Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 3

[Sly Wren]

21 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

@Sly Wren I should interject I don't agree with the symbolism of the blue roses to mean spite. A quick google has them associated with impossible  or unattainable love, sometimes mystery (or could we say "magic").

Right--but a quick google also gives you Martin's story "Bitterblooms," too. Martin's been playing with blue roses for a while, specifically. And they are. . . mixed.

 

Plus, the question isn't just what roses mean in general, but what they mean in world, no? 

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What we have is a symbolism that suggests love across barriers that can't be crossed, not spite. Between the Free Folk and a Stark maiden, or between the married Crown Prince and a woman on the other side of a political divide.

I agree this may be the end result. But Martin (via Ygritte) makes no bones about Bael's intent in giving that blue rose: spite, attack, teaching an enemy a lesson, putting him in his place.

Cersei uses the Blue Bard the same way.

So, regardless of how things turn out after the spiteful act, Martin's telling us what the "giver" of the roses intends: putting down an enemy or rival. 

Seems like Martin's telling us exactly what Rhaegar intended when he gave that crown. And an insult fits with the Stark reaction, the World Book description, and with Ned's take on the roses in his crypt dream.

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Why does the blue rose symbolize such love? Because in our world it is a color that cannot be achieved naturally. Roses don't have the pigment to produce blue. That's how I view it anyway.

And in Martinlandia, the treachery of the rose-giver may end up producing things like this. But what the giver intended--Martin's given us that in multiple contexts. Over multiple novels. So far, the takeaway is that Rhaegar was smacking the Starks via Lyanna with that crown. Like Bael was attacking Stark when he took the daughter. And Cersei is smacking the Tyrells with the Blue Bard and the charges against Marg.

[Sly Wren]

6 minutes ago, Jamie Roberts said:

I agree with this. 

[Voice]

On 9/18/2016 at 10:37 AM, Sly Wren said:

Lyanna doesn't just judge Robert in that speech. She generalizes to "men" in general. And her assessment? Past is prologue, regardless of how much he loves you.

So, the idea that we've been given that specific take and then are supposed to ignore it seems. . . odd.

Plus, Martin's given us the roses--equivocal in meaning in Game. Offensive in the Bael Tale. And reasserted as offensive in the Blue Bard stuff. 

Really seems like he's telling us the rose-giving was not romantic and Lyanna wouldn't willingly run off with unfaithful men.

Yup.

In fact, that is pretty much the only thing GRRM has ever told us about Lyanna.

With all due respect to @J. Stargaryen and @Kingmonkey, with whom I agree on a great many things... I've yet to hear a compelling argument that accounts for Lyanna's own convictions.

Considering how little of her persona we ever learn, I am surprised that people would seek to rationalize (or at times, even ignore) the one and only opinion she ever gave in the books. 

It requires no interpretation whatsoever, as it is very simple:

Lyanna did not approve of men keeping multiple beds.

Anything beyond that is simply not canon. Which is fine. If all we did was repeat canon, the forums would be incredibly boring. But the text is quite clear on this point, and I think many theorists tend to ignore it. That goes for @wolfmaid7's "R"+L=J theory as well.

What did Lyanna want?

Whom did Lyanna want?

We cannot know.

But we do know that she did not want a man who kept multiple beds.

[SFDanny]

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

So far, the takeaway is that Rhaegar was smacking the Starks via Lyanna with that crown.

This much we agree on. I've proposed that Rhaegar's act is a primarily a political one. A statement of honoring Lyanna, and at the same time telling the Starks he stands with his father against the growing marriage alliances against the crown. I think it is done in the same language Aerys's used by honoring Jaime with his appointment to the Kingsguard. Aerys stops the Tully/Lannister betrothal by honoring Jaime and takes him as his own. Rhaegar honors Lyanna and stakes his claim on her at the same time. He tells the Starks he stands between Robert and Lyanna in this marriage, and, more, broadly in the aims of Rickard's Southron Ambitions. Furthermore, I think it is payback for the dishonor done to Lady Ashara by the Starks. They used her to deliver a message to Rhaegar about what they thought of his scheme to use a council to move his father off the throne.

All that said, it doesn't mean there aren't layers of things going on in this scene. It doesn't preclude attraction or even love. Although, the use of these flowers sends a message to Lyanna of the impossible nature of any attraction. Not of spite.

Your inclusion of Bael's story and the blue rose he leaves, seems to exclude love between Bael and the Stark daughter. Something I think her suicide when her son unknowingly kills his father points to, instead of spite. The Blue Bard is just an example of Cersei's thoughtless cruelty, not of spite, or any other emotion.

