Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D: On the fringes of the MCU [Endgame spoilers pg. 19]

[Darth Richard II]

From what I understand Perlmuter or however you spell it is the guy that won't let the shows interact with the films

[felice]

4 hours ago, Corvinus said:

I don't think Flint will hold the Earth together. That's kinda silly.

Unless his powers get amplified by the same thing that makes Quake strong enough to destroy the planet in the first place?

4 hours ago, Corvinus said:

I think the next arc this season will deal with preventing this future from happening.

Probably, but it would be a massive copout, since they've established that knowing the future doesn't allow you to change it, and they appear to remember having travelled into the future in the flashbacks(forwards?) to the early days of the Lighthouse. I find it hard to see how they can unhappen it all in a satisfying manner.

[Annara Snow]

11 hours ago, HokieStone said:

Just binged the last few days and caught up.  I'm not really loving this season - the same dreary indoor sets over and over are tedious.  I'm sort of assuming at this point that the young kid who can meld rocks together will become uber-powerful and meld the Earth back together. 

And...is there any point in pretending this is in the same universe as the movies at this point?  The AOS team has faced enemies far more powerful than Ultron...and yet the Avengers have never stepped in.

I, on the other hand, am greatly enjoying this season, especially episodes 5, 8 and 9. It's so far the best first half season of AoS, IMO (usually AoS seasons get much better towards the end, except for season 2, which I thought was best un the middle part of the season).  The dreary sets are perfect for the dark post-apocalyptic world of the Kree enslaved humans on the destroyed Earth - and come to think of it,  it's a brilliant way to make the reduced budget work for the story. (I assume that will leave more for the rest of the season, when I assume they will go back in time.) 

This Kree have had a very Roman vibe - it reminded me of the fact that Jed & Mo used to work on Spartacus, and we got some of the same themes, like slavery, gladiator fights and revolution.

They've been really good in developing new characters quickly - Enoch is deadpan-hilarious and adorable, the main antagonists, Kasius and Sinara and his family issues were quite interesting in themselves (the title of episides 7 mostly referred to them, didn't it?) - also, someone has compared them to Coulson/May and said that Sinara was "Kasius' May", I love that...and the relationship between May and Robin, though developed in just one episode, was so emotionally affecting (I love the way May came full circle from Bahrain, finally getting to be a mom, and to a little Inhuman girl, no less).

The thing with the time loop is that it has to be broken somehow, otherwise the story would be super-depressing, and would leave no way for the story to continue in the next season, if the show is renewed, not to mention it would completely break the illusion that AoS is happening in the same universe as the rest of MCU. One way it could happen id the multiverse theory, which was mentioned in the last season finale and this season.

As for connections with the movies, the movies are constantly ignoring the TV shows, so I think it's a good thing for AoS that it's not slavishly dependent on the movies and limiting its storylines that way, or trying to shoehorn in a forced tie in like the Age of Ultron one in season 2. At this point, it's clear that movies are practically separate from everything else, Netflix shows are its own universe and only meaningfully connected to each other (The Punisher didn't even have any SciFi elements, you wouldn't even know watching it that it takes place in a universe with Thor and Iron Man), AoS is its own thing at this point and more SciFi than most other Marvel properties, and then there's Runaways - which is supposedly in the MCU, but there's absolutely no way to tell that.

[Corvinus85]

6 hours ago, felice said:

Unless his powers get amplified by the same thing that makes Quake strong enough to destroy the planet in the first place?

Probably, but it would be a massive copout, since they've established that knowing the future doesn't allow you to change it, and they appear to remember having travelled into the future in the flashbacks(forwards?) to the early days of the Lighthouse. I find it hard to see how they can unhappen it all in a satisfying manner.

I don't think they were remembering anything. Since Robyn's mind was so gone, she was seeing past, present, future at the same time, so all those "flashbacks" were for our benefit.

And, really, all they've established is Fitz is adamant about time being fixed, but from the flashbacks, we see May doesn't believe that, so they could go in any direction they choose. Personally, I've always ascribed to the theory that if someone were to go back in time and change a known event, then that would create an alternate timeline, and the time traveler wouldn't be able to go back to the original timeline. That's what I think will happen here. And if Flint goes with them, it may be that this timeline will completely cease to exist.

