOL! Good on ya.  I really like it when people get excited about new ideas or different ways of thinking about things. LML has an excellent body of work to consider along with his podcasts which are also very entertaining.  Talking tinfoil is a great way to bounce ideas off others and that can be productive in surprising ways.

[LynnS]

This one has always puzzled me:

Under the sea it snows up, and the rain is dry as bone. I know. I know…

Dany when she awakes from MMD's ritual:

“Flakes of ash drifted upward from a brazier….”

And, this one:

Under the sea, the birds have scales for feathers. I know. I know…

“Drink with me, brother,” he said.  That night he wore a shirt of iron scales and a cloak of blood red silk. HIs eyepatch was red leather, his lips blue.  - The Foresaken, WoW

 

 

 

[Pain killer Jane]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

This one has always puzzled me:

Under the sea it snows up, and the rain is dry as bone. I know. I know…

Dany when she awakes from MMD's ritual:

“Flakes of ash drifted upward from a brazier….”

That reminds of me Job 5:7 

"Yet man is born to trouble, surely as sparks fly upward." 

But I have a feeling it is talking about a volcano eruption. 

 

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

Under the sea, the birds have scales for feathers. I know. I know…

“Drink with me, brother,” he said.  That night he wore a shirt of iron scales and a cloak of blood red silk. HIs eyepatch was red leather, his lips blue.  - The Foresaken, WoW

Wonderful catch!

Tinfoil time:

I have a tinfoil that Catlyn and her children have a drop of dragon blood like Brown Ben Plum. This would occur from the Lothstons; mother  (Lady Falena Stokeworth) and daughter (Lady Jeyne Lothston- especially if the rumor were true that she was Aegon IV's bastard). And we know that the Whents' (Catlyn, Lysa and Edmure's mother was a Whent) were banner men and landed knights sworn to House Lothston. So since Lady Falena was widely known to be the mistress of the king it would cast a shadow on any children born to the Lothstons so marrying their daughters to landed knights would be something they would do especially to strength their bonds with their bannermen when they were. House Whent would have blood ties to their liege lords the Lothstons and possibly have royal blood. I say it is possibly due to Mad Danelle's resemblance to the Tully girls, her late on set madness and her rumored magical abilities. If Lady Jeyne were a Targ bastard and passed on the syphilis she contracted from the king which could become congenital syphilis and we know that magical abilities can be found in the Targs (per BR) than I can suspect that Lady Danelle (note that her nickname could be Dani and she has the epithet of Mad per Mad King Aerys and his late onset madness) is related to House Whent. 

And remember that red and blue make purple and we have the Tullys with a red and blue banner with a silver fish (and I have suspicions that silver is actually Mercury and many an article has been written about the mercury levels in fish and how pregnant women should avoid them). So if that were true then Sweet Robin would be a bird with scales (both fish scales and dragon scales) and it would give another dimension to Sansa's little bird nickname given to her by the Hound and the ridiculous rumor that she escaped by turning into a wolf with bat wings (referencing her Stark heritage and her mother's Whent heritage).

My other tinfoil:

Is that Timett son Timett is also a bird with scales. People have speculated that he is an Arryn but I put forth the theory that he could be a Targ if Nettles had been pregnant for Prince Damon Targaryen, since we know that Nettles was the witch with a dragon that the Painted Dogs worshiped and then became Burned Men. But again it needs a lot of asterisks on that theory.  

[LynnS]

59 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

But I have a feeling it is talking about a volcano eruption.

Oh yes!  I keep thinking about Aeron's vision of a forest on fire behind Euron.  That would be a lot of ash rising up or raining down in the case of a volcanic eruption - dry as bone.  Stone men brings to mind Pompeii.

