Sansa is truly one of the best characters and her development is fascinating

[David Selig]

49 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said:

This idea that she was appeasing Joffrey to stop him holding the events against her when married makes no sense. It is clear that Joffrey was blaming the Starks and going to be majorly resentful to all of them anyway.

How the hell could Sansa have known this for sure at the time? Mindreading?

[zandru]

sweetsunray makes many good points. "Nobody is threatening her here with her life, but given the chance to lie and talk ill of her father who is down in a dungeon, she takes it and all because she wants to marry Joff. "

Sansa continued to "love" Joff, in spite of seeing his bullying actions toward Mycah and his cowardice when facing Arya. She continued to "love" him when he, injured, turned on her and told her to not touch him, just ride off for help. Sansa "loved" him at the Hand's Tourney, when Joffers didn't care to sit with her. She "loved" him after the banquet, in spite of Joff ordering the terrifying, horrible, crude and nasty Hound to take her back to the castle. And on it went. Sansa willfully blinded herself, partly because she really, really, REALLY wanted to be The Queen. And she never hesitates to throw members of her own family under the oxcart (good one!) whenever she thinks it will help.

Basically, Sansa continued her "love" for Joffrey up until when he had her father's head cut off. All the evidence of her lyin' eyes to the contrary, that this was a sadistic, selfish, cowardly bully who cared little for her for herself, but at most, because Mommy Said So and Sansa had a claim to Winterfell. This is why several people have concluded that Sansa just isn't terribly bright. Sadly, after 5 books, she still leaves a lot to be desired. This discussion ought to move on to some of the passive, selfish, self-centered and cowardly things Sansa did in "Clash of Kings" and beyond.

[Philokles]

15 minutes ago, David Selig said:

How the hell could Sansa have known this for sure at the time? Mindreading?

Telling her this, and not just dropping it when it was clear that he was making a fool of himself but creating an elaborate lie should have been a bit of a give away.

Quote

After they had gone, Sansa went to Prince Joffrey. His eyes were closed in pain, his breath ragged. Sansa knelt beside him. "Joffrey," she sobbed. "Oh, look what they did, look what they did. My poor prince. Don't be afraid. I'll ride to the holdfast and bring help for you." Tenderly she reached out and brushed back his soft blond hair.

His eyes snapped open and looked at her, and there was nothing but loathing there, nothing but the vilest contempt. "Then go," he spit at her. "And don't touch me."

 

[sweetsunray]

27 minutes ago, zandru said:

Basically, Sansa continued her "love" for Joffrey up until when he had her father's head cut off. All the evidence of her lyin' eyes to the contrary, that this was a sadistic, selfish, cowardly bully who cared little for her for herself, but at most, because Mommy Said So and Sansa had a claim to Winterfell. This is why several people have concluded that Sansa just isn't terribly bright. Sadly, after 5 books, she still leaves a lot to be desired. This discussion ought to move on to some of the passive, selfish, self-centered and cowardly things Sansa did in "Clash of Kings" and beyond.

To be fair: grown adults who want to love someone really badly, even with high IQ, will self-delude as well. It has little to do with brightness or intelligence. It all has to do with beliefs versus reality, and beliefs always win out against reality. It's literally painful for the brain to accept reality over beliefs. Everybody's brain tries to avoid cog-dis, whether it's about smoking, or the latest overpriced gadget they bought with gazillion functions they don't use let alone know how to get working, and when love enters the picture we're talking blissful oxytocine rushes whenever you get positive attention of the love object. And Sansa realy, really, REALLY believes in fairytales, and wants to believe in them. Combine it all together in a pre-teen brain with little to no experience at all, and Sansa behaves quite "normal" (given those conditions). Her fantasy is both her weakness as well as her strength. 

In aGoT, her choices are imo selfish, disloyal and delusional, but they are not abnormal given her proneness to fantasy.

[YouKnowNothingJonSnow]

I find the anti-Sansa posters to largely have a, shall we say, incomplete, inaccurate, and irrational recollection of the facts of the story and generally not take in new facts or more accurate accounts of what actually happened. With some exceptions, of course.

Especially regarding Ned's death. The idea that she doesn't care for those who have served her or realize what a dope she was earlier in the story are just not true either.

