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Emie

Sansa is truly one of the best characters and her development is fascinating

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Yeah people - the age here doesn´t really matter. And the punishment will also be very differently. Sansa owes Arya an apology and maybe, at most, deserves a lighter beating, grounding and a ban on lemon cakes. Joffrey is not paying his debts that easily. And Ramsay...I don´t think I can explain what I want to happen to him, because then I will break the forum rules.

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11 minutes ago, Lurid Jester said:

I only drink scotch and cheap watered down beer.  So if you have a carona I'll take that. :)

See, I am just the opposite...

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6 hours ago, YOVMO said:

I think that this is key right here. I have mentioned my theory on Sansa in other posts, so I won't go too long about it again. In many ways I believe that Sansa's character is an echo or mirror image of the reader.

/snip to save space

In some ways Arya is us too. Part of what GRRM wanted to get away from with the really bad Tolkien knockoffs was how the nobility was portrayed pretty much like the songs that Sansa was so fond of, and hand wave class differences away like they didn't exist. Arya is guilty of the same thing and a lot of us, including me are cheering her on as she does. @OldGimletEye had done a good job of deconstructing the socio-political side of the Trident incident, which tends to get swept under the rug when we only talk about the individual personalities of the characters and ignore the social structure.

Arya and Jon are both underdogs as long as they stay in Winterfell, but part of both growth arcs are the most face to face contact with smallfolk of the Starklings. Jon goes to the Wall, not seeing much beyond his bastard status, but has a rude awakening when he discovers he gets seen by other NW as just another snotty lordling. In Arya's case, she hand waves class differences aside when she runs off to play with Mycah, not understanding that even in a less corrupt royal court, any punishment she got for mischief regardless of how innocent, would have been magnified tenfold for Mycah or someone else of his status. Later on in the Riverlands, she gets rebuked by Gendry under no uncertain terms for the same thing, once he finds out who she actually is. To her credit, she learns to blend in with smallfolk and actually listens to them, but speculating how she will reconcile that with her highborn status will take up too much space and I've already gone too far OT.

Sansa is the one who comes off as snobby and elitist, but actually has at least the basics in how Southron society and royal courts function, so she sees things more systemically. She also comes off as more cool and impersonal of the sisters because of it, but it's an important aspect of governing that gets overlooked in most fantasy novels and series. The scenes where she's rebuking Arya over how she's acting around the royal court come off as tone policing, but we find out later that pissing Cersei off comes with consequences.

Ned adds to the problem letting both girls run around unchaperoned, and I remember on first read through smh over how little supervision they got with not even a household guard accompanying them. He shoulda coulda woulda known better about that, especially since he knew not to trust the Lannisters beforehand. Sansa should not have been with Joffrey without a proper escort, and no adult was around to stop Arya from running off with Mycah, and putting him at risk.

As for empathy, I think both girls have it, with different outlets for expressing it, but also have their blind spots.

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8 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

See, I am just the opposite...

So wait, you don't drink scotch or cheap watered down beer?

Then clearly you are my arch-nemesis!  

 

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6 minutes ago, Lurid Jester said:

So wait, you don't drink scotch or cheap watered down beer?

Then clearly you are my arch-nemesis!  

 

reminds me of a line from one of my favorite books The Club Dumas:

"What are you so afraid of, Corso? That I'll put my arms around you? That the sky'll fall on you?"

"I'm afraid of wooden horses, cheap gin and pretty girls. Especially when they give me presents."

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7 minutes ago, Lurid Jester said:

So wait, you don't drink scotch or cheap watered down beer?

Then clearly you are my arch-nemesis!  

 

Dude, when bellying up to the bar you gotta ask for Glenfiddich, especially when LM is buying.

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Just now, Clegane'sPup said:

Dude, when bellying up to the bar you gotta ask for Glenfiddich, especially when LM is buying.

You should see the dead glenfiddich soldiers I have above my cupboard. 18yr is my favorite, followed by 12 and then 15.  Yamazaki is a good scotch style whiskey out of Japan.  

