Nennymoans and merlings; more Patchface tinfoil

[LmL]

41 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Just when I thought I couldn't love Wyman Manderly and Wylla any more This is them in story right now. I love this.

Oh, and I am finishing the last half of your Grey King cast today. I have tried twice and keep getting pulled away. Damn reality

Awesome! The second half is where the newer ideas are - the first half is more elucidation of the sea dragon idea which I have referred to many times. The last half gets a little freaky, so I will look forward to your take when you finish.  Thanks for inviting me into your earbuds!

[Equilibrium]

@LmLBut then again, Steffon, the father is the drowned Baratheon, white is background in Strong and Massey sigils, Trident is created from Red/Blue/Green Fork and there is a thing called theory of evolution Martin has certainly heard about, so it is possible that magic somehow came from the sea dwellers. It's not likely, but it is possible

Better answer to your question would be that all squisher and Deep Ones myth comes from the areas of defused coast with lots of islands or groups of islands (Iron Islands, Thousand Islands, Claw, Sisters) and we think Iron Islands were peninsula or large single island but were drowned and fragmented by rising sea levels, floods and impact. What if all other places were also affected with floods or rising sea levels, and they were one part of greater land mass, so that are the places were greenseers were, and then they transformed to survive their new undersea caves or something. We think Others reproduce by taking humans, so squishers could do it also.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

6 hours ago, hiemal said:

That's one of my million dollar questions- the inversion effect. My best explaination is the Patchface-as-the-anti-Ariel tinfoil I have detailed elsewhere (basically Patchface is a mythic combination of Shakespeare's Ariel (a spirit of the air from the Tempest) and the Little Mermaid (Disney's more than Denmark's for the song). Sea+Air=storm/ and the inversion is a representation of the waterline seen from below, perhaps?

I was wondering if the "under the sea, you fall up" quote refers to floating from the depths of the sea to the surface, but still no idea what  "snow falls up and the rain is as dry as bone" could mean. It's an oxymoron - "rain" as "dry as bone"? 

[Little Scribe of Naath]

7 hours ago, LmL said:

What do you think of the comparison between Yeen and Moat Cailin? Both made of huge, like really huge square cut blocks of black stone. Both in the jungle / swamp. Yeen is said to be oily black stone, while Theon observes MC after a rain in ADWD and think that the black basalt blocks appear to be coated in some fine black oil. I do not think the FM could have built MC - the cottage sized blocks are stacked up 50 high to make a curtain wall, well beyond ring fort technology, you know? And across the midsection of Westeros, we find traces of the aquatic religion of sea and sky gods - Ironborn, Sisterton, Durrandon myth, and the froggy crannogmen also suggest possible fishy ancestry. MC was likely built before the Neck was a samp, or else how do you lift blocks? You need said ground for leverage, unless the answer is just magic.  Could Yeen and MC have been built by the same people, or fish people?

I had posted this somewhere else, but I think MC was definitely built by the half-fish people. The entire scene in Theon, ADWD has a feel of some kind of callback to a historical event:

 

The description of Moat Cailin - 

Quote

The air was wet and heavy, and shallow pools of water dotted the ground. Reek picked his way between them carefully, following the remnants of the log-and-plank road that Robb Stark's vanguard had laid down across the soft ground to speed the passage of his host. Where once a mighty curtain wall had stood, only scattered stones remained, blocks of black basalt so large it must once have taken a hundred men to hoist them into place.Some had sunk so deep into the bog that only a corner showed; others lay strewn about like some god's abandoned toys, cracked and crumbling, spotted with lichen. Last night's rain had left the huge stones wet and glistening, and the morning sunlight made them look as if they were coated in some fine black oil.

A call back to the oily black stone which Asshai, Yeen, the Seastone Chair, etc have been made of. In Yeen, similar wording is used -

Quote

Yeen is built entirely of oily black stone, in blocks so large it would require a dozen elephants to move them.