I love the way Sansa has developed. She, Dany, and Asha (and Arianne?) could make for fearsome rulers once women are allowed to take the helm.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

55 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Her upbringing and her own preferences magnified each other.

I'm completely in agreement with you on this.

Septa Mordane drilled the idea of her marital duty into Sansa's brain with all the subtlety of a jackhammer. But Sansa herself picked up that ball and ran with it a long, long way.

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Yeah? Wait until you get a load of this...

(Please understand that I am writing this with my tongue in my cheek.) So, we’re six pages into this thread... how come nobody’s brought up Jeyne Poole yet? “She was the daughter of Winterfell's steward and Sansa's dearest friend.” Arya I, Game VII. After she left the Hand’s Tourney, “Sansa had almost forgotten about Jeyne.” Sansa II, Game 29. Of course, “Jeyne was only a steward's daughter, after all.” Sansa III, Game 24. And, after Cersei’s purge, “Jeyne was useless. Her face was puffy from all her crying, and she could not seem to stop sobbing about her father.” Of course, “Sansa dried her own tears as she struggled to comfort her friend. They went to sleep in the same bed, cradled in each other's arms like sisters.” (Poor Jeyne.) And Sansa came through, asking after Jeyne’s father, to which Petyr replied, "I'll find a place for her." (Lousy creep.) So, Sansa asked after her dearest friend’s father, and Petyr said he would find a place for her. Cersei even instructed her Kingsguard, "Ser Boros, escort this girl to Lord Petyr's apartments and instruct his people to keep her there until he comes for her. Tell her that Littlefinger will be taking her to see her father, that ought to calm her down.” And to Sansa, Cersei said, “Lord Baelish will see that Jeyne's well taken care of, I promise you.” And Sansa’s reaction was, “No more weeping, she thought gratefully.” Sansa IV, Game 51.

Now, I realize that many of you lemonheads believe that Sansa has changed oh so much since Game. She has become more compassionate, she misses her family, and she is learning how to manipulate the bad guys, so that by the time we are dreaming of spring, she will be restoring House Stark to the silvery luster with which it shone before her father let the clan down. So, it’s not fair of me to bring up stuff from Game and to hold it against her. Pah! I say...

The last time she missed her dearest and truest friend was in Clash...

Sansa II, Clash 18

Sansa V, Clash 57

Nope, the new Sansa, or Alayne, has merely replaced her old bestie with a new bestie, Myranda Royce: “Alayne found herself warming to the older girl. She had not had a friend to gossip with since poor Jeyne Poole.” Alayne II, Feast 41

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Horns sounded from atop the wall. “Too late,” Myranda said. “They’re here. We shall need to do the honors by ourselves.” She grinned. “Last one to the gate must marry Uther Shett.”

They made a race of it, dashing headlong across the yard and past the stables, skirts flapping, whilst knights and serving men alike looked on, and pigs and chickens scattered before them. It was most unladylike, but Alayne sound found herself laughing. For just a little while, as she ran, she forget who she was, and where, and found herself remembering bright cold days at Winterfell, when she would race through Winterfell with her friend Jeyne Poole, with Arya running after them trying to keep up.

 

Alayne, Winds

Why hasn’t Alayne asked “her father” what he did with her dearest and truest friend? I know, I know, maybe she did it off screen. If that's your response give me a hint in the text to support it. Otherwise you're just grasping at nonexistent straws. 

C'mon lemonheads...

[Protagoras]

Finally this Sansa-discussion is starting to make much more sense. And sweetsunray certainly makes some good points.

Sansa is, in many instances, lying to herself and rearranging the facts and one thing she always tend to do is blaming Arya. Sansa internally blames Arya for everything - from ruining her day, for not being perfect like Myrcella etc. Therefore it makes sense to assume that her attempt of lying that she didn´t remember was NOT an attempt to protect everyone and take no sides but rather the most lying she could get away with. That the scene with the oranges later is not an example of sibling rivalry but rather one of Sansas true feelings. She really believes Arya is to blame for everything and constantly blames Arya for the consequences of her own choices.