Cant stand any of that peaty stuff from Islay. 

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4 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Dude, when bellying up to the bar you gotta ask for Glenfiddich, especially when LM is buying.

Boo on highland piss. Islay Isles or bust. I will have a laphroaig

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No one has mentioned the beauty and the beast theme for Sansa. The Hound and the lady fair. I'm disappointed.

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One thing you people all seem to be forgetting about in the Sansa/Arya/Jeoffrey situation is that contradicting the account of a prince royal in mediaeval society and basically accusing him of lying and behaving dishonorably is treason. You could end up with your head on a spike for that. After all, it was exactly this sort of thing that started the civil war that brought Robert to power. A challenge like that could not go unpunished, and that was the hard place Sansa was in. Someone was going to be punished no matter what. Arya might get a slap on the wrist for poor behaviour as a child, but the consequences for Sansa, even for telling the truth (and especially for telling the truth) would be much greater. Her life in the royal court would have ended, and best case scenario is that she would be banished to the north. She might well have been forced to join the faith as a sister, basically social death and a life in poverty. And all that consequence for something that was not her doing. It is not a position she wanted to be in, nor was it her choice to be in that position, so she opted to stay out of it. It is not unreasonable for her to do that.

In an absolute monarchy the monarch and his/her heirs are always right, no matter what they do. Sansa understood that. Arya did not.

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14 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

No one has mentioned the beauty and the beast theme for Sansa. The Hound and the lady fair. I'm disappointed.

:lol: 

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49 minutes ago, Lurid Jester said:

So wait, you don't drink scotch or cheap watered down beer?

Then clearly you are my arch-nemesis!  

 

Yeah? Wait until you get a load of this...

(Please understand that I am writing this with my tongue in my cheek.) So, we’re six pages into this thread... how come nobody’s brought up Jeyne Poole yet? “She was the daughter of Winterfell's steward and Sansa's dearest friend.” Arya I, Game VII. After she left the Hand’s Tourney, “Sansa had almost forgotten about Jeyne.” Sansa II, Game 29. Of course, “Jeyne was only a steward's daughter, after all.” Sansa III, Game 24. And, after Cersei’s purge, “Jeyne was useless. Her face was puffy from all her crying, and she could not seem to stop sobbing about her father.” Of course, “Sansa dried her own tears as she struggled to comfort her friend. They went to sleep in the same bed, cradled in each other's arms like sisters.” (Poor Jeyne.) And Sansa came through, asking after Jeyne’s father, to which Petyr replied, "I'll find a place for her." (Lousy creep.) So, Sansa asked after her dearest friend’s father, and Petyr said he would find a place for her. Cersei even instructed her Kingsguard, "Ser Boros, escort this girl to Lord Petyr's apartments and instruct his people to keep her there until he comes for her. Tell her that Littlefinger will be taking her to see her father, that ought to calm her down.” And to Sansa, Cersei said, “Lord Baelish will see that Jeyne's well taken care of, I promise you.” And Sansa’s reaction was, “No more weeping, she thought gratefully.” Sansa IV, Game 51.

Now, I realize that many of you lemonheads believe that Sansa has changed oh so much since Game. She has become more compassionate, she misses her family, and she is learning how to manipulate the bad guys, so that by the time we are dreaming of spring, she will be restoring House Stark to the silvery luster with which it shone before her father let the clan down. So, it’s not fair of me to bring up stuff from Game and to hold it against her. Pah! I say...

The last time she missed her dearest and truest friend was in Clash...

Quote

She missed Septa Mordane, and even more Jeyne Poole, her truest friend. The septa had lost her head with the rest, for the crime of serving House Stark. Sansa did not know what had happened to Jeyne, who had disappeared from her rooms afterward, never to be mentioned again. She tried not to think of them too often, yet sometimes the memories came unbidden, and then it was hard to hold back the tears. Once in a while, Sansa even missed her sister. By now Arya was safe back in Winterfell, dancing and sewing, playing with Bran and baby Rickon, even riding through the winter town if she liked. Sansa was allowed to go riding too, but only in the bailey, and it got boring going round in a circle all day.

