Kinslaying

[The North Forgot]

As we all know, "No man is as cursed as the kinslayer", but where is the line drawn on kinslaying? Of course killing siblings or someone straight up or down the family tree (parents, grandparents, children, grandchildren) is kinslaying, but what if SweetRobin hadn't been a shaky mess but a fierce warrior, and met say Robb on the battlefield in some war they are on opposing sides of? They're cousins, but not of the same House, would that still be kinslaying? Same thing might be relevant in upcoming books if one of the Lannister siblings kills Lancel or the other way around. They're cousins, but of the same house, and I'd guess whoever was the killer would be branded as a kinslayer, but I'm not so sure about the Robb vs SweetRobin thing.

Any ideas?

[Winter prince]

Well we've seen that being accused of kinslaying can reach pretty far since Karstark accused Robb of kinslaying, and the same was said of Jon on behalf of another Karstark.  All because their blood can be traced back to the same lineage.  I can't recall anyone being referred to as kinslayer for cousins though

[The North Forgot]

Yea, that scene with Stark/Karstark is part of what got me thinking, because if you follow that logic, the Starks would be kinslayer almost no matter which other Northerner they had to kill because of the marriages when they subjugated other Kings before the North was united. And also King Robert killed Rhaegar at the Trident, and he's not once mentioned as a kinslayer, despite their blood realation being just a few generations back. Cultural differences in where to draw the line maybe?

[Winter prince]

Maybe it's a situational thing.  Karstark felt he shouldn't have been executed so he accused Robb of kinslaying.  Where Robert and Rhaeger were at open war with each other.

Tyrion killed Tywin through treachery=kinslayer

Bloodraven killed Daemon and Daemon sympathizers labeled him as kinslayer

So, maybe that's what it is

 

[A_Man_Is_No_One]

There's no clear line on kinslaying, supporters of Rhaegar could call Robert a kinslayer but you'll never hear anyone on Robert's side say that of him. There's the obvious killing a brother, sister, father, mother, grandparent, etc. but once you start going into cousins and distant relatives it depends on the person.

[Ashes Of Westeros]

Karstarks descended from Stark a thousand years ago. Though both families a related through marriage, I don't think it could be considered kinslaying. Lord Karstark accused Robb in kinslyaing to humilate him.

Killing a close relative like parents, siblings, even half-siblings is definitely considered a kinslying, but with other relatives it depends on situation. But killing even a distant relative is more hard crime than killing some randome person.

[Cridefea]

I think it's more a social/moral label than a crime with "rules". Yes it is a crime, but putting the label or not  depends on how much people thinks the killing is serious. 

[Michael Mertyns]

SSM on the subject: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Kinslaying_in_Westeros

[Ellenandrew]

I think that it doesn't just depend on the closeness of the actual blood relation, but the actual bond between the two people. While killing a close family member is no doubt considered kinslaying, killing a cousin would only be viewed as such if they grew up together or if they were really close, like brothers. The case of Robb and Karstark is not kinslaying imho, because they only had distant relations, the families did not raise their children in proximity and he just said that because he was being a jerk. Same with Robert and Rhaegar. Or the theoretical case of Robb and Sweet Robin

[The Princess of Ghosts]

I could possibly write an essay on that topic if I had the time but I'll be laconical. Kinslaying is a complete taboo in Westeros, including beyond the wall, and it is mentioned countless times as the worst of crimes even if it is not deliberate. 

Quote

Old gods or new, it makes no matter,” Lord Rickard told her son, “no man is so accursed as the kinslayer.”

[...]

“Kill me, and be cursed. You are no king of mine.”

We can argue if the Red wedding was a manifestation of this curse but if it is then such distant family relations still count. However if this is not the case I am inclined to think that the Robb/SweetRobin encounter would be considered kinslaying as murdering a nephew/uncle is considered kinslaying IRL and being first cousins is a pretty close relation (it doesn't matter that they're from different houses, the blood relation is the same if they were sons of brothers therefore in the same house). But then here comes the notion that marrying your first cousin is not considered to be incest so would killing him/her be not kinslaying?

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

13 hours ago, The North Forgot said:

As we all know, "No man is as cursed as the kinslayer", but where is the line drawn on kinslaying?

No line. Fuzzy, blurry gradient, rather. Say, brother - bad. Father - very bad. Sixth cousin - meh.

[Seams]

I wonder whether this is considered kinslaying:

... Ned said. "How is it that you have had no children by the king?"

