AFFC Prologue: Does Dontos Have a Posse? With Some Bonus Apple Talk At The End

[M_Tootles]

The prologue of A Feast For Crows is pretty great.

One of best things about it is the foregrounding of a Targaryen blood-apple symbology that several people have posted about. Since I don't think anyone's nailed it, I'll throw a little bonus regarding my thoughts about that on at the end.

This post, though, is really about Mollander, the dude who throws the apples that Alleras shoots with his arrows.

Here's what we know about Mollander. The bolded bits will be paid off momentarily.

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Dragging his clubfoot, Mollander took a short hop, whirled, and whipped the apple sidearm into the mists that hung above the Honeywine. If not for his foot, he would have been a knight like his father. He had the strength for it in those thick arms and broad shoulders.

 

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"Oldtown is not the world," declared Mollander, too loudly. He was a knight's son, and drunk as drunk could be. Since they brought him word of his father's death upon the Blackwater, he got drunk most every night.

 

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"Fuck your quiver." Mollander scooped up the windfall.

 

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Mollander began to laugh.

 

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Mollander lifted his tankard high, sloshing the cider that remained. "Here's to her!" He gulped, slammed his empty tankard down, belched, and wiped his mouth with the back of his hand.

 

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Mollander was so drunk he had to walk with a hand on Roone's shoulder to keep from falling.

 

Turns out he's the son of somebody we know. There is so much mirroring and paralleling going on here it's basically impossible to overstate, to say nothing of the obvious similarities of name.
 

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"Lothor Brune, freerider in the service of Lord Baelish," cried the herald. "Ser Dontos the Red, of House Hollard."…

The knight appeared a moment later, cursing and staggering, clad in breastplate and plumed helm and nothing else. His legs were pale and skinny, and his manhood flopped about obscenely as he chased after his horse. The watchers roared and shouted insults. Catching his horse by the bridle, Ser Dontos tried to mount, but the animal would not stand still and the knight was so drunk that his bare foot kept missing the stirrup. (COK San I)

 

 

Remember when Mollander drops the gratuitous F-bomb? The drunkenness obviously matches, and they're tied textually through the attention paid to Dontos's foot's inability to do its job, like a clubfoot. Mollander's knight's-son physicality matches Dontos's, too:

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Sansa whirled. A man stepped out of the shadows, heavyset, thick of neck, shambling. He wore a dark grey robe with the cowl pulled forward, but when a thin sliver of moonlight touched his cheek, she knew him at once by the blotchy skin and web of broken veins beneath. "Ser Dontos," she breathed, heartbroken. (COK San II)

 

More odd foot references:

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Dontos was prattling on. "If I were still a knight, I should have to put on armor and man the walls with the rest. I ought to kiss King Joffrey's feet and thank him sweetly." (COK S IV)

 

Belching like Mollander:

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Dontos covered his mouth to stifle a burp. (COK S IV)

 

Dontos whirls and hops and laughs, as Mollander does, and again acts like he has a club foot even though he doesn't.

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It was Ser Dontos who brought her the word. He staggered through her open door, wrapped her in his flabby arms, and whirled her around and around the room, whooping so incoherently that Sansa understood not a word of it. (COK S VII)

 

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Dontos laughed and hopped from one leg to the other, almost falling. (COK S VII)

 

Just like Mollander, he has to use someone to assist him while drunkenly walking:

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[Dontos] was so drunk that sometimes Sansa had to lend him her arm to keep him from falling.

 

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Mollander was so drunk he had to walk with a hand on Roone's shoulder to keep from falling.

