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Sansa is truly one of the best characters and her development is fascinating


Emie

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53 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

You sure she wasn't just sea sick? Haha

I still think she reches because of fear for herself and not empathy but I can see how it could be read both ways... 

She does spend the rest of the voyage barfing. 

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36 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Her first response is "You killed him!" and then she retches, immediately after seeing him killed.

If it had been stress for all that went before, she would have felt the nausea before that.

I just note that you cannot grant her affective empathy when it's clearly, right before you, linked to a death scene of someone she counted as one of hers. That would make her being one with a very low affective empathy level, bordering that of psychopathy and narcissism, while she fails seriously on the other symptoms for it - she feels guilt, including at lying, she lacks the glibness, no sign of narcissistic injury (aka resentful of imagined slights).

For example in accounts of comabt operations you often find people puking without being nauseous before - often for very paradox reasons (I recall a narration by one I think US veteran who described how, after a day of seeing death in all unpleasantness and being under fire, without much issues he suddenly saw a pile of excrement in the open - and that just made it). That is why I mentioned stress and not sea sickness/vertigo.

 

 

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5 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Yes! Absolutely. I think Jeyne will be a huge turning point for Sansa. I don't have time for a huge post right now. But basically someone posted a quote above from early on, where Sansa thinks that she misses Jeyne, this is after initially being pleased she no longer has to listen to her tears.. And after that we don't get any worry or concern, but we do get her remembering their childhood from time to time. And Sansa does indeed love her best friend. That much is clear. What is significant in it's absence though is her asking LF about her fate, we know she heard Cersei say Jeyne would be taken to his chambers, and he would find a place for her. Yet she doesn't seem to have asked him. I think deep down she kinda suspects something unpleasant happened to Jeyne. And is afraid to ask. She isn't dim, and she knows Peytr is capable of disposing of people he no longer has use of (Dontos) I actually think it will be discovering what he did to Jeyne which triggers Sansa to have him beheaded (or indeed execute him herself perhaps) Jeyne is headed to Jon at the wall currently, and Jon eventually once he is healed or resurrected or whatever will I think head to Winterfell, even though his initial reason was to take Arya from Ramsey, discovering that it was Jeyne who was married to the bastard bolton won't necessarily mean he abandons that purpose. I think a general fall back from the wall will become essential at some point. Sansa we know wishes to return home, and the culmination of her Vale story line will likely see her headed there too. I think all roads lead to the same castle basically, and we will see all the Starks head there( I actually think Bran is facilitating this too through his ability to influence). Once she learns or indeed see's first hand what happened when she is reunited with Jeyne. Then shit will hit the fan for LF.  I think the Snow castle scene was foreshadowing and he will be important or at least his money and connections will be, in the actual re build of WF, but that she'll turn on him. I know there is a lot to be said for the argument he will try to force her into sexual activity, but I think Jeyne is a ticking bomb when it comes to these two. 

I too think Jeyne is a ticking bomb for Littlefinger, and that when Sansa finds out what happened to her, it will cause a serious breach, at the very least.  I see it happening somewhat differently, though.  I think she will arrive at the Wall just after Jon's stabbing, while he is comatose or "dead", and will immediately travel onward to Braavos with Massey and the banker for her own safety - where she will meet Arya.  But that's another story.  I think that her ugly scar-covered back will eventually show itself in Sansa's story.  Winterfell is as good a place as any,   I think Sansa has avoided asking about Jeyne partly because she fears something bad, and partly because she doesn't trust Littlefinger to give her an honest answer in any case.  She's not stupid, and definitely doesn't trust LF.

I think part of the problem with Sansa is that she is a traditionally feminine character, and those don't really exist in High Fantasy.  Girls in Fantasy tend to be physically active, tomboy types, often with an interest in martial activities (warfare, swordfighting, unarmed combat, etc.).  And when they start feminine, they usually don't end up that way.  Sansa is not in that mold, and it takes some getting used to.  I didn't actually begin to appreciate her intelligence and strength of character until about my second re-read.  She is now one of my favorites (alongside Arya, believe it or not).  I think she is quickly learning to read and therefore manipulate people (and not necessarily in a bad way).  I think Littlefinger will be the first indication that the lessons have stuck, when she realizes what he has done and takes him out.