[Annara Snow]

38 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

I don't think they were remembering anything. Since Robyn's mind was so gone, she was seeing past, present, future at the same time, so all those "flashbacks" were for our benefit.

And, really, all they've established is Fitz is adamant about time being fixed, but from the flashbacks, we see May doesn't believe that, so they could go in any direction they choose. Personally, I've always ascribed to the theory that if someone were to go back in time and change a known event, then that would create an alternate timeline, and the time traveler wouldn't be able to go back to the original timeline. That's what I think will happen here. And if Flint goes with them, it may be that this timeline will completely cease to exist.

They were remembering, because the "flashbacks" were flashbacks from Robin's POV but flashforwards from theirs. It was what happens/has happened/will happen after they go back from 2091 to 2017/18 (probably via the monolith, which Flint is going to put together.) It wasn't about what Robin was seeing. It was about the things they had already seen (in the future).

 

Robin: Flint! Flint!

Elena: There is no Flint! Seriously, she needs to stop talking about people who won't be born for another 50 years.

 

Fitz: ...and every time Jemma dies. They all die. Robin can't change it. Voss couldn't change it. Even Daisy couldn't change it. She saw the aftermath, and she still destroyed the world.

 

Unless they are somehow able to change the outcome. Maybe by creating an alternative timeline. But in that case, the destruction still happened to humanity and all the bad things still happened to everyone in one of the parallel universes/timelines, right? So it's not like they are really "fixing" things... more like, the best they can hope for is creating one version of events that's not as terrible as what they've seen in the future?

 

[Corvinus85]

24 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

They were remembering, because the "flashbacks" were flashbacks from Robin's POV but flashforwards from theirs. It was what happens/has happened/will happen after they go back from 2091 to 2017/18 (probably via the monolith, which Flint is going to put together.) It wasn't about what Robin was seeing. It was about the things they had already seen (in the future).

 

Robin: Flint! Flint!

Elena: There is no Flint! Seriously, she needs to stop talking about people who won't be born for another 50 years.

 

Fitz: ...and every time Jemma dies. They all die. Robin can't change it. Voss couldn't change it. Even Daisy couldn't change it. She saw the aftermath, and she still destroyed the world.

 

Unless they are somehow able to change the outcome. Maybe by creating an alternative timeline. But in that case, the destruction still happened to humanity and all the bad things still happened to everyone in one of the parallel universes/timelines, right? So it's not like they are really "fixing" things... more like, the best they can hope for is creating one version of events that's not as terrible as what they've seen in the future?

 

In the context of that episode, the flashbacks were for the viewer's benefit. They were not remembering something they never experienced, since they had been taken into the future. They may experience them if the time loop repeats. But I do believe an alternate timeline is what is going to happen. And yes, in that case, the original timeline could become an alternate, or it could cease to exist.

[Annara Snow]

2 hours ago, Corvinus said:

In the context of that episode, the flashbacks were for the viewer's benefit. They were not remembering something they never experienced, since they had been taken into the future. They may experience them if the time loop repeats. But I do believe an alternate timeline is what is going to happen. And yes, in that case, the original timeline could become an alternate, or it could cease to exist.

It was a bit confusing what you meant by "they weren't remembering". The characters in 2091 weren't remembering it, since none of them had lived it yet - other than Robin, who had. For her, those were memories (at least most of them, I don't remember if she was present in all of the scenes). Unlike the scenes from the future she was seeing in 2017/2018/2022, which were flashes from the future due to her gift.But their "future" (from their POV) selves in 2018/2022 were remembering all the things from 2091 (like Flint, Voss trying to change the past, the destroyed Earth), since they had lived it already in the previous period of their lives. Those scenes were flashbacks from Robin's POV, and flashforwards from everyone else's. 

Is there really such a thing as "repeating" in this kind of setup? What comes before, and what comes later?

Anyway, if there are parallel universes/alternative universes, I don't see how "the original timeline" could "cease to exist". That would mean that you can in fact change time, and it would not be about multiverse and parallel universes. If there are parallel universes, then everything that happened is still happening, it's just that something else is also happening at the same time.

(Why do people keep saying "alternate universe/timeline"? That would mean that there are universes or timelines happening successively, one right after the other, while "alternative universe" means the same as "parallel universe".)