 

Dontos wipes his mouth like Mollander (and his house is foregrounded, to be discussed momentarily):

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My poor Florian, [Sansa] thought, as [Dontos] wiped his mouth with a floppy sleeve. Dress dark, he'd said, yet under his brown hooded cloak he was wearing his old surcoat; red and pink horizontal stripes beneath a black chief bearing three gold crowns, the arms of House Hollard. (SOS S V)

 

Again, Dontos walks like a clubfoot:

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Ser Dontos pulled her back onto her feet. "This way. Quiet now, quiet, quiet." He stayed close to the shadows that lay black and thick beneath the cliffs. Thankfully they did not have to go far. Fifty yards downriver, a man sat in a small skiff, half-hidden by the remains of a great galley that had gone aground there and burned. Dontos limped up to him, puffing. "Oswell?" (SOS S V)

 

Dontos is the last remnant of House Hollard, who had their castle and land taken from them by Aerys II after they abetted Denys Darklyn in the Defiance At Duskendale. Lord Rykker's maester explains to Brienne:

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"I never knew Ser Dontos. He was a boy when he left Duskendale. The Hollards were a noble House once, 'tis true. You know their arms? Barry red and pink, with three golden crowns upon a blue chief. The Darklyns were petty kings during the Age of Heroes, and three took Hollard wives. Later their little realm was swallowed up by larger kingdoms, yet the Darklyns endured and the Hollards served them … aye, even in defiance. You know of that?" (FFC B II)

 

What is a "defiance" if not an act of bullheaded stubbornness? And what are we told of Mollander:

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Mollander grew more stubborn when he drank, and even when sober he was bullheaded. (FFC Pro)

 

The Maester continues:

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"In Duskendale they love Lord Denys still, despite the woe he brought them. 'Tis Lady Serala that they blame, his Myrish wife. The Lace Serpent, she is called. If Lord Darklyn had only wed a Staunton or a Stokeworth . . . well, you know how smallfolk will go on. The Lace Serpent filled her husband's ear with Myrish poison, they say, until Lord Denys rose against his king and took him captive." (FFC B II)

 

Myr, eh?

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"Oldtown is not the world," declared Mollander, too loudly. (FFC Pro)

 

When the Defiance finally ended, what did Aerys do?

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"Once Lord Denys lost his hostage, he opened his gates and ended his defiance rather than let Lord Tywin take the town. He bent the knee and begged for mercy, but the king was not of a forgiving mind. Lord Denys lost his head, as did his brothers and his sister, uncles, cousins, all the lordly Darklyns. The Lace Serpent was burned alive, poor woman, though her tongue was torn out first, and her female parts, with which it was said that she had enslaved her lord. Half of Duskendale will still tell you that Aerys was too kind to her." (FFC B II)

 

"Coincidentally," Mollander makes the following remark:

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Mollander said, "I would tear your tongue out by the roots." (FFC Pro)

 

The maester continues:

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"And the Hollards?"

"Attainted and destroyed," said the maester. "I was forging my chain at the Citadel when this happened, but I have read the accounts of their trials and punishments. Ser Jon Hollard the Steward was wed to Lord Denys's sister and died with his wife, as did their young son, who was half-Darklyn. Robin Hollard was a squire, and when the king was seized he danced around him and pulled his beard. He died upon the rack. Ser Symon Hollard was slain by Ser Barristan during the king's escape. The Hollard lands were taken, their castle torn down, their villages put to the torch. As with the Darklyns, House Hollard was extinguished."

"Save for Dontos."

"True enough. Young Dontos was the son of Ser Steffon Hollard, the twin brother of Ser Symon, who had died of a fever some years before and had no part in the Defiance. Aerys would have taken the boy's head off nonetheless, but Ser Barristan asked that his life be spared. The king could not refuse the man who'd saved him, so Dontos was taken to King's Landing as a squire. To my knowledge he never returned to Duskendale, and why should he? He held no lands here, had neither kin nor castle. If Dontos and this northern girl helped murder our sweet king, it seems to me that they would want to put as many leagues as they could betwixt themselves and justice. Look for them in Oldtown, if you must, or across the narrow sea. Look for them in Dorne, or on the Wall. Look elsewhere." He rose. "I hear my ravens calling. You will forgive me if I bid you good morrow." (FFC B II)

 

 

Look for a Hollard in Oldtown, indeed, where Mollander says things like:

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"My father always said the world was bigger than any lord's castle," Mollander went on.