59 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

And remember that red and blue make purple and we have the Tullys with a red and blue banner with a silver fish (and I have suspicions that silver is actually Mercury and many an article has been written about the mercury levels in fish and how pregnant women should avoid them). So if that were true then Sweet Robin would be a bird with scales (both fish scales and dragon scales) and it would give another dimension to Sansa's little bird nickname given to her by the Hound and the ridiculous rumor that she escaped by turning into a wolf with bat wings (referencing her Stark heritage and her mother's Whent heritage).

Wow, you have a fantastic knowledge of characters and lineage.  That always eludes me and I have to rely on others to make that clear.

I'm wondering about Euron and the faction of the iron born who follow the Storm Gods instead of the Drowned God. I associate Euron with the crows (the Damphair's enemy); his moniker crow's eye sets him apart.  Then there is the Ghost of High Heart who tells us about the faceless man with a crow perched on his shoulder sporting seaweed on it's wings.  But who are the crows unless it's the CotF.  It seems to me that fish having scales instead of feathers is possibly a hint about the cotf as the agency involved with Euron's faction.

I think there is a connection since Patchface ends up at the Wall and some of his pronouncements could be applied to the CotF, the White Walkers, Jon Snow, the sea of trees, etc. as well.

[Pain killer Jane]

6 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Wow, you have a fantastic knowledge of characters and lineage.  That always eludes me and I have to rely on others to make that clear.

Thank you but I am hardly an expert. At this point it is merely speculation. I am just reasonably sure that both Lady Jeyne and her mother Lady Falena caught syphilis from the king. 

[hiemal]

1 hour ago, Pain killer Jane said:

That reminds of me Job 5:7 

"Yet man is born to trouble, surely as sparks fly upward." 

But I have a feeling it is talking about a volcano eruption. 

 

Wonderful catch!

Tinfoil time:

I have a tinfoil that Catlyn and her children have a drop of dragon blood like Brown Ben Plum. This would occur from the Lothstons; mother  (Lady Falena Stokeworth) and daughter (Lady Jeyne Lothston- especially if the rumor were true that she was Aegon IV's bastard). And we know that the Whents' (Catlyn, Lysa and Edmure's mother was a Whent) were banner men and landed knights sworn to House Lothston. So since Lady Falena was widely known to be the mistress of the king it would cast a shadow on any children born to the Lothstons so marrying their daughters to landed knights would be something they would do especially to strength their bonds with their bannermen when they were. House Whent would have blood ties to their liege lords the Lothstons and possibly have royal blood. I say it is possibly due to Mad Danelle's resemblance to the Tully girls, her late on set madness and her rumored magical abilities. If Lady Jeyne were a Targ bastard and passed on the syphilis she contracted from the king which could become congenital syphilis and we know that magical abilities can be found in the Targs (per BR) than I can suspect that Lady Danelle (note that her nickname could be Dani and she has the epithet of Mad per Mad King Aerys and his late onset madness) is related to House Whent. 

And remember that red and blue make purple and we have the Tullys with a red and blue banner with a silver fish (and I have suspicions that silver is actually Mercury and many an article has been written about the mercury levels in fish and how pregnant women should avoid them). So if that were true then Sweet Robin would be a bird with scales (both fish scales and dragon scales) and it would give another dimension to Sansa's little bird nickname given to her by the Hound and the ridiculous rumor that she escaped by turning into a wolf with bat wings (referencing her Stark heritage and her mother's Whent heritage).

My other tinfoil:

Is that Timett son Timett is also a bird with scales. People have speculated that he is an Arryn but I put forth the theory that he could be a Targ if Nettles had been pregnant for Prince Damon Targaryen, since we know that Nettles was the witch with a dragon that the Painted Dogs worshiped and then became Burned Men. But again it needs a lot of asterisks on that theory.  

That is some wondrous shiny tinfoil! Love 'em!

[Pain killer Jane]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I'm wondering about Euron and the faction of the iron born who follow the Storm Gods instead of the Drowned God. I associate Euron with the crows (the Damphair's enemy); his moniker crow's eye sets him apart.  Then there is the Ghost of High Heart who tells us about the faceless man with a crow perched on his shoulder sporting seaweed on it's wings.  But who are the crows unless it's the CotF.  It seems to me that fish having scales instead of feathers is possibly a hint about the cotf as the agency involved with Euron's faction.