[Corvinus85]

2 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

Anyway, if there are parallel universes/alternative universes, I don't see how "the original timeline" could "cease to exist". That would mean that you can in fact change time, and it would not be about multiverse and parallel universes. If there are parallel universes, then everything that happened is still happening, it's just that something else is also happening at the same time.

(Why do people keep saying "alternate universe/timeline"? That would mean that there are universes or timelines happening successively, one right after the other, while "alternative universe" means the same as "parallel universe".)

I don't know the details of the multi-verse theory, and to be fair, I don't if this would apply when we talk about alternate timelines, but there is the idea that there is an infinite number of universes with pretty much everything that could have happened, existing in parallel in a separate universe.

Now, as to the idea that a timeline could exist alternatively, or that it could cease to exist, here is how I see it (and I could totally be wrong about this):

Timeline 1: Daisy destroys the Earth

Timeline 2: Daisy received a message from the future telling her how to avoid destroy the Earth, and she doesn't destroy the Earth. Daisy continues on with her life in this timeline.

Both timelines could exist in parallel, I think.

Other scenario:

Timeline 1: Daisy destroys the Earth. However, afterwards she travels back in time to stop herself from doing it.

Timeline 2: Daisy has traveled back in time, and did not destroy the Earth. Timeline 1 can no longer exist, because that Daisy is now in Timeline 2.

[felice]

5 hours ago, Corvinus said:

And, really, all they've established is Fitz is adamant about time being fixed, but from the flashbacks, we see May doesn't believe that, so they could go in any direction they choose.

May's belief isn't particularly strong evidence of anything, compared with Fitz's understanding of the science and the fact we've had two previous multi-story arcs involving inhuman precogs seeing the future and not being able to change it (Raina and Robin's father).

[Vels]

Any thoughts on the prophet that Kasius mentioned?

My thoughts

Spoiler

He captured Yo-Yo in the past when she tried to assassinate him (from the flashback episode). He has been keeping her alive and interrogating her about what she did in the future

 

[divica]

Just now, Vels said:

Any thoughts on the prophet that Kasius mentioned?

My thoughts

  Hide contents

He captured Yo-Yo in the past when she tried to assassinate him (from the flashback episode). He has been keeping her alive and interrogating her about what she did in the future

 

Quote

She would be too old. You have to add 15 years to the age of the girl prophet in the future.

She would be so old she wouldn t remembre a thing...

However as kree can bring people back to life maybe they can extend people's lifespans... Then everybody could be the phrophet...

 

[divica]

3 hours ago, felice said:

May's belief isn't particularly strong evidence of anything, compared with Fitz's understanding of the science and the fact we've had two previous multi-story arcs involving inhuman precogs seeing the future and not being able to change it (Raina and Robin's father).

I think they will use some paradox to rewrite the past.

With a paradox time would probably stop being linear so things can be changed... And it makes the situation diferent from the ones you told...

[Annara Snow]

Like I said - they have to find a way to change it, otherwise 1) the story is extremely depressing, and 2) they would have nowhere to go from there (and there is already talk about season 6 renewal being likely).

[PetyrPunkinhead]

My guess is Infinity War is gonna cause a "reboot" of the MCU. That's how the time loop wil stop and the alternate timeline of this season cease. 

Overall, I've really liked these past two "alternate reality" story arcs with the Framework and Kree/2091. If Marvel Studios remains dead set on keeping the films & TV charcaters separate then I'm glad SHIELD is taking more of a "what if" approach to the show. 

[The BlackBear]

If all this is cleared up by the films, I'll be very annoyed.

But I'd actually be very surprised if they even have a vague knowledge what's happening in Infinity War.

[DaveSumm]

I’m always amazed how often I see talk of a reboot to the whole thing. Why? It’s been the most successful building of a shared universe on the big screen (and little, probably) ever. I don’t see why they’d just scrap it now to start again. I certainly concede that it’s become so large that they’ll have to kill off a few people in Infinity War, make things more manageable. But Phase 4 onward, letting what used to be lesser known heroes shine ... an Avengers with Black Panther, Spider-Man, Wasp, an Iron Man successor, Bucky as a Cap successor, take your pick. I’d be thrilled if they had a grand Phase 4-5-6 plot to mirror the Infinity Stones of 1-2-3.