 

Sounds like the kinda thing a drunk trying to make himself feel better about his family's extermination and the loss of their castle would say, huh?

Notice that Dontos Hollard's death mirrors Mollander's apple toss for Alleras, as he is killed by three "arrows", i.e. crossbow bolts:
 

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Petyr Baelish put a hand on the rail. "But first you'll want your payment. Ten thousand dragons, was it?"

Ten thousand." Dontos rubbed his mouth with the back of his hand. "As you promised, my lord."

"Ser Lothor, the reward."

Lothor Brune dipped his torch. Three men stepped to the gunwale, raised crossbows, fired. One bolt took Dontos in the chest as he looked up, punching through the left crown on his surcoat. The others ripped into throat and belly. It happened so quickly neither Dontos nor Sansa had time to cry out. When it was done, Lothor Brune tossed the torch down on top of the corpse. The little boat was blazing fiercely as the galley moved away.

"You killed him." Clutching the rail, Sansa turned away and retched. Had she escaped the Lannisters to tumble into worse? (SOS San V)

 

 

So Dontos quite literally dies on the Blackwater, just as Mollander's father is said to do. Again, a verbatim duplication hints at the connection between Mollander and Dontos:

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He gulped, slammed his empty tankard down, belched, and wiped his mouth with the back of his hand.

 

Dontos Hollard of course dies trying to work a scheme to get ten thousand gold dragons, while Mollander's friend Pate tries to do the same thing for a single golden dragon. Both schemes go down near a misty river:

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A mist was rising over the water. (SOS San V)

 

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…the mists that hung above the Honeywine…

…"Careful," Pate heard Armen say as the river mists swallowed up the four of them… (FFC Pro)

 

 

EDIT:

Originally the evidence ended here—all very textual, but too much for me to believe it could possibly be coincidence.

Then along came The Kinkslayer on reddit to pretty much put a bow on it. He recalled that Leo Tyrell calls Mollander "Hopfrog" and wondered why that might be. Here are the three times Leo calls Mollander Hopfrog. Notice that he does so while accusing Mollander of being a traitor, which the Hollards were:

 

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"The Stormborn. I recall her now." Mollander lifted his tankard high, sloshing the cider that remained. "Here's to her!" He gulped, slammed his empty tankard down, belched, and wiped his mouth with the back of his hand. "Where's Rosey? Our rightful queen deserves another round of cider, wouldn't you say?"

Armen the Acolyte looked alarmed. "Lower your voice, fool. You should not even jape about such things. You never know who could be listening. The Spider has ears everywhere."

"Ah, don't piss your breeches, Armen. I was proposing a drink, not a rebellion."

Pate heard a chuckle. A soft, sly voice called out from behind him. "I always knew you were a traitor, Hopfrog." Lazy Leo was slouching by the foot of the old plank bridge, draped in satin striped in green and gold, with a black silk half cape pinned to his shoulder by a rose of jade.…

Mollander bristled at the sight of him. "Bugger that. Go away. You are not welcome here." Alleras laid a hand upon his arm to calm him, whilst Armen frowned. "Leo. My lord. I had understood that you were still confined to the Citadel for …"

"… three more days." Lazy Leo shrugged. "Perestan says the world is forty thousand years old. Mollos says five hundred thousand. What are three days, I ask you?" Though there were a dozen empty tables on the terrace, Leo sat himself at theirs. "Buy me a cup of Arbor gold, Hopfrog, and perhaps I won't inform my father of your toast. The tiles turned against me at the Checkered Hazard, and I wasted my last stag on supper. Suckling pig in plum sauce, stuffed with chestnuts and white truffles. A man must eat. What did you lads have?"

 

 

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Leo patted his hand. "More than two and less than four. I would not try for my golden link just yet if I were you."

"You leave him be," warned Mollander.

"Such a chivalrous Hopfrog."