It could be the heretic greenseers. 

Take a look at the list of mountain clans from the Vale (Mountain of the Moons) and think of LmL's premise that the meteors are representative of stone dragons but they could also be stone crows. 

Blacks Ears- not sure on this one

Burned Men- remember that they were originally painted dogs transformed when they worshiped a fire witch and her dragon.

Painted Dogs- this is the direct translation of the name Lycoan Pictus or the African wild dog but an alternative name for them is painted wolf. It was once believed to be a hybrid between a leopard and a wolf and yes there are wolves in Africa. And the word Lycoan means "wolf-like". This is probably why you have skinchangers wargs (wolf) and then Tiger Men (from Leng) and Arya who can warg both wolves and cats naturally versus Varramyr's domination. 

Howlers- For me this brings up the howler monkeys that were demons on Victarion's ship and Tyrion's epithet of monkey demon. 

Milk Snakes- Sweetmilk while it is good in doses can be used as a poison to kill and we know the association of poison, snakes and the Targaryens.

Moon Brothers- self explanatory

Redsmiths- Azor Ahai

Sons of the Mist- the victims of greyscale which Ysilla tells Tyrion that the drowned Valyrians create the fog but before that Haldon tells Tyrion that foul humors lurk in the fog. 

Sons of the Tree- self explanatory

Stone Crows-  you have BR who is a powerful warg that is associated with crows and dragons (per his Targaryen hertiage) then we can take a leap and say that while he is a Blood Raven he is also a Stone Crow. And if the Grey King was a heretic and powerful greenseer who was painted dog, a crow and a swordfish then his stealing of the fire from the gods and taking Nagga's living fire can be viewed as turning into a burned men which is LmL's premise. So I present this quote from Davos III, aCoK

Quote

It was Swordfish, her two banks of oars lifting and falling. She had never brought down her sails, and some burning pitch had caught in her rigging. The flames spread as Davos watched, creeping out over ropes and sails until she trailed a head of yellow flame. Her ungainly iron ram, fashioned after the likeness of the fish from which she took her name, parted the surface of the river before her. Directly ahead, drifting toward her and swinging around to present a tempting plump target, was one of the Lannister hulks, floating low in the water. Slow green blood was leaking out between her boards.

.......Davos Seaworth's heart stopped beating....

No," he said. "No, NOOOOOO!" Above the roar and crash of battle, no one heard him but Matthos. Certainly the captain of the Swordfish did not, intent as he was on finally spearing something with his ungainly fat sword. The Swordfish went to battle speed......

With a grinding, splintering, tearing crash, Swordfish split the rotted hulk asunder. She burst like an overripe fruit, but no fruit had ever screamed that shattering wooden scream. From inside her Davos saw green gushing from a thousand broken jars, poison from the entrails of a dying beast, glistening, shining, spreading across the surface of the river . . .

......Davos felt the deck move under his feet as Black Betha pushed free of White Hart.  

Swordfish and the hulk were gone, blackened bodies were floating downstream beside him, and choking men clinging to bits of smoking wood. Fifty feet high, a swirling demon of green flame danced upon the river. It had a dozen hands, in each a whip, and whatever they touched burst into fire. He saw Black Betha burning, and White Hart and Loyal Man to either side. Piety, Cat, Courageous, Sceptre, Red Raven, Harridan, Faithful, Fury, they had all gone up, Kingslander and Godsgrace as well, the demon was eating his own. Lord Velaryon's shining Pride of Driftmark was trying to turn, but the demon ran a lazy green finger across her silvery oars and they flared up like so many tapers. For an instant she seemed to be stroking the river with two banks of long bright torches.

The Blackwater itself seemed to boil in its bed, and burning spars and burning men and pieces of broken ships filled the air.

