Bironic Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 3 minutes ago, dariopatke said: So you think she has no slaves at all and she can without any problem continue bussoness as usual if slavery is abolished? Lets be generous and assume it will happen, but people around her arent gonna be that lucky, Volantis will eurupt into chaos if slavery is abolished and she, woman who lives from counting how big risk is and what reward can she get from risking, just doesnt seem like someone who would think everything will be great and people will be happy and everyone will live long and peaceful live with husband/wife and many many healthy children. I do not say if there is so ething more ti her story, all I am saying is that some thing are not clear there. But why would she give her wine and clothes? She tried to kill a man under her roof, see how it went for Sam for far lesser form of agression. Why would she get to drink and clothes for free? What makes you think she didnt do some of those things? We have absolutely no proof that she isnt in slaver coalition. I did not claim she is suppoused to kill Daenerys, only to harm her or her cause somehow since it is likely she will eventually come in her proximity, and if not... well she lost a cup of wine, some clothes and a ship ticket. Those FM thoeries always crack me up, when I hear someone is FM I usually think about one minute about it and dozen reasons that make it impossible come on my mind. Well her business is ship assurances or something along the lines. So yes she can continue her business. Arya kills a guy in a similar business in Braavos, where slavery is abolished. She is quite old, lonesome and rich, people in such a position don't need to be precautios anymore, even if they have been like that for their entire life. Après moi le déluge could very well be her motto, since she doesn't seem to have a family or any other obligations. The widow was expelled by the Volantenes noblemen from the citycentre, because she was a slave. Revenge could be a big part of her motivation to help Daenerys. As could her own experience as a slave be. Also the volantenese noblemen are slavers, while she might be not. Furthermore she seems to be a follower of the red priests and they have officially taken daenerys side. Maybe she is just gentle and nice to Penny? Tyrion is nice to penny as well (most of the times at least) and it's not that he owes her something. He isn't responsible for her brother's death after all. Jorah doesn't mistreat penny, even if she tried to kill Tyrion who was his card to get daenerys favor again. Correct me if I am wrong but didn't Tyrion or Jorah insist tha Penny comes along? Maybe I am messing things up with Tyrion leaving the Slave camp together with her... It's some time ago when I last read Tyrions chapters in ADWD. Yes the FM theories are quite hilarious most of the times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 12 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said: Well put. As usual. Thanks. I just saw you had quoted the same passage... i wonder whats your take on Reznak though. He can´t be the perfumed seneschal, because Dany pointed him as such once. GRRM doesn´t show his cards like that.. does that mean he is loyal? Is he part of the plot to poison dany... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OtherFromAnotherMother Posted September 23, 2016 Author Share Posted September 23, 2016 1 hour ago, dariopatke said: Lets assume it is the ship. We have excluded Tyrion and Moqorro. Jorah would be kinda pointless since she knows not to trust him. Who else do we have that was on ship and that very likely might be near Daenerys in future? Penny. What I never understood is why she was on Selaesori Qhoran in the first place? I mean widow of waterfront sent her but why? Does she need to spy on Daenerys? Kill her? Why would widow like slavery to be abolished, she is slaver herself (yes, she might feel so e sympathy for slaves but that doesnt change the fact that her present and future depend on slaves). Why would Quaithe say two people from the ship then name the ship but really the ship means someone else on the ship? This doesn't make sense. The fact that Quaithe says the perfumed seneschal last is significant. I believe it means that the perfumed seneschal is someone she already knows (the other names listed before are people she has yet to encounter). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OtherFromAnotherMother Posted September 23, 2016 Author Share Posted September 23, 2016 9 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said: I wonder if she'll figure out kraken, dark flame, and lion. Well we know they are right outside her door so if she makes it back to Mereen (which she will) she should figure it out soon enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bironic Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 1 minute ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said: Well we know they are right outside her door so if she makes it back to Mereen (which she will) she should figure it out soon enough. IIRC GRRM once mentioned that Daenerys will only meet Tyrion at the end of TWOW... Lion and Kraken are quite easy to find out, because they follow the same pattern as the sun's son. They describe the family sigil. Dark flame is harder because it's a nickname of Moqorro not his sigil or flag or something. Although she might hear about the nickname and then it's easy. No. Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer’s dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal. A closer look at the warning: First she mentions "things": Glass candles, Pale mare Afterwards she mentions single persons: Kraken (Victarion), dark flame (Moqorro), Lion (Tyrion), Griffin (Jon Connington) sun's son(Quentyn), mummer's dragon(Faegon). Then she mentions the Undying: A group of people. Then she mentions the Perfumed seneschal: A group of people (all those on the Ship). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dariopatke Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 49 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said: I was trying to help you out with your theory that the widow sent a young female dwarf to assassinate the Mother of Dragons. I am sorry, I misunderatood you, it is late where I am and I am half asleep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dariopatke Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 42 minutes ago, Bironic said: Well her business is ship assurances or something along the lines. So yes she can continue her business. Arya kills a guy in a similar business in Braavos, where slavery is abolished. She is quite old, lonesome and rich, people in such a position don't need to be precautios anymore, even if they have been like that for their entire life. Après moi le déluge could very well be her motto, since she doesn't seem to have a family or any other obligations. The widow was expelled by the Volantenes noblemen from the citycentre, because she was a slave. Revenge could be a big part of her motivation to help Daenerys. As could her own experience as a slave be. Also the volantenese noblemen are slavers, while she might be not. Furthermore she seems to be a follower of the red priests and they have officially taken daenerys side. Maybe she is just gentle and nice to Penny? Tyrion is nice to penny as well (most of the times at least) and it's not that he owes her something. He isn't responsible for her brother's death after all. Jorah doesn't mistreat penny, even if she tried to kill Tyrion who was his card to get daenerys favor again. Correct me if I am wrong but didn't Tyrion or Jorah insist tha Penny comes along? Maybe I am messing things up with Tyrion leaving the Slave camp together with her... It's some time ago when I last read Tyrions chapters in ADWD. Yes the FM theories are quite hilarious most of the times. Yes, but slavery is abolished for centuries in Braavos (well it never existed but nvm) but Volantis is different, look at what happened to countries that tried to adapt from socialism to capiralism over night, or countries that from dictatorship suddenly rushed into "democracy". These things take time and when that time is too short chaos eurupts. You may be right here and this is likely option, but certainly not the only one. We do not know much about her, in fact we know very little about her and almost nothing about her character so we can not say how she feels about that. We only have what she said to knight she clearly doesnt like or trust and kinslaying kingalaying dwarf that half of the world wants to kill. Half of tiger faction follow Rhllor and they still wish war and prefer slavery over saviour. And she may feel revenge but she should know that she will suffer, too. Again we do not know enough about her to discuss this. Well, maybe, but Sam almost died for smaller problem in Braavos, it is weird to reqard someone that almost killed your guest, costomer or whatever under your roof. Tyrion has a reason to be nice to her because of his situation, it was kinda expected. I thought I read that at one moment but I could not find it tonight when I was searching those chapters (Tyrion and Jorah insisting), but even if this was true widow likely read them well and she could somehow manipulate them to invite her. 55 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said: Why would Quaithe say two people from the ship then name the ship but really the ship means someone else on the ship? This doesn't make sense. The fact that Quaithe says the perfumed seneschal last is significant. I believe it means that the perfumed seneschal is someone she already knows (the other names listed before are people she has yet to encounter). I actually dont think it is the ship, but if it is Penny seems most plausible to me, I do not know who is seneschal, but I would argue it is Illyrio or maybe even Marwyn. I would also argue that her listening to Quaithe is very wrong but this is story for another time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OtherFromAnotherMother Posted September 23, 2016 Author Share Posted September 23, 2016 39 minutes ago, Bironic said: IIRC GRRM once mentioned that Daenerys will only meet Tyrion at the end of TWOW... Lion and Kraken are quite easy to find out, because they follow the same pattern as the sun's son. They describe the family sigil. Dark flame is harder because it's a nickname of Moqorro not his sigil or flag or something. Although she might hear about the nickname and then it's easy. No. Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer’s dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal. A closer look at the warning: First she mentions "things": Glass candles, Pale mare Afterwards she mentions single persons: Kraken (Victarion), dark flame (Moqorro), Lion (Tyrion), Griffin (Jon Connington) sun's son(Quentyn), mummer's dragon(Faegon). Then she mentions the Undying: A group of people. Then she mentions the Perfumed seneschal: A group of people (all those on the Ship). I think by "Remember the Undying" she is meaning remember what you experienced/learned in the House of the Undying. Not a group of people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OtherFromAnotherMother Posted September 23, 2016 Author Share Posted September 23, 2016 41 minutes ago, Bironic said: IIRC GRRM once mentioned that Daenerys will only meet Tyrion at the end of TWOW... Lion and Kraken are quite easy to find out, because they follow the same pattern as the sun's son. They describe the family sigil. Dark flame is harder because it's a nickname of Moqorro not his sigil or flag or something. Although she might hear about the nickname and then it's easy. No. Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer’s dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal. A closer look at the warning: First she mentions "things": Glass candles, Pale mare Afterwards she mentions single persons: Kraken (Victarion), dark flame (Moqorro), Lion (Tyrion), Griffin (Jon Connington) sun's son(Quentyn), mummer's dragon(Faegon). Then she mentions the Undying: A group of people. Then she mentions the Perfumed seneschal: A group of people (all those on the Ship). Also, is there a source for your Tyrion meeting Dany recollection? I would be interested in reading about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bironic Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 5 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said: Also, is there a source for your Tyrion meeting Dany recollection? I would be interested in reading about this. http://www.ew.com/article/2014/06/26/george-r-r-martin-winds-winter-tease It's tha in the last third of the article. http://nerdalicious.com.au/books/george-r-r-martin-discusses-tyrion-and-daenerys-in-the-upcoming-winds-of-winter-spoilers/ That's what I've found. There are probably better sources if you search more deeply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bironic Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 17 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said: I think by "Remember the Undying" she is meaning remember what you experienced/learned in the House of the Undying. Not a group of people. But she didn't say remember what you experienced in the HOTU. I think she meant how the Undying tried to use her for their own purposes in a similar way that Kraken, dark flame, lion, griffin, sun's son, mummer's dragon and the perfumed seneschal might do in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OtherFromAnotherMother Posted September 24, 2016 Author Share Posted September 24, 2016 43 minutes ago, Bironic said: But she didn't say remember what you experienced in the HOTU. I think she meant how the Undying tried to use her for their own purposes in a similar way that Kraken, dark flame, lion, griffin, sun's son, mummer's dragon and the perfumed seneschal might do in the future. Good point. You could be right. This would also support my belief that she is talking about Illyrio. Illyrio is definitely trying to use Dany. So yeah, you're right! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 2 hours ago, LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse said: Thanks. I just saw you had quoted the same passage... i wonder whats your take on Reznak though. He can´t be the perfumed seneschal, because Dany pointed him as such once. GRRM doesn´t show his cards like that.. does that mean he is loyal? Is he part of the plot to poison dany... I posted my thoughts regarding Reznak on the first page... http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/143708-perfumed-seneschal/&do=findComment&comment=7762928 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 2 hours ago, Bironic said: IIRC GRRM once mentioned that Daenerys will only meet Tyrion at the end of TWOW... Lion and Kraken are quite easy to find out, because they follow the same pattern as the sun's son. They describe the family sigil. Dark flame is harder because it's a nickname of Moqorro not his sigil or flag or something. Although she might hear about the nickname and then it's easy. No. Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer’s dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal. A closer look at the warning: First she mentions "things": Glass candles, Pale mare Afterwards she mentions single persons: Kraken (Victarion), dark flame (Moqorro), Lion (Tyrion), Griffin (Jon Connington) sun's son(Quentyn), mummer's dragon(Faegon). Then she mentions the Undying: A group of people. Then she mentions the Perfumed seneschal: A group of people (all those on the Ship). Daenerys just might recognize Moqorro... Quote They stepped past the eunuch into a pillared courtyard overgrown in pale ivy. Moonlight painted the leaves in shades of bone and silver as the guests drifted among them. Many were Dothraki horselords, big men with red-brown skin, their drooping mustachios bound in metal rings, their black hair oiled and braided and hung with bells. Yet among them moved bravos and sellswords from Pentos