Sansa II, Clash 18

Quote

She sang along with grizzled old serving men and anxious young wives, with serving girls and soldiers, cooks and falconers, knights and knaves, squires and spit boys and nursing mothers. She sang with those inside the castle walls and those without, sang with all the city. She sang for mercy, for the living and the dead alike, for Bran and Rickon and Robb, for her sister Arya and her bastard brother Jon Snow, away off on the Wall. She sang for her mother and her father, for her grandfather Lord Hoster and her uncle Edmure Tully, for her friend Jeyne Poole, for old drunken King Robert, for Septa Mordane and Ser Dontos and Jory Cassel and Maester Luwin, for all the brave knights and soldiers who would die today, and for the children and the wives who would mourn them, and finally, toward the end, she even sang for Tyrion the Imp and for the Hound. He is no true knight but he saved me all the same, she told the Mother. Save him if you can, and gentle the rage inside him.

Sansa V, Clash 57

Nope, the new Sansa, or Alayne, has merely replaced her old bestie with a new bestie, Myranda Royce: “Alayne found herself warming to the older girl. She had not had a friend to gossip with since poor Jeyne Poole.” Alayne II, Feast 41

Spoiler

 

Horns sounded from atop the wall. “Too late,” Myranda said. “They’re here. We shall need to do the honors by ourselves.” She grinned. “Last one to the gate must marry Uther Shett.”

They made a race of it, dashing headlong across the yard and past the stables, skirts flapping, whilst knights and serving men alike looked on, and pigs and chickens scattered before them. It was most unladylike, but Alayne sound found herself laughing. For just a little while, as she ran, she forget who she was, and where, and found herself remembering bright cold days at Winterfell, when she would race through Winterfell with her friend Jeyne Poole, with Arya running after them trying to keep up.

 

Alayne, Winds

Why hasn’t Alayne asked “her father” what he did with her dearest and truest friend? I know, I know, maybe she did it off screen. If that's your response give me a hint in the text to support it. Otherwise you're just grasping at nonexistent straws. 

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6 minutes ago, tugela said:

One thing you people all seem to be forgetting about in the Sansa/Arya/Jeoffrey situation is that contradicting the account of a prince royal in mediaeval society and basically accusing him of lying and behaving dishonorably is treason. You could end up with your head on a spike for that. After all, it was exactly this sort of thing that started the civil war that brought Robert to power. A challenge like that could not go unpunished, and that was the hard place Sansa was in. Someone was going to be punished no matter what. Arya might get a slap on the wrist for poor behaviour as a child, but the consequences for Sansa, even for telling the truth (and especially for telling the truth) would be much greater. Her life in the royal court would have ended, and best case scenario is that she would be banished to the north. She might well have been forced to join the faith as a sister, basically social death and a life in poverty. And all that consequence for something that was not her doing. It is not a position she wanted to be in, nor was it her choice to be in that position, so she opted to stay out of it. It is not unreasonable for her to do that.

In an absolute monarchy the monarch and his/her heirs are always right, no matter what they do. Sansa understood that. Arya did not.

Or Robert might have just slapped Jeoff on the wrist... Lady might have lived and Sansa might have kept her honor. I don't see any reason to believe that what she said was going to cause any earth shattering changes. I mean Jaime kills Ned's men and wounds him and Robert went hunting... This idea that telling the truth would have been a bad thing is crazy.

Also, there's a special place in hell for those who won't pick a side when push comes to shove

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1 minute ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Yeah? Wait until you get a load of this...