I want to point out two quotes:

"the demon was eating his own" - Patchface makes a reference to old fish eating the young fish. While cannibalism is hidden under the surface in Westeros this could be a direct reference to Pike fish that are known for their cannibalism. And a reference to the Toland sigil of a dragon eating his own tail. But there are something called shipworms which are salt water clams that eat submerged wood and if Ironborn are both stone crows and stone dragons then they can be seen as attacking their own. 

"the demon ran a lazy green finger across her silvery oars" - which ties into your earlier comment about a forest behind Euron on fire and goes into LmL's fire on top of silver (the weirwood trees). 

[Pain killer Jane]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I'm wondering about Euron and the faction of the iron born who follow the Storm Gods instead of the Drowned God. I associate Euron with the crows (the Damphair's enemy); his moniker crow's eye sets him apart.  Then there is the Ghost of High Heart who tells us about the faceless man with a crow perched on his shoulder sporting seaweed on it's wings.  But who are the crows unless it's the CotF.  It seems to me that fish having scales instead of feathers is possibly a hint about the cotf as the agency involved with Euron's faction.

I think there is a connection since Patchface ends up at the Wall and some of his pronouncements could be applied to the CotF, the White Walkers, Jon Snow, the sea of trees, etc. as well.

I also wanted to add that the Grey King in the context that he was a powerful warg that could skinchange many animals then he is reminiscent of Periclymenus who could transform into many animals. He specifically used a lion, an ant, a snake, a swarm of bees and an eagle in his fight against Herakles/Hercules. But he was also an Argonaut (a sailor on the ship Argos) and his father was Neleus, a son of Poseidon and his mother was named Chloris (pale greenish yellow underworld nymph). Neleus was banished when he and his twin brother fought for the crown and he became King of Pylos.  

[LynnS]

6 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

It could be the heretic greenseers.

Wow!  Thank you for that fascinating post and putting together all that information.  I LOVE the fiery demon running a lazy finger across the silvery oars and the green blood oozing from the belly of the beast!   I did read the fiery greenseers OP; but I'll look at it again since you've reframed it so neatly.  

 

[Pain killer Jane]

15 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Wow!  Thank you for that fascinating post and putting together all that information.  I LOVE the fiery demon running a lazy finger across the silvery oars and the green blood oozing from the belly of the beast!   I did read the fiery greenseers OP; but I'll look at it again since you've reframed it so neatly.  

 

Thank You. I am glad you followed that. Btw I love your Karstark avatar. The Karstarks are a fascinating family as they are dying white star wolves because their actual sigil is a sunburst which could be both a white dwarf star and a supernova.

I wrote this on the thread Arya Stark & Good Queen Alysanne

Quote

I was talking to LmL about the Alys and Sigorn wedding. Alys is also the daughter of a dying star. The Karstark sigil is a white sunburst on a black background and their motto is The Sun of Winter. This combined with the fact that they are called white star wolves, I took to mean that the sigil is both a supernova and a white dwarf star. The former is a violent death of a star and the latter is the gradual death of a star. 

Sigorn's father Styr fights with a weirwood spear tipped in bronze and arguably since Martin uses swords and spears as euphemism for penis, Sigorn is a part of this weirwood spear and his action of piercing Alys of the dying white star is violent because it results in blood and will result in a new star. Hence the sigil for House Thenn while described as a copper disk burning in the flames of R'hllor actually is a new sun. Now if this union actually helps the political situation even more we shall see. I believe it will but there have been other clues that the piercing of a dying star actually diseased the population.  

Not to mention that the Karstarks are headed towards death on both sides of the killing field. 

This is an echo of the origin of House Nymeros Martell. Nymeria's sun being pierced by the Martell spear. 

 

[LynnS]

27 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

I wrote this on the thread Arya Stark & Good Queen Alysanne

Oh thank you.  I will have something to read tonight! 

I used to look for white dwarf stars with red dwarf binaries on the Sloan Digital Sky Survey as part of the Galaxy Zoo Project and I occasionally came upon novae spectral signatures.

