the Stigmata of Melisandre's murder

[MizasterJ]

With the way things are going in the new season,especially with episode 9, I can't help but wonder if Jon Snow's mortality is somehow tethered to Melisandre's.
Things are finally looking better for Sansa, Jon and basically the good guys. They had a major victory, reclaimed there home, took revenge on probably their biggest threat other than the White Walkers...this is all a sign that things are just about to go horribly wrong. Following the rules of gravity that what goes up must come down, such is the narrative of ASOIAF.
So what could possibly happen that could ruin things for Jon and his plans to defend the North from the WWs? Well he could die...again. yes I know the probability of him dying again so soon, has gotta be slim but, when being resurrected, there's always a price. Maybe that price is that Jon's body partially belongs to the Lord of light. Mel speculated last episode that Jon could have been brought back for Any minute purpose. What I theorize comes from Mel's prophecies in the book about "the lord of light made us male & female for a reason." and "there is great power in the connection." This leads me to believe that R'hllor brought back Jon so that he can produce a messiah child.
The mother of this child would also need to be some one very significant, chosen by R'hllor if you will, and perhaps even baptised by fire as a sense of resurrection. Of corse I am speaking of Daenerys. However I believe Mel still has a very important role to play in this, otherwise the Lord would not be keeping her alive. It seems that Mel will need to help conjugate the marriage between Jon & Dany. Also perhaps Melisandre is needed to "bless" the child while in the womb or otherwise. The Child could easily be AA reborn or TPWWP.
However, if man interferes in the lord's plan and exacts his revenge, there will surely be consequences. Im speaking of corse about Davos looking to put an end to the red woman for her unforgivable and unnecessary, burning of Shireen. Futhermore it might very well come down to Jon being asked to execute Melisandre, putting the blame and burden solely on him.
Getting back to the idea that Jon Snow's life is some what tethered to Mel's,I feel as though Mel is a vessel in which the Lord is able to channel his power through and thus keep Jon a float. If Mel were to parish I feel that Jon would begin to suffer. Maybe his wounds would return, fester, burn, or perhaps something more subtle. I would look towards stories such as the 10 commandments as examples of wherein man invokes God's wrath.Think about what happened to Samson when he betrayed God and allowed his hair to be removed, or when Adam and Eve sinned and immediately became embarrassed for the 1st time of their naked bodies. Jon might become estranged, listless, or mentally twisted like patch face.
Whatever the particulars come about, I see the outcome of Mel's fate being crucial to Jon's future. What type of impact do you think Mel's murder would have on the characters?

[Dolorous Gabe]

Well let's not forget that in the show Arya put Melisandre on her list after their meeting and Mel told her they will meet again.

I don't agree that Jon's life is somehow tethered to Mel's but it is an interesting speculation and there would be a terrible irony in Arya murdering Mel with there being some kind of awful side-effect on Jon.

My take on R'hllor is that it isn't real, and the happenings associated with The Lord Of Light are really just misinterpretations of in-world magic. But that's just my interpretation of it.

[Woman of War]

I think Jon's second life is no more than a borrowed one in any case. Anything else would imo be sweet but trivial and sugar coated, sorry and sad to say so.  Jon just can't go on as if nothing had happened, happy ending and all. "You have been dead? Don't be such a pussy, take a shower and get on with life!"

No, Martin would have far too much respect for the enormity of having been dead, for death as ultimate human mystery in philosophy, mythology and religions. I believe he would not allow a character that was dead  to go on as if nothing of significance has happened with him or her. See the changes that happened with Beric and even more so with Lady Stoneheart. If the show went "by the book", then Jon's wounds would stay open like stigmata, he would not age, his hair would not grow and so on. Nothing of all that is a topic in the show but it should be by all story logic. This btw is the reason why Lady Stonheart could not be in the show, too obvious, everyone would have asked the same questions about physical changes in Jon. But all this will, I believe,  be a topic for Martin.  Resurrected Jon won't be a normal young man with scars over his wounds, who ages and before that has a happy family.

So the idea of Jon's life being linked with Melisandre's, as MizasterJ wrote, is clever and very much possible. Sad but one possible story answer to deal with Jon's borrowed life.

[Pink Fat Rast]

On 26.9.2016 at 11:19 AM, Woman of War said:

This btw is the reason why Lady Stonheart could not be in the show, too obvious, everyone would have asked the same questions about physical changes in Jon. But all this will, I believe,  be a topic for Martin.  Resurrected Jon won't be a normal young man with scars over his wounds, who ages and before that has a happy family.

And that's also why Beric wasn't on the show oh wait

[Byfort of Corfe]

11 hours ago, Pink Fat Rast said:

And that's also why Beric wasn't on the show oh wait

I think that Jon's 'resurrection" in the show is a different case from Beric's or from Lady Stoneheart's in the books.  Thoros just seems to "breath" life back into them, Melisandre performed this elaborate ritual and everyone thought that it had failed, except Ghost.  And the reality is that maybe Melisandre didn't have any real effect, maybe it was like the resurrection of Spock in the Star Trek movies, that Jon's essence was somehow in Ghost.

 

On ‎9‎/‎25‎/‎2016 at 7:48 AM, Dolorous Gabe said:

Well let's not forget that in the show Arya put Melisandre on her list after their meeting and Mel told her they will meet again.

I don't agree that Jon's life is somehow tethered to Mel's but it is an interesting speculation and there would be a terrible irony in Arya murdering Mel with there being some kind of awful side-effect on Jon.