and Myr and Tyrosh, a red priest even fatter than Illyrio, hairy men from the Port of Ibben, and lords from the Summer Isles with skin as black as ebony. Daenerys looked at them all in wonder . . . and realized, with a sudden start of fear, that she was the only woman there. Daenerys I, Game 3 Quote Moqorro's voice was a bass drum that seemed to boom from somewhere deep within his massive torso. "We thank you for your sun that keeps us warm, " he prayed. "We thank you for your stars that watch over us as we sail this cold black sea. " A huge man, taller than Ser Jorah and wide enough to make two of him, the priest wore scarlet robes embroidered at sleeve and hem and collar with orange satin flames. Tyrion VIII, Dance 33 Quote The wizard was a monster of a man, as tall as Victarion himself and twice as wide, with a belly like a boulder and a tangle of bone-white hair that grew about his face like a lion's mane. His skin was black. Not the nut brown of the Summer Islanders on their swan ships, nor the red-brown of the Dothraki horselords, nor the charcoal-and-earth color of the dusky woman's skin, but black. Blacker than coal, blacker than jet, blacker than a raven's wing. Burned, Victarion thought, like a man who has been roasted in the flames until his flesh chars and crisps and falls smoking from his bones. The fires that had charred him still danced across his cheeks and forehead, where his eyes peered out from amongst a mask of frozen flames. Slave tattoos, the captain knew. Marks of evil. The Iron Suitor, Dance 56 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 30 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said: Good point. You could be right. This would also support my belief that she is talking about Illyrio. Illyrio is definitely trying to use Dany. So yeah, you're right! He's been using her since before Daenerys I, Game 3. But she still thonks of him as her friend and benefactor. But someday, she will know his treason has been for blood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OtherFromAnotherMother Posted September 24, 2016 Author Share Posted September 24, 2016 Just now, Lost Melnibonean said: He's been using her since before Daenerys I, Game 3. But she still thonks of him as her friend and benefactor. Yes, but she is also doesn't trust him. Dany thinking of him as a friend supports Illyrio as someone she should "beware" of, right? Quaithe telling her to watch out for this guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OtherFromAnotherMother Posted September 24, 2016 Author Share Posted September 24, 2016 13 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said: Daenerys just might recognize Moqorro... Daenerys I, Game 3 Tyrion VIII, Dance 33 The Iron Suitor, Dance 56 Wow! Nice find! Did you know that was in there before today or did you just find that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bironic Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 38 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said: Daenerys just might recognize Moqorro... Daenerys I, Game 3 Tyrion VIII, Dance 33 The Iron Suitor, Dance 56 Nice catch. Never occured to me that she might have seen MOqorro already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 1 hour ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said: Wow! Nice find! Did you know that was in there before today or did you just find that? For a while... and this too... Quote "What are they looking at?" Jhogo rode back to her. "A firemage, Khaleesi." "I want to see." "Then you must." The Dothraki offered a hand down. When she took it, he pulled her up onto his horse and sat her in front of him, where she could see over the heads of the crowd. The firemage had conjured a ladder in the air, a crackling orange ladder of swirling flame that rose unsupported from the floor of the bazaar, reaching toward the high latticed roof. Most of the spectators, she noticed, were not of the city: she saw sailors off trading ships, merchants come by caravan, dusty men out of the red waste, wandering soldiers, craftsmen, slavers. Jhogo, slid one hand about her waist and leaned close. "The Milk Men shun him. Khaleesi, do you see the girl in the felt hat? There, behind the fat priest. She is a" "cutpurse," finished Dany. She was no pampered lady, blind to such things. She had seen cutpurses aplenty in the streets of the Free Cities, during the years she'd spent with her brother, running from the Usurper's hired knives. Daenerys III, Clash So there was a fat priest who was not from Qarth in Qarth soon after Daenerys arrived... ETA This is just possible, not probable or likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balerion's Whiskers Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 I don't think Penny is anything more than what she appears to be. She's a plot device to set Tyrion back on his path to find his humanity. They took her along on the ship because she would have been arrested for the scuffle in the inn. Sometimes a sad little dwarf girl is just that, a sad little dwarf girl. I doubt that she survives very far into the next book. I think the Widow is on Team Dany. The case folks have made for Illryio is compelling and you've convinced me enough to add him to the list of possibilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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