I like the Karstark sigil, the Sun (son) of Winter. If Jon had a personal sigil, that would be it.

[Pain killer Jane]

14 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Oh thank you.  I will have something to read tonight! 

I used to look for white dwarf stars with red dwarf binaries on the Sloan Digital Sky Survey as part of the Galaxy Zoo Project and I occasionally came upon novae spectral signatures.

I like the Karstark sigil, the Sun (son) of Winter. If Jon had a personal sigil, that would be it.

That is awesome. And you are so right about Jon. I personally see that sun wrapped with a dragon.....

[LmL]

On September 13, 2016 at 4:26 PM, Pain killer Jane said:

for me the purple crystals of Sansa's hairnet are a joke because amethysts are literally named 'not intoxicated' and were used to protect be from intoxication but in the story they are used to deliver poison to the king which when you think about it Joffrey died of alcohol poisoning. Hence the amethyst purpose was inverted. 

The poison used is the Stranger which is a characteristic associated with both vines (in this case grape vines) and snakes.  

The second thing is the purple eyes of Valyrians who are snakes/dragons and the madness that shows up quite frequently is a corruption of their genes and should right be viewed as poisoned blood. 

The silver too could be viewed as poison because quicksilver or Mercury and we know the toxicity of mercury.

Edit: 

The creation of the Anemone was that Venus mixed her dead lover's blood with nectar and up sprang the flower. Corrupted blood in a sense.

Oh man, I am so mad, I left a long comment back on page one somewhere and it seems to not have gone through. Argh! @hiemal, great thread. I'm going to start going through and responding to various comments, as I've read through the thread now. 

Sansa's harnet is a terrific, multi-level symbol of meteor dragons (or snakes) coming from the moon. First, Sansa is a moon maiden, with hair kissed by fire. When she lets it free, it tumbles down like a red river - a river of fire. The silver hairnet keeps her river of fire in place, and silver is first and foremost a moon color. When she removes the hairnet. the silver is gone from the moon maiden and a river of fire cascades down. 

 

The amethysts callout to the Amethyst Empress. I suspect AE and the BSE to come from Asshai, just as the black amethysts do. The amethysts are so dark they seem to drink the moonlight, and as readers of my claptrap know, drinking the light is an important quality of the moon meteors - in the Qarthine myth, they drink the fire of the sun, for example. The specific description of purple so dark it looks black except by certain lighting is a match for the eyes of Darkstar, exactly, down to the letter. Dragster himself is a walking Bloodstone Emperor / evil AA symbol, and the phrase dark star is kind of self explanatory since we are talking about a sun that went dark. 

The amethysts are poisonous, just as the black moon meteors seem to be poisonous. The GOHH seems them as purple snakes, completing the idea and connecting them to dragons. Making something black often is an indicator if conversion, and you mentioned the inversion of the amethysts "properties."

Joffrey is a solar king, whose face is LITERALLY darkened by the poison snake moon jewels. It couldn't be any more vivid... the moon meteors landed, threw up smoke and debris, and darkened the sky, turning the sun purple and black.   

So, when you said 

Quote

The creation of the Anemone was that Venus mixed her dead lover's blood with nectar and up sprang the flower. Corrupted blood in a sense.

I sat up and took notice. The dragon meteor children of the moon disaster are associated with morningstar mythology (Venus mythology), so if the anemone is made form the blood of Venus's dead lover... in ASOIAF, Venus's dead lover is AA, the dark (inverted) solar king. He represents the reborn dark sun and also the moon meteors themselves, which is also what Sansa's amethysts (her nennymnoans) represent, moon meteors. 

 

[LmL]

On September 13, 2016 at 6:31 AM, Little Scribe of Naath said:

That's a good interpretation! The whole "green, blue, black" colour scheme of the sea is the same as the colours of the Drowned Men:

So the DG version of the Old Gods' sacrifices and Red God sacrifices might be this -  drowning of boys so that the "old fish" can eat them. 