(Please understand that I am writing this with my tongue in my cheek.) So, we’re six pages into this thread... how come nobody’s brought up Jeyne Poole yet? “She was the daughter of Winterfell's steward and Sansa's dearest friend.” Arya I, Game VII. After she left the Hand’s Tourney, “Sansa had almost forgotten about Jeyne.” Sansa II, Game 29. Of course, “Jeyne was only a steward's daughter, after all.” Sansa III, Game 24. And, after Cersei’s purge, “Jeyne was useless. Her face was puffy from all her crying, and she could not seem to stop sobbing about her father.” Of course, “Sansa dried her own tears as she struggled to comfort her friend. They went to sleep in the same bed, cradled in each other's arms like sisters.” (Poor Jeyne.) And Sansa came through, asking after Jeyne’s father, to which Petyr replied, "I'll find a place for her." (Lousy creep.) So, Sansa asked after her rearest friend’s father, and Petyr said he would find a place for her. Cersei even instructed her Kingsguard, "Ser Boros, escort this girl to Lord Petyr's apartments and instruct his people to keep her there until he comes for her. Tell her that Littlefinger will be taking her to see her father, that ought to calm her down.” And to Sansa, Cersei said, “Lord Baelish will see that Jeyne's well taken care of, I promise you.” And Sansa’s reaction was, “No more weeping, she thought gratefully.” Sansa IV, Game 51.

Now, I realize that many of you lemonheads believe that Sansa has changed oh so much since Game. She has become more compassionate, she misses her family, and she is learning how to manipulate the bad guys, so that by the time we are dreaming of spring, she will be restoring House Stark before he father let the clan down. So, it’s not fair of me to bring up stuff from Game and to hold it against her. Pah! I say...

The last time she missed her dearest and truest friend was in Clash...

Sansa II, Clash 18

Sansa V, Clash 57

Nope, the new Sansa, or Alayne, has merely replaced her old bestie with a new a new bestie, Myranda Royce: “Alayne found herself warming to the older girl. She had not had a friend to gossip with since poor Jeyne Poole.” Alayne II, Feast 41

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Horns sounded from atop the wall. “Too late,” Myranda said. “They’re here. We shall need to do the honors by ourselves.” She grinned. “Last one to the gate must marry Uther Shett.”

They made a race of it, dashing headlong across the yard and past the stables, skirts flapping, whilst knights and serving men alike looked on, and pigs and chickens scattered before them. It was most unladylike, but Alayne sound found herself laughing. For just a little while, as she ran, she forget who she was, and where, and found herself remembering bright cold days at Winterfell, when she would race through Winterfell with her friend Jeyne Poole, with Arya running after them trying to keep up.

 

Alayne, Winds

Why hasn’t Alayne asked “her father” what he did with her dearest and truest friend? I know, I know, maybe she did it off screen. If that's your response give me a hint in the text to support it. Otherwise you're just grasping at nonexistent straws. 

I did bring up Jayne Poole! Not fair!

I compared her to Cersei's childhood friend as I stand by the Sansa/Cersei Parallel

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33 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Dude, when bellying up to the bar you gotta ask for Glenfiddich, especially when LM is buying.

Hah! Another round for my friends! And for the lemonheads too! To life! 

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Just now, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Or Robert might have just slapped Jeoff on the wrist

correct. If there was some kind of enmity between house stark and house Baratheon this might have made a pretext for something but, as we know, it was quite the opposite. Robert and Ned loved each other and Robert had travelled north to make Ned hand of the king. Like Tyrion says to kingsguard (mandon moore, Ser Meryn?) "if he tells you to saddle his horse do it. if he tells you to kil his horse come to me" The point is, Prince and heir apparent or no Joff is a child as is Sansa and Arya. Robert very well could have said, and ought to have said, when asked to hear out the sides and decide "what?, are you all f'n nuts. children will play rough now get me some wine and let me know when something actually important happens"

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2 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Or Robert might have just slapped Jeoff on the wrist... Lady might have lived and Sansa might have kept her honor. I don't see any reason to believe that what she said was going to cause any earth shattering changes. I mean Jaime kills Ned's men and wounds him and Robert went hunting... This idea that telling the truth would have been a bad thing is crazy.

But Sansa would have to live with Joffrey as her husband. And in a society like Westeros which is all about reputation and honor, humiliating the future king publicly like that is not something he's likely to forget soon.

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6 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Hah! Another round for my friends! And for the lemonheads too! To life! 

:wub:

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