As to alternate universes (and I haven’t seen the most recent two episodes, apologies if this has been proved false), I wouldn’t be surprised if they one day realign just AoS. Maybe they fuck with the timeline, end up in a different one where there was never an Iron Man and there’s no heroes. Or maybe somehow fudge things so that Coulson was never resurrected? Leave the MCU with it’s (let’s be honest, better) version of Coulson having died in The Avengers and carry on in another universe/timeline.

[Annara Snow]

On 10.2.2018. at 0:46 PM, PetyrPunkinhead said:

My guess is Infinity War is gonna cause a "reboot" of the MCU. That's how the time loop wil stop and the alternate timeline of this season cease. 

Overall, I've really liked these past two "alternate reality" story arcs with the Framework and Kree/2091. If Marvel Studios remains dead set on keeping the films & TV charcaters separate then I'm glad SHIELD is taking more of a "what if" approach to the show. 

Not gonna happen. The show has become less and less connected to the movies as it went on, season 4 "ties" to the movies could barely be even called that. It sure as hell isn't going to have its storyline resolved by the movies - that would be a terrible idea and they never did it even in season 1, when the show really was connected to the movies.

[Annara Snow]

36 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

I’m always amazed how often I see talk of a reboot to the whole thing. Why? It’s been the most successful building of a shared universe on the big screen (and little, probably) ever. I don’t see why they’d just scrap it now to start again. I certainly concede that it’s become so large that they’ll have to kill off a few people in Infinity War, make things more manageable. But Phase 4 onward, letting what used to be lesser known heroes shine ... an Avengers with Black Panther, Spider-Man, Wasp, an Iron Man successor, Bucky as a Cap successor, take your pick. I’d be thrilled if they had a grand Phase 4-5-6 plot to mirror the Infinity Stones of 1-2-3.

As to alternate universes (and I haven’t seen the most recent two episodes, apologies if this has been proved false), I wouldn’t be surprised if they one day realign just AoS. Maybe they fuck with the timeline, end up in a different one where there was never an Iron Man and there’s no heroes. Or maybe somehow fudge things so that Coulson was never resurrected? Leave the MCU with it’s (let’s be honest, better) version of Coulson having died in The Avengers and carry on in another universe/timeline.

The existence of AUs is just a fan speculation at this point.

Are you seriously suggesting that they would reboot AoS universe and erase all storylines the show has had in 5 seasons?! That's an even worse idea than having the story resolved in the movies. It makes no sense and they aren't even going to entertain the idea of doing that.

[DaveSumm]

1 hour ago, Annara Snow said:

Are you seriously suggesting that they would reboot AoS universe and erase all storylines the show has had in 5 seasons?! That's an even worse idea than having the story resolved in the movies. It makes no sense and they aren't even going to entertain the idea of doing that.

No, just that they could gracefully remove themselves from the MCU. The characters would retain all memories of all events. Something along the lines of them going back in time and preventing Coulsons resurrection, or going back and preventing Shield’s creation at all. Basically just a permanent version of what they attempted with this season; they obviously felt jumping to another time was easier than trying to co-exist with the rest of the MCU, the films don’t have squat to say about 2091 so there’s no potential inconsistencies.

...kinda like how Supergirl is in the same multiverse but not universe as Arrow, it gives them room to breathe but the ability to crossover if needed. AoS could be in the MCM, not the MCU.

[Annara Snow]

47 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

No, just that they could gracefully remove themselves from the MCU. The characters would retain all memories of all events. Something along the lines of them going back in time and preventing Coulsons resurrection, or going back and preventing Shield’s creation at all. Basically just a permanent version of what they attempted with this season; they obviously felt jumping to another time was easier than trying to co-exist with the rest of the MCU, the films don’t have squat to say about 2091 so there’s no potential inconsistencies.

...kinda like how Supergirl is in the same multiverse but not universe as Arrow, it gives them room to breathe but the ability to crossover if needed. AoS could be in the MCM, not the MCU.

Why would they want to prevent either of those things? And if there was no SHIELD, what would the show even be about?

If going back in time and changing things were established as something you can normally do with no circumstances, there are so many other things they should rather want to prevent - the Holocaust, other genocides, wars, natural disasters and so on. And once you can go that road, it's a slippery slope, and you have to make the entire show about that - like another Legends of Tomorrow.

The show has already done the "what would happen if we tried to fix our biggest regrets?" arc, and shown that this usually doesn't work out, and you can never predict how things would turn out.