Hmm...I don't know...there are lots of hints that the underwater creatures and the Children were enemies.

I've somehow always wondered about the origin of the IB's phrase "What is dead, may never die, but rises again harder and stronger" --> Is it related to the Others in some way?

Quite a few times in this series, people who have drowned and been rescued have been described as extremely cold to the touch:

 

Ok, this might be brilliant @Little Scribe from Naath  I absolutely link Patchface to the truth of the original drowned man and the reality of the Ironborn mythology (like most other people here). And Ironborn mythology is all about the drowning of fire from heaven, and the emergence of that fire from the sea - that's one of the major premises of my last episode on the Ironborn and the Grey King. Thus, connecting the underwater flame Patchface talks about with the drowned men themselves is PERFECT, it's total tits. I'm going to explain this in a moment, but first, I want to remark on the old fish / young fish..

I think this is indeed talking about sacrificing children to old beings, whether it be giving children to the Others or babies to the Deep Ones / Squishers / Merlings. In Lovecraftian lore the Deep Ones are typically involved coming ashore and raping women to make half breeds, and also for having human babies sacrificed to them. George hints at this with Nimble Dick's talk of the Squishers eating children. Many have noticed that "rising again harder and stronger" really does sound like the wight process, and then there's this line from AFFC:

 

Dark wings, dark words. “The ravens fly o’er salt and stone. If there are tidings that concern me, speak them now.”

“Such tidings as we bear are for your ears alone, Damphair,” the Sparr said. “These are not matters I would speak of here before these others.”

“ These others are my drowned men, god’s servants, just as I am. I have no secrets from them, nor from our god, beside whose holy sea I stand.”

And how does Aeron emerge fro the sea?

And gaunt and pale and shivering, Aeron Damphair struggled back to the shore, a wiser man than he had been when he stepped into the sea. For he had found the answer in his bones, and the way was plain before him. The night was so cold that his body seemed to steam as he stalked back toward his shelter, but there was a fire burning in his heart, and sleep came easily for once, unbroken by the scream of iron hinges.

The Others are also pale and cold, and they have a kind of internal fire - the blue star fire that burns in their eyes. But it burns cold, so this may not be an exact match. Dany also emerges form the Womb of the World in the exact same fashion - pale and cold, but with an inner fire. This is all moon-drowning stuff, which is what the Iron Islands are all about.

So let me get to that, sum up the idea in brief. The sea dragon, according to me, represents a dragon meteor which lands in the sea. Pretty straightforward, right? If meteors and comets are dragons in myth speak and in ASOIAF (they are), then a sea dragon could be a meteor that lands in the sea. That would absolutely "drown whole islands," as the sea dragon is said to, because meteor impacts in the ocean trigger huge tsunamis. One of my favorite symbolic passage is this form the first Ironborn chapter:

The point of land on which the Greyjoys had raised their fortress had once thrust like a sword into the bowels of the ocean, but the waves had hammered at it day and night until the land broke and shattered, thousands of years past.  All that remained were three bare and barren islands and a dozen towering stacks of rock that rose from the water like the pillars of some sea god’s temple, while the angry waves foamed and crashed among them. 

I go into more detail in my essay, but the point is that the land itself is like a point and like a sword which thrust into the sea. What lies at the point of this broken sword? Well, the Castle Pyke, which means the sestina chair - an oily black stone which may be a meteorite. The castle itself is described in the next paragraph:

The Sea Tower rose from the outmost island at the point of the broken sword, the oldest part of the castle, round and tall, the sheer- sided pillar on which it stood half- eaten through by the endless battering of the waves. The base of the tower was white from centuries of salt spray, the upper stories green from the lichen that crawled over it like a thick blanket, the jagged crown black with soot from its nightly watchfire.

White, green, and black, like Dany's dragons, and the black crown to symbolize the dark solar king. The black crown lights up with fire at night, just like Lightbringer, which makes sense since this is the tip of the sword land which thrust into the bowels of the ocean, thousands of years in the past.