 

Callback to the Children of the Forest, same chapter:

Quote

He was being watched. He could feel the eyes. When he looked up, he caught a glimpse of pale faces peering from behind the battlements of the Gatehouse Tower and through the broken masonry that crowned the Children's Tower, where legend said the children of the forest had once called down the hammer of the waters to break the lands of Westeros in two. 

 

Inside the tower were the Ironborn - specifically the Codds, who serve as the callback to the Deep Ones.

Quote

"Is that a threat?" One of the Codds pushed to his feet. A big man, but pop-eyed and wide of mouth, with dead white flesh. He looked as if his father had sired him on a fish, but he still wore a longsword. "Dagon Codd yields to no man.

The half-fish men hiding inside the black, oily stone tower while fighting against the Children-esque crannogmen....something jumped off that entire passage to me.

 

[LynnS]

18 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

I was wondering if the "under the sea, you fall up" quote refers to floating from the depths of the sea to the surface, but still no idea what  "snow falls up and the rain is as dry as bone" could mean. It's an oxymoron - "rain" as "dry as bone"? 

I thought the same about floating upwards.  Also 'falling' up could be flying.

 Snow falls up or rains down - white ashes from a massive fire floating upwards or raining downwards - dry as bone

Possibly even a reference to Jon Snow learning to fly as in either skin changing a bird or using the third eye to watch from above.

Possibly even a double meaning for "the crows are white as snow".  Either the White Walkers are the crows that are white as snow and/or that Jon Snow will be wighted after a fashion.

The under the sea connotation could refer to squid; with their beaks, crows of the sea.  Humboldt squid are pretty dangerous and they change colors green and blue.  The deep ones, I take it to be Kraken.  I can just see HBO fan reaction to 'release the Kraken!".   

[LmL]

22 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I thought the same about floating upwards.  Also 'falling' up could be flying.

 Snow falls up or rains down - white ashes from a massive fire floating upwards or raining downwards - dry as bone

Possibly even a reference to Jon Snow learning to fly as in either skin changing a bird or using the third eye to watch from above.

Possibly even a double meaning for "the crows are white as snow".  Either the White Walkers are the crows that are white as snow and/or that Jon Snow will be wighted after a fashion.

The under the sea connotation could refer to squid; with their beaks, crows of the sea.  Humboldt squid are pretty dangerous and they change colors green and blue.  The deep ones, I take it to be Kraken.  I can just see HBO fan reaction to 'release the Kraken!".   

I agree that dry rain is likely to be ash, that much I can say. 

[LmL]

29 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

I had posted this somewhere else, but I think MC was definitely built by the half-fish people. The entire scene in Theon, ADWD has a feel of some kind of callback to a historical event:

 

The description of Moat Cailin - 

A call back to the oily black stone which Asshai, Yeen, the Seastone Chair, etc have been made of. In Yeen, similar wording is used -

 

Callback to the Children of the Forest, same chapter:

 

Inside the tower were the Ironborn - specifically the Codds, who serve as the callback to the Deep Ones.

The half-fish men hiding inside the black, oily stone tower while fighting against the Children-esque crannogmen....something jumped off that entire passage to me.

 

Thanks for grabbing all those quotes, some of my favorites. And yes, that's exactly what I was talking about - the descriptions of the blocks. And the thing about the Codds is pretty great, because of corse Dagon was a Sumerian fish-man God, perhaps the first of his kind in world mythology. You're probably right that MC being inhabited by Dagon the sired-on-a-fish man is probably meant as a clue. 

North of the Wall, we hear that there are two kinds of people from the frozen shore: antler men and walrus men, and the two "love each other not." Another poster pointed out in an essay that here is a running theme of antler people vs. fish people. Garth the sower vs. Ironborn as reapers, and so on. 

[hiemal]

1 hour ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

I was wondering if the "under the sea, you fall up" quote refers to floating from the depths of the sea to the surface, but still no idea what  "snow falls up and the rain is as dry as bone" could mean. It's an oxymoron - "rain" as "dry as bone"? 