As for telling Cersei - When the push comes to showe, she again picks the same side she did at the Trident and as she did during the time in King´s landing. She have chosen. The choice is Joffrey, the choice is the South, the choice is to be queen. The same choice Cersei herself did many years ago.

To compare her with Catelyn (who quite frankly is very similiar to Arya with her fierce personality) is an insult to Cat. I agree with all those that see a similarity between Ned and Sansa, they are both introverted but compassionate where Catelyn and Arya have a strong moral backbone, act with fury and in general doesn´t compromize. Problem with Sansa is that her compassion doesn´t evolve until she have been burned by the fire and know herself how it is to be bullied, lonely and ignored. Better late than never I guess.

In the end, Sansa wished to stay with Joffrey and in the capital, to be with her beloved. She got what she wished for.

[Darkstream]

Heh, Lemonheads. What do you all call the Sansa haters...Lemonsquishers?

[Lost Melnibonean]

5 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

Heh, Lemonheads. What do you all call the Sansa haters...Lemonsquishers?

Man, I am telling you, you got to stay away from lemons in ASOIAF. Whenever one pops up bad things happen...

In Sansa I, Game 15, she was looking forward to lemon cakes in the queen's wheelhouse, but her day ended with her prince's loathing and contempt. Samwell's early childhood went from snitching lemon cakes to contempt, abuse, and banishment by his father. In Sansa II, Game 29, Sansa went from enjoying lemon cakes with Joffrey at the feast following the first day of jousting to being escorted back to her cell by the Hound. In Sansa III, Game 44, Sansa and Jeyne (poor Jeyne) looked for lemon cakes in the kitchen, but at the end of the chapter learned her father was sending back to Winterfell. Sansa shared lemon cakes with the Tyrells before being forced to wed the imp. Before donning the ugly little girl's face, the kindly man gave a girl a drink so tart it was like biting into lemon. That made "no one" think of Arya's sister, and Sansa's fondness for lemon cakes.

In Arya V, Game 65, Arya offered to trade a fat pigeon for a lemon, but ened up at her father's execution. Jeor Mormont drank lemon in his beer every day. He still had his own teeth but his men mutinied and murdered him. At Bitterbridge, Renly's bannermen feasted on lemon cakes. Of course, Renly's campaign ened shortly thereafter. As Davos sailed with Stannis's fleet into Blackwater Bay, he observed Aegon's High Hill, dark against a lemon sky. That's an odd description for a sky, no? As Davos turned downstream, the mouth of the Blackwater Rush had turned into the mouth of hell.

At Edmure's wedding feast Catelyn noted that Ryman Frey had bathed in lemon water but failed to mask his sour sweat, and that Roose smelled sweeter but no more pleasant. The Feast did not end on a happy note. At Joffrey's wedding feast Tyrion had a slice of pigeon pie covered with a spoon of lemon cream. A few paragraphs later he stood accused of regicide. Cersei drank lemon water so tart she had to spit it out the morning she learned that Tyrion had murdered their father.

Lem Lemoncloak just reeks of bitterness and disappointment, and Doran's Water Gardens smell of lemons and blood oranges. Anybody think Dorne is going end up happy with their blood and fire? In The Queenmaker, Arianne noticed that Darkstar preferred lemon water to summer wine, and she served lemonsweet to Myrcella before Darkstar cut off Myrcella's ear amidst lemon orchards watered by a spider's web of old canals.

Stannis enjoys boiled eggs and lemon water for breakfast, and, well, I think we all know his end will be bitter and disappointing. In Jon IV, Dance 17, Stannis offers lemon water to Jon. Wisely, Jon refuses. Stannis drinks more.

The merry band aboard the Shy Maid enjoy a pike with lemon juice, but come on, who doesn't eat Pike without lemon? And Ysilla was from Dorne. Still, I woulda passed. Tyrion suspected Yezzan was drinking lemon water as the yellow whale bid on him and Penny. Tyrion served Nurse lemonsweet with the mushrooms from Illyrio's garden.The Green Grace accepted a goblet of sweeetened lemon juice from the Queen's hand, just before infected corpses started flying over the walls. Oh, and guess what kind of trees Daenerys has in her terrace garden in Meereen? 