 

 

Mollander is called "a fool" and "chivalrous" and a "traitor", a perfect match for Dontos, the chivalrous fool. And what's in the name "Hopfrog"?

 

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Hop-frog is a short story by American writer Edgar Allan Poe, first published in 1849. The title character, a little person taken from his homeland, becomes the jester of a king particularly fond of practical jokes. Taking revenge on the king and his cabinet for striking his friend and fellow little person Trippetta, he dresses them as orangutans for a masquerade. In front of the king's guests, Hop-Frog murders them all by setting their costumes on fire before escaping with Trippetta.

 

 

So basically all the elements of Dontos's story. The little person angle ties in since Tyrion is accused of the crime.

Dontos is clearly Mollander's recently deceased father So here's the thing I wonder. At some point, is Petyr Baelish going to be on top of the world, some sort of dastardly scheme (or noble but fraught endeavor) about to come to fruition, when up pops vengeance in the form of a pink-necked novice with a clubfoot? That would be pretty awesome. There is perhaps a hint this might happen:

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Ned studied the rocky face of the bluff for a moment, then followed more slowly. The niches were there, as Littlefinger had promised, shallow cuts that would be invisible from below, unless you knew just where to look for them. The river was a long, dizzying distance below. Ned kept his face pressed to the rock and tried not to look down any more often than he had to.

When at last he reached the bottom, a narrow, muddy trail along the water's edge, Littlefinger was lazing against a rock and eating an apple. He was almost down to the core. "You are growing old and slow, Stark," he said, flipping the apple casually into the rushing water. (GOT E IV)

 

 

Might Dontos have a posse?

 

The End.

 

---

 

Apple Talk Bonus Shit

 

The apples in the prologue of AFFC represent the Baratheon branch of the Targaryen tree, descended from Egg's sister Rhaelle.

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"Dragons," said Mollander. He snatched a withered apple off the ground and tossed it hand to hand.

"Throw the apple," urged Alleras the Sphinx. He slipped an arrow from his quiver and nocked it to his bowstring.…

"The apple," Alleras said. "Unless you mean to eat it."

"Here." Dragging his clubfoot, Mollander took a short hop, whirled, and whipped the apple sidearm into the mists that hung above the Honeywine. If not for his foot, he would have been a knight like his father. He had the strength for it in those thick arms and broad shoulders. Far and fast the apple flew …

… but not as fast as the arrow that whistled after it, a yard-long shaft of golden wood fletched with scarlet feathers. Pate did not see the arrow catch the apple, but he heard it. A soft chunk echoed back across the river, followed by a splash.

Mollander whistled. "You cored it. Sweet."

 

 

 

The first apple is Robert. It's "withered"—formerly robust, but deteriorated. It's pierced by an arrow in Lannister colors, but we don't see that happen, just as we don't see Robert killed. It's said to be "cored," which is a near-homonym for gored—as Robert is—and which carries an analogous meaning, anyway.

 

---

 

The second apple is "wormy" and a "windfall" from the ground:

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"There's another apple near your foot," Alleras called to Mollander, "and I still have two arrows in my quiver."

"Fuck your quiver." Mollander scooped up the windfall. "This one's wormy," he complained, but he threw it anyway. The arrow caught the apple as it began to fall and sliced it clean in two. One half landed on a turret roof, tumbled to a lower roof, bounced, and missed Armen by a foot.

 

 

 

"Windfall" makes one other appearance in all ASOIAF:

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"If Stark defeats us, the south will fall into Renly's hands like a windfall from the gods, and he'll not have lost a man." (COK Tyr IV)

 

 

Renly's death:

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"I beg you in the name of the Mother," Catelyn began when a sudden gust of wind flung open the door of the tent. She thought she glimpsed movement, but when she turned her head, it was only the king's shadow shifting against the silken walls. She heard Renly begin a jest, his shadow moving, lifting its sword, black on green, candles guttering, shivering, something was queer, wrong, and then she saw Renly's sword still in its scabbard, sheathed still, but the shadowsword …

"Cold," said Renly in a small puzzled voice, a heartbeat before the steel of his gorget parted like cheesecloth beneath the shadow of a blade that was not there. He had time to make a small thick gasp before the blood came gushing out of his throat.

