Mellisandre's Mortality

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

I have always been bothered by this excerpt from Mellisandre's chapter in DwD. 

Quote

Food. Yes, I should eat. Some days she forgot. R'hllor provided her with all the nourishment her body needed, but that was something best concealed from mortal men.

Does Mellisandre think of herself as immortal? Is she immortal? What significance, if any, does her ruby play here?

She is obviously able to withstand extremely cold temperatures like it's no big deal. She drank Cressen's poison and lived. Thoros has some abilities related to immortality as well.

We also have this excerpt from John I in DwD.

Quote

"Are your fires never wrong?"

"Never … though we priests are mortal and sometimes err, mistaking this must come for this may come."

Jon could feel her heat, even through his wool and boiled leather. The sight of them arm in arm was drawing curious looks. They will be whispering in the barracks tonight. "If you can truly see the morrow in your flames, tell me when and where the next wildling attack will come." He slipped his arm free.

So she tells Jon that she (and other red priests) are mortal. Is she lying to John? 

My thoughts are that there is a certain immortality to her, probably related to the ruby. 

I also find Moqorro's description of Euron's horn interesting here as well. 

Quote

"A true tale." Moqorro turned the hellhorn, examining the queer letters that crawled across a second of the golden bands. "Here it says, 'No mortal man shall sound me and live.' "

Related?

[aryagonnakill#2]

I and many others believe she is a fire wight like Beric.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

41 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I and many others believe she is a fire wight like Beric.

This idea is new to me. If you have time could you elaborate? 

[Curled Finger]

I've been working on a topic closely related to this.  I'm certain Mel is a fire wight and suspect Victarion Greyjoy is as well.  When you look at the resurrected dead as opposed to reanimated dead (this is how I'm beginning to discern between fire and ice zombies) there are differences.  This fire imbued life seems to be more lively than our garden variety ice wight.  Mel has other sorcerers skills too, being a shadow binder from Asshai.  Maybe all her magic is stronger at the wall as she says. It's clear she is not an average Red Priestess or human woman.   She can't just tell Jon what she is he would be horrified.  She's got to promote her special faith to everyone, Jon in particular as her host.  So yeah I think she's lying about her life status.  I guess it could be self preservation in not wanting to be outed as a dead among us but all these lies can't be good for the humans.  

[Clegane'sPup]

For some reason that I do not understand, Mel thinks Stannis is Azor Ahai reborn. Truth be told I’m not sure who Azor Ahai was or what importance Azor Ahai has to play in Mel’s plan.

DwD c.31 Three tallow candles burned upon her windowsill to keep the terrors of the night at bay. Four more flickered beside her bed, two to either side. In the hearth a fire was kept burning day and night. The first lesson those who would serve her had to learn was that the fire must never, ever be allowed to go out.

The red priestess closed her eyes and said a prayer, then opened them once more to face the hearthfire. One more time. She had to be certain. Many a priest and priestess before her had been brought down by false visions, by seeing what they wished to see instead of what the Lord of Light had sent.

Stannis was marching south into peril, the king who carried the fate of the world upon his shoulders, Azor Ahai reborn. Surely R'hllor would vouchsafe her a glimpse of what awaited him. Show me Stannis, Lord, she prayed. Show me your king, your instrument.

Visions danced before her, gold and scarlet, flickering, forming and melting and dissolving into one another, shapes strange and terrifying and seductive. She saw the eyeless faces again, staring out at her from sockets weeping blood. Then the towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them, rising from the depths. Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist, bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing. Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky.

I’ve got this cryptic vision mentioned above along with the mention of false visions. My problem is I don’t have the faintest idea why Mel went to Dragonstone in the first place. She converted Stannis’ wife. She patiently waited for Stannis to return to Dragonstone. Once Stannis returned to Dragonstone yada yada she seemed to be sucking the life out of him to make those two shadow babies; as per Davos’ remark that Stannis seemed to age 10 years.

Back to the Wall with Mel looking into her fire. If someone can make sense of this shite, hallelujah:

A face took shape within the hearth. Stannis? she thought, for just a moment … but no, these were not his features. A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf's face threw back his head and howled.

The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her. Shimmers of heat traced patterns on her skin, insistent as a lover's hand. Strange voices called to her from days long past. "Melony," she heard a woman cry. A man's voice called, "Lot Seven." She was weeping, and her tears were flame. And still she drank it in.