Perhaps the rain is bubbles of air and the snow is superheated water from a volcanic vent?

[Pain killer Jane]

On 9/17/2016 at 11:16 AM, LmL said:

Yes, yes, and yes. I agree, she has a ton of sea dragon imagery about her, and that's the same thing as the drowned god / goddess. She was born on a rock in the sea, while a storm raged. She drowns herself in the Womb of the World in a scene where the actual moon floats on the water, "shattering and reforming" as the reflected image on the water is broken by the ripples. Dany is a drowned moon maiden, in other words, and yes, she's reborn in the Dothraki "Sea." Euron definitely sees her as a new Amethyst Empress, whose power he wants to usurp and steal in all likelihood. 

So I was re listening to your podcasts and in the first one you talk about Dany's dream about being the last the last dragon and her associations with black blood. I noticed that it specifically says that she was armored in black armor. We have the instance of Bran dreaming of "a giant in armour made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood". Everyone thinks it is the mountain and/or the titan of Braavos. Then we have Ser Robert Strong and his black blood. Jon and his armor of black ice dream. Euron and his Valyrian steel armor. Balon Blackskin and then Mad Danelle Lothston and her black armor. 

[hiemal]

38 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

So I was re listening to your podcasts and in the first one you talk about Dany's dream about being the last the last dragon and her associations with black blood. I noticed that it specifically says that she was armored in black armor. We have the instance of Bran dreaming of "a giant in armour made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood". Everyone thinks it is the mountain and/or the titan of Braavos. Then we have Ser Robert Strong and his black blood. Jon and his armor of black ice dream. Euron and his Valyrian steel armor. Balon Blackskin and then Mad Danelle Lothston and her black armor. 

I  assumed that was meant to be King Robert, who stood over the Hound and the Kingslayer, and that Bran was forseeing his death. I never had an answer as to why his armor was made of stone, however so both ideas are of interest.

[LmL]

I feel confident that the giant in stone armor with only darkness and black blood behind his visor is Gregor. Gregor is described in stony terms a lot, and he is of course called the Mountain. His blood turns black after the Viper sticks him and Robert Strong does not have Gregor's head (hence the empty helm). 

The black blood is a symbolic motif which I believe refers to fire transformation, with the original occurrence of this being the moon and Nissa Nissa. All of the black blood occurrences can be explained by this hypothesis IMO. 

[Pain killer Jane]

3 minutes ago, LmL said:

I feel confident that the giant in stone armor with only darkness and black blood behind his visor is Gregor. Gregor is described in stony terms a lot, and he is of course called the Mountain. His blood turns black after the Viper sticks him and Robert Strong does not have Gregor's head (hence the empty helm). 

The black blood is a symbolic motif which I believe refers to fire transformation, with the original occurrence of this being the moon and Nissa Nissa. All of the black blood occurrences can be explained by this hypothesis IMO. 

So those with black blood and black armor are the blackened meteors? 

[LmL]

1 hour ago, Pain killer Jane said:

So those with black blood and black armor are the blackened meteors? 

That's the idea. The meteors are both "bleeding stars" and "bloodstones," and they are also a symbol of Lightbringer (the bloody sword), and with the idea of moon blood. The moon bleeds stars, a flood of bleeding stars, etc. It's both an iron tide and a blood tide, which is why the Ironborn make great meteor symbols. You'll notice the Ironborn roasted at Harrenhall by dragonfire - a symbol of the moon's burning - was Harren Hoare, of the black blood line. The NW represent the crow aspect of the meteors - dark wings, dark words, if you will - and in Jons dream of being Azor Ahai on the Wall, the crows with him are on fire and tumble down from the sky  - literally burning crows with black blood falling from the place where Lightbringer is kicking ass and taking names. Jon kills Ygritte in this dream... I talked about this in me second episode I believe it was.

