Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 3

[Sly Wren]

9 minutes ago, Voice said:

LOL! Great minds.

Apparently, we happened to be perusing the same pages.

10 minutes ago, Voice said:

When GRRM's women are backed into a corner, men die... with barely enough time to utter a name.

Yes--a statement that gives me hope for Sansa.

But very much we see this with Arya--it steels her spine. She holds to her preconceptions and judgments even harder at times. Makes me think that Lyanna would be likely to do the same.

And we know that Lyanna's: protective about her father's/northern men. Thinks northerners should stand up for themselves.

Close in a pack with her family.

She dislikes being teased over pretty songs.

And that she thinks men who stray are likely to do it again.

So, if Lyanna and Arya are similarly fierce, seems there's a chance Lyanna would do as Arya does: hold to her notions even tighter. And call anyone who contradicts her stupid. Or a liar.

14 minutes ago, Voice said:

Yup. The little we know regarding Lyanna paints a very different picture than that of swooning polygamist.

Amen.

14 minutes ago, Voice said:

And yes. That interaction between Arya Stark and Lord Ned Dayne is particularly interesting. Notice that the she-wolf is unusually disarmed by his demeanor.

Apparently, there ain't nothing like a Dayne for calming the face-punching she-wolf.

Martin even shows us the contrast between her reactions to Gendry and her reaction to Ned, just in case we need the comparison. And she responds to Ned's sincerity and courtesy in ways we do not see elsewhere.

Except, of course, with some of her family. Almost like the Daynes really are long lost family. . . . 

[nanother]

@Sly Wren and @Voice

Yes, it's possible that Lyanna's flowery side was like Arya's. I wouldn't bank on that, though. For one, based on that one scene alone, would Jon think of regularly bringing flowers to Arya's grave, like Ned did with Lyanna? I think it unlikely (at least not because of Arya's fondness of flowers, I don't think). Also, as @SFDanny points out, sniffling at Rhaegar's song is important. Arya would be far more likely to just conclude that it's 'stupid'. And I don't know about flowers in general, but Lyanna's relationship with blue roses certainly seems very emotional and visceral (both figuratively, and literally lol) to me.

Re: Bael parallels: I think it's worth pointing out that while spite does seem to be a common element in the intent, the romantic/sexual aspect is also pretty much there. IIRC Cersei intends to accuse Margaery with fornication, and both Bael-ish and his bard are very much attracted to Sansa (and even the plotting involves arranging a marriage for her)

Also, for some reason I didn't realise earlier that much like the Bael story, and the similarities to Sidhe lore that were so thoroughly discussed in old Heresies, bitterblooms also seem to have an Otherworldly quality to them. They are literally from a different world to begin with, they belong to a 'magical', long-lived being, who keeps the hero in her 'realm' with trickery, and even the passage of time feels different there. Not sure how (if) this applies to the Bael-parallels, though. Need to go to sleep now, in any case...

[Sly Wren]

22 minutes ago, nanother said:

@Sly Wren and @Voice

Yes, it's possible that Lyanna's flowery side was like Arya's. I wouldn't bank on that, though. For one, based on that one scene alone, would Jon think of regularly bringing flowers to Arya's grave, like Ned did with Lyanna? I think it unlikely (at least not because of Arya's fondness of flowers, I don't think).

You don't think if Arya died that Jon would bring her flowers? He's willing to go to Winterfell for her against his oath. . .

But you're right in that we don't have Jon associate Arya with flowers. The blue roses are Lyanna specific. Why/how she loves them is not specified yet by Martin.

But in the same book where Ned says that about Lyanna, Martin takes the time to show us Arya's love for flowers. And to have Ned tell us Arya is like Lyanna in some ways. So, seems like there's a good chance for a similarity.

I do think Ned's flower bringing is also tied to the horror of Lyanna's death. And that the blue crown and the horror it is in Ned's memory are directly tied to that crowning. And all that followed from it.

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Also, as @SFDanny points out, sniffling at Rhaegar's song is important. Arya would be far more likely to just conclude that it's 'stupid'. And I don't know about flowers in general, but Lyanna's relationship with blue roses certainly seems very emotional and visceral (both figuratively, and literally lol) to me.

Martin does give us a moment of Arya getting sentimental/sad/nostaligic over a song: 

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So the singer played for her, so soft and sad that Arya only heard snatches of the words, though the tune was half-familiar. Sansa would know it, I bet. Her sister had known all the songs, and she could even play a little, and sing so sweetly. All I could ever do was shout the words. Storm, Arya IV

Apparently, even Arya can be moved to sadness by music. Depending on context. We need to know the context of Rhaegar's song in Lyanna's head. But so far, in the same novel that we learn about Lyanna's sniffling at a sad song, we hear that Arya, too, is moved by a sad song. But not for a romanic reason. For nostalgic, homesick ones.

So, the Wolf-maid's sniffles may not have been romantic at all. 

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Re: Bael parallels: I think it's worth pointing out that while spite does seem to be a common element in the intent, the romantic/sexual aspect is also pretty much there. IIRC Cersei intends to accuse Margaery with fornication, and both Bael-ish and his bard are very much attracted to Sansa (and even the plotting involves arranging a marriage for her)

I agree. It's one of the reason why I think the rape scenario works better for Rhaegar as father, both symbolically and from the psychology of Lyanna perspective.

It's just hard to make work on the psychological side for Rhaegar and for Ned.

Though I would also point out that in the Cersei scenario, it's a false accusation. The Bard got framed. The Bard and the Bael-like plotter are different people. And in the Sansa scenario, even though Marillion wanted her and is no angel, he, too, is framed by the master plotter--the "singer" and the "plotter" are different people in these current scenarios. Vs. what they are in the Bael Tale.

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Also, for some reason I didn't realise earlier that much like the Bael story, and the similarities to Sidhe lore that were so thoroughly discussed in old Heresies, bitterblooms also seem to have an Otherworldly quality to them. They are literally from a different world to begin with, they belong to a 'magical', long-lived being, who keeps the hero in her 'realm' with trickery, and even the passage of time feels different there. Not sure how (if) this applies to the Bael-parallels, though.

The otherworldly stealing the woman--ties into the idea of the women who lie with the Others in Nan's tales. 

But it also seems to point out that if Bael wasn't supernatural, the story as he presents it seems implausible at best. 

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Need to go to sleep now, in any case...

Sleep well, friend. 

[Voice]

11 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Yes--a statement that gives me hope for Sansa.

I have hope for Sansa, but little optimism. And I have a huge crush on Sophie Turner, so this is hard for me to say... LOL

Unlike Lyanna, rather than defend fellow northmen from such bravado, Sansa fell in love with it. Sansa loved Joffrey, and wanted to have his babies even after she betrayed her sister, forcing her to send Nymeria into exile, and even after this lie backfired and caused Lady to be executed.

Rather than defend her pack against the throne, like Arya, she offered it her own father's head.

 

11 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

But very much we see this with Arya--it steels her spine. She holds to her preconceptions and judgments even harder at times. Makes me think that Lyanna would be likely to do the same.

And we know that Lyanna's: protective about her father's/northern men. Thinks northerners should stand up for themselves.

Close in a pack with her family.

She dislikes being teased over pretty songs.

And that she thinks men who stray are likely to do it again.

So, if Lyanna and Arya are similarly fierce, seems there's a chance Lyanna would do as Arya does: hold to her notions even tighter. And call anyone who contradicts her stupid. Or a liar.

