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wolfmaid7

Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 3

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First i want to thank everyone that took part in the project ,and a special thanks to the troopers that furnished us with the essays.I decided to have everyone do summaries just to refresh what has been discussed through the project as part as an extended OP. We then simply debate what has been put forth like before and  have more of a compare/ comparison  look at each essay and the points in relation to the story.Not every point made appear in the summaries ,but feel free to ask questions about a point, or raise a point not reiterated in the summary.

What seemed to be of importance when discussing Jon's parentage are the following:

1.Narrative sense.

2.Thematic sense.

3."Evidence." I put that in quotation because if there's one thing this project has shown is there are difference of opinions in what constituites as evidence.

4.Timeline is another sub topic that is hotly debated and we can't get away from it,so in the mix it is.

If i forgot anything that you guys think should have been on the list but isn't ,go right ahead and bring it up.

Lastly,we all can get a little heated under the collar when discussing this (guilty of that myself),so lets try and keep it as civil as possible and just have a nice discussion.

Jump in at anytime to discuss "once" I've posted all (7-8)  summaries.

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Timelines have been hotly debated when it comes to Jon's parentage.There are different schools of thoughts on that.This thread will look at the elements of when Jon could have been born.

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Kicking it off:

Jon's birthday, whenever it was, has to fall within a maximum range of +/- 1-2 months of Robb's birthday. A difference larger than that is very obvious when it comes to babies, and Ned would not have been able to pass off Jon as his bastard if it was so.

 

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Have you asked the mods to lock the previous iteration? It is a bit confusing to have two versions floating around.

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8 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Kicking it off:

Jon's birthday, whenever it was, has to fall within a maximum range of +/- 1-2 months of Robb's birthday. A difference larger than that is very obvious when it comes to babies, and Ned would not have been able to pass off Jon as his bastard if it was so.

He would, but not as a bastard conceived after his marriage to Cat.

Narrative sense:

Jon's parentage should fit with speshul bloodlines, prophecies, claims to the throne, ancient secrets, something. Making him the son of a random fisherman's daughter contributes to nothing.

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2 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

He would, but not as a bastard conceived after his marriage to Cat

Yep, that was my meaning.

Since wolfmaid said she wanted to discuss the timeline and when Jon could have been born, I thought this would be the best starting point -  as it is simple common sense and doesn't depend on any ambiguous readings of the text.

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6 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Have you asked the mods to lock the previous iteration? It is a bit confusing to have two versions floating around.

The lock was requested about an hour or two ago.So,it should be closed whenever they are ready.

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Just now, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Yep, that was my meaning.

Since wolfmaid said she wanted to discuss the timeline and when Jon could have been born, I thought this would be the best starting point -  as it is simple common sense and doesn't depend on any ambiguous readings of the text.

Oh, my sweet summer child, don't you know that bastards grow faster and hence it is not uncommon that a three months old bastard baby is as big as a trueborn one aged one year? :P

Here, have some popcorn, you shall see.

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Will answer this thread a bit later.Ygrain,please don't turn the thread into something ugly.You don't know the arguements...Trust me you don't.So at least wait to see what others have to say on the matter.

You've had yours you've made your point.:D

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Don't I? This particular BS has been used as an argument many times but I am most happy to hear that you are not going to use it in this thread. If you have something more sensible, go ahead.

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5 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Timelines have been hotly debated when it comes to Jon's parentage.There are different schools of thoughts on that.This thread will look at the elements of when Jon could have been born.

Alright, I'll bite. Ned was 18 years old at the Tourney of Harrenhal.  And he's 35 in the opening chapter of AGOT... so, 17 years have passed since the false spring. And Jon Snow is only 14 ("an old hand at justice").  

That means that Jon was born about 3 years after the Tourney at Harrenhal.  Give or take.

Discuss. (If you like.)

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2 hours ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

Discuss. (If you like.)

Well, I could, but first I think I should note for posterity that

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I had always thought that Catelyn was angry with Ned for fathering a child after their wedding, i.e. if Jon had been conceived while Brandon was still alive then Cat would have been more accepting.  This always had huge implications for the timeline.

But on re-reading Catelyn II, it's the fact that Ned brought the baby home to live openly at Winterfell, rather than sending him away and sparing her the humiliation.  She even says she could forgive Ned because he had a man's needs, but he shouldn't have returned with Jon to live with her and their own infant son Robb.  Adding to that is her suspicion that Jon's mother was important to Ned, not just a passing fling.

What's most telling is that in all of Catelyn's thoughts, Jon's conception and birth fit very firmly into that one year period of the Rebellion.  At no point does she ever question it.

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3 hours ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

Alright, I'll bite. Ned was 18 years old at the Tourney of Harrenhal.  And he's 35 in the opening chapter of AGOT... so, 17 years have passed since the false spring. And Jon Snow is only 14 ("an old hand at justice").  

That means that Jon was born about 3 years after the Tourney at Harrenhal.  Give or take.

Discuss. (If you like.)

That's a great place to start. That could place Jon's birth closer to twelve months or thereabouts than the usual timelines depict. I don't find that in anyway disturbing since Martin has told us, "I do intend to publish a timeline as an appendix in one or other of the later volumes, but even when I do, I am not certain I'm going to start detailing things down to months and days. With such a huge cast of characters, just keeping track of the =years= drives me half mad sometimes."

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Bastards grow faster than trueborn children, and the smallfolk are sewing dragon banners between hushed toasts.

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41 minutes ago, aDanceWithFlagons said:

With such a huge cast of characters, just keeping track of the =years= drives me half mad sometimes.

Yep, this is apparent in various ways. 

For instance, there's a well-known SSM quoting GRRM saying Aegon was one, give or take a turn or two, at the time of the Sack

Since the war lasted about a year, that appears to suggest Aegon was born around the time the war began.

However, the World book suggests a very different sequence.  It says that first Aegon was born... then months went by, in which Rhaegar went on a long road trip and "ultimately" he fell upon Lyanna and then, of course, Brandon rode to the Red Keep and Rickard was summoned, they were killed, Ned and Robert were summoned, and Jon Arryn called his banners ... and finally the war began, long after Aegon was born. 

So the World book appears to contradict GRRM on the subject of Aegon's age when he purportedly died.   Which do we believe? 

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Depends in what order those statements were made. In case of conflict the more recent has to be taken as his current thinking on the matter.

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1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Depends in what order those statements were made. In case of conflict the more recent has to be taken as his current thinking on the matter.

It's not just the order, but also the fact that the first statement came from an SSM, which means that, while at the time it was GRRM's opinion, it was not yet "set in stone". TWOIAF demonstrates that, as per that book, Aegon is a few months older (~half a year or so) than the SSM had previously suggested.

10 hours ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

Alright, I'll bite. Ned was 18 years old at the Tourney of Harrenhal.  And he's 35 in the opening chapter of AGOT... so, 17 years have passed since the false spring. And Jon Snow is only 14 ("an old hand at justice").  

That means that Jon was born about 3 years after the Tourney at Harrenhal.  Give or take.

Discuss. (If you like.)

He turns 15 later that year.

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2 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

He turns 15 later that year.

Not to mention that at the beginning of AGOT, it has been 14 years since RR, Ned has been living lies for 14 years and Jon is 14.

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