I also think way too many readers are simply unwilling to move past her actions in the first book.  Yes, her actions show a certain level of selfishness, lack of courage, and thoughtlessness that can be off-putting.  Then again, asking an eleven-year-old to tell the King, in front of a hostile crowd, that his son, and her betrothed, is a worthless piece of shit is probably a bit much to ask, especially since she is hardly the bravest person in the room.  But she has moved well past that stage, and I have yet to see any action of hers that shows any real malice towards another person.  I like her, and think that she, and House Stark in general, will be a power to reckon with in subsequent books.

 

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2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

You sure she wasn't just sea sick? Haha

I still think she reches because of fear for herself and not empathy but I can see how it could be read both ways... 

When has Sansa spoken what's exactly on her mind when she's fearful? When has Sansa tried to argue against someone she fears? Her exclamation of "You killed him!" and saying "But he said he was my Florian," are perhaps the first time we have seen Sansa speak her mind without thinking of her words, without trying to appease or please the person she's talking to.

When Arya speaks her mind, we don't think she's fearful do we? We deduce she's upset and emotional.

She looked into the quarrel of a crossbow aimed at her by Joff in the court room once, really fearing he would loose it at her. I don't recall her retching then.

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Per sweetsunray,

Quote

When has Sansa spoken what's exactly on her mind when she's fearful? When has Sansa tried to argue against someone she fears? Her exclamation of "You killed him!" and saying "But he said he was my Florian," are perhaps the first time we have seen Sansa speak her mind without thinking of her words, without trying to appease or please the person she's talking to.

When? At Joffrey's nameday tournament, when her "Florian" Dontos came out to fight half naked and Joffrey demanded that he be executed. Sansa then backpedaled, but the Hound quickly backed her up, thus giving her the opportunity to continue to plead for Dontos's life.

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15 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I think part of the problem with Sansa is that she is a traditionally feminine character, and those don't really exist in High Fantasy.  Girls in Fantasy tend to be physically active, tomboy types, often with an interest in martial activities (warfare, swordfighting, unarmed combat, etc.).  And when they start feminine, they usually don't end up that way.  Sansa is not in that mold, and it takes some getting used to.  I didn't actually begin to appreciate her intelligence and strength of character until about my second re-read.  She is now one of my favorites (alongside Arya, believe it or not).  I think she is quickly learning to read and therefore manipulate people (and not necessarily in a bad way).  I think Littlefinger will be the first indication that the lessons have stuck, when she realizes what he has done and takes him out.

Sansa is not disliked because she's feminine. She's disliked because of her choices and decisions. If femininity was the reason that Sansa was disliked, then side characters like Margaery and Gilly would also be unpopular. As for intelligence and strength of character, her mistakes vastly overshadow that. Trusting the wrong people repeatedly (Joffrey, Cersei, Olenna, Dontos). Margaery manipulates her to reveal information about Joffrey. While interacting with Margaery, Sansa has thoughts like "Arya had been entirely unsatisfactory as sisters went". Even though Arya would be much more likely to defend or help her than Margaery. It almost seems that Sansa hates her actual family at times. How's that for strength of character? 

 

She already knows that Littlefinger is a monster. Her aunt Lysa, said that she poisoned Jon Arryn and wrote a letter to Catelyn blaming on Littlefinger's orders. If Sansa was intelligent, she would have realized that this meant that Littlefinger engendered the conflict between the Lannisters and the Starks and thus Littlefinger is also indirectly responsible for the downfall of her family. 

15 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I also think way too many readers are simply unwilling to move past her actions in the first book.  Yes, her actions show a certain level of selfishness, lack of courage, and thoughtlessness that can be off-putting. Then again, asking an eleven-year-old to tell the King, in front of a hostile crowd, that his son, and her betrothed, is a worthless piece of shit is probably a bit much to ask, especially since she is hardly the bravest person in the room.  But she has moved well past that stage, and I have yet to see any action of hers that shows any real malice towards another person.  I like her, and think that she, and House Stark in general, will be a power to reckon with in subsequent books.

The main reason many readers can't move past it is because she has done absolutely nothing to make up for her betrayals of Arya and Ned. Jaime saved Brienne. Theon saved Jeyne Poole. Sandor saved both Sansa and Arya.