Or let them be stoved in by a warhammer.

 

11 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Amen.

And I didn't even mention the fact that in order to accept a non-rape Rhaegar+Lyanna scenario, we also have to accept that unlike Sansa after Joffrey's beheading of her father, that Lyanna would have been cool with a prince whose family had just executed her father and brother....

So in addition to being a swooning polygamist, she would have to be a swooning polygamist who was nurturing a romance with a married father of two, after her father and brother were brought to the king's justice by that very man's father.

...at the age of fourteen.

So imagine post-Ned, post-Red Wedding Sansa. She used to swoon for princes 24/7, but even she can't after that.

So again, I feel like most theories neglect what we know of Lyanna's character and convictions.

 

11 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Apparently, there ain't nothing like a Dayne for calming the face-punching she-wolf.

Martin even shows us the contrast between her reactions to Gendry and her reaction to Ned, just in case we need the comparison. And she responds to Ned's sincerity and courtesy in ways we do not see elsewhere.

Except, of course, with some of her family. Almost like the Daynes really are long lost family. . . . 

Hmm...

One does wonder.

Arthur was a Dayne... the brother of the man who brought him down?

 

9 minutes ago, nanother said:

@Sly Wren and @Voice

Yes, it's possible that Lyanna's flowery side was like Arya's. I wouldn't bank on that, though. For one, based on that one scene alone, would Jon think of regularly bringing flowers to Arya's grave, like Ned did with Lyanna? I think it unlikely (at least not because of Arya's fondness of flowers, I don't think). Also, as @SFDanny points out, sniffling at Rhaegar's song is important. Arya would be far more likely to just conclude that it's 'stupid'. And I don't know about flowers in general, but Lyanna's relationship with blue roses certainly seems very emotional and visceral (both figuratively, and literally lol) to me.

If my kid sister enjoyed collecting flowers and gave herself rashes rashes from them, yes. I would bring her flowers if she died before her time.

And it would be a very sad, bittersweet ritual.

 

9 minutes ago, nanother said:

Also, for some reason I didn't realise earlier that much like the Bael story, and the similarities to Sidhe lore that were so thoroughly discussed in old Heresies, bitterblooms also seem to have an Otherworldly quality to them. They are literally from a different world to begin with, they belong to a 'magical', long-lived being, who keeps the hero in her 'realm' with trickery, and even the passage of time feels different there. Not sure how (if) this applies to the Bael-parallels, though. Need to go to sleep now, in any case...

Yes indeed! And what are Glass Gardens if not Other-Worldly?

[SFDanny]

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

Workable. But that was flat-out spite on Aerys' part. Strategic and effective--but spiteful and petty and short sighted. A smack down of Tywin.

Well, yes, but for our discussion the point is two things: Done through "honoring" Jaime, and no blue roses.

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

But right now, the offense against Ashara and all of that. . . . sounds like she turned "to" a Stark. Not "on" one. So, the Ashara angle seems speculative at best. 

Whereas we have Bael's intent and Cersei's intent in using the Blue Bard. And what we are told about Rhaegar's intent in convening the Tourney, as you say.

But the Starks with their Laughing Tree stunt set Aerys into a tizzy. Rhaegar not only had his plan of meeting with other lords screwed up by devil Daddy, he now had his father even angrier--"the king was wroth." Just like the Bael Tale. The Starks and their allies are messing up months of Rhaegar's work--important work. Asserting power that Rhaegar doesn't want them to have--like Bael vs. Stark. And this is Rhaegar's push back.

If he is staking claim to Lyanna, that would fit much better with the rape scenario (a truly terrible phrase, but I can't think of another one). Not love. Claiming her as part of the putting the Starks in their place. We know he wanted Harrenhal as a way to take out his father. We know it went poorly. And we know the Laughing Tree stunt made things worse. That stuff we at least know.

I think Martin has gone to great lengths to keep both the "rape scenario" and "love scenario" as possible and he will likely do so until we get the actual details of what happened. Up to this point in the Harrenhal story, no one is claiming Rhaegar raped Lyanna. The crowning with blue roses doesn't have to symbolize force of any kind. And, again, like Jaime, it is both an honor on the surface, and a political act underneath. A political act readily understood by Brandon and Robert, who both are extremely angry. 

On who did the dishonoring of Ashara, I think the events portrayed in Meera's telling of the events point to one of the Stark brothers. My money is on Brandon, although I admit we need more information on this.

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

The flowers themselves do seem to mean some sort of ideal gone wrong. Backfiring. But Rhaegar's intent in giving the roses, like Bael's intent and Cersei's intent--that would be spite. An attack on an enemy. A strategic desire to smack down an upstart. 

I'd say they represent a love that can't happen, yet does. The master harpist Rhaegar surely knows the song of Bael the Bard and his love of a Stark daughter. He knows the northern cultural significance of the blue roses he is giving to Lyanna when he crowns her. He may even have played the song for her when she "sniffles." 

I think there are layers of meaning going on in this one act. I've often argued that Lyanna is the Knight of the Laughing Tree, and I think it likely Rhaegar, who is sent to find her out, discovers her and who she really is. I think it likely that the Prince is knowledgeable of Lyanna's actions with the three squires who beat Howland. How can Rhaegar not be attracted to such an unusual woman? That he uses her to convey a political message doesn't mean he feels nothing towards Lyanna, it only means he has little choice but to take a stand both his father and the STAB alliance will understand after the Starks reject his overture. That he duplicates the method his father used with Jaime, doesn't mean he is motivated by spite like his father is towards Tywin. Even there, Aerys has no real anger towards Jaime until he thinks he has come back to the tourney against his orders as a mystery knight. So too, Rhaegar has no reason to be spiteful towards Lyanna. At least that we know about.

2 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

No--Ygritte says: 

Bael wrote the song like he wrote all of his songs--saying that the women loved him.

And Ygritte slaps a disclaimer on the idea that the maid loved Bael. Making it clear that Bael always said that--so, no reason on earth to assume it must be true.

Bael also doesn't imply or state that he loved the women in his songs (or, if he does, Ygritte doesnt' mention it). No mention of loving Baelette in specific. The story makes it very clear that Bael only went to Winterfell to smackdown the Stark. Baelette doesn't even get a mention until after he takes her. 

So, seems like Ygritte has given plenty of reason to doubt the love story. Stonesnake might have it right on this: "murderer, robber, and raper."

But the context of the story is kin and kinslaying. Ygritte starts telling it after Jon asks if the men who died were her kin and she answers that she and Jon are kind via Bael. And then the tale ends with the unknowing kinslaying of Bael by his son. 

The "real" end, the darker end of all of this is a moral tale about the dangers of kinslaying. That's the context in which we learn of Baelette's suicide. So, makes sense that she's horrified her son is a kinslayer because she didn't tell him the truth. And given the disclaimer Ygritte puts on the love angle, that would fit better. 

I don't deny the dark end of the story, and the warning against kinslaying, but how can it be that the message of kinship between the Free Folk and the Starks gets lost? No, Ygritte tells her tale to provoke her lover over the lack of real differences between Free Folk and kneelers. And while she tweaks the long dead bard over his many loves, I think if there is any truth in the tale there is also love. Otherwise why tell it to Jon?

2 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

You don't think she enjoys torturing and taking down Marg? Hmmm. Her thoughts seem . . . spiteful. And smacking an enemy. And no love at all. Taking something Marg really liked (the Blue Bard) and turning it into a weapon against her. 