"Your Gr—no!" cried Brienne the Blue when she saw that evil flow, sounding as scared as any little girl. The king stumbled into her arms, a sheet of blood creeping down the front of his armor, a dark red tide that drowned his green and gold. More candles guttered out. Renly tried to speak, but he was choking on his own blood. His legs collapsed, and only Brienne's strength held him up. She threw back her head and screamed, wordless in her anguish. (COK C IV)

 

 

 

Brienne cradles him for a few moments before being forced to let him go, his "body thrust rudely aside."

The shadow sword makes a mighty clean cut, just like the arrow through the apple, and cheesecloth suggests cheese which suggests apples. Apples and cheese are paired over and over in ASOIAF (as in life), including when Catelyn sits down to dinner with Brienne and Renly two Catelyn chapters before his murder:

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…apple crisps and wheels of buttery cheese. (COK C II)

 

 

A wormy apple seems a good analogy for Renly: it might look good at first, but the inside isn't really. The fall simply replicates not only Renly's "career" trajectory (one minute he's on top of the world, looking unstoppable, with all the power of the Reach behind him, the next he's done), but more directly the way he collapses in stages upon being sliced by the shadow. "Windfall" also references the "gust of wind" accompanying the shadow slayer.

 

---

 

The third apple is the last one on the branch, so to speak:

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"One last apple," promised Alleras, "and I will tell you what I suspect about these dragons."

"What could you know that I don't?" grumbled Mollander. He spied an apple on a branch, jumped up, pulled it down, and threw. Alleras drew his bowstring back to his ear, turning gracefully to follow the target in flight. He loosed his shaft just as the apple began to fall.

"You always miss your last shot," said Roone.

The apple splashed down into the river, untouched.

 

 

 

The last apple is Stannis. Hitting the river but being "untouched" reminds me of Patchface, his under the sea metaphors, and greyscale, the Westerosi equivalent of leprosy, whose sufferers were historically called "untouchables".

 

***

[M_Tootles]

Kinkslayer on reddit followed up on this and looked into the name "Hopfrog". Turns out that pretty much cinches a relationship between Mollander and Dontos if you believe in textual (as opposed to narrative/dramatic) evidence at all. I also found that Mollander gets called "fool", "traitor" and "chivalrous", a perfect match for Dontos of House Hollard who is Sansa's Florian. Here's what I added if you already read the OP.

EDIT CONTENT:

Originally the evidence ended here—all very textual, but too much for me to believe it could possibly be coincidence.

Then along came The Kinkslayer on reddit to pretty much put a bow on it. He recalled that Leo Tyrell calls Mollander "Hopfrog" and wondered why that might be. Here are the three times Leo calls Mollander Hopfrog. Notice that he does so while accusing Mollander of being a traitor, which the Hollards were:

 

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"The Stormborn. I recall her now." Mollander lifted his tankard high, sloshing the cider that remained. "Here's to her!" He gulped, slammed his empty tankard down, belched, and wiped his mouth with the back of his hand. "Where's Rosey? Our rightful queen deserves another round of cider, wouldn't you say?"

Armen the Acolyte looked alarmed. "Lower your voice, fool. You should not even jape about such things. You never know who could be listening. The Spider has ears everywhere."

"Ah, don't piss your breeches, Armen. I was proposing a drink, not a rebellion."