She failed to tell the truth at the Trident when it mattered. What happened to that strength of character you mentioned earlier? 

Sansa leaves many readers with the impression that the only thing that matters to Sansa is Sansa. Her family was just "unsatisfactory" after all.

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36 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

She already knows that Littlefinger is a monster. Her aunt Lysa, said that she poisoned Jon Arryn and wrote a letter to Catelyn blaming on Littlefinger's orders. If Sansa was intelligent, she would have realized that this meant that Littlefinger engendered the conflict between the Lannisters and the Starks and thus Littlefinger is also indirectly responsible for the downfall of her family. 

Actually, she knows nothing of the sort.  Lysa mentions giving Jon "tears".  Unless you are paying close attention and know that Jon died of Tears of Lys, it's difficult to make the connection.  I doubt Sansa has even heard of Tears of Lys, much less that Jon died of it.  Without that knowledge,making the connection isn't nearly as easy as you suggest.  She doesn't trust Littlefinger, and never has, from the first day she met him.  ("He had a smile that didn't reach his eyes".  In other words, fake.)

46 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

The main reason many readers can't move past it is because she has done absolutely nothing to make up for her betrayals of Arya and Ned.

"Betrayal" is a little excessive here.  She had no reason to think that remaining silent would result in any serious consequence at the Trident.  And if Cersei hadn't been such a bitch, it wouldn't have.  Robert was willing to let things slide, although Sansa had no way of knowing that at the time.  And I don't believe for a second that if she had known the true situation between Ned and Cersei, she would have gone to Cersei.  And let's face, she has paid dearly for both mistakes ( and I do consider them mistakes, not malicious behavior)

47 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

Jaime saved Brienne. Theon saved Jeyne Poole. Sandor saved both Sansa and Arya.

And Sansa saved Dontos.  Without her intervention, he would have died at Joffrey's hands.  And she helped, and may have saved Lancel at the Blackwater.  And nobody would have blamed her if she had simply ignored him.  He was, after all, the enemy.  And I think she is doing all she can to help Sweetrobin actually become Lord Arryn.  Oh, and Theon had to be forced to help Jeyne.  And if Sandor saved Arya, it was only after he had endangered her by kidnapping her in the first place.  ( I like Sandor, but claiming him as Arya's savior is a bit much).

 

51 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

She failed to tell the truth at the Trident when it mattered. What happened to that strength of character you mentioned earlier? 

It hadn't arrived yet?  She's had a couple of years and three books to change, and has.  The current Sansa, I think, would probably tell the truth in that particular situation.  By the way, she had perfectly good reasons for lying about Lysa and Marillion.  One tried to kill her, and other to rape her, and far as she was concerned, they might have done so again.  She was relieved they were gone, and under the control of Littlefinger.  She had little choice in the matter, and no real reason to act differently in any case.

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1 hour ago, zandru said:

Per sweetsunray,

When? At Joffrey's nameday tournament, when her "Florian" Dontos came out to fight half naked and Joffrey demanded that he be executed. Sansa then backpedaled, but the Hound quickly backed her up, thus giving her the opportunity to continue to plead for Dontos's life.

She spoke out because of shock and emotion at the time. She backpedaled because of fear. She spoke up to Joff too when he had her watch the heads on spikes, and intended to shove him to his death. What it shows is that she speaks up when another emotion than fear is stronger: when she's angry, apalled, or shocked.

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7 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Actually, she knows nothing of the sort.  Lysa mentions giving Jon "tears".  Unless you are paying close attention and know that Jon died of Tears of Lys, it's difficult to make the connection.  I doubt Sansa has even heard of Tears of Lys, much less that Jon died of it.  Without that knowledge,making the connection isn't nearly as easy as you suggest.  She doesn't trust Littlefinger, and never has, from the first day she met him.  ("He had a smile that didn't reach his eyes".  In other words, fake.)

Alright Sansa has no idea what Tears are. But then, Lysa states, "And I wrote Catelyn and told her the Lannisters had killed my lord husband, just as you said". Thus, she states that the Littlefinger led the Starks to believe that the Lannisters killed her husband Jon Arryn. Surely, this statement is enough to show that Littlefinger fomented the tensions between the Stark and Lannister families. Thus, he is not a friend of the Starks.