I don't think Cersei thinks at all about the Blue Bard and what he goes through. Which is what I mean about her "careless cruelty." I think it a stretch to connect Lyanna's and Bael's blue roses to him. Does she want to get at Margaery? Undoubtedly, but I don't think Cersei's paranoia and hatred for her Tyrell allies is part of the use of the symbolism of the blue winter roses.

[wolfmaid7]

On 9/18/2016 at 5:40 PM, nanother said:

First, whatever Martin had in mind back then, now it seems extremely unlikely that Yandel would try to put Aegon's birth half a year/almost a year before it actually happened. I'm sure he's tailoring details to suit the current regime, and obscures what needs to be obscured, but the birth of a Royal Prince is something that there would be plenty of records of, and a lot of people would still remember. Chancing such an obvious lie for no obvious gain just doesn't make sense. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall Ran saying that the False Spring stuff was written by Martin himself, so he likely thought it through before writing something like that down. Therefore I think if Aegon's exact time of birth is ever revealed, it'll be closer to what Yandel implies (however vaguely) than what follows from the SSM. That said, I do wonder why he's so vague and why no-one mentions Elia being pregnant at HH.

Second, it's indeed remarkable that he'd say that, especially in conjunction with the HotU vision. Of course, there's a chance that he made a mistake and never made the connection between Aegon being about a year old and the Sack being a year or so into the war (and that he appears to have changed his mind points towards this), but what if he knew what he was talking about? It'd mean Aegon was born about the same time the war started, or slightly before.  At the earliest, it'd be around the time, or very soon after Lyanna's kidnapping, at the latest a few months after. In this scenario, if he kidnapped Lyanna at all, he would have done so before he learned that Elia couldn't bear more children, and before the Aegon=PtwP stuff.

Had Martin been at all aware of this implication without it raising a mental alarm, that'd make it unlikely that he had prophecy or elopement in mind as Rhaegar's main motivation. Mind you, we also know that Rhaegar did go missing at some point, as he 'could not be found' by the time Aerys realised Robert was a serious threat, so there's still an opportunity for them to possibly spend time together, but I'm doubtful about Lyanna's openness to a relationship at that point. So even with the apparent change of mind, I'd consider this SSM (weak, due to the amount of speculation involved) evidence against RLJ, especially against the 'prophecy' and 'love at first sight' brands.

First, as to Yandel and the information he put in alot of which will be tailored to the sensitivites to the winning side .In this case the rebels.The information he put in;which is to say that Rhaegar couldn't be found anywhere.He wasn't at home on DS with his new son Aegon (did anyone check? And when did they check?) to confirm this or is he just saying so because Rhaegar didn't appear until the end of the war? Again what altering Aegon's birth ultimately does is put Rhaegar in a place he's less likely to be given Dany's vision.Now we can quibble about whether the author made a mistake or take his word for it concerning the information given by the Maesters.They are unreliable.

Alot of hearsay is flying around with regard to who wrote what in the WB and under what circumstances info was given.Somebody said GRRM was the one who wrote the False spring section.To me it doesn't matter because what's important is he pointed out that the unreliable narrator is in play.One can look at that,and look at the fact that no one mentions Rhaegar dissing his heavily pregnant wife,or Elia being pregnant at all and say its nothing.Something like that isn't nothing to me.

As to Aegon's birth being something that wouldn't go unoticed because its a Royal birth.We have to keep in mind something;people remember what is important for them to remember.What is important depends  on countless things one being peoples motives.No one present at Aegon's birth then,living today is going to remember exactly when Aegon was born.They are going to remember that he was and that was it. Does JonCon know the day? Is Tyrion's estimation of the boys age something subjective,is JonCon noticing anything at all or is internal motivations preventing him from thinking things through?

We have to consider this point when asserting that "people will remember when" the trust in the Maesters history and dates are what they say it is,but it is up to us to see even through their BS.

Was Rhaegar truly missing? If he was then how did his dad know where to find him and how did Jamie know he was in the South?Him missing was and is a matter of perception depending on who you ask no?

22 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

I don't think even Baelor the Blessed was gay, otherwise he wouldn't have had to lock his sisters up out of temptation's way. Unlike Baelor, Rhaegar certainly consummated his marriage and fathered two children in quick succession. He just doesn't seem a man who was casual about anything, including sex. Maybe unfair of me but I tend to think that for Rhaegar to be unfaithful to his wife it would have needed to be true love or the end of the world; while for Robert it would have required a few too many wines and nice pair of tits.

I think that Rhaegar and Lyanna being Jon's parents makes the most sense of the textual evidence that we have to date. The hows and whys of that relationship are a mystery yet to be solved. However, that mystery doesn't equate to Robert being the father when there are wheelhouse sized plot holes in the Robert and Lyanna equals Jon theory. Jon having to be significantly older than he is presented as being is just one of those plot holes.

This is a matter of perception and opnion based on faulty logic.Ned never gave anyone any info about Jon beyond Jon being his blood/son.Everything regarding the identity of his mother,to how old he might be,when and where he was born is other peoples assumption in the story.

On 9/18/2016 at 11:57 AM, Sly Wren said:

True--but given that both the Bael Tale and the Blue Bard Scenario make it clear that the offense was specific and intended--really seems like Rhaegar intended to insult/smack the Starks.

Maybe he was tricked, but Rhaegar had plenty of motive to put the upstarts back in their place: he was trying to run things to get Aerys off of the throne himself.

As you say, others may not have understood. The World Book writer is clearly befuddled. But It was intended as an insult and a smack from the start.

Oh i agree.I'm not arguing that he meant it as an insult.I agree it was meant as a dig against Lyanna's honor.

I just think that crowning Lyanna was a separate act when it came to whatever Rhaegar had planned re: His father.

On 9/18/2016 at 3:14 PM, The Ned's Little Girl said:

No, I disagree. I think when Lyanna says "never" that's not hyperbole or exaggeration; that's exactly what she means. And of course, she had no way of empirically knowing that she was right about that, but the later history of Robert Baratheon indicates that she was completely correct in her assessment.

Robert was said to have fucked an entire brothel in the middle of the Rebellion and he most likely fathered Gendry around the same time that Ned fathered Robb. These all happened while Lyanna was still alive.

And, of course, he was chronically unfaithful to Cersei. However understandable his reasons for that may be, it still proves that Lyanna's assessment was absolutely spot-on.

 

Robert's behavior and depiction by Ned are of a man who developed into someone drastically different that what he used to be and how Ned remembered him. The constant in Ned's ruminations about Robert is the extreme contrast between how he was as a young, powerful, energetic man and the sad, pathetic, overweight and irresponsible person he turned into. 

Ned only couples Robert with Lyanna in his mind when he remembers what she said to him on the night of her betrothal, which is hardly a ringing endorsement of Robert. And Ned, in fact, acknowledged the truth of Lyanna's words when he remembered how Robert would swear undying love to someone and then forget them by evening.

And I disagree that "we have this in spades". What we actually have in spades are constant assertions by you that this is the case, with zero supporting data that holds up to even the mildest scrutiny.

Cersei's story of Robert uttering Lyanna's name on their wedding night is hardly proof that Robert and Lyanna were physically intimate. It could quite reasonably mean that Robert didn't much like Cersei.