Pate heard a chuckle. A soft, sly voice called out from behind him. "I always knew you were a traitor, Hopfrog." Lazy Leo was slouching by the foot of the old plank bridge, draped in satin striped in green and gold, with a black silk half cape pinned to his shoulder by a rose of jade.…

Mollander bristled at the sight of him. "Bugger that. Go away. You are not welcome here." Alleras laid a hand upon his arm to calm him, whilst Armen frowned. "Leo. My lord. I had understood that you were still confined to the Citadel for …"

"… three more days." Lazy Leo shrugged. "Perestan says the world is forty thousand years old. Mollos says five hundred thousand. What are three days, I ask you?" Though there were a dozen empty tables on the terrace, Leo sat himself at theirs. "Buy me a cup of Arbor gold, Hopfrog, and perhaps I won't inform my father of your toast. The tiles turned against me at the Checkered Hazard, and I wasted my last stag on supper. Suckling pig in plum sauce, stuffed with chestnuts and white truffles. A man must eat. What did you lads have?"

 

 

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Leo patted his hand. "More than two and less than four. I would not try for my golden link just yet if I were you."

"You leave him be," warned Mollander.

"Such a chivalrous Hopfrog."

 

 

Mollander is called "a fool" and "chivalrous" and a "traitor", a perfect match for Dontos, the chivalrous fool. And what's in the name "Hopfrog"?

 

Quote

Hop-frog is a short story by American writer Edgar Allan Poe, first published in 1849. The title character, a little person taken from his homeland, becomes the jester of a king particularly fond of practical jokes. Taking revenge on the king and his cabinet for striking his friend and fellow little person Trippetta, he dresses them as orangutans for a masquerade. In front of the king's guests, Hop-Frog murders them all by setting their costumes on fire before escaping with Trippetta.

 

 

So basically all the elements of Dontos's story. The little person angle ties in since Tyrion is accused of the crime.

 

[Seams]

I love this! This may be my favorite post of the week; in the running for a top post of the month award!

The idea that there is someone to mourn and outlive Ser Dontos is both sad and gratifying. Will Mollander seek revenge? Does he have any idea that someone (Baelish) double-crossed his father? If he knows about Baelish - or if he finds out later - will he hold Sansa responsible for his father's fate? Did he even know about his father's behavior at the name day tournament and his demotion from knight to fool? That seems like the kind of gossip that probably would have reached Old Town, but he refers to his father as a knight in the prologue, doesn't he?

While pulling together thoughts for the recent thread contemplating the Antler Men, I realized that Ser Dontos had been a huge fan of King Renly. So the interplay you have outlined between Leo Tyrell and Mollander is intriguing. I assume Leo's branch of the Tyrells would follow the lead of Lord Mace Tyrell. So Leo and Mollander, if he followed his father's preferences, would have been on the same side when Renly was still alive.

Now we have Mollander toasting Danaerys and Leo threatening to report him as a traitor. But we also had Ser Garlan Tyrell wearing Renly's armor at the Battle of the Blackwater. I don't have a lot to go on, but Garlan would be one of my suspects to be an undercover Antler Man, working to bring down the Lannisters with the goal, perhaps, of elevating Edric Storm or Gendry to the throne. As I say, though, I don't have a lot to go on. And I'm now thinking that is not the kind of undercover plan you would share with a jerk like your cousin Leo Tyrell. So Leo's loyalty to King Tommen makes sense but I'm puzzled (if Mollander really is the son of Ser Dontos) by Mollander's cheerleading for Dany. Given the violence inflicted on his family by King Aerys, it's a little strange to see Mollander toasting a Targaryen. I guess the insult by Joffrey to the Hollard honor was more recent, so the family might prefer the "anyone but a Lannister" approach to the monarchy.