On the morning Sansa was forced to marry the imp, along with the new gown, Cersei sent her favorite scents for Sansa's use too. Of course, "Sansa chose a sharp sweet fragrance with a hint of lemon in it under the smell of flowers." 

And,the last of 18 dishes served to Joffrey just before he died was topped with a spoon of lemon cream. 

[Protagoras]

I think it is also worth to point out that this is NOT a normal kid fight nor "normal" name-calling. Aryas friend and Sansas wolf are dead because of this little "mishap" and that is not something that you will just be able to forget like that (the "Cersei-gate" is less harmful here and can most likely be ignored).

I am not saying they hate each other, but there is some clear damage here - damage that is directly caused by their sisterhood. So I really recommend that Sansa remember that the boys name was Mycah, and fast. I mean, considering the disunity on this forum in this question - what makes you think any of them will reevalute and regret what they did? And this is not a question that can be ignored with different opinions and such. The Trident incident needs to be ironed out in order to have a working relation.  A villain needs to be found. And blaming Joffrey is too easy. Siblings are nice and all, but if there is no respect and trust the relation wont be stronger than to a lesser friend.

 

[zandru]

Per sweetsunray,

Quote

To be fair: grown adults who want to love someone really badly, even with high IQ, will self-delude as well.

Sansa's propensity to "self-delude" continues, and even seems to increase, as the books go on. It puts one in mind of Cersei Lannister. Sansa's grooming by her dear "father" Petyr Baelish, and starting to learn the Cersei-like wiles of flirting and seduction, put her on an even more parallel path. Now, show Sansa has come to hate and distrust Baelish (while simultaneously depending on and sort of trusting him), has even threatened his life. Book Sansa doesn't feel this enmity, although at times he makes her uneasy. She doesn't seem to have learned that Petyr strutting all around King's Landing for a decade or more, bragging on how he'd deflowered Ned Stark's wife before Ned married her, or how Baelish dirties any event that he recounts. She does't "see with her eyes" as Arya was taught by Syrio Forel and Sandor Clegane.

And, unlike Cersei, Sansa remains basically passive, letting events flow around her and taking direction from dear Petyr. Show Sansa set up Ramsey's death - book Sansa doesn't seem to have the will to act on her own, where she might be judged.

[PureGold]

I fell in love with Sansa's story in CoK.   It was through her we got to see and truly realize the monster in human flesh that was Joffrey.   We got exposure to deeply and darkly malicious Cersei Lannister is.   I had butterflies in my stomach when she first snuck down to the Godswood and met with her mysterious "friend" that turned out to be Ser Dontos.  I was horrified and terrified for her during the Riots, when she got her period and tried to set her mattress on fire and I thought the Battle of Blackwater was harrowing.  Especially when Cersei informed her that Ser Ilyn was instructed to make sure Sansa died before Stannis was able to take her into custody, just to make sure House Stark couldn't completely enjoy the fall of House Lannister.

I was just as disheartened as Sansa when we see the executions dealt out to Stannic's men in the Throne Room and I had butterflies in my stomach when she first snuck down to the Godswood and met with her mysterious "friend" that turned out to be Ser Dontos.  

Her interactions with the Tyrells were both intriguing and entertaining.   Within her first chapter of ASOS she had become a co-conspirator in another intrigue taking place right under the Lannister's nose.  She made the mistake of thinking that someone who wasn't a Noble, couldn't do anything to harm her.  Hence why she told him to forget their plan and she was going to marry into House Tyrell.  To be fair, it would have saved her from Lannister custody but like many of the Highborn in this story, Sansa made the mistake of underestimating a "lowborn."   She makes a point of becoming close to the Tyrells, never putting a toe out of line to ensure they bring her in even when she thinks they are being stupid.  Specifically Margery's cousins.

Her marriage to Tyrion was of course one of the most shocking plot twist in the whole saga.  I never would have seen that coming when we were first introduced to the characters.   Under Tyrions nose and once the Tyrells are not going to help her, Sansa continues to meet with Dontos.  It's very interesting that she knew not to confide what she was planning to the Tyrells.   And the Tyrion/Sansa chapters at the Purple Wedding are some of the best writing in all of the novels.   Again my heart was in my throat during the whole escape, her realizing that the poison was in HER hairnet and that she would go down if they caught her.