Neither does prolonged grief equate to physical intimacy. It's a common thing for a person to mourn "the one who got away", in life as well as in literature. In fact, Robert's long regret quite potently points to him and Lyanna having not engaged in physical intimacy; otherwise, he likely would have forgotten her by evenfall - because that was Robert's M.O.

That's how I see it and there is not one thing you have argued, all these long months, that have been sufficiently compelling to change my interpretation.

 

Sigh,we may have different interpretations of what Lyanna meant when she said what she said and how.Ultimately,it doesn't matter.I'm not arguing that she believed Robert would cheat on her.She 100% believed that,that is a fact.The issue is in the midst of that we have two arguements from the siblings.Ned who believed that love for her would keep him true. Lyanna believed love wouldn't keep him true because cheating is in his nature( somehow she knows love wouldn't do that because she at that time was an expert on the matter).

The object here is the belief or disbelief in Robert with regard to love. GRRM has given us the answer to this via Cersie as i pointed out. Robert per Cersie wanted to be loved so he always went where he got it,to his friends and to his whores. He was loyal to where he felt love.

Now to the brothal scene and in the perspective of not only Lyanna's conversation but Ned's knowledge.This brothel scene is after Robert tells Ned this:

"Drink and stay quiet, the king is talking. I swear to you, I was never so alive as when I was winning this throne, or so dead as now that I've won it. And Cersei . . . I have Jon Arryn to thank for her. I had no wish to marry after Lyanna was taken from me, but Jon said the realm needed an heir. Cersei Lannister would be a good match, he told me, she would bind Lord Tywin to me should Viserys Targaryen ever try to win back his father's throne." The king shook his head. "I loved that old man, I swear it, but now I think he was a bigger fool than Moon Boy. Oh, Cersei is lovely to look at, truly, but cold . . . the way she guards her cunt, you'd think she had all the gold of Casterly Rock between her legs"

You think after Ned has heard things like this,that he believes love is in play.Cersie wasn't going to change Robert because she didn't love Robert.Moon boy could see that.And that is the point.There's no need to bring up Lya's conversation about Robert's infidelity despite love.When the man's wife didn't love him and he didn't love her and Ned knew that.

So know Lyanna wasn't correct because Cersie didn't love Robert and Robert didn't love her.

Disagree Ned thinks alot about Lyanna and Robert in his mind.Do we need to count them all?

We are back to that unlikely rumour of Robert fucking an entire brothal while injured and hiding from people trying to kill him again.It hasn't occured to you that his would be brother-in-law who showed up and rescued him from said brothel not saying anything about Robert effing an entire brothal or effing anyone at all while he was bethothed to his sister is a clue that its BS?

Ned would have an awfully different relationship wil Robert had that happened believe me.

Dude,Robert thought he was shagging Lyanna when he was with Cersie.Come on that there is as old as time.Its in cave drawings as " who the f**k is Kim or I am not Sandra !!!

What do you think prolonged grief is? Its grief over the loss of a loved one.It is not a common thing for someone to mourn "the one that got away in life or in literature".So you know "the one that got away" is based on  about loosing someone for which you had a love connection or a relationship and you mucked it up somehow.Its a romantic connection that fell through.

Lastly,your kind of wrong,well not kind of wrong..plain wrong in your last statement.

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"No sooner had those formalities of greeting been completed than the king had said to his host, "Take me down to your crypt, Eddard. I would pay my respects."

Ned loved him for that, for remembering her still after all these years(Agot,Ned1).

 

Evening came and went....He forgot her not.

Look,my intent has never been about changing anyone's mind least of all yours.Its a fools errand.I haven't got the patience.This is about documenting the arguements for posterity.We will all know who was right and who was wrong soon enough and 1 billion voices believeing one thing now isn't going to change GRRM's final word.

On 9/18/2016 at 3:57 PM, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Please, think of the logistics of such a situation. This is not a peasant's son being born - this is the birth of Aegon VI Targaryen, son of Crown Prince Rhaegar Targaryen and Princess Elia Martell, which would obviously be news in Westeros. 

The relevant quote:

Ned stating that he dishonored Cat by fathering Jon after the marriage. This is the farce Ned was carrying on throughout his marriage, and in  Cat's POVs she never doubts it.

She clearly believes that it was in the year they spent apart that Ned fathered Jon, not before their marriage.

Oh, and by the way, for the claim that Aegon's birth could be kept secret:

 

I agree with JNR and will add....

You think these people are marking calenders or something?You think someone is going through Westeros in Winter announcing this to every High Lord? No way.

No one in the room except the Maester is saying when birth took place or even cares. Plus,its a matter of perception this book that Yandel penned is not required reading for Westrosi households.This is in the hands of Tommen at the moment. Nobody else knows or gives a crap when Aegon was born, and anyone who does  know is likely dead.If they aren't dead they still don't know because of all the things someone has to remember that isn't going to be it.It going to be something vague as "he looks to be about the right age" Aegon was born about 15-16ish years ago.Kids been on the run living rough so it could work. People remember if there's an event and they happened to have been there when that event happend at the time of birth.Such things makes it easy to track.Or they convince themselves of something.But i'm 100% sure the woman who was holding the pan of water for water for the Maester did not mark this down in her Blackberry as a day she needed to remember.

Relevent quote in context:

Quote

"You were never the boy you were," Robert grumbled. "More's the pity. And yet there was that one time . . . what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was . . . Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?"

Robert is speaking about Ned having a tryst with a girl.That is the subject Ned having an affair with a girl after he married Cat. Robert,i repeat Robert assumes the common girl who Ned banged is his bastard's mother.Ned didn't tell him that,they are not talking about when Ned fathered Jon.They are talking about some girl who Ned slept with after he married Cat named Wylla.

Quote

 

"Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak of her."

"Wylla. Yes." The king grinned. "She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like . . . "

Ned's mouth tightened in anger. "Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert, for the love you say you bear me. I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men."

 

Ned has said nothing about fathering Jon after he married Cat,he is coping to dishonoring Cat with some chick who Robert thinks is Jon's mother.There is a  difference.

Ned has only ever said one thing with regard to Jon to Cat and that is "He's my blood and that is all you need to know" 

That's all the info she had.Ned let everyone think whatever they wanted to think about Jon and he went along with it. If Maester Luuwin said Jon's birthday Robb and Cat wanted to believe he fathered Jon after he married her to solidify Robb as first son fine by him.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

16 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

This is a matter of perception and opnion based on faulty logic.Ned never gave anyone any info about Jon beyond Jon being his blood/son.Everything regarding the identity of his mother,to how old he might be,when and where he was born is other peoples assumption in the story.

Except Ned gave some fairly concrete information to Robert while they were on the road to Kings Landing. I'm talking about the conversation where Robert asked him about his bastard and Ned shut that conversation down by saying that he dishonored himself and dishonored Catelyn who was already pregnant. So he's claiming that Jon's conception happened after Ned's and Cat's wedding.

That would give someone a pretty solid idea of Jon's age.

 

[wolfmaid7]

4 hours ago, Voice said:

Good points, but would only support a rapey version of Robert+Lyanna imo. And Lyanna's tone does not sound like that of a victim.

I disagree. How would Cat and Ned growing to love each other when she preferred Brandon sound rapey? How does Jon overlooking the fact that Ygritte wasn't refined, beautiful as he normally saw  wildling sound rapey? 

Dany's wedding night how does this sound rapey?