[Voice]

1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

@Sly Wren I should interject I don't agree with the symbolism of the blue roses to mean spite. A quick google has them associated with impossible  or unattainable love, sometimes mystery (or could we say "magic"). What we have is a symbolism that suggests love across barriers that can't be crossed, not spite. Between the Free Folk and a Stark maiden, or between the married Crown Prince and a woman on the other side of a political divide. Why does the blue rose symbolize such love? Because in our world it is a color that cannot be achieved naturally. Roses don't have the pigment to produce blue. That's how I view it anyway.

 

You listed only a part of what that google search implies.
Link: www.gardenguides.com/70125-blue-roses.html

 

• Overview

Blue roses have fascinated people for many years. True blue roses are not found in nature, and generations at least since the Victorian times have taken white roses and put them in blue water, thus making them blue. The fascination and attempts at creating a blue rose have finally paid off.

 

• Science

Blue roses did not originate in nature. The rose plant lacks a gene to create the color blue. In the year 2004 the Japanese company Suntory and its Australian subsidiary Florigene added blue genes from pansy flowers to roses and successfully created the world's first blue rose. Delphinidin is the plant pigment that produces a blue hue and is not naturally found in roses.

 

• History

The world has been entranced with the concept of the blue rose for over a century. As far back as 1840, horticultural societies in Britain and Belgium together offered to award a prize of 500,000 francs to the person who could produce a true blue rose. To be able to create a blue rose has long been considered the "holy grail" of horticulturalists worldwide.

 

• Symbolism

The symbol of the blue rose is mystery and longing to attain the impossible. Some cultures go so far as to say that the holder of a blue rose will have his wishes granted. In Chinese folklore, the blue rose symbolizes hope for unattainable love.

 

• Rose Gardening

There are many varieties of natural roses and hybrids that have been given the term "blue" in their names. These flowers are not truly blue, however. Blueberry Hill roses are actually light lilac in color. Blueberry Hill rosebushes are considered medium height at about 4 feet, and are said to smell like apples. The Veilchenblau rose is actually purple with white streaks in the petals. This variety is an almost thornless climber. Blue Moon roses are hybrids that are not actually blue, but they are lilac with blue tints. Before Suntory and Florigene's breakthrough, Blue Moon roses were considered the best blue rose. The Blue Nile rose is another lavender hybrid that is celebrated for its strong rose fragrance.

 

• Blue Roses in Literature

"The Glass Menagerie" is a heartbreaking and well-loved stage play written by Tennessee Williams in 1944. One character is Laura, a teenage girl who suffers with pleurosis, a respiratory condition that was more common before the wide use of antibiotics. The main symptom of pleurosis is painful breathing, and it is extremely debilitating. A man on whom Laura has had a crush for many years mis-heard her in high school when she told him she had pleurosis, he heard "blue roses." Blue Roses was his nickname for Laura for that reason.

 

So with all of that in mind, we must at least consider that blue roses = lies. They are not natural. Winterfell's "Glass Gardens" contain the holy grail of horticulturalists. But, GRRM is a well-known skeptic of religion, and I think an easy argument can be made that he views such holy grails as tainted and a source of corruption. Winter roses blue as frost are the sigil of lies, and, GRRM has already told their story:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGvLReH17uU

 

GRRM has also already given us his own Glass Menagerie, in which a glass flower symbolizes humanity, corrupted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYkx4QriXgk

 

Pleurisy = pleurosis = "blue roses" is a perfect explanation for Lyanna's voice being faint as a whisper. And, again, GRRM has already written of a "Lya" whose voice became faint as a whisper:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByAv2DimEnQ

 

 Read more: http://thelasthearth.com/thread/53/death-baby-curious-lyanna-stark?page=8#ixzz4KjCxPTNP

 

 

[SFDanny]

28 minutes ago, Voice said:

You listed only a part of what that google search implies. <snip>

So with all of that in mind, we must at least consider that blue roses = lies. They are not natural. Winterfell's "Glass Gardens" contain the holy grail of horticulturalists. But, GRRM is a well-known skeptic of religion, and I think an easy argument can be made that he views such holy grails as tainted and a source of corruption. Winter roses blue as frost are the sigil of lies, and, GRRM has already told their story:

I thought I summarized a good deal of the symbolism of the Blue Rose, but I admit I left out Williams's "Glass Menagerie." Not sure what Williams's take on it has to do with Martin's, but ok. I'm also not sure what Martin playing with the symbolism of a glass flower has to do with blue roses, but I'll read the tale to be sure. I'm more interested in his story of Bitterblooms and whether or not this has blue roses = spite. I'll take a listen and get back to you later on that. Not that that would qualify as "in world."