Did I mention that this entire scene takes place as the red comet hangs in the sky overhead?

Yeah. So that's the first part of it - a fiery sword thrust into the sea, which was the sea dragon, and that broke and drowned the land. This is what the drowned god is - a drowned goddess, as in a drowned moon goddess. The moon is a goddess, woman-wife of the sun (it is known), and when she falls from the sky and drowns, she becomes a drowned goddess.  But this was a moon associated with fiery dragons, so this is a fiery drowned goddess. That is why the Ironborn have all these ideas about fire coming out of the sea. 

The comet is compared to a burning brand carried out of the ocean, which is a great example of what I am talking about:

“Every morning brings a new day, much like the old.” 

“In Riverrun, they would tell you different.  They say the red comet is a herald of a new age.  A messenger from the gods.”

“A sign it is,” the priest agreed, “but from our god, not theirs. A burning brand it is, such as our people carried of old. It is the flame the Drowned God brought from the sea, and it proclaims a rising tide.  It is time to hoist our sails and go forth into the world with fire and sword, as he did.” 

The Drowned God possesses fire, as I said, and it is the fire of the red comet, of lightbringer. There's even the idea of the drowned god going out with fire and sword, which is great, especially when you just compared the drowned god's fire to the red comet, symbol of Lightbringer. Curiously, there is apparently a version of the Azor Ahai reborn story Stannis has heard which we have not, and he refers to it in ASOS:

His hand swept across the Painted Table. “How many boys dwell in Westeros? How many girls? How many men, how many women? The darkness will devour them all, she says. The night that never ends. She talks of prophecies … a hero reborn in the sea, living dragons hatched from dead stone … she speaks of signs and swears they point to me.”  

One of those lines nobody ever talks about, but what the hell? Reborn in the sea? It jibes with my theory very well: Azor Ahai reborn represents the moon meteor dragons, at least one of which landed in the sea and became the sea dragon. But it didn't just stay in the sea, it seems to reemerge - that's what the idea of the Drowned God coming from the sea with fire that resembles the comet is all about. Nagga too rises form the sea, and then the Grey King possesses her fire, so again we have fire being carried out of the sea. If the sea dragon was a black meteor as I suggest, then carrying her fire out of the sea means recovering the meteorite and using it. There's evidence the Ironborn did just that, but it's a bit of a digression. The point is that the Grey King is also said to have emerged form the sea, and he possessed the fire of Nagga, who also comes from the Sea, and the Drowned God comes form the sea, and HE has fire, and, and... 

You get the idea. Check out this line:

“Seek the hill of Nagga and the bones of the Grey King’s Hall, for in that holy place when the moon has drowned and come again we shall make ourselves a worthy king, a godly king.” He raised his bony hands on high again. “Listen! Listen to the waves! Listen to the god! He is speaking to us, and he says, We shall have no king but from the kingsmoot! ” 

The moon which drowns is the sea dragon moon meteor, which represents AA reborn and Lightbringer (the sword and wielder being essentially one). The moon drowns, but comes again, like I have been saying - AA is supposed to be reborn in the sea, remember? That's why we make a godly king (or a god-king?) when the drowned moon comes again.

So, Patchface, Patchface. The one with the birds having scales under the sea? I say that's sea dragon talk! Scaled birds under the sea, that's the sea dragon. He also speaks of underwater fire and smoke - I mean what's with that? Why is the fire under water? Because the drowned god is drowned fire, that's why. Sea dragon, drowned god, same deal. That's why your catch, @Little Scribe of Naath, about the colors of the underwater fire resembling the drowned men is so awesome - it makes sense of the colors of the underwater fire, and color symbolism is a MOTHERFUCKER, let me tell you. I avoid it whenever possible. I stick to black and red, I know what that means, otherwise... fuck. It's so subjective. But I do like this, because Aeron talks about the drowned men carrying burning brands in old times, in imitation of the Drowned God presumably. They represent the fire come from the sea, in a transformed way.