Dany went from calling Drogo a brutish giant who she feared all beacuse of his tenderness on their wedding night.

Spoiler

 

"Drogo touched her hair lightly, sliding the silver-blond strands between his fingers and murmuring softly in Dothraki. Dany did not understand the words, yet there was warmth in the tone, a tenderness she had never expected from this man.

He put his finger under her chin and lifted her head, so she was looking up into his eyes. Drogo towered over her as he towered over everyone. Taking her lightly under the arms, he lifted her and seated her on a rounded rock beside the stream. Then he sat on the ground facing her, legs crossed beneath him, their faces finally at a height. "No," he said."

 

which culminated with this:

Spoiler

 

"His fingers were deft and strangely tender. He removed her silks one by one, carefully, while Dany sat unmoving, silent, looking at his eyes. When he bared her small breasts, she could not help herself. She averted her eyes and covered herself with her hands. "No," Drogo said. He pulled her hands away from her breasts, gently but firmly, then lifted her face again to make her look at him. "No," he repeated.

"No," she echoed back at him.

He stood her up then and pulled her close to remove the last of her silks. The night air was chilly on her bare skin. She shivered, and gooseflesh covered her arms and legs. She was afraid of what would come next, but for a while nothing happened. Khal Drogo sat with his legs crossed, looking at her, drinking in her body with his eyes.

After a while he began to touch her. Lightly at first, then harder. She could sense the fierce strength in his hands, but he never hurt her. He held her hand in his own and brushed her fingers, one by one. He ran a hand gently down her leg. He stroked her face, tracing the curve of her ears, running a finger gently around her mouth. He put both hands in her hair and combed it with his fingers. He turned her around, massaged her shoulders, slid a knuckle down the path of her spine.

It seemed as if hours passed before his hands finally went to her breasts. He stroked the soft skin underneath until it tingled. He circled her ni**les with his thumbs, pinched them between thumb and forefinger, then began to pull at her, very lightly at first, then more insistently, until her ni**les stiffened and began to ache.

He stopped then, and drew her down onto his lap. Dany was flushed and breathless, her heart fluttering in her chest. He cupped her face in his huge hands and looked into his eyes. "No?" he said, and she knew it was a question.

She took his hand and moved it down to the wetness between her thighs. "Yes," she whispered as she put his finger inside her."

 

Where does the rapey come in? I see a young girl whose body began to experiance something wonderful under the tender touch of a gentle giant.....

 

[wolfmaid7]

13 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Except Ned gave some fairly concrete information to Robert while they were on the road to Kings Landing. I'm talking about the conversation where Robert asked him about his bastard and Ned shut that conversation down by saying that he dishonored himself and dishonored Catelyn who was already pregnant. So he's claiming that Jon's conception happened after Ned's and Cat's wedding.

That would give someone a pretty solid idea of Jon's age.

 

I'm reposting this..The conversation he had with Robert on the Kingsroad.

Relevent quote in context:

Quote

"You were never the boy you were," Robert grumbled. "More's the pity. And yet there was that one time . . . what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was . . . Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?"

Robert is speaking about Ned having a tryst with a girl.That is the subject Ned having an affair with a girl after he married Cat. Robert,i repeat Robert assumes the common girl who Ned banged is his bastard's mother.Ned didn't tell him that,they are not talking about when Ned fathered Jon.They are talking about some girl who Ned slept with after he married Cat named Wylla.

Quote

 

Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak of her."

"Wylla. Yes." The king grinned. "She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like . . . "

Ned's mouth tightened in anger. "Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert, for the love you say you bear me. I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men."

 

Ned has said nothing about fathering Jon after he married Cat,he is coping to dishonoring Cat with some chick who Robert thinks is Jon's mother.There is a  difference.

Ned has only ever said one thing with regard to Jon to Cat and that is "He's my blood and that is all you need to know" 

That's all the info she had.Ned let everyone think whatever they wanted to think about Jon and he went along with it. If Maester Luuwin said Jon's birthday Robb and Cat wanted to believe he fathered Jon after he married her to solidify Robb as first son fine by him.

 

So no Ned isn't claiming,has never claimed that Jon's conception happened after he married Cat.

[SFDanny]

Ned responds to Robert's question "You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?" with the name of Wylla. A woman in Starfall who claims she is Jon's mother. It couldn't be anymore clear than that Ned told him before Jon's mother was Wylla. That may or may not be a lie. Most of us think it is. But Ned is absolutely telling his friend and king that he fathered a bastard with a woman named Wylla.

Not only that, but Ned has to tell Catelyn when he fathered Jon because she states it was after they were married while he was warring in the south. The same thing he tells Robert. Robert didn't just assume that was when Jon was conceived. Ned told him the same thing he tells Cat - lie or not.

[SFDanny]

@Sly Wren and @Voice I've listened to the story "Bitterblooms" which both of you linked to, and I have a question. Did I miss where the blue flowers in the story are called "blue roses"? Their description certainly doesn't sound like a rose of any color. I''m very prepared to admit that Martin likes to use flowers in his work, but I'm not prepared to concede that all blue flowers have the same symbolic meaning. Correct me if I'm wrong, and I missed it.

[Sly Wren]

5 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Well, yes, but for our discussion the point is two things: Done through "honoring" Jaime, and no blue roses.

Agreed--sorry, I can be slow on the uptake at times.

The above is why I've posited Aerys as a Bael-like plotter before--though I now think Tywin's a better fit for the plotter.

I'd also add that Jaime's "honor" is immediately exposed, even to Jaime, as an insult: he's sent back to King's Landing instead of being able to participate in the tourney. Don't know how well everyone else knew about what Aerys had done to Tywin via Jaime, but the Lannisters knew.

So, if Rhaegar intentionally insulted the Starks via a false honoring of Lyanna? That could work.

5 hours ago, SFDanny said:

I think Martin has gone to great lengths to keep both the "rape scenario" and "love scenario" as possible and he will likely do so until we get the actual details of what happened.

For those in the novels? Yes--I agree. But for readers--he's been pushing back on the love story from the start with Lyanna's take on men and the Bael Tale and beyond. For the rape and kidnap story, he's pushed back on that with Rhaegar's psychology and with Ned's reactions to Rhaegar. Seems like he's pushing both ideas away from readers somewhat.

Quote

Up to this point in the Harrenhal story, no one is claiming Rhaegar raped Lyanna.

Not quite sure on what you mean here. Do you mean at Harrenhal? Then yes. But if you mean "by the time Bran hears the Harrenhal story in the novels," we've been told people in world think he raped her. Or do you mean something else that I'm missing?

Quote

The crowning with blue roses doesn't have to symbolize force of any kind. And, again, like Jaime, it is both an honor on the surface, and a political act underneath. A political act readily understood by Brandon and Robert, who both are extremely angry.

Agreed--though it's immediately understood as insulting by the Starks--including Ned (according to the World Book, at least). And, as above, Jaime quickly discovers it's treachery against him, too. Using him as a pawn--not an honor at all. Given how close Lyanna and her brothers seem to be, seems like she'd figure out right quick Rhaegar was insulting her and her family.

Quote

On who did the dishonoring of Ashara, I think the events portrayed in Meera's telling of the events point to one of the Stark brothers. My money is on Brandon, although I admit we need more information on this.

Could see it's being Brandon. And I agree--we need more info.

5 hours ago, SFDanny said:

i'd say they represent a love that can't happen, yet does. The master harpist Rhaegar surely knows the song of Bael the Bard and his love of a Stark daughter.