[Voice]

10 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

I thought I summarized a good deal of the symbolism of the Blue Rose, but I admit I left out Williams's "Glass Menagerie." Not sure what Williams's take on it has to do with Martin's, but ok.

Honestly, I thought that one fit better with the idea of Rhaegar+Lyanna. Tragic love story and all...

But yes, tis better to focus on Martin's works imo.

 

10 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

I'm also not sure what Martin playing with the symbolism of a glass flower has to do with blue roses, but I'll read the tale to be sure.

Considering we once saw a blue flower growing from a chink in a wall of ice, I think it bears some merit.

Once you read/listen to it, I think you'll be reminded of several ASOIAF themes/characters.

 

10 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

I'm more interested in his story of Bitterblooms and whether or not this has blue roses = spite. I'll take a listen and get back to you later on that.

  I love the audiobook version. Great story. If you read it, you'll notice that the character "Jon" is spelled like our Jon.

I wouldn't call it "spite." That's @Sly Wren's take on them.

I call them lies. Blue Roses = Bittersweet Lies.

 

[nanother]

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

Agreed--but we do know that Lyanna is generalizing her insights to apply to men in general. So, seems like Martin is telling us how Lyanna judges men: by what they do before.

And if she thinks men who sleep around will keep doing so, seems very likely she'd realize that a man who's willing to set aside a wife and children could be willing to do it again.

This is a very interesting idea--a manipulator and a player? Not sure I can see that in Lyanna: she seems more to say what she thinks and do what she wants. A lot like Arya. Wolf-blood--which gets her in trouble.

But deceived? Maybe. But that's one of the reasons why I think Martin's showing us Lyanna's rather mature assessment of men (if potentially somewhat cynical) is important.

Yeah, she does sound mature and assertive in those few brief sentences. However, Ned speaks about two sides of Lyanna - her wolf blood and the 'steel' beneath her beauty, and her love of flowers. Just because we happen to see the 'steel' in this scene, she doesn't necessarily have to be this super mature, rational person. We might yet see her 'flowery' side as well. Ned calls her a child-woman for a reason, I'm sure.

Also bear in mind that Lyanna must have been something like 12-13 at most when she was betrothed to Robert. I'm not too sure where her conviction came from, but probably not from life experience...

And yeah, whether she's deceived, deceiving herself, or deceiving others (IF that's indeed what the blue roses point towards, which is far from sure), I wonder how that works together with her 'wolf blood' ...

 

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

Also, the roses seem fine per se, unless they are "given" from one rival family to another: Bael to Stark, Rhaegar to Starks, Cersei's use of the Blue Bard.

So, maybe the treachery is in the human use, vs. in the roses per se???

I would agree, had the winter roses not been so integral to the events and symbolism surrounding Lyanna. But we never see 'just winter roses', without the human factor - we have

• Lyanna being 'crowned' with winter roses
• Ned's dream of Lyanna (well, her statue) with a garland of winter roses weeping blood
• Theon's dream of Lyanna with the crown of winter roses and gown spattered with gore
• Lyanna clutching blackened rose petals on her deathbed (in the room smelling of blood and roses)
• storm of blue rose petals in the ToJ dream
• the Bael tale
• I might be forgetting something

I doubt we'd get this sort of imagery if the roses were just a simple insult (or even an insult someone capitalised on and framed Rhaegar with the kidnapping). So yeah, I think Martin is trying to tell us something important with that line:

Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion's crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses.

"Gods save me," Ned wept. "I am going mad."

 

 

[Little Scribe of Naath]

6 minutes ago, nanother said:

And yeah, whether she's deceived, deceiving herself, or deceiving others (IF that's indeed what the blue roses point towards, which is far from sure), I wonder how that works together with her 'wolf blood' ..

I think this is what happens in the Bitterblooms story, if I'm not wrong. The blue flowers there (as also the relationship between the protagonists) are somewhat of a sweet lie, a fantasy, which shatters when the deceived party realises the deception.

The protagonist is basically saved from danger by the deceiver, and manipulated into staying with the deceiver (and entering into a sexual relationship with her). 
(feel free to correct me on this)

[Little Scribe of Naath]

10 minutes ago, nanother said:

Yeah, she does sound mature and assertive in those few brief sentences. However, Ned speaks about two sides of Lyanna - her wolf blood and the 'steel' beneath her beauty, and her love of flowers. Just because we happen to see the 'steel' in this scene, she doesn't necessarily have to be this super mature, rational person. We might yet see her 'flowery' side as well. Ned calls her a child-woman for a reason, I'm sure.