My take on R'hllor is that it isn't real, and the happenings associated with The Lord Of Light are really just misinterpretations of in-world magic. But that's just my interpretation of it.

I agree, I get the feeling that this whole "Lord of Light" business as portrayed by the show and GRRM in the books is decidedly evil.  After all Kinvara talks about and Melisandre does human sacrifice and burning non-believers.  I can't see that being the saving theory against the forces of darkness.  this leads me to think that either;

1. There has been a massive misinterpretation of the philosophy behind the religion.
2. The "Lord of Light" is himself Evil and as much a threat to humans as the Forces of Darkness
3. The religion is wholly made up

I do like the idea that things attributed to the Lord of Light are simply misattributions.  Thoros is about the least religious person you will meet this side of Friar Tuck and yet he is much better at bringing Beric back than Mel is with Jon.

[Pink Fat Rast]

It's a bit weird, but Thoros didn't tell her precisely how he did it - so she probably followed a slightly different version of the faith (different denomination, or just different "dialect") and applied a different ritual, thinking it was the same that Thoros had used.

I have a strong feeling that this was simply done for dramatic/cinematic effect, so they can all observe the ritual with nervous anticipation, and then it doesn't look like a plot hole when it takes a few minutes - which, in turn, was done for dramatic effect.

And that the wolf bit was just a little nod to the viewers who thought his spirit had "warged into Ghost" and was gonna return to his body, like Sando pissing in the river - it'd be cool though if it turned out to be a "double red herring" or at the very least the differnent ritual turned out to have caused a "different type of resurrection".



As for the religion, GRRM said he wouldn't be confirming the existence of any "Gods", so I think most probably there is no such Red "God" - at most some kind of less powerful entity or agent that's behind it (like the voices from the weirwood actually aren't the Old Gods but just Bran etc.), or just magic that's attributed to a God.

However, if he WERE real, it's still possible he wouldn't be "as bad as the great other or the LN" - maybe comparable to Yahweh, very harsh and grey, but ultimately good if you're on his side and better than the all-out terror of his adversary.
Then again, the Walkers don't seem as bad as they could be either... so who knows.

[Dolorous Gabe]

1 hour ago, Byfort of Corfe said:

I agree, I get the feeling that this whole "Lord of Light" business as portrayed by the show and GRRM in the books is decidedly evil.  After all Kinvara talks about and Melisandre does human sacrifice and burning non-believers.  I can't see that being the saving theory against the forces of darkness.  this leads me to think that either;

1. There has been a massive misinterpretation of the philosophy behind the religion.
2. The "Lord of Light" is himself Evil and as much a threat to humans as the Forces of Darkness
3. The religion is wholly made up

I do like the idea that things attributed to the Lord of Light are simply misattributions.  Thoros is about the least religious person you will meet this side of Friar Tuck and yet he is much better at bringing Beric back than Mel is with Jon.

There's an element of confirmation bias on my part, since I consider all religions to be man-made anyway, but I think religions develop out of existing cultures via the kind of misattributions we're talking about and I genuinely think Martin developed the religions in his world to suggest this (rather cleverly taking into account the historical presence of magic in the world).

I don't consider the religion of the Lord of Light "evil" though. Maybe some of its followers are bad people, darker shades of grey. I think Martin wanted to use Melisandre as an example of how people might justify their horrifying actions in the name of a good cause and it could be that the religion of R'hllor helps in defeating the Others/WW. If she can help the living defeat the Others/WW, does that justify her horrendous actions? Martin revels in philosophical questions and dilemmas.

Because after all, "there is good and evil on both sides of every war ever fought."

[Pink Fat Rast]

If it was really the kind of God who created everything and controls everything, he'd be kind of a rick considering he could've chosen other options - but probably isn't.

[MizasterJ]

On 4/5/2017 at 9:55 AM, Byfort of Corfe said:

I think that Jon's 'resurrection" in the show is a different case from Beric's or from Lady Stoneheart's in the books.  Thoros just seems to "breath" life back into them, Melisandre performed this elaborate ritual and everyone thought that it had failed, except Ghost.  And the reality is that maybe Melisandre didn't have any real effect, maybe it was like the resurrection of Spock in the Star Trek movies, that Jon's essence was somehow in Ghost.

 

I agree, I get the feeling that this whole "Lord of Light" business as portrayed by the show and GRRM in the books is decidedly evil.  After all Kinvara talks about and Melisandre does human sacrifice and burning non-believers.  I can't see that being the saving theory against the forces of darkness.  this leads me to think that either;

1. There has been a massive misinterpretation of the philosophy behind the religion.
2. The "Lord of Light" is himself Evil and as much a threat to humans as the Forces of Darkness
3. The religion is wholly made up

I do like the idea that things attributed to the Lord of Light are simply misattributions.  Thoros is about the least religious person you will meet this side of Friar Tuck and yet he is much better at bringing Beric back than Mel is with Jon.

 

Yes looking back on it now, and really dwelling on details like Mel & everyone else leaving the room except ghost and Davos, and the fact that the ceremony had no resemblance to what Thoros did to rez Beric, leads me to believe that Mel might of had nothing to do with it, but rather it was some unexplainable phenomenon such as warging would be to the lay person. 

That isn't to say that Mel doesn't have a significant role to play going forward. I'd like to see her be responsible for bringing Jon and Dany together.