She then has intriguing and macabre exposition with Petyr and we see her reconnect with family.  I thought I would be bored of Sansa once she left the drama of Kings Landing but I LOVED her following chapters as well.   When LF is on the scene there is always a sinister vibe simmering.   Whenever he is in Sansa's vicinity it's like watching a snake surround it's prey.   Around and around he coils.   When we first met Sansa in GoT who would have thought she would end up a fugitive from the Iron Throne, living under a secret identity, a co-conspirator in a murder cover-up after Lysa Arryn tried to murder her.   I'm sorry but there is no plot twist like a plot twist in a Sansa chapter.

The sneak peek we've been given of The Winds of Winter we my appetite even more for intrigue and scandal in terms of everything Littlefinger and Sansa are going to be up to.   She certainly seems to be better at keeping up with Littlefinger.  I've always been impressed with her intelligence when we saw that she was able to follow along LF's world play when describing how Harry The Heir is heir to Robyn Arryn.   We see Sansa learning how to use image and perception to her advantage, something I think she's learned from Littlefinger and The Tyrells, something we haven't seen anyone else in House Stark employ..  I think she's leaps and bounds from where she started.   And her character isn't a unicorn with dragons and she isn't superpower child assassin.   She's just a young girl trying to make  it and who doesn't give up.  LOVE this character.  Definitely one of GRRM's best.

I also love that she's interacted with the best characters.  Robb and Catelyn were sequestered together.   Arya was with her sniveling little goonies and Bran and Jon were in the North and Wall respectively.   Sansa got to build dynamics and relationships with Joffrey, Tyrion, Cersei, Littlefinger, Lysa, Margaery, Olenna, Garlan (always loved how sweet he was to Sansa) and the rest of the Tyrell court.   She even got to meet Oberyn Martell and Ellaria Sand.

She is now in a different arena entirely and I've grown to love or at least be intrigued by The Lords Declarant and their feud with LF, Myranda Royce, Harry Harrdyg, Lyn Cobray (a new hissable villain), Luthor Bronn, Mya Stone, Ser Shadrich.   Everytime I come to the end of a Sansa/Alayne chapter I can't wait until the next one.   Hands Down one of the best characters for my money.

I've never been bothered by her actions in AGOT because I thought she did the right thing.  Going against the family you are about to marry into for a careless sister that's going to get to skip off back to Winterfell (or wherever she was off to next) while your stuck with enemies made over something your ill-behaved sister did?  Ya.  Not enviable.   Arya could have behaved and just walked away when Joffrey was making a nuisance of himself, she could have NOT HIT the CROWN PRINCE, but because Ned and Catelyn let her run wild with little structure or respect for decorum, she ignited hostilities with one of the most vindictive Houses in all of Westeros.   Ned really should have left Arya in Winterfell.   The Royal Court was no place for her.

[Lost Melnibonean]

26 minutes ago, PureGold said:

I fell in love with Sansa's story in CoK.   It was through her we got to see and truly realize the monster in human flesh that was Joffrey.   We got exposure to deeply and darkly malicious Cersei Lannister is.   I had butterflies in my stomach when she first snuck down to the Godswood and met with her mysterious "friend" that turned out to be Ser Dontos.  I was horrified and terrified for her during the Riots, when she got her period and tried to set her mattress on fire and I thought the Battle of Blackwater was harrowing.  Especially when Cersei informed her that Ser Ilyn was instructed to make sure Sansa died before Stannis was able to take her into custody, just to make sure House Stark couldn't completely enjoy the fall of House Lannister.

I was just as disheartened as Sansa when we see the executions dealt out to Stannic's men in the Throne Room and I had butterflies in my stomach when she first snuck down to the Godswood and met with her mysterious "friend" that turned out to be Ser Dontos.  

Her interactions with the Tyrells were both intriguing and entertaining.   Within her first chapter of ASOS she had become a co-conspirator in another intrigue taking place right under the Lannister's nose.  She made the mistake of thinking that someone who wasn't a Noble, couldn't do anything to harm her.  Hence why she told him to forget their plan and she was going to marry into House Tyrell.  To be fair, it would have saved her from Lannister custody but like many of the Highborn in this story, Sansa made the mistake of underestimating a "lowborn."   She makes a point of becoming close to the Tyrells, never putting a toe out of line to ensure they bring her in even when she thinks they are being stupid.  Specifically Margery's cousins.