Also bear in mind that Lyanna must have been something like 12-13 at most when she was betrothed to Robert. I'm not too sure where her conviction came from, but probably not from life experience...

And I heartily agree with this. She was 14, not 34. There's nothing to suggest that because she was mature about Robert, she couldn't have fallen for Rhaegar and chosen to ignore her "rational" side for a while. It's the kind of thing which happens at 14. Rhaegar was like the Ryan Gosling of Westeros, for heavens sake, and compared to Robert, a perfect gentleman. 

[nanother]

25 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

I thought I summarized a good deal of the symbolism of the Blue Rose, but I admit I left out Williams's "Glass Menagerie." Not sure what Williams's take on it has to do with Martin's, but ok. I'm also not sure what Martin playing with the symbolism of a glass flower has to do with blue roses, but I'll read the tale to be sure. I'm more interested in his story of Bitterblooms and whether or not this has blue roses = spite. I'll take a listen and get back to you later on that. Not that that would qualify as "in world."

 

9 minutes ago, Voice said:

  I love the audiobook version. Great story. If you read it, you'll notice that the character "Jon" is spelled like our Jon.

I wouldn't call it "spite." That's @Sly Wren's take on them.

I call them lies. Blue Roses = Bittersweet Lies.

 

 

3 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

I think this is what happens in the Bitterblooms story, if I'm not wrong. The blue flowers there (as also the relationship between the protagonists) are somewhat of a sweet lie, a fantasy, which shatters when the deceived party realises the deception.
(feel free to correct me on this)

Well, yes and no. My understanding is that the bitterblooms are the hallmark of the 'deceiver', but they're quite real themselves, even though they should be impossible according to the narrator. Not only that, but they're instrumental in dispelling the illusion and proving the reality of the whole thing. But yes, it's centered on a sweet deception (self-deception, I might add) that is also the deceiver's last refuge against ... despair? death?

[Little Scribe of Naath]

Just now, nanother said:

 

 

Well, yes and no. My understanding is that the bitterblooms are the hallmark of the 'deceiver', but they're quite real themselves, even though they should be impossible according to the narrator. Not only that, but they're instrumental in dispelling the illusion and proving the reality of the whole thing. But yes, it's centered on a sweet deception (self-deception, I might add) that is also the deceiver's last refuge against ... despair? death?

Yes. One can look at it in this way - when we have Arbor Gold in a scene, for example, we know there's a lie going on in the scene somewhere. It could be similar for the blue roses -  "in world" intent may be different from what the "meta-textual" connotation is. As you have rightly pointed out, the blue roses have a very visceral connection to Lyanna, blood, death, possibly deception,maybe a political pawn (like the Blue Bard was).

[SFDanny]

17 minutes ago, nanother said:

Yeah, she does sound mature and assertive in those few brief sentences. However, Ned speaks about two sides of Lyanna - her wolf blood and the 'steel' beneath her beauty, and her love of flowers. Just because we happen to see the 'steel' in this scene, she doesn't necessarily have to be this super mature, rational person. We might yet see her 'flowery' side as well. Ned calls her a child-woman for a reason, I'm sure.

As in Lyanna crying during Rhaegar's song? I agree, and think it's important to see different layers going on in the crowning scene for different individuals.

[wolfmaid7]

34 minutes ago, Voice said:

Yup.

In fact, that is pretty much the only thing GRRM has ever told us about Lyanna.

With all due respect to @J. Stargaryen and @Kingmonkey, with whom I agree on a great many things... I've yet to hear a compelling argument that accounts for Lyanna's own convictions.

Considering how little of her persona we ever learn, I am surprised that people would seek to rationalize (or at times, even ignore) the one and only opinion she ever gave in the books. 

It requires no interpretation whatsoever, as it is very simple:

Lyanna did not approve of men keeping multiple beds.

Anything beyond that is simply not canon. Which is fine. If all we did was repeat canon, the forums would be incredibly boring. But the text is quite clear on this point, and I think many fans tend to ignore it. That goes for @wolfmaid7's "R"+L=J theory as well.

What did Lyanna want?

Whom did Lyanna want?

We cannot know.

But we do know that she did not want a man who kept multiple beds.

All very true but in the case of Robert we know when.The night of the bethrothal.Meaning plenty of time between that moment and the time she goes missing for her to be proven right or wrong.