We see black blood when Mel has the fire inside her, searing her and transforming her, as she has her fire vision in ADWD, and also bleeds black blood when she births the shadow baby. Beric bleeds black blood as well, and he's a transformed-by-fire Azor Ahai symbol. One that sits in a weirwood chair, but I digress. 

Drogon the black dragon, perhaps he best symbol of Lightbringer in the books, bleeds black blood.  

[Pain killer Jane]

32 minutes ago, LmL said:

That's the idea. The meteors are both "bleeding stars" and "bloodstones," and they are also a symbol of Lightbringer (the bloody sword), and with the idea of moon blood. The moon bleeds stars, a flood of bleeding stars, etc. It's both an iron tide and a blood tide, which is why the Ironborn make great meteor symbols. You'll notice the Ironborn roasted at Harrenhall by dragonfire - a symbol of the moon's burning - was Harren Hoare, of the black blood line. The NW represent the crow aspect of the meteors - dark wings, dark words, if you will - and in Jons dream of being Azor Ahai on the Wall, the crows with him are on fire and tumble down from the sky  - literally burning crows with black blood falling from the place where Lightbringer is kicking ass and taking names. Jon kills Ygritte in this dream... I talked about this in me second episode I believe it was.

We see black blood when Mel has the fire inside her, searing her and transforming her, as she has her fire vision in ADWD, and also bleeds black blood when she births the shadow baby. Beric bleeds black blood as well, and he's a transformed-by-fire Azor Ahai symbol. One that sits in a weirwood chair, but I digress. 

Drogon the black dragon, perhaps he best symbol of Lightbringer in the books, bleeds black blood.  

I feel stupid for asking because you clearly pointed that out. 

[LmL]

2 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

I feel stupid for asking because you clearly pointed that out. 

No need for that; I don't even remember everything I've said. I have to go over the material for each episode many times to get my brain around it. It's the mind of material that you have to go over more than once.

[Regular John Umber]

Apologies if this has been raised in the previous posts: Patchface drowned, right? So could all of his 'under the sea' references refer to death, or the afterlife? 

[LynnS]

I have to go with squid for 'squishers'. 

[Pain killer Jane]

7 hours ago, LmL said:

No need for that; I don't even remember everything I've said. I have to go over the material for each episode many times to get my brain around it. It's the mind of material that you have to go over more than once.

 Thank You.

You know Walder Frey could be considered a solar king as well.

[Pain killer Jane]

5 hours ago, Regular John Umber said:

Apologies if this has been raised in the previous posts: Patchface drowned, right? So could all of his 'under the sea' references refer to death, or the afterlife? 

Yes. The ocean has been seen by many cultures as the realm of the dead. But remember that Martin layers and layers his prominent features with multiple meanings. 

[LmL]

44 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

You know Walder Frey could be considered a solar king as well.

Yes, I was aware of that, and I just read your remark about Freya on @Seams's puns and wordplay thread. The collection of solar figures with stag antlers are all of high import to me, so I thank you for the reminder. Walder is of course the crappy sort of solar king - he sits in a chair (throne) of black wood. The giant he slew was Robb Stark, because I believe there's some kind of Stark - giant thing going on, or at least a KoW / giant thing. The antler as a weapon recalls the AGOT prologue, and although Walder didn't kill the wolf, we can see it's a modified usage of that theme. King Robert is a solar stag man, and the antler killing the Direwolf is linked to him. Walder plays the same role, solar stag. Of course Walder is old and grey - should look for grey king clues in his chapters, huh? The twins themselves could refer to either a pair of moons or a pair of comets (the split comet, because according to theory the sun split the comet). Robb's army is like a steel snake uncoiling when they cross the Twins the first time, and there's a horned moon in the sky too (which is how I found that scene). Definitely need to reread it. 

Also, when the Tullys are discussing Edmure marrying a Frey, there's a remark about maybe Cat should marry Walder and become the ninth lady Frey. That makes cat a ninth wanderer coming to kill the eighth. She of courses becomes the Lady version of AA reborn the fire zombie.