Her marriage to Tyrion was of course one of the most shocking plot twist in the whole saga.  I never would have seen that coming when we were first introduced to the characters.   Under Tyrions nose and once the Tyrells are not going to help her, Sansa continues to meet with Dontos.  It's very interesting that she knew not to confide what she was planning to the Tyrells.   And the Tyrion/Sansa chapters at the Purple Wedding are some of the best writing in all of the novels.   Again my heart was in my throat during the whole escape, her realizing that the poison was in HER hairnet and that she would go down if they caught her.

She then has intriguing and macabre exposition with Petyr and we see her reconnect with family.  I thought I would be bored of Sansa once she left the drama of Kings Landing but I LOVED her following chapters as well.   When LF is on the scene there is always a sinister vibe simmering.   Whenever he is in Sansa's vicinity it's like watching a snake surround it's prey.   Around and around he coils.   When we first met Sansa in GoT who would have thought she would end up a fugitive from the Iron Throne, living under a secret identity, a co-conspirator in a murder cover-up after Lysa Arryn tried to murder her.   I'm sorry but there is no plot twist like a plot twist in a Sansa chapter.

The sneak peek we've been given of The Winds of Winter we my appetite even more for intrigue and scandal in terms of everything Littlefinger and Sansa are going to be up to.   She certainly seems to be better at keeping up with Littlefinger.  I've always been impressed with her intelligence when we saw that she was able to follow along LF's world play when describing how Harry The Heir is heir to Robyn Arryn.   We see Sansa learning how to use image and perception to her advantage, something I think she's learned from Littlefinger and The Tyrells, something we haven't seen anyone else in House Stark employ..  I think she's leaps and bounds from where she started.   And her character isn't a unicorn with dragons and she isn't superpower child assassin.   She's just a young girl trying to make  it and who doesn't give up.  LOVE this character.  Definitely one of GRRM's best.

I also love that she's interacted with the best characters.  Robb and Catelyn were sequestered together.   Arya was with her sniveling little goonies and Bran and Jon were in the North and Wall respectively.   Sansa got to build dynamics and relationships with Joffrey, Tyrion, Cersei, Littlefinger, Lysa, Margaery, Olenna, Garlan (always loved how sweet he was to Sansa) and the rest of the Tyrell court.   She even got to meet Oberyn Martell and Ellaria Sand.

She is now in a different arena entirely and I've grown to love or at least be intrigued by The Lords Declarant and their feud with LF, Myranda Royce, Harry Harrdyg, Lyn Cobray (a new hissable villain), Luthor Bronn, Mya Stone, Ser Shadrich.   Everytime I come to the end of a Sansa/Alayne chapter I can't wait until the next one.   Hands Down one of the best characters for my money.

I've never been bothered by her actions in AGOT because I thought she did the right thing.  Going against the family you are about to marry into for a careless sister that's going to get to skip off back to Winterfell (or wherever she was off to next) while your stuck with enemies made over something your ill-behaved sister did?  Ya.  Not enviable.   Arya could have behaved and just walked away when Joffrey was making a nuisance of himself, she could have NOT HIT the CROWN PRINCE, but because Ned and Catelyn let her run wild with little structure or respect for decorum, she ignited hostilities with one of the most vindictive Houses in all of Westeros.   Ned really should have left Arya in Winterfell.   The Royal Court was no place for her.

You had me (I like Sansa too, believe it or not), until you got to that last bit there...

Quote

Prince Joffrey laughed. The boy looked around, wide-eyed and startled, and dropped his stick in the grass. The girl glared at them, sucking on her knuckles to take the sting out, and Sansa was horrified. "Arya?" she called out incredulously.

"Go away," Arya shouted back at them, angry tears in her eyes. "What are you doing here? Leave us alone."

Joffrey glanced from Arya to Sansa and back again. "Your sister?" She nodded, blushing. Joffrey examined the boy, an ungainly lad with a coarse, freckled face and thick red hair. "And who are you, boy?" he asked in a commanding tone that took no notice of the fact that the other was a year his senior.