That being said it could would have gone one of two ways.As in the case of Cat and Ned,Dany and Drogo even Jon and Ygritte.Things change because what you thought for sure didn't turn out to be so.Love is sweet she said but it can't change a man's nature.She knows this from what experience?

 

[Sly Wren]

2 hours ago, Voice said:

In fact, that is pretty much the only thing GRRM has ever told us about Lyanna.

 

2 hours ago, Voice said:

But we do know that she did not want a man who kept multiple beds.

YUP! And that she judged men on past action. Rather like Arya and "liars."

[Sly Wren]

2 hours ago, SFDanny said:

This much we agree on. I've proposed that Rhaegar's act is a primarily a political one. A statement of honoring Lyanna, and at the same time telling the Starks he stands with his father against the growing marriage alliances against the crown. I think it is done in the same language Aerys's used by honoring Jaime with his appointment to the Kingsguard. Aerys stops the Tully/Lannister betrothal by honoring Jaime and takes him as his own.

Workable. But that was flat-out spite on Aerys' part. Strategic and effective--but spiteful and petty and short sighted. A smack down of Tywin.

2 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Rhaegar honors Lyanna and stakes his claim on her at the same time. He tells the Starks he stands between Robert and Lyanna in this marriage, and, more, broadly in the aims of Rickard's Southron Ambitions. Furthermore, I think it is payback for the dishonor done to Lady Ashara by the Starks. They used her to deliver a message to Rhaegar about what they thought of his scheme to use a council to move his father off the throne.

But right now, the offense against Ashara and all of that. . . . sounds like she turned "to" a Stark. Not "on" one. So, the Ashara angle seems speculative at best. 

Whereas we have Bael's intent and Cersei's intent in using the Blue Bard. And what we are told about Rhaegar's intent in convening the Tourney, as you say.

But the Starks with their Laughing Tree stunt set Aerys into a tizzy. Rhaegar not only had his plan of meeting with other lords screwed up by devil Daddy, he now had his father even angrier--"the king was wroth." Just like the Bael Tale. The Starks and their allies are messing up months of Rhaegar's work--important work. Asserting power that Rhaegar doesn't want them to have--like Bael vs. Stark. And this is Rhaegar's push back.

If he is staking claim to Lyanna, that would fit much better with the rape scenario (a truly terrible phrase, but I can't think of another one). Not love. Claiming her as part of the putting the Starks in their place. We know he wanted Harrenhal as a way to take out his father. We know it went poorly. And we know the Laughing Tree stunt made things worse. That stuff we at least know.

But I concede that we know so little about Ashara that the above is possible. One way or another, those roses are an insult to the Starks in general. 

2 hours ago, SFDanny said:

All that said, it doesn't mean there aren't layers of things going on in this scene. It doesn't preclude attraction or even love. Although, the use of these flowers sends a message to Lyanna of the impossible nature of any attraction. Not of spite.

The flowers themselves do seem to mean some sort of ideal gone wrong. Backfiring. But Rhaegar's intent in giving the roses, like Bael's intent and Cersei's intent--that would be spite. An attack on an enemy. A strategic desire to smack down an upstart. 

2 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Your inclusion of Bael's story and the blue rose he leaves, seems to exclude love between Bael and the Stark daughter

No--Ygritte says: 

Quote

"No. They had been in Winterfell all the time, hiding with the dead beneath the castle. The maid loved Bael so dearly she bore him a son, the song says . . . though if truth be told, all the maids love Bael in them songs he wrote. Be that as it may, what's certain is that Bael left the child in payment for the rose he'd plucked unasked, and that the boy grew to be the next Lord Stark. So there it is—you have Bael's blood in you, same as me." Clash, Jon VI.

Bael wrote the song like he wrote all of his songs--saying that the women loved him.

And Ygritte slaps a disclaimer on the idea that the maid loved Bael. Making it clear that Bael always said that--so, no reason on earth to assume it must be true.

Bael also doesn't imply or state that he loved the women in his songs (or, if he does, Ygritte doesnt' mention it). No mention of loving Baelette in specific. The story makes it very clear that Bael only went to Winterfell to smackdown the Stark. Baelette doesn't even get a mention until after he takes her. 

So, seems like Ygritte has given plenty of reason to doubt the love story. Stonesnake might have it right on this: "murderer, robber, and raper."

2 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Something I think her suicide when her son unknowingly kills his father points to, instead of spite.

But the context of the story is kin and kinslaying. Ygritte starts telling it after Jon asks if the men who died were her kin and she answers that she and Jon are kind via Bael. And then the tale ends with the unknowing kinslaying of Bael by his son. 