I understand the reference to the wooden face, the thousand eyes and the boy with the wolf face. Seems to mean Bloodraven and Bran. What I don’t comprehend is why Mel sought out Stannis to begin with. Add into that when Mel visited Davos in the dungeon:

SoS c.25  Do you think I crossed half the world to put yet another vain king on yet another empty throne? The war has been waged since time began, and before it is done, all men must choose where they will stand. On one side is R'hllor, the Lord of Light, the Heart of Fire, the God of Flame and Shadow. Against him stands the Great Other whose name may not be spoken, the Lord of Darkness, the Soul of Ice, the God of Night and Terror. Ours is not a choice between Baratheon and Lannister, between Greyjoy and Stark. It is death we choose, or life. Darkness, or light." She clasped the bars of his cell with her slender white hands. The great ruby at her throat seemed to pulse with its own radiance. "So tell me, Ser Davos Seaworth, and tell me truly—does your heart burn with the shining light of R'hllor? Or is it black and cold and full of worms?" She reached through the bars and laid three fingers upon his breast, as if to feel the truth of him through flesh and wool and leather.

[cgrav]

 Certainly she thought Stannis was her guy, but she is clearly still subservient to whatever R'hllor chooses to show her. I would guess then that the fires showed her something that pointed strongly to Stannis, even if only as a means of ending up with Jon Snow. 

Stannis may just be a pawn of R'hllor, performing some task as a prerequisite for AA's actual return. 

Mel's infiltration of Stannis bedchamber took a while, and since he's enthralled by her at the beginning of Clash, she probably met Selyse before the beginning of the series. Jon at that time was like 14 and still at Winterfell. No way she could have gained his favor in that situation, let alone declared him AA.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

2 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

For some reason that I do not understand, Mel thinks Stannis is Azor Ahai reborn. Truth be told I’m not sure who Azor Ahai was or what importance Azor Ahai has to play in Mel’s plan.

 

I think Mel views Stannis as a tool for her agenda. 

Quote

The red priestess closed her eyes and said a prayer, then opened them once more to face the hearthfire. One more time. She had to be certain. Many a priest and priestess before her had been brought down by false visions, by seeing what they wished to see instead of what the Lord of Light had sent. Stannis was marching south into peril, the king who carried the fate of the world upon his shoulders, Azor Ahai reborn. Surely R'hllor would vouchsafe her a glimpse of what awaited him. Show me Stannis, Lord, she prayed. Show me your king, your instrument.

She wants to believe he is Azor Ahai reborn, but I can't imagine she is convinced. I think she displays conviction so others won't doubt, while she herself isn't convinced. 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

Can anyone elaborate on the fire wight idea for me?

[aryagonnakill#2]

2 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I’ve got this cryptic vision mentioned above along with the mention of false visions. My problem is I don’t have the faintest idea why Mel went to Dragonstone in the first place. She converted Stannis’ wife. She patiently waited for Stannis to return to Dragonstone. Once Stannis returned to Dragonstone yada yada she seemed to be sucking the life out of him to make those two shadow babies; as per Davos’ remark that Stannis seemed to age 10 years.

I understand the reference to the wooden face, the thousand eyes and the boy with the wolf face. Seems to mean Bloodraven and Bran. What I don’t comprehend is why Mel sought out Stannis to begin with. Add into that when Mel visited Davos in the dungeon:

 

I'm pretty sure that at some point Mel identifies Dragonstone as the place of salt and smoke, and that is why she go's there.  That is her starting point and since Stannis is lord of Dragonstone and a warrior, she assumes it is him.

[aryagonnakill#2]

16 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Can anyone elaborate on the fire wight idea for me?

Beric Dondarion dies 7 times, the first 6 times he was brought back to life by Thoros of Myr using Red Priest magic which he calls breathing fire into him, and after which Berics blood burns. His 7th death was him breathing this fire into Catlyn.  This can only be called fire magic.

Separately the dead people who are raised by the WW's are called wights, so a person raised by fire magic is simply being referred to as a fire wight.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

58 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Beric Dondarion dies 7 times, the first 6 times he was brought back to life by Thoros of Myr using Red Priest magic which he calls breathing fire into him, and after which Berics blood burns. His 7th death was him breathing this fire into Catlyn.  This can only be called fire magic.

Separately the dead people who are raised by the WW's are called wights, so a person raised by fire magic is simply being referred to as a fire wight.

Yes, I know all this. 

I guess I needed to be more specific. Is there any textual evidence of her being a "fire wight" as you proposed in your earlier post? I'm looking for information about why you have come to this as a possible explanation for Mellisandre'sperceived powers, abilities, and possible immortality.

[Curled Finger]

Now you're getting into my next territory.  Beric bleeds black.  Mel bleeds black.  Vic's hand turns black.  There are 2 other characters with black blood but best to leave them out.  Neither Beric nor mel sleep or eat.  Beric's black blood lights swords aflame.  I wonder if Mel's black blood aids her in her aspirations as a shadow binder.  They both exhibit curious behaviors for normal living beings. 

[Seams]

1 hour ago, cgrav said:

 Certainly she thought Stannis was her guy, but she is clearly still subservient to whatever R'hllor chooses to show her. I would guess then that the fires showed her something that pointed strongly to Stannis, even if only as a means of ending up with Jon Snow. 