So, that's the thing about this whole process - this is basically the tempering of a sword in water. The sea dragon is a flaming hot meteor sword, symbolic of Lightbringer, and it thrusts into the bowels of the ocean, TSSSSSSSSSS.... and when it comes out... black steel. Cold black steel. The oily black "seastone" is a symbol of this, as are the Valyrian steel swords which are so dark as to be almost black. Ned's is my favorite: it's called Ice, and it's black. That's what I think all this is about the Ironborn carrying fire out of the sea which is like a weapon and which is compared to the red comet - we are talking about making swords with black meteors. From TWOIAF:

“And when battle was joined upon the shores, mighty kings and famous warriors fell before the reavers like wheat before a scythe, in such numbers that the men of the green lands told each other that the Ironborn were demons risen from some watery hell, protected by fell sorceries and possessed of foul black weapons that drank the very souls of those they slew.”

  Lightbringer drank Nissa Nissa's blood and soul, according to legend, and I really honestly think that the Ironborn has this technology. They might have chipped stone off of the Seastone Chair and melted it down to make iron ore. I believe this ties into the idea that the Ironborn may've descended from people who were not First Men (I like to call them "pirates from Asshai"), but that's another topic. 

 

 

 

[LmL]

On September 13, 2016 at 0:25 PM, hiemal said:

I think so as well- what I am unclear on is whether the Deep Ones and the merlings are the same thing. From what I've seen, I think a case could be made that merlings, selkies, and walrus-men represent a watery branch from the Children's terrestrial tree -or- that the merlings are either the Deep Ones themselves or the products of some kind of hideous Shadow-Over-Innsmouth-esque breeding project (looking at YOU, squishers).

That could be- it always puts me in mind of Lovecraft's

“That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die.”

 

 

In a wilder moment of tinfoil, another friend and myself speculated that there were two types of mer-folk, and that before the Arm of Dorne was broken, the two were essentially cut off from each other. We have selkie and merling legends in northern Essos and the Shivering Sea, and also on the east coast of Westeros (think of Driftmark belonging to the Merling King, or the Sisterton people, Crackclaw legends of squishers, etc.). On the west coast, we have those Deep One motherfuckers. When the Arm was broken, the wall came down, and underwater race war ensued. The result was a bunch of zombie merlings with blue eyes in the Shivering Sea like TWOIAF says there is. Dead things in the water.

/crackpot

Alternately, we know from Lovecraft and ASOIAF that meteors can be evil and toxic and whatnot. If one landed in the sea... maybe it triggered a mutation of the Deep Ones, causing them to come ashore and have their way with the pitiful humans. I by have their way, I mean... yeah, like that. Squish squish. Sorry, that was gross. Anyway. Point is, maybe the sea dragon meteor affected the Deep Ones. 

[Pain killer Jane]

39 minutes ago, LmL said:

Sansa's harnet is a terrific, multi-level symbol of meteor dragons (or snakes) coming from the moon. First, Sansa is a moon maiden, with hair kissed by fire. When she lets it free, it tumbles down like a red river - a river of fire.

I find it interesting that it is net at all on a girl that is half fish...I often thought whether if it was a reference to Indra's net.

Since we are on the subject of poison a note about the gowns made of silver seaweed, since the song has all this death imagery I suspected that the gowns were akin to the poisoned gown delivered by Medea to the new wife of Jason and she also sent her a coronet that was poisoned as well. 

Plus you also have the Shirt of Nessus that had a combination of the blood of a centaur and the poisoned blood of the hydra and then was used to kill Heracles by his wife Deianira. 

9 hours ago, hiemal said:

That is some wondrous shiny tinfoil! Love 'em!

 

8 minutes ago, LmL said:

(I like to call them "pirates from Asshai"), but that's another topic. 

What about the cartoon Pirates of the Dark Water?