teej6 Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 11 minutes ago, Risto said: Have you seen "The Lion King"? Would you say that Simba betrayed Mufasa? No I haven't seen it in a while. And if memory serves, I think even Simba believes he did. But of course Simba didn't, at the time, know the consequences his actions would bring about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 2 minutes ago, Darkstream said: Exactly, Sansa had no idea that Cercei was an enemy. And she knew nothing about the feud between her father and the Lanisters. She had no idea that Joffrey was iligitimate. She had no idea that Ned was planning to oppose Joffrey's claim, or that he attempted to buy off the gold cloaks. All she knew was that Ned was sending her home. What exactly did she betray to Cercei? She knew some snippets that helped Cersei. The only real thing that she told her was the fact that Ned is sending them back to WF. I am not quite sure that was THAT important information and Martin in later books did try to put more emphasis on that, just because it wasn't clear HOW she impacted the events of that morning. Then again, he was fine when the said thing... SHOW SPOILERS... Spoiler was excluded from the Season 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkstream Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 2 minutes ago, teej6 said: "Her father's plans" is the words Cersei uses. Sansa knew that her father was sending her and her sister back to Winterfell on a ship. In telling Cersei this, Cersei was able to hold Sansa hostage and make sure no ships sailed from KL with Arya or Stark men. This also meant Cersei knew that Ned was about to act and act quickly. She already knew that he was going to act, remember when Ned betrayed the Starks by telling Cercei what his own plans were? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teej6 Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 20 minutes ago, Darkstream said: And the argument being put forth by many is, that she did deserve what she got because she betrayed her family, which I would argue is an ignorant interpretation of her actions. I would agree with the bolded. FYI, I'm not one of those that argue that "she deserve what she got." As to the bolded, if you don't have a counter-argument or anything to contribute, please be civil and don'y mock people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 8 minutes ago, teej6 said: "Her father's plans" is the words Cersei uses. Sansa knew that her father was sending her and her sister back to Winterfell on a ship. In telling Cersei this, Cersei was able to hold Sansa hostage and make sure no ships sailed from KL with Arya or Stark men. I know that's the words Cersei used. But she is a pathological liar and she couldn't exactly tell Tyrion that Ned came to her because he discovered the twincest. Quote This also meant Cersei knew that Ned was about to act and act quickly. The king had just died and Ned knew about the twincest. Even someone as dumb as Cersei knew Ned was going to act quickly. And if she still couldn't figure it out, LF was there to tell her that. What is more, the plan to send Sansa and Arya was from before Robert was mortally injured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teej6 Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 2 minutes ago, Darkstream said: She already knew that he was going to act, remember when Ned betrayed the Starks by telling Cercei what his own plans were? Not denying she didn't but she didn't know that Ned meant to send his daughter's away that very same day by ship back to Winterfell. The point is Cersei would have no leverage over Ned if she didn't hold Sansa hostage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkstream Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 Just now, teej6 said: FYI, I'm not one of those that argue that "she deserve what she got." As to the bolded, if you don't have a counter-argument or anything to contribute, please be civil and don'y mock people. No mocking intended, I don't believe that anyone asserting that Sansa betrayed her family understands what it means to betray someone. Either that, or they are being willfully obtuse in order to put down a character that they dislike. And to be clear, I'm not defending Sansa's actions or character, I just feel that classifying her actions as a betrayal is incorrect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkstream Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 3 minutes ago, teej6 said: Not denying she didn't but she didn't know that Ned meant to send his daughter's away that very same day by ship back to Winterfell. The point is Cersei would have no leverage over Ned if she didn't hold Sansa hostage. What more leverage did she need aside from having him imprisoned in the black cells for treason? Like I stated already, if she didn't have Sansa, Ned would not have confessed, and would have been executed either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clegane'sPup Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 Ya''ll ganging up on a poster sucks ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teej6 Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 11 minutes ago, David Selig said: I know