If she can't figure these things out, how will she ever become some sort of power in the future as you claim? She's more fit to be a hostess than any kind of cunning political player.

7 minutes ago, Nevets said:

"Betrayal" is a little excessive here.  She had no reason to think that remaining silent would result in any serious consequence at the Trident.  And if Cersei hadn't been such a bitch, it wouldn't have.  Robert was willing to let things slide, although Sansa had no way of knowing that at the time.  And I don't believe for a second that if she had known the true situation between Ned and Cersei, she would have gone to Cersei.  And let's face, she has paid dearly for both mistakes ( and I do consider them mistakes, not malicious behavior)

She betrayed Arya and Ned. She knew that Joffrey tried to kill Arya. She knew that Joffrey was the one who initiated the incident. She told Ned the truth but when called on to back up her sister she lied and said she didn't know what happened. How is that not betraying Arya? Later, when Cersei demands that Lady is killed, she blames Arya for the entire incident. It's clear that she chose Joffrey over Arya in that instance. 

She also knew that Cersei would stop Ned from sending her to Winterfell. She knew that Cersei was Ned's enemy. Cersei's brother killed Jory and injured Ned. Cersei had also previously shown that she was cruel when she ordered the death of Sansa's innocent direwolf. Her father specifically told her to not tell anyone of their plans. How was this not a betrayal of Ned? 

7 minutes ago, Nevets said:

And Sansa saved Dontos.  Without her intervention, he would have died at Joffrey's hands.  And she helped, and may have saved Lancel at the Blackwater.  And nobody would have blamed her if she had simply ignored him.  He was, after all, the enemy.  And I think she is doing all she can to help Sweetrobin actually become Lord Arryn.  Oh, and Theon had to be forced to help Jeyne.  And if Sandor saved Arya, it was only after he had endangered her by kidnapping her in the first place.  ( I like Sandor, but claiming him as Arya's savior is a bit much).

So she managed to save Dontos with the intervention of the Hound. Dontos later manipulates her and sells her to Littlefinger. How do you reconcile this with your claim that she is intelligent? Saving Dontos isn't bad. Being manipulated by him is.

7 minutes ago, Nevets said:

 

It hadn't arrived yet?  She's had a couple of years and three books to change, and has.  The current Sansa, I think, would probably tell the truth in that particular situation.  By the way, she had perfectly good reasons for lying about Lysa and Marillion.  One tried to kill her, and other to rape her, and far as she was concerned, they might have done so again.  She was relieved they were gone, and under the control of Littlefinger.  She had little choice in the matter, and no real reason to act differently in any case.

My final judgement of her will rest on whether she saves Sweetrobin from Littlefinger. If Sweetrobin dies due to her actions or inaction, then I'll never regard Sansa as a heroine.

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20 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

She betrayed Arya and Ned. She knew that Joffrey tried to kill Arya. She knew that Joffrey was the one who initiated the incident. She told Ned the truth but when called on to back up her sister she lied and said she didn't know what happened. How is that not betraying Arya?

Then Ned also betrayed Arya. Ned knew the truth and he didn't speak up.

 

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Sansa doesn't ask what happened to Jeyne or to Arya or think too much about others who disappear from her life or when faced with terrible decisions and their consequences. It's a survival mechanism. Danaerys does the same thing. When faced with a terrible decision or consequence, she thinks "If I look back, I'm lost." Both Sansa and Dany are emulating their literary forebearer, Scarlett O'Hara who, when she must make hard decisions with morally ambiguous consequences (throughout the book and movie, not just at the end), thinks "I can't think about that now " of "I'll think about that tomorrow." Jeyne Poole looked back. Lollys in GoT and Scarlett's father looked back and couldn't make it back to living in the moment. Who knows if Jeyne could have pulled out of the downward spiral if she had been left in the tower with Sansa? Like Dany and Scarlett, Sansa had to walk a tightrope to survive, doing so by living in the moment. The difference between Sansa on the one hand and Dany and Scarlett is that the authors gave the latter two catch phrases to let the reader know that the character was pushing an event aside to focus on survival. Sansa does the same thing, but without a literary cue.   