Quote

"Aye," she said, "but the gods hate kinslayers, even when they kill unknowing. When Lord Stark returned from the battle and his mother saw Bael's head upon his spear, she threw herself from a tower in her grief. Her son did not long outlive her. One o' his lords peeled the skin off him and wore him for a cloak." Clash, Jon VI.

The "real" end, the darker end of all of this is a moral tale about the dangers of kinslaying. That's the context in which we learn of Baelette's suicide. So, makes sense that she's horrified her son is a kinslayer because she didn't tell him the truth. And given the disclaimer Ygritte puts on the love angle, that would fit better. 

2 hours ago, SFDanny said:

The Blue Bard is just an example of Cersei's thoughtless cruelty, not of spite, or any other emotion.

You don't think she enjoys torturing and taking down Marg? Hmmm. Her thoughts seem . . . spiteful. And smacking an enemy. And no love at all. Taking something Marg really liked (the Blue Bard) and turning it into a weapon against her. 

1 hour ago, Voice said:

I wouldn't call it "spite." That's @Sly Wren's take on them.

I call them lies. Blue Roses = Bittersweet Lies.

HA! All fair. So, not so much "the roses=spite." They seem to be tied to lies as you say. Or ideals misused and gone horribly wrong.

But the intent of the giver? Smacking down an enemy--and often in a spiteful manner: that fits both Bael and Cersei.

[Voice]

1 hour ago, nanother said:

Well, yes and no. My understanding is that the bitterblooms are the hallmark of the 'deceiver', but they're quite real themselves, even though they should be impossible according to the narrator. Not only that, but they're instrumental in dispelling the illusion and proving the reality of the whole thing. But yes, it's centered on a sweet deception (self-deception, I might add) that is also the deceiver's last refuge against ... despair? death?

Very much so. GRRM places them amidst a place where long winter has come.

Blue as the eyes of death.

 

1 hour ago, nanother said:

Yeah, she does sound mature and assertive in those few brief sentences. However, Ned speaks about two sides of Lyanna - her wolf blood and the 'steel' beneath her beauty, and her love of flowers. Just because we happen to see the 'steel' in this scene, she doesn't necessarily have to be this super mature, rational person. We might yet see her 'flowery' side as well. Ned calls her a child-woman for a reason, I'm sure.

Also bear in mind that Lyanna must have been something like 12-13 at most when she was betrothed to Robert. I'm not too sure where her conviction came from, but probably not from life experience...

And yeah, whether she's deceived, deceiving herself, or deceiving others (IF that's indeed what the blue roses point towards, which is far from sure), I wonder how that works together with her 'wolf blood' ...

 

I would agree, had the winter roses not been so integral to the events and symbolism surrounding Lyanna. But we never see 'just winter roses', without the human factor - we have

• Lyanna being 'crowned' with winter roses
• Ned's dream of Lyanna (well, her statue) with a garland of winter roses weeping blood
• Theon's dream of Lyanna with the crown of winter roses and gown spattered with gore
• Lyanna clutching blackened rose petals on her deathbed (in the room smelling of blood and roses)
• storm of blue rose petals in the ToJ dream
• the Bael tale
• I might be forgetting something

I doubt we'd get this sort of imagery if the roses were just a simple insult (or even an insult someone capitalised on and framed Rhaegar with the kidnapping). So yeah, I think Martin is trying to tell us something important with that line:

Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion's crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses.

"Gods save me," Ned wept. "I am going mad."

 

 

A love and fondness for flowers does not a girly-girl make. Arya was quite fond of flowers too, you will recall...

Arya shrugged. "Hold still," she snapped at Nymeria, "I'm not hurting you." Then to Sansa she said, "When we were crossing the Neck, I counted thirty-six flowers I never saw before, and Mycah showed me a lizard-lion."

Sansa shuddered. They had been twelve days crossing the Neck, rumbling down a crooked causeway through an endless black bog, and she had hated every moment of it. The air had been damp and clammy, the causeway so narrow they could not even make proper camp at night, they had to stop right on the kingsroad. Dense thickets of half-drowned trees pressed close around them, branches dripping with curtains of pale fungus. Huge flowers bloomed in the mud and floated on pools of stagnant water, but if you were stupid enough to leave the causeway to pluck them, there were quicksands waiting to suck you down, and snakes watching from the trees, and lizard-lions floating half-submerged in the water, like black logs with eyes and teeth.

None of which stopped Arya, of course. One day she came back grinning her horsey grin, her hair all tangled and her clothes covered in mud, clutching a raggedy bunch of purple and green flowers for Father. Sansa kept hoping he would tell Arya to behave herself and act like the highborn lady she was supposed to be, but he never did, he only hugged her and thanked her for the flowers. That just made her worse.