Maybe--but if the Starks have never heard the Bael Tale--it seems like a very northern tale. Folklore, not prophecy books. Not sure Rhaegar would have known it.

Quote

He knows the northern cultural significance of the blue roses he is giving to Lyanna when he crowns her.

Or, it's just terrible synchronicity. The roses are intended as an insult. And it becomes all the more horrible that they just happen to be her favorite--a perfect storm of awfulness.

Quote

He may even have played the song for her when she "sniffles." 

To this--I gave this quote to @nanother above, but will annoy you by repeating it here:

Quote

"The wench is dead," the woman hissed. "Only worms may kiss her now." And then to Tom Sevenstrings she said, "I'll have my song or I'll have you gone."

So the singer played for her, so soft and sad that Arya only heard snatches of the words, though the tune was half-familiar. Sansa would know it, I bet. Her sister had known all the songs, and she could even play a little, and sing so sweetly. All I could ever do was shout the words. Storm Arya IV

In the same book where Martin tells us Lyanna sniffled at Rhaegar's song, we have Arya feeling emotional over a song that isn't being sung to her. She isn't even hearing all the words--the emotion and beauty make her miss her family.

Given how much Martin's told us Arya is like Lyanna, seems like there's a good chance Lyanna could be like Arya with music, too. And that her emotion wasn't about Rhaegar at all, any more than Arya's emotion is about whatever Tom is singing. Or about Tom himself.

5 hours ago, SFDanny said:

I think there are layers of meaning going on in this one act.

Agreed--including who the Knight of the Laughing Tree defeats and who Ashara dances with.

Quote

 How can Rhaegar not be attracted to such an unusual woman? That he uses her to convey a political message doesn't mean he feels nothing towards Lyanna, it only means he has little choice but to take a stand both his father and the STAB alliance will understand after the Starks reject his overture.

But Rhaegar doesn't need to know which Stark did the Knight (regardless of which it was) to know they were messing with his tourney and stirring up his father. Rhaegar just has to be less stupid than Aerys re: the identity of a weirwood sigiled knight. 

As for "how can Rhaegar not be attracted"--so far, we've not been given anything on his take on women. Just that he was fond of Elia. And that he wanted another child. So, not sure how we'd know who Rhaegar would be attracted to. We know a bit about how Lyanna assesses men. But not Rhaegar.

Quote

That he duplicates the method his father used with Jaime, doesn't mean he is motivated by spite like his father is towards Tywin. Even there, Aerys has no real anger towards Jaime until he thinks he has come back to the tourney against his orders as a mystery knight. So too, Rhaegar has no reason to be spiteful towards Lyanna. At least that we know about.

True--but Rhaegar is smacking an upstart. And Aerys does meanly send Jaime away from the tourney instead of letting him stay to compete. Kinda spiteful.

I agree, Rhaegar has no reason to be angry at Lyanna herself--even if she's the knight, getting mad at the teenage girl seems less reasonable than going after her older brothers who likely helped her.

But if the Bael Tale tells us anything, if Cersei's use of the Blue Bard tells us anything, he's still willing to use Lyanna as part of his delivery mechanism for his message.

5 hours ago, SFDanny said:

I don't deny the dark end of the story, and the warning against kinslaying, but how can it be that the message of kinship between the Free Folk and the Starks gets lost? No, Ygritte tells her tale to provoke her lover over the lack of real differences between Free Folk and kneelers. And while she tweaks the long dead bard over his many loves, I think if there is any truth in the tale there is also love. Otherwise why tell it to Jon?

I agree that the tale is showing the connection between Starks and the Free Folk.

But a connection can be forged without any love at the start. And, love or no love, the lesson against kinslaying holds: one way or another, we are all kin. Stupid fights and petty battles only breeds grief. 

The tale as told by Ygritte, who claims to be Bael's descendant, focuses on the start of the connection as being all about a petty fight and proving a point and using a girl as a pawn. The result? Disaster. Because they are all connected--that may be where the love is: if we don't recognize our connection, Jon Boy, we'll destroy ourselves.

5 hours ago, SFDanny said:

I don't think Cersei thinks at all about the Blue Bard and what he goes through. Which is what I mean about her "careless cruelty."

Ah! No, sorry--I meant Cersei's attitude towards Marg. The Blue Bard is just a means to an end for her--he's barely a person. Only gets a name later in the story. He seems to just be a big, blue, singing, scented symbol for the reader.

Quote

I think it a stretch to connect Lyanna's and Bael's blue roses to him.

He's a big, blue-dyed, blue-clothed, blue-rose-scented bard. Cersei could have used any man against Marg. Martin has her use this guy--really think he's a symbol for the reader.

Quote

Does she want to get at Margaery? Undoubtedly, but I don't think Cersei's paranoia and hatred for her Tyrell allies is part of the use of the symbolism of the blue winter roses.

But it is part of the symbolism of using blue roses against an enemy. And thus tells us something about the motivation of the "giving" of the roses.

1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

@Sly Wren and @Voice I've listened to the story "Bitterblooms" which both of you linked to, and I have a question. Did I miss where the blue flowers in the story are called "blue roses"? Their description certainly doesn't sound like a rose of any color. I''m very prepared to admit that Martin likes to use flowers in his work, but I'm not prepared to concede that all blue flowers have the same symbolic meaning. Correct me if I'm wrong, and I missed it.

No--they are just rare blue flowers.

Tied to the sweet lies and messed up memory and reality of the story's main character.

But that idea of sweet lies, disappointments in the difficulty of discerning reality--that seems tied to some of the imagery surrounding the blue roses in ASOIAF.

Maybe.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Ned has said nothing about fathering Jon after he married Cat,he is coping to dishonoring Cat with some chick who Robert thinks is Jon's mother.There is a  difference.

Ned has only ever said one thing with regard to Jon to Cat and that is "He's my blood and that is all you need to know" 

That's all the info she had.Ned let everyone think whatever they wanted to think about Jon and he went along with it. If Maester Luuwin said Jon's birthday Robb and Cat wanted to believe he fathered Jon after he married her to solidify Robb as first son fine by him.

Wolfmaid, you are wilfully ignoring the evidence to make the story fit your interpretation. Ned is talking about Wylla in that passage, the same woman whom he claims is Jon's mother -  Robert asks about his bastard's mother, and Ned does not contradict him, he says her name was Wylla. The passage is clearly about Jon's mother, and the fact that he fathered her after his marriage to Cat.

I already provided the quotes showing that Cat has the same impression, and never doubts it in her POVs.

Your interpretation is suggesting that  Ned banged a girl during the war for pleasure, which is completely out of character for him. Look at what Robert says - "A rare wench who could make Lord Eddard forget his honour" and "You were never the boy you were." Even Robert is surprised at how Ned gave up his precious honor for a night, when he fathered Jon.

[Kingmonkey]

14 hours ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

I disagree with this, KM - and I find it confusing, because I'm not clear who was suggesting that Rhaegar left Elia. Possibly I missed a comment upthread - but isn't it commonly accepted that Rhaegar remains married to Elia?  We've certainly never heard anything about that marriage ending in the text...

You may have missed the context from the previous thread here. The claim was put forwards that if Lyanna's objection to Robert is an issue for the Robert+Lyanna parenthood theory, it must also necessarily be a problem for the Rhaegar + Lyanna theory, because Rhaegar was married to Elia.