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1 hour ago, Nevets said:

Actually, she knows nothing of the sort.  Lysa mentions giving Jon "tears".  Unless you are paying close attention and know that Jon died of Tears of Lys, it's difficult to make the connection.  I doubt Sansa has even heard of Tears of Lys, much less that Jon died of it.  Without that knowledge,making the connection isn't nearly as easy as you suggest.  She doesn't trust Littlefinger, and never has, from the first day she met him.  ("He had a smile that didn't reach his eyes".  In other words, fake.)

This is what Sansa knows (keep in mind she learns this shortly after she learns that she was an unknowing accomplice to Petyr's conspiracy to poison Joffrey's wine, and to blame it on Tyrion)...

Quote

"Tears, tears, tears," she sobbed hysterically. "No need for tears . . . but that's not what you said in King's Landing. You told me to put the tears in Jon's wine, and I did. For Robert, and for us! And I wrote Catelyn and told her the Lannisters had killed my lord husband, just as you said. That was so clever . . . you were always clever, 

Sansa VII, Storm 80

Sansa knows that 1) Petyr told Lysa to put tears in Jon Arryn's wine, 2) Lysa put tears in Jon's wine, 3) Petyr told Lysa to tell Catelyn that the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn, 4) Lysa told Catelyn that the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn; and 5) Petyr's plan was clever. 

Now, is Sansa daft or not? If not, isn't she willfully ignoring the fact that Petyr had her aunt poison her real father's wine and blame it on the Lannisters? 

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1 hour ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Then Ned also betrayed Arya. Ned knew the truth and he didn't speak up.

 

He called Sansa to testify on Arya's behalf. Then his star witness burned him by testifying she could not recall. His own self-serving hearsay testimony about what Sansa told him would have been completely laughable after Sansa herself said she couldn't remember.  

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46 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

Ned wasn't an eye witness. Sansa was.

But Ned didn't even say something like, "C'mon Sansa. You already told me the whole story. Just repeat everything you said to me before." Nope. He just stood there and didn't say a word even though he knew the whole story.

Besides, why can't Ned speak up for her? She's 11, she's nowhere near a legal adult. If a minor child screws up, the parents have to be the ones to take responsibility for it. Ned could have tried to say something at least, but he didn't even try. What's the worst that would happen if he did?

Put the blame where it properly lies: on the adults in the room and for Sansa's part, on Ned. It was the grownups who let the whole thing get out of hand.

 

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29 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

But Ned didn't even say something like, "C'mon Sansa. You already told me the whole story. Just repeat everything you said to me before." Nope. He just stood there and didn't say a word even though he knew the whole story.

Besides, why can't Ned speak up for her? She's 11, she's nowhere near a legal adult. If a minor child screws up, the parents have to be the ones to take responsibility for it. Ned could have tried to say something at least, but he didn't even try. What's the worst that would happen if he did?

Put the blame where it properly lies: on the adults in the room and for Sansa's part, on Ned. It was the grownups who let the whole thing get out of hand.

 

To be fair, things got a little outta hand thanks to the wild little she wolf...

Quote

 

His eldest daughter stepped forward hesitantly. She was dressed in blue velvets trimmed with white, a silver chain around her neck. Her thick auburn hair had been brushed until it shone. She blinked at her sister, then at the young prince. "I don't know," she said tearfully, looking as though she wanted to bolt. "I don't remember. Everything happened so fast, I didn't see . . . "

"You rotten!" Arya shrieked. She flew at her sister like an arrow, knocking Sansa down to the ground, pummeling her. "Liar, liar, liar, liar."

"Arya, stop it!" Ned shouted. Jory pulled her off her sister, kicking. Sansa was pale and shaking as Ned lifted her back to her feet. "Are you hurt?" he asked, but she was staring at Arya, and she did not seem to hear.

"The girl is as wild as that filthy animal of hers," Cersei Lannister said. "Robert, I want her punished."

And then it looked like everything was gonna be cool...

 

Eddard III, Game 16

Quote

 

"Seven hells," Robert swore. "Cersei, look at her. She's a child. What would you have me do, whip her through the streets? Damn it, children fight. It's over. No lasting harm was done."

The queen was furious. "Joff will carry those scars for the rest of his life."