She lifted her head, defiant. "Your Robert got me with child once," she said, her voice thick with contempt. "My brother found a woman to cleanse me. He never knew.... " (AGoT, Eddard XII)

[Buried Treasure]

Obviously direct relations are the closest kin, but when the blood relationship is weaker then how individuals identify their family surely matters. To kill a second cousin that belongs to your own house would seem more likely to get you accused of kinslaying than to kill a second cousin with a different name and therefore different ties of loyalty.

The Karstarks are big on the idea that 'actually we are Starks that just live in a different place`. Rickard wasn't entirely casting about for an excuse to curse Robb, though there was a bit of that, he actually saw the Houses Stark and Karstark as kin irrespective of how closely related the individuals of the two families are.

[maegiithefrog]

Don't forget that the Hooded Man calls Theon a kinslayer too. I took this to mean that he was raised with Bran and Rickon like brothers, so figurative kinslaying. I guess it could apply to the miller's boys, though, if one believe Theon fathered them.

[Winter prince]

1 hour ago, maegiithefrog said:

Don't forget that the Hooded Man calls Theon a kinslayer too. I took this to mean that he was raised with Bran and Rickon like brothers, so figurative kinslaying. I guess it could apply to the miller's boys, though, if one believe Theon fathered them.

I don't think the age of the oldest boy lined up well.  Theon would have had to father the one child at what 12?  I can't imagaine he had the swagger to pull that off.

 

I thought it was related to Bran and Rickon being almost like brothers to him

[maegiithefrog]

On 9/23/2016 at 7:06 PM, Winter prince said:

I don't think the age of the oldest boy lined up well.  Theon would have had to father the one child at what 12?  I can't imagaine he had the swagger to pull that off.

 

I thought it was related to Bran and Rickon being almost like brothers to him

I'm with you   I just thought I'd throw the miller's boys out there because I'd read it previously.

[siyxx]

I think in some case it depends on how the society sees the relationship between the killer and the victim. Like the one mentioned above about Theon, Bran and Rickon. Of course if the two are father and son, then it's pretty much the worst kind of kinslaying. But that doesn't mean the less thicker of the blood, the more acceptable the crime. See the Starks and the Karstarks for example...that has a lot of tracing back to do. Didn't make the Karstarks any less angry about the killing. 

[Lemon of Lemonwood]

On 23/9/2016 at 3:18 AM, Winter prince said:

Maybe it's a situational thing.  Karstark felt he shouldn't have been executed so he accused Robb of kinslaying.  Where Robert and Rhaeger were at open war with each other.

On Robert being not being called a kinslayer, the Targaryen loyalists do call him so. Now, about his subjects, I don't think anyone would risk his wrath by openly calling him so, same as not calling him usurper, at least not openly.

It doesn't negate that he was both things though.

15 minutes ago, siyxx said:

I think in some case it depends on how the society sees the relationship between the killer and the victim. Like the one mentioned above about Theon, Bran and Rickon. Of course if the two are father and son, then it's pretty much the worst kind of kinslaying. But that doesn't mean the less thicker of the blood, the more acceptable the crime. See the Starks and the Karstarks for example...that has a lot of tracing back to do. Didn't make the Karstarks any less angry about the killing. 

Well, apart from the fact that the Karstarks are basically Starks themselves, there has been a Karstark grandmother in the past and both Robb's grandfather and grandmother were her direct descendants (in fact, Alys Karstark was Lyarra's great-grandmother), which for some people,myself included, fortunate enough to know and dearly love their great-grandparents can count as a preety close bond.

But also, as the SSM above said, lord Rickard was trying to save his head too so yes, he was also stretching it a bit and by no means was it as bad as, say, patricide or infanticide.

Oh, speaking of infanticide, there is a very neat theory about why Theon is really called a kinslayer. 

[Land's End]

The synopsis of ASoIaF might be that everyone’s cursed because they are all kin to each other and guilty of kinslaying in some way so the violence gets passed on from one generation to the next.

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 9/23/2016 at 6:37 PM, maegiithefrog said:

Don't forget that the Hooded Man calls Theon a kinslayer too. I took this to mean that he was raised with Bran and Rickon like brothers, so figurative kinslaying. I guess it could apply to the miller's boys, though, if one believe Theon fathered them.

Theon thought of Robb as a brother making Robb's brothers his own. He dreamed of wedding Sansa, becoming their brother and Ned's son in truth. Of course he betrayed Robb and held out that he had murdered his brothers. (False is all he ever was.) Accordingly his former self named him Turncloak and Kinslayer. Theon who had been chastised by his father for naming Robb a brother meekly denied the kinslaying title not because he didn't actually kill the Stark boys but because he was not actually a Stark. But the ghost of his former self knew better.