Of course we don't know what actually happened between Rhaegar and Lyanna. One possibility is that Rhaegar raped Lyanna. In that case this opinion of Lyanna's is wholly moot, so really this whole debate is rather pointless. However for reasons with no bearing to the topic of the thread, it was suggested that this should be discussed in relation to the idea that Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love. So be it.

As we don't know what actually happened between Rhaegar and Lyanna, we can speculate that the two fell in love, and that Rhaegar did not intend to return to Elia. Whether there was an actual divorce, or a intent to divorce, or simply walking out of the marriage is somewhat immaterial. The point here is that if Rhaegar did not intend to return to Elia, he was not bed-hopping. 

This notion does not come out of the blue. Kevin Lannister and Barristan Selmy both have the opinion that Rhaegar preferred Lyanna to Elia. Of course that by no means proves it was the case. It does demonstrate that there is at least one circumstance, indeed one believed by at least some people fairly close to the action, in which Lyanna's opinions voiced with respect to Robert would not be a problem for her becoming involved with Rhaegar.

Thus the notion that it must be a problem for RLJ if it's a problem for Robert is disproven. 

I hope that clarifies matters. 

14 hours ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

Regardless... Lyanna's statement can be applied to Rhaegar without having to assume that Rhaegar and Robert display the same nature.  The only assumption one needs make is that Rhaegar's own nature - already well-displayed - does not comport with the behavior of a man who would run off with, and bed, another man's betrothed.  

I don't believe there is anything that remotely implies it is part of Rhaegar's nature to leave his wife. In other words, that leaving his wife is something that Rhaegar would be prone to do without some external stimulus.  This seems to be in accord with what you are saying above.

Lyanna's complaint about the impossibility of love changing a man's nature can be generally applied, but it is not a universal complaint. Had, for example, Robert's nature been to be utterly devoted to her, Lyanna would hardly be complaining that wouldn't change. So what is it about Rhaegar's nature that would be objectionable to Lyanna?

Lyanna never suggests that it is a problem for a man to have had a prior relationship -- it's what he will do afterwards that she's worried about. If Rhaegar's nature is not to leave his wife, then she has no reason to believe that Rhaegar would cheat on her, the way she believes Robert would.

14 hours ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

"Dutiful" doesn't sound like someone who'd leave his wife at all. For jollies or any other reason. 

I rather like @WSmith84's succinct "Love is... the death of duty" reply. Perhaps a rather pointed quotation, given who said it and to whom it was said.

I'd like to add a paraphrase to that though: Duty may be the death of marriage. Elia could not bare more children, and Rhaegar may have felt his duty to the realm to have a third child outweighed his duty to Elia. Rhaegar's motivations remain one of the great unknowns of this series.

[Kingmonkey]

12 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

I agree this may be the end result. But Martin (via Ygritte) makes no bones about Bael's intent in giving that blue rose: spite, attack, teaching an enemy a lesson, putting him in his place.

Cersei uses the Blue Bard the same way.

So, regardless of how things turn out after the spiteful act, Martin's telling us what the "giver" of the roses intends: putting down an enemy or rival. 

I don't think the interpretation is nearly as clear-cut as this. In the Bael story, the blue rose is first given as a reward, so certainly blue roses aren't always given to put down an enemy or rival. Bael doesn't so much give that blue rose as he does reject it, taking instead the Stark maiden he interprets as being the actual reward he had been promised; the most beautiful flower that grew in Winterfell.

In the case of Bael, the Blue Bard, and Lyanna,  the blue rose could also be seen as representing an unattainable virginity. Bael wants to take the daughter of his old enemy, the blue bard is aimed at Margaery with the aim of deflowering the supposedly "pure" virgin queen, Rhaegar gives the crown of blue roses to a woman promised to another man. That in two of those situations there was an intent to get one up on a rival does not necessitate it being so in the third, because there are other things that may be more relevant to the symbol.

[Noel E Mahc]

11 hours ago, Voice said:

She was not like Sansa, who fell in love with princes. She was like Arya, who beat them up. Just sayin.

 

^^^^This!

[Voice]

3 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

I'd like to add a paraphrase to that though: Duty may be the death of marriage. Elia could not bare more children, and Rhaegar may have felt his duty to the realm to have a third child outweighed his duty to Elia. Rhaegar's motivations remain one of the great unknowns of this series.

Whoa there...

So it was Rhaegar's duty to the realm to abandon his wife, incite civil war, and sequester his cousin's betrothed? A girl of four and ten.

Rhaegar was bedding or preparing to bed this 14 year old, whom we know did not approve of Robert impregnating some girl in the Vale, because he may have felt it was his duty to the realm?

After already giving that realm an heir...

After already naming that heir "Aegon"...

After already proclaiming that heir Aegon to be the prince that was promised, and bearer of the song of ice and fire...

 

Was it duty also that made him do these things to this girl who had recently lost her father and brother to the Champion of House Targaryen?

 

Did Rhaegar think it would help if she was pregnant?

 

Unite the realm?

 

Give Aegon some competition?

 

Was it duty that made Rhaegar leave both Elia's bed and Lyanna's bed, once he was done with their uteri?

 

That does not sound like a dutiful man to me. I think we can rule out duty as a motive if Rhaegar ever bedded Lyanna.

 

5 hours ago, SFDanny said:

@Sly Wren and @Voice I've listened to the story "Bitterblooms" which both of you linked to, and I have a question. Did I miss where the blue flowers in the story are called "blue roses"? Their description certainly doesn't sound like a rose of any color. I''m very prepared to admit that Martin likes to use flowers in his work, but I'm not prepared to concede that all blue flowers have the same symbolic meaning. Correct me if I'm wrong, and I missed it.

Bitterblooms, that happen to be blue, and growing during the eighth year of  "deepwinter." Shawn finds them while away from "Carinhall."

Might be coincidence that Martin reuses blue flowers in ASOIAF, but I think not.

And bear in mind, while Lyanna is associated briefly with "winter roses" that is not always the verbiage associated with her. She was fond of "flowers," and there remains that "blue flower" (not "rose") growing from a chink in a wall of ice in Dany's HotU vision.

And we can't forget that time a storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

 

Quote

It was blue, all blue; hazy, shifting blue. A pale blue, dancing, dancing, like the ghost light that had flickered on the sky. A soft blue, like the little flower, the impossible blossom by the riverbank. A cold blue, like the eyes of the Ice Wagon’s black driver, like Lane’s lips when last she kissed them. Blue, blue, and it moved and would not be still. Everything was blurred, unreal. There was only blue. For a long time, only blue.

 

I think given GRRM's portrayal of of blue flowers that bloom in winter (impossible, blurred, unreal), combined with the horticultural view that blue roses are false, fake, and only possible through unnatural means, that the idea of blue flowers being a motif for lies is worthy of consideration. If applied to ASOIAF, much of the quandary surrounding them becomes a bit less ambiguous (a welcome thing in an area so wide open to interpretation imo).

And then there are the other two stories from GRRM I linked... The Glass Flower and A Song for Lya. I won't say too much more, because if people reading this thread haven't read them yet, I don't want to spoil them. They are both great stories.

Anyone interested is welcome to join the conversations on GRRM's earlier stories at

http://thelasthearth.com/board/158/feast-readers

 

 

21 minutes ago, Jamie Roberts said:

 

^^^^This!