"Mycah," the boy muttered. He recognized the prince and averted his eyes. "M'lord."

"He's the butcher's boy," Sansa said.

"He's my friend," Arya said sharply. "You leave him alone."

"A butcher's boy who wants to be a knight, is it?" Joffrey swung down from his mount, sword in hand. "Pick up your sword, butcher's boy," he said, his eyes bright with amusement. "Let us see how good you are."

Mycah stood there, frozen with fear.

Joffrey walked toward him. "Go on, pick it up. Or do you only fight little girls?"

"She ast me to, m'lord," Mycah said. "She ast me to."

Sansa had only to glance at Arya and see the flush on her sister's face to know the boy was telling the truth, but Joffrey was in no mood to listen. The wine had made him wild. "Are you going to pick up your sword?"

Mycah shook his head. "It's only a stick, m'lord. It's not no sword, it's only a stick."

"And you're only a butcher's boy, and no knight." Joffrey lifted Lion's Tooth and laid its point on Mycah's cheek below the eye, as the butcher's boy stood trembling. "That was my lady's sister you were hitting, do you know that?" A bright bud of blood blossomed where his sword pressed into Mycah's flesh, and a slow red line trickled down the boy's cheek.

"Stop it!" Arya screamed. She grabbed up her fallen stick.

Sansa was afraid. "Arya, you stay out of this."

"I won't hurt him . . . much," Prince Joffrey told Arya, never taking his eyes off the butcher's boy.

Arya went for him.

Sansa I, Game 15

I guess you could say the boy was gonna die anyway, so Arya shoulda just walked away and not made a nuisance of herself. 

Oh, and Dontos was highborn. 

[PureGold]

 

Quote

 

Sansa I, Game 15

I guess you could say the boy was gonna die anyway, so Arya shoulda just walked away and not made a nuisance of herself. 

Oh, and Dontos was highborn. 

 

In the world of ASOIAF she probably should have.  Mycha would have been scarred but alive, because he got to witness Joffrey humiliated, he died.   Arya and the boy should have either run away or just let Joffrey have his sadistic fun and hope that a grown up came or that he really wouldn't "hurt him much."  Is it fair? No. Such is life in Westeros.  

If you think of it, what Sansa did is probably the exact course of action Olenna or Margaery would have taken in her circumstances, though they of course would have never allowed someone of Arya's temperament and lack of parlor manners around anyone of consequence.   In this world if one person in your family falls out of favor, your whole House can be persona non grata.

Whoa, totally thought Dontos was just an upjumped knight.

 

 

[Dya of Oldstones]

8 minutes ago, PureGold said:

 

In the world of ASOIAF she probably should have.  Mycha would have been scarred but alive, because he got to witness Joffrey humiliated, he died.   Arya and the boy should have either run away or just let Joffrey have his sadistic fun and hope that a grown up came or that he really wouldn't "hurt him much."  Is it fair? No. Such is life in Westeros.  

If you think of it, what Sansa did is probably the exact course of action Olenna or Margaery would have taken in her circumstances, though they of course would have never allowed someone of Arya's temperament and lack of parlor manners around anyone of consequence.   In this world if one person in your family falls out of favor, your whole House can be persona non grata.

Whoa, totally thought Dontos was just an upjumped knight.

 

 

Both of you are kinda sorta right. House Hollard, with the exception of Dontos, along with House Darklyn were exterminated after the Defiance of Duskendale pre Robert's Rebellion.

[Wall Flower]

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Actually, Ned intends to call off the betrothal effectively the day he returns from the Small Council meeting and fought with Robert over assassinating Dany. He returns and gives orders so that he and his daughters could leave KL the following day before anyone knows he's gone. I'd say that's pretty much being intent on calling off the btrothal. But LF takes him to see Barra and Jaime attacks his men over Tyrion's kidnapping and he falls and shatters his leg.

And one of main reasons imo that Ned does not call it off for so long is because he knows Sansa wants the betrothal so much. Had Sansa not wanted Joff, he would have indeed tried to break it off far sooner imo.