I like the apple part of your analysis. I'm still working out apple symbolism, and I had completely forgotten about the archery targets. I know you cited the apple eaten by Littlefinger when Ned descends from the Red Keep, but I think there are other apples to take into consideration. When I was trying to sort out the symbolism of inns, I noticed that there were often apples present whenever a character was near an inn: Aemon has a dream about drinking cider with Dunk and Egg at the same Old Town establishment (probably) where this prologue takes place, and Jon Snow and Bran both notice the rotten apples on the ground at the ruins of the old inn near the Queesncrown tower. The Littlefinger apple-eating scene you described seems like a pair with an apple Jon Snow eats after he has just passed Moles Town on his attempted desertion from the Night's Watch. King Robert tells Ned to roast the boar that killed Robert with an apple in its mouth. I've also just listened to the audiobook chapter where Davos arrives in White Harbor. He buys an apple from an apple seller and eats it even though it's not very good. When he finishes, the apple seller asks for the apple core because he says the seeds are valuable. So your analysis of the target practice apples is definitely taking this in the right direction: apples are closely associated with kings, Hands of Kings and potential future kings, I think. (Although I hate to put Littlefinger in that company.)

There's definitely also something important about apple cores and apple seeds. I assume this relates to "the seed is strong" statement from Jon Arryn, but I don't know quite how to make sense of it.

Here's an apple connection that will really make your Ser Dontos / Mollander radar go wild: Lothar Brune is nicknamed Lothor Apple-Eater because he killed or took prisoner several Fossoways in battle. Brune commands the crossbowmen who kill Ser Dontos. (Possible tangent: How does the death of Ser Dontos by crossbow connect to the death of Tywin Lannister by crossbow, if at all?)

So many interesting new details to consider! Thanks for starting this line of discussion.

[Lurid Jester]

Really enjoyed that Apple bit (damn iPhone can't seem to let me write Apple without capitalizing it).  

It's odd because I'd just started rereading AFfC last night and nothing in the prologue jumped out at me.  

The "I don't know what's going on", and "You never will" bit seems apt. 

[M_Tootles]

1 hour ago, Seams said:

I like the apple part of your analysis. I'm still working out apple symbolism, and I had completely forgotten about the archery targets. I know you cited the apple eaten by Littlefinger when Ned descends from the Red Keep, but I think there are other apples to take into consideration. When I was trying to sort out the symbolism of inns, I noticed that there were often apples present whenever a character was near an inn:

I deleted a TON of stuff from the apple analysis and chose to just focus on the Prologue. You are absolutely correct about the inns and the apples. The rotten apples littering the ground when the mystery (I think) targaryen bastard is killed at queenscrown... one crunches under jon's foot much like oberyn's head gets smashed in by the mountain... the comments of the apple seller in white harbor about the seeds still being good even if the apple is shitty... jon's apple is aemon i think. oh shit, you totally talk about all this i should read before i start responding.

Crossbows also tie into the most famous apple shooter of all, William Tell, who kills a king, FWIW.

 

1 hour ago, Seams said:

Here's an apple connection that will really make your Ser Dontos / Mollander radar go wild: Lothar Brune is nicknamed Lothor Apple-Eater because he killed or took prisoner several Fossoways in battle. Brune commands the crossbowmen who kill Ser Dontos. (Possible tangent: How does the death of Ser Dontos by crossbow connect to the death of Tywin Lannister by crossbow, if at all?)

So many interesting new details to consider! Thanks for starting this line of discussion.

Christ it's pregnant. I didn't even notice that that was Lothar's nick or I would've tied him in even harder.

[Seams]

10 minutes ago, M_Tootles said:

The rotten apples littering the ground when the mystery (I think) targaryen bastard is killed at queenscrown...

Interesting! Not to go too far off on a tangent, but I think the guy who Ygritte kills at the Queenscrown is a symbolic version of the direwolf Ghost. (White hair, silent, eyes looking at Jon as if to communicate, etc.) I think the scene is supposed to reflect the White Witch killing Aslan instead of Edmund for being a traitor in Narnia. But maybe we are both right! Ghost is an aspect of Jon Snow . . .

[sweetsunray]

Like the OP!

Mollander is intruiging. Him and the Sphynx. The clubfoot references appear a few times too: Clubfoot Karl who was part of the conspiracy at the Fist and one of the mutineers at Craster's. And when Sam runs from the Fist to Craster's he looks at his feet in his boots covered in snow and he thinks they look like clubfeet.