[Sly Wren]

14 hours ago, Voice said:

And I didn't even mention the fact that in order to accept a non-rape Rhaegar+Lyanna scenario, we also have to accept that unlike Sansa after Joffrey's beheading of her father, that Lyanna would have been cool with a prince whose family had just executed her father and brother....

Or just shell-shocked into trying to survive by staying put--like Sansa. And trying to deceive herself into believing that the now ugly Joff will not be so bad. Arya, no matter what, yells out that people are liars. If she'd been in Sansa's position, she'd have ended up in a hole, locked up--no way they could have kept her quiet.

Quote

So in addition to being a swooning polygamist, she would have to be a swooning polygamist who was nurturing a romance with a married father of two, after her father and brother were brought to the king's justice by that very man's father.

...at the age of fourteen.

So imagine post-Ned, post-Red Wedding Sansa. She used to swoon for princes 24/7, but even she can't after that.

So again, I feel like most theories neglect what we know of Lyanna's character and convictions.

Yup--it takes a while for Sansa to see Joff as he is. And then, in Storm, to be disenchanted by singers--to see them for who they are and not just their songs.

But Arya's reaction to Tom's song to the Ghost of High Heart is not about Tom--just about missing her family. Sansa's on a learning curve. Arya's staked out ground and defends it.

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Hmm...

One does wonder.

Arthur was a Dayne... the brother of the man who brought him down?

Well, that is the whole context of Ygritte's story: we are all related. Doesn't matter how the north and south (depending on where you're standing) ended up related--they are. And thus fighting leads to kinslaying and curses. And the gods hate kinslayers, even when they kill unknowing--so, LEARN!

The land and people are one. 

And, in the case of Daynes and Starks, more "one" than most.

ETA: Which could explain some of the echoes of the "real" end in the Bael Tale to Ned's fight with Arthur and Ashara's tower suicide.

7 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

I don't think the interpretation is nearly as clear-cut as this. In the Bael story, the blue rose is first given as a reward, so certainly blue roses aren't always given to put down an enemy or rival.

But only given as a reward because Bael is in the process of tricking him. The rose is chosen as a reward by Bael. The Stark gives it freely after telling Bael: "name your reward." The Stark doesn't know he's being set up. That he's been invaded by an enemy. But the whole thing is still Bael setting up an enemy for a smackdown.

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Bael doesn't so much give that blue rose as he does reject it, taking instead the Stark maiden he interprets as being the actual reward he had been promised; the most beautiful flower that grew in Winterfell.

The whole thing was a set-up. Bael's theatre to teach the Stark a lesson. Chosing the rose was just step one--step two was the reveal: "It's me! Your sworn enemy! And I've got your daughter!!!!"

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In the case of Bael, the Blue Bard, and Lyanna,  the blue rose could also be seen as representing an unattainable virginity. Bael wants to take the daughter of his old enemy, the blue bard is aimed at Margaery with the aim of deflowering the supposedly "pure" virgin queen, Rhaegar gives the crown of blue roses to a woman promised to another man.

I agree that the flower in part represents virginity. But it's also virtue stolen to take down/insult/humiliate an enemy.

Bael's whole intent is to humiliate the Stark: "Bael vowed to teach the lord a lesson." The blue rose is the calling card. Impugning Marg's virtue via the Blue Bard not only helps Cersei remove Marg herself, but also to try to lessen the Tryell's influence at court.

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That in two of those situations there was an intent to get one up on a rival does not necessitate it being so in the third, because there are other things that may be more relevant to the symbol.

Yes--the roses symbolize further things. But in figuring out why Rhaegar gave that crown, looking at other blue-rose givers in the text seems. . . very relevant.

Especially since the Blue Bard seems to exist purely as a symbol for the reader. Any man would have sufficed for Cersei's goals. But Martin had her use the very, very blue, very blue rose scented bard.

Really think Martin's giving us a clue re: Rhaegar's intent. 

[wolfmaid7]

1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

Ned responds to Robert's question "You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?" with the name of Wylla. A woman in Starfall who claims she is Jon's mother. It couldn't be anymore clear than that Ned told him before Jon's mother was Wylla. That may or may not be a lie. Most of us think it is. But Ned is absolutely telling his friend and king that he fathered a bastard with a woman named Wylla.

Not only that, but Ned has to tell Catelyn when he fathered Jon because she states it was after they were married while he was warring in the south. The same thing he tells Robert. Robert didn't just assume that was when Jon was conceived. Ned told him the same thing he tells Cat - lie or not.

SFDanny to avoid a long debate on something very simple...You know why i disagree with you.

"You were never the boy you were," Robert grumbled. "More's the pity. And yet there was that one time . . . what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was . . . Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?"

Think about what that means for the context and Ned's reply....If Robert believes Ned had a one-time affair (Did he think Ned got Jon by Stork?) If Ned knows the conversation s about that one-time then he already knows the girl Robert is speaking of and Robert knows that. 

He was just fishing for more info on the girl.Not only is the "bastard comment" a herring it was uneccessary because both achknowledges Ned had a one time affair.

Secondly,Ned doesn't have to tell Cat anything of a sought she only had to hear the same rumor about Wylla.Plus,that statement by Cat and her subsequent questioning of Ned about Ashara Dayne proves she doesn't know who and when becauase Ashara Dayne isn't some girl.She's a noble woman,one of the most striking in the kingdom at that time.

Cat heard a couple of rumors and latched on to the one that she chose to believe.

[Kingmonkey]

4 hours ago, Voice said:

So it was Rhaegar's duty to the realm to abandon his wife, incite civil war, and sequester his cousin's betrothed? A girl of four and ten.

We don't know what Rhaegar's intent was, so obviously it is a possibility.

We know that Rhaegar took duty to the realm seriously. We know that he believed fulfilling a prophecy was extremely important. We know that he believed that a "song of ice and fire" was important to this prophecy. We know that the concept of unifying fire and ice by a union between Stark and Targaryen pre-existed. So yes, we certainly can't rule out the possibility that Rhaegar's primary (or at least initial) motive was a sense of duty to the realm.

4 hours ago, Voice said:

After already proclaiming that heir Aegon to be the prince that was promised, and bearer of the song of ice and fire...

After proclaiming that "there must be one more", as well. 

Also after previously believing that he himself was the PtWP and changing his mind over that.

Yes.

4 hours ago, Voice said:

Was it duty also that made him do these things to this girl who had recently lost her father and brother to the Champion of House Targaryen?

Why would her having lost her brother and father change that?

4 hours ago, Voice said:

Did Rhaegar think it would help if she was pregnant?

Dude, I just told you that was a possibility. Remember how there must be one more?

4 hours ago, Voice said:

Was it duty that made Rhaegar leave both Elia's bed and Lyanna's bed, once he was done with their uteri?

Wait, what? What makes you think he was "done with Lyanna's uterus"? What makes you think he "left her bed" with no intention to return to it? Are you seriously suggesting that a man is disloyal to a woman unless he literally never gets out of bed?

4 hours ago, Voice said:

That does not sound like a dutiful man to me. I think we can rule out duty as a motive if Rhaegar ever bedded Lyanna.

If he did it out of duty, which is a possibility, then that would make him a dutiful man. So no, unless we can rule out the possibility that Rhaegar's actions were motivated by a feeling that he had a duty to fulfil that prophecy via Lyanna, which we certainly cannot rule out, we equally cannot rule out duty as a motive.