And that's what I find weird with the arguments on how Sansa was groomed, and feared Joff, and was just being a dutiful betrothed. Sansa WANTED Joff. That's the whole point by having her stalk off to tell Cersei, to show us that Sansa wants Joff. She's not acting out of fear of how he may hurt her. She doesn't even believe he would ever hurt her. She acts and behaves the way she does, because she wants to be his wife. 

While that may be one of Ned's motives, I'm not sure we have evidence of that. It's also a big call to break off a betrothal to the king's son and wouldn't be without political or personal consequences for Ned. He has his own agenda (finding out the truth about Jon Arryn's death) to consider. Ned also has his own issues of 'cognitive dissonance' with regard to Robert. Ned constantly tries to put Robert back into the mould of the beloved 'brother' of his (probably faulty) remembrance even when Robert keeps disappointing him. It's not for nothing that Ned and Sansa are father and daughter.

[deja vu]

This thread is meandering through well-worn paths in the Sansa maze.  For a different Sansa analysis, I recommend this post from earlier this year: https://warsandpoliticsoficeandfire.wordpress.com/2016/04/23/dances-with-wolves-analyzing-the-martial-language-of-sansas-story/

[Darkstream]

10 minutes ago, deja vu said:

This thread is meandering through well-worn paths in the Sansa maze.

True enough, one could say I'm having feelings of deja vu.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Well I certainly missed a lot. 

Why is it that when discussing Sansa the entire discussion gets stuck on discussing these same two incidents. I'd love to have an actual discussion about her as a character which doesn't just go round and round in circles discussing the trident and going to Cersei. 

There is so much more to her than these two incidences, which both happen at the very beginning of her story and it says a lot that it is those who dislike her character who simply can not move on from book 1, and won't let go of their initial assessment of the character.  I'll be honest while reading AGOT I wasn't enamoured with her, I have an older sister who my parents think the sun shines out the arse of. It was easy to feel irritated by Sansa so perfect. My older siblings called me names, and it would have been very easy to see her and Jeyne's teasing of Arya as totally evil. It is actually just normal childish behaviour. 

And once you get over these things and actually look at the story as a whole, as opposed to myopically focusing on these two early on events you see that Sansa's story is fantastic.  

Taking into account the big picture when examining why she chose to feign memory lapse at the Trident isn't sugar coating her actions, it is seeking to understand the character and her motivations. And while her betrayal of her fathers plans later on was a wicked act, which she herself acknowledges. She in no way understood just how calamitous things would become.  It's funny how so many claim she has a lack of empathy and hold this up as a huge character flaw, yet have no empathy at all for her in these two situations. Simply condemning her, despite another 4 and a bit books of development which is also ignored in favour of going on like a stuck record about these early incidences. 

And yes we ought to talk about her development. She changes throughout the books, and learns some sharp lessons. I made a list recently of lessons Sansa has learnt, it's that clear in the book that you can make a bullet pointed list!  We've seen an almost robotically obedient & socially blinkered child develop into a young woman who will coerce, manipulate and bend people to her will (and that isn't a negative, it's a life skill, one which had her father possessed it could have saved his life). Who is capable of discerning people's hidden motives and who is self aware now, so that she understands not only what her own desires are but also that she can achieve them. She feels entitled to her own desires now, where previously she was so brainwashed by her cultural norms that she just accepted as unchangeable the idea that her role was fixed and it's purpose solely to please her future husband (who would be chosen for her.), serve him and provide him with heirs. That her job is to make the relationship happy, make it work, even if that hurts her, find something to love and desire about him, and always put him first.  

We see her throughout the subsequent books questioning her lessons, and coming to her own conclusions. Being placed in the hostage situation actually allows for this development, she is no longer bound by the social rules that she must obey, obviously outwardly she must, and she uses her childhood lessons to great effect here. Her outward docility saves her, every now and again we see a flash of the inner anger and defiance though. When she tells Joffrey that maybe her brother will bring her his head for instance. But the fact she is in her enemies paw gives her the impetus to break from her learnt by wrote rules of being a young maiden. She flirts with vengeance in her thoughts, but never gives over to the dark side of that entirely, she shows kindness when many would rub salt in the wound with Lancel for instance.  

Lots more to say obviously, but alas the school run is calling.