Robert Baratheon looked at his eldest son. "So he will. Perhaps they will teach him a lesson. Ned, see that your daughter is disciplined. I will do the same with my son."

"Gladly, Your Grace," Ned said with vast relief.

 

Eddard III, Game 16

A good attorney knows when it's best to stay quiet. The Ned didn realize Cersei was about to strike. When she did, it was too late. 

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4 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

...

A good attorney knows when it's best to stay quiet. The Ned didn realize Cersei was about to strike. When she did, it was too late. 

King Robert gets a lot of criticism, but he was doing good here, ruling that a child's fight is not a crime. Ned was wise to let him carry on with that.

6 hours ago, Winter's Cold said:

...

She betrayed Arya and Ned. She knew that Joffrey tried to kill Arya. She knew that Joffrey was the one who initiated the incident. She told Ned the truth but when called on to back up her sister she lied and said she didn't know what happened. How is that not betraying Arya? Later, when Cersei demands that Lady is killed, she blames Arya for the entire incident. It's clear that she chose Joffrey over Arya in that instance. 

...

Arya told the truth, but the truth was not good, and repeating the truth doesn't help her. These are true facts about the incident on the Trident:

  • Arya gave Joffrey a head wound with a stick
  • Then she threw a rock at his head
  • Then her pet wolf attacked him
  • Then, when he was down and helpless, she snatched the sword and raised it to strike

How many times can King Robert listen to these truths without thinking that there will be future conflicts between Arya and Joffrey, that Joffrey will mistreat Sansa, and that the wolves will attack again?

Robert is a bad king and a bad parent, but he has to keep Joff (and his people!) safe from the wolves and safe from Arya. Somehow.

Quote

My final judgement of her will rest on whether she saves Sweetrobin from Littlefinger. If Sweetrobin dies due to her actions or inaction, then I'll never regard Sansa as a heroine.

Me too.

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5 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Sansa knows that 1) Petyr told Lysa to put tears in Jon Arryn's wine, 2) Lysa put tears in Jon's wine, 3) Petyr told Lysa to tell Catelyn that the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn, 4) Lysa told Catelyn that the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn; and 5) Petyr's plan was clever. 

Now, is Sansa daft or not? If not, isn't she willfully ignoring the fact that Petyr had her aunt poison her real father's wine and blame it on the Lannisters? 

No. Sansa heard Lysa rambling those things in quite distraught state. We were able to connect all those dots because, well, we have been privy to the number of POVs, especially Catelyn's. Sansa doesn't know what letter, what the consequences were, plainly, she has snippets of information that came from her crazy aunt. Now, she needs something to connect everything. I do believe she will eventually, but for now, it is logical for her not to guess everything right. It would be quite the logical leap for her to guess everything from Lysa's ramblings. 

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9 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

...

Arya told the truth, but the truth was not good, and repeating the truth doesn't help her. These are true facts about the incident on the Trident:

  • Arya gave Joffrey a head wound with a stick
  • Then she threw a rock at his head
  • Then her pet wolf attacked him
  • Then, when he was down and helpless, she snatched the sword and raised it to strike

How many times can King Robert listen to these truths without thinking that there will be future conflicts between Arya and Joffrey, that Joffrey will mistreat Sansa, and that the wolves will attack again?

Robert is a bad king and a bad parent, but he has to keep Joff (and his people!) safe from the wolves and safe from Arya. Somehow.

...

Sorry, but that's just silly, imo.

I mean, neither Robert nor anyone else in the room suffer from short term memory loss or something, for all we know. The truth of the facts has been told by both Arya and Joffrey --there's no contest about them-- and the hard evidence is there for everyone to see, right on Joffrey's body.

I can't understand how anyone interprets the purpose of this "trial" (from Robert's part, that is - Cersei's intentions are an entirely different matter) as anything else than to derive with the instigator of the events. Sansa's testimony is completely useless for anything else than that. (I know Ned gets a lot of flack for practically everything and that he's preceived by many as only a little better than a moron, but this is not a reading worth discussing as I see it.)

 

Regarding the main topic, I agree with many of the points @sweetsunray made. I just feel that, for many people, minds are already made and nothing but (perhaps) new content is going to change it. So I feel less and less inclined to engage seriously into a discussion about the character...

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