Stannis may just be a pawn of R'hllor, performing some task as a prerequisite for AA's actual return. 

Mel's infiltration of Stannis bedchamber took a while, and since he's enthralled by her at the beginning of Clash, she probably met Selyse before the beginning of the series. Jon at that time was like 14 and still at Winterfell. No way she could have gained his favor in that situation, let alone declared him AA.

These thoughts (highlighted) are exactly what I've been thinking recently. What if Stannis is actually Nissa Nissa? The name Stannis is sort of an echo of the name from the legend. Stannis and his wife aren't passionate about each other, but Melisandre is crazy about him. What if she has to drive a sword into his heart in order to create Lightbringer and to position AA for his heroic work?

The thing that got me thinking along these lines was a re-read of a Theon excerpt from ADwD where he repeats the name Stannis. When you look at the larger passage, it begins with a moan, which seems like the sound Nissa Nissa made when she sacrificed herself. This moan is so profound, it makes men fall silent. Then there's a drum, which sounds like a beating heart and then everyone repeats the name of Stannis:

Then he heard the horn.

A long low moan, it seemed to hang above the battlements, lingering in the black air, soaking deep into the bones of every man who heard it. All along the castle walls, sentries turned toward the sound, their hands tightening around the shafts of their spears. In the ruined halls and keeps of Winterfell, lords hushed other lords, horses nickered, and sleepers stirred in their dark corners. No sooner had the sound of the warhorn died away than a drum began to beat: BOOM doom BOOM doom BOOM doom. And a name passed from the lips of each man to the next, written in small white puffs of breath. Stannis, they whispered, Stannis is here, Stannis is come, Stannis, Stannis, Stannis.

(ADwD, A Ghost in Winterfell)

There are other little hints that may or may not be relevant. A line from Tywin had always bothered me - he uses the term "fool's jabber" to refer to the talk of Stannis having the sword Lightbringer. "Jabber" doesn't sound like a word Tywin would use. But it makes sense suddenly if you realize GRRM is giving us some foreshadowing using a pun that indicates Stannis will be jabbed with a magic sword. A reference here to the death of Stannis by sword also fits with an off-the-wall theory I have held onto about Tywin killing Joffrey with a magic sword at the wedding feast.

"With this fool's jabber of Stannis and his magic sword, it seemed to me that we had best give Joffrey something extraordinary as well. A king should bear a kingly weapon."

(ASoS, Tyrion IV)

Here's a thought: Azor Ahai is supposed to temper his sword twice before he gets it right on the third try. I think there is a link between the sword Ice and Melisandre's shadow baby and Jon Snow - all three are weapons that are "born" in front of important witnesses. What if the death of Renly represents AA plunging the "sword" into water - when Catelyn describes Renly's special green armor, she sees a reflection of herself, apparently drowning. Joffrey's death is the death of the lion. The third death, Nissa Nissa, would be the death of King Stannis.

I skimmed the search site to look for other places where the name Stannis is repeated, hoping to find allusions to a Nissa Nissa role for Stannis. There are places where his bannermen and army chant his name, but these two excerpts seemed most relevant to the idea of a prophetic role for Stannis Stannis:

The prophecy . . . my brother's dream . . . Lady Melisandre has misread the signs. Stannis . . . Stannis has some of the dragon blood in him, yes. His brothers did as well. Rhaelle, Egg's little girl, she was how they came by it . . . their father's mother . . .

(AFfC, Samwell IV)

it stood to reason that Wyman Manderly should declare for Stannis. White Harbor cannot stand alone. The city needs an ally, a protector. Lord Wyman needs King Stannis as much as Stannis needs him.

(ADwD, Davos II)

I wonder if Aemon's reference to Rhaelle is an allusion to R'hllor? Aemon doesn't say that Melisandre is completely wrong, he just says she has misread the signs. I think GRRM is having some fun with a Nissa Nissa hint here, giving us the Stannis Stannis clue. The Davos excerpt shows Davos steadfast in his loyalty, but I think there may be literary irony here, too, and a Nissa Nissa / Stannis Stannis hint.

I apologize if this is too much of a departure from the OP. I do think either Melisandre or possibly Davos would be the likely person to stab Stannis, since they are the only people who care deeply about him as a human being, now that Cressen is dead.

[Lord Lannister]

She has no moral objection at burning people alive, so I don't think lying would be anything of a surprise.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

59 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Now you're getting into my next territory.  Beric bleeds black.  Mel bleeds black.  Vic's hand turns black.  There are 2 other characters with black blood but best to leave them out.  Neither Beric nor mel sleep or eat.  Beric's black blood lights swords aflame.  I wonder if Mel's black blood aids her in her aspirations as a shadow binder.  They both exhibit curious behaviors for normal living beings. 

Where do we see Mel bleed black? 

[Curled Finger]