that's the words Cersei used. But she is a pathological liar and she couldn't exactly tell Tyrion that Ned came to her because he discovered the twincest. The king had just died and Ned knew about the twincest. Even someone as dumb as Cersei knew Ned was going to act quickly. And if she still couldn't figure it out, LF was there to tell her that. What is more, the plan to send Sansa and Arya was from before Robert was mortally injured. If you recall in the same chapter, Tyrion reveals to Cersei that he knows Cersei is sleeping with Jamie. Cerise knew that Ned was going to act but again (I feel like a broken record), has Sansa not gone to Cersei, she and Arya may have escaped and leaving Cersei with no hostages and no way to pressure or convince honorable Ned to publicly acknowledge Joffrey's paternity and right to kingship. Ned might still be alive because, as contrary to what Darkstream argues, Cersei had no reason to parade Ned at the Sept of Baelor thereby taking away Joffrey's opportunity to kill Ned. Also, Cersei knew that keeping Ned alive was to their advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teej6 Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 2 minutes ago, Darkstream said: What more leverage did she need aside from having him imprisoned in the black cells for treason? Like I stated already, if she didn't have Sansa, Ned would not have confessed, and would have been executed either way. Leverage to convince Ned to recant and acknowledge Joffrey's right to kingship. We can't say for sure that Ned "would have been executed either way". Cersie didn't show any indication that she was about to execute him. She was taken aback by Joffrey's deacons just like anyone else. Ned was brought to the Sept (thereby giving Joffrey the chance to order Ned's death) was for him to confess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 2 minutes ago, teej6 said: If you recall in the same chapter, Tyrion reveals to Cersei that he knows Cersei if sleeping with Jamie. Cerise knew that Ned was going to act but again (I feel like a broken record), has Sansa not gone to Cersei, she and Arya may have escaped and leaving Cersei with no hostages and no way to pressure or convince honorable Ned to publicly acknowledge Joffrey's paternity and right to kingship. Ned might still be alive because, as contrary to what Darkstream argues, Cersei had no reason to parade Ned at the Sept of Baelor thereby taking away Joffrey's opportunity to kill Ned. Also, Cersei knew that keeping Ned alive was to their advantage. Well, the question is WHO killed Ned? And Varys with his riddle answers that question. It wasn't Joffrey, it wasn't Sansa, it wasn't even Ned's foolishness. It was someone else. Someone moved Joffrey to the conclusion Ned has to die. Soneone who wanted war between Lannisters and Starks. Someone who after all instigated it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teej6 Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 5 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said: Ya''ll ganging up on a poster sucks ass. I don't mind as long as it's civil and done in the spirit of healthy debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teej6 Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 1 minute ago, Risto said: Well, the question is WHO killed Ned? And Varys with his riddle answers that question. It wasn't Joffrey, it wasn't Sansa, it wasn't even Ned's foolishness. It was someone else. Someone moved Joffrey to the conclusion Ned has to die. Soneone who wanted war between Lannisters and Starks. Someone who after all instigated it That someone (whoever he/she is) would not have had that opportunity had Ned not been brought to the Sept to confess, which he wouldn't if not for Sansa's sake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkstream Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 1 minute ago, teej6 said: Leverage to convince Ned to recant and acknowledge Joffrey's right to kingship. We can't say for sure that Ned "would have been executed either way". Cersie didn't show any indication that she was about to execute him. She was taken aback by Joffrey's deacons just like anyone else. Ned was brought to the Sept (thereby giving Joffrey the chance to order Ned's death) was for him to confess. Right, but the penalty for treason is death, and the only reason Ned was offered the option of taking the Black over being executed was to convince him to confess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teej6 Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 12 minutes ago, Darkstream said: No mocking intended, I don't believe that anyone asserting that Sansa betrayed her family understands what it means to betray someone. Either that, or they are being willfully obtuse in order to put down a character that they dislike. And to be clear, I'm not defending Sansa's actions or character, I just feel that classifying her actions as a betrayal is incorrect. Again calling people names and alluding to their lack of understanding if they do not agree with you does not help. If you can't provide a counter-argment, please stop responding to my posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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