Then it turned out the purple flowers were called poison kisses, and Arya got a rash on her arms. Sansa would have thought that might have taught her a lesson, but Arya laughed about it, and the next day she rubbed mud all over her arms like some ignorant bog woman just because her friend Mycah told her it would stop the itching. She had bruises on her arms and shoulders too, dark purple welts and faded green-and-yellow splotches; Sansa had seen them when her sister undressed for sleep. How she had gotten those only the seven gods knew.

 

1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

As in Lyanna crying during Rhaegar's song? I agree, and think it's important to see different layers going on in the crowning scene for different individuals.

Crying? I thought she only sniffled.

No need to split those hairs though, I suppose.

 

1 hour ago, wolfmaid7 said:

All very true but in the case of Robert we know when.The night of the bethrothal.Meaning plenty of time between that moment and the time she goes missing for her to be proven right or wrong.

That being said it could would have gone one of two ways.As in the case of Cat and Ned,Dany and Drogo even Jon and Ygritte.Things change because what you thought for sure didn't turn out to be so.Love is sweet she said but it can't change a man's nature.She knows this from what experience?

 

Good points, but would only support a rapey version of Robert+Lyanna imo. And Lyanna's tone does not sound like that of a victim.

 

28 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

 

YUP! And that she judged men on past action. Rather like Arya and "liars."

Arya is the key.

Ned didn't compare Lyanna to his beautiful daughter that would flourish in a southron court. The one who was prone to swooning for princes and songs.

Instead, Ned compared Lyanna to his wolf-blooded daughter with an iron will.

Too often theories involving Lyanna focus upon what is known about her proposed partners, and neglect what we know about her.

That is understandable, considering we know so little. But the precious few things we do know about Lyanna should be the first step in any scenario.

She was not like Sansa, who fell in love with princes. She was like Arya, who beat them up. Just sayin.

[Sly Wren]

2 hours ago, nanother said:

Yeah, she does sound mature and assertive in those few brief sentences. However, Ned speaks about two sides of Lyanna - her wolf blood and the 'steel' beneath her beauty, and her love of flowers. Just because we happen to see the 'steel' in this scene, she doesn't necessarily have to be this super mature, rational person. We might yet see her 'flowery' side as well. Ned calls her a child-woman for a reason, I'm sure.

But that might also depend on what the "flowery" side was.

As @Voice pointed out elsewhere, we've seen Arya's "flowery side."

ETA: totally ninjaed by @Voice! But here's my take, too. Just in case.

 

Quote

 

 

Arya shrugged. "Hold still," she snapped at Nymeria, "I'm not hurting you." Then to Sansa she said, "When we were crossing the Neck, I counted thirty-six flowers I never saw before, and Mycah showed me a lizard-lion." 

Sansa shuddered. They had been twelve days crossing the Neck, rumbling down a crooked causeway through an endless black bog, and she had hated every moment of it. The air had been damp and clammy, the causeway so narrow they could not even make proper camp at night, they had to stop right on the kingsroad. Dense thickets of half-drowned trees pressed close around them, branches dripping with curtains of pale fungus. Huge flowers bloomed in the mud and floated on pools of stagnant water, but if you were stupid enough to leave the causeway to pluck them, there were quicksands waiting to suck you down, and snakes watching from the trees, and lizard-lions floating half-submerged in the water, like black logs with eyes and teeth.

None of which stopped Arya, of course. One day she came back grinning her horsey grin, her hair all tangled and her clothes covered in mud, clutching a raggedy bunch of purple and green flowers for Father. Sansa kept hoping he would tell Arya to behave herself and act like the highborn lady she was supposed to be, but he never did, he only hugged her and thanked her for the flowers. That just made her worse. Game, Sansa I

Arya loves flowers--but not in a romantic way. She likes how they look. She likes giving them to those she loves. She likes finding new ones she's never seen before. She likes going riding and seeing flowers--and we know Lyanna loved both riding and flowers.

Martin's told us that Lyanna and Arya are similar at least in some ways--seems like there's a good chance Lyanna had a similar love of flowers. Why Ned brings Lyanna flowers often. And loves and thanks Arya for bringing him flowers, no matter how messy she gets.

Seems like there's a chance that's Lyanna's "flowery" nature, too. 

Quote

Also bear in mind that Lyanna must have been something like 12-13 at most when she was betrothed to Robert. I'm not too sure where her conviction came from, but probably not from life experience...

Agreed--but that might make her prejudice more intense. Like Arya with liars. And the word "stupid."

Quote

I would agree, had the winter roses not been so integral to the events and symbolism surrounding Lyanna. But we never see 'just winter roses', without the human factor - we have

• Lyanna being 'crowned' with winter roses
• Ned's dream of Lyanna (well, her statue) with a garland of winter roses weeping blood
• Theon's dream of Lyanna with the crown of winter roses and gown spattered with gore
• Lyanna clutching blackened rose petals on her deathbed (in the room smelling of blood and roses)
• storm of blue rose petals in the ToJ dream
• the Bael tale
• I might be forgetting something

I doubt we'd get this sort of imagery if the roses were just a simple insult (or even an insult someone capitalised on and framed Rhaegar with the kidnapping). So yeah, I think Martin is trying to tell us something important with that line:

Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion's crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses.

"Gods save me," Ned wept. "I am going mad."

Excellent points. And you are right--I dismissed Lyanna's love for flowers and blue roses in general too easily. I was focusing on Rhaegar's intent in giving the flowers--which I think is what Martin is telling us with Bael and Cersei.

But you are right--she loved flowers and blue roses. So, I'm wondering if, again, it isn't like Arya:

Quote

Then it turned out the purple flowers were called poison kisses, and Arya got a rash on her arms. Sansa would have thought that might have taught her a lesson, but Arya laughed about it, and the next day she rubbed mud all over her arms like some ignorant bog woman just because her friend Mycah told her it would stop the itching. She had bruises on her arms and shoulders too, dark purple welts and faded green-and-yellow splotches; Sansa had seen them when her sister undressed for sleep. How she had gotten those only the seven gods knew. Game, Sansa I

I'm wondering if Lyanna, like Arya, didn't mind too much that the flowers she loved got used against her and her family. Like Arya still loves flowers and exploring even after the rash. She loves them any way.

But for Ned, he can't get past the horror of what the roses wrought.

To play devil's advocate against my own argument, this might even mean Lyanna could overlook Rhaegar's intent in giving the flowers in the first place. Could let it go.

But then we're up against her statements on men and their nature. So, perhaps Lyanna could let go of Rhaegar's intent. But that wouldn't mean she'd love him.

And it wouldn't make the memory of the result of that crown any less horrifying to Ned.

[Sly Wren]

3 minutes ago, Voice said:

Arya is the key.

Ned didn't compare Lyanna to his beautiful daughter that would flourish in a southron court. The one who was prone to swooning for princes and songs.

Instead, Ned compared Lyanna to his wolf-blooded daughter with an iron will.

Too often theories involving Lyanna focus upon what is known about her proposed partners, and neglect what we know about her.

That is understandable, considering we know so little. But the precious few things we do know about Lyanna should be the first step in any scenario.

She was not like Sansa, who fell in love with princes. She was like Arya, who beat them up. Just sayin.

YUP! Especially on the iron will. Arya's stubbornness gets her in trouble. Especially in conjunction with her wildness.

The idea that Lyanna was just as stubborn--look at her defense of Howland. That statement about what "a man" is--seems like there's a good chance she'd stick to it as hard as Arya sticks to what a liar is. Or what "stupid" is.

Which also reminds me of Arya's reaction to Ned Dayne. . .

[Voice]

5 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

But that might also depend on what the "flowery" side was.

As @Voice pointed out elsewhere, we've seen Arya's "flowery side."

ETA: ninjaed by @Voice!

LOL! Great minds.

Apparently, we happened to be perusing the same pages.

It's funny, but GRRM really does love strong female protagonists, and tends to play with the damsel in distress trope in very feminist ways. I think the dude might be more of a feminist than most of the women I know.

Remember when Cersei was a damsel in distress?

Ygritte?

Catelyn?

Val?

Hard to imagine, right?

Remember when Dany was a child-woman in distress?

When GRRM's women are backed into a corner, men die... with barely enough time to utter a name.

 

2 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

YUP! Especially on the iron will. Arya's stubbornness gets her in trouble. Especially in conjunction with her wildness.

The idea that Lyanna was just as stubborn--look at her defense of Howland. That statement about what "a man" is--seems like there's a good chance she'd stick to it as hard as Arya sticks to what a liar is. Or what "stupid" is.

Which also reminds me of Arya's reaction to Ned Dayne. . .

Yup. The little we know regarding Lyanna paints a very different picture than that of swooning polygamist.

And yes. That interaction between Arya Stark and Lord Ned Dayne is particularly interesting. Notice that the she-wolf is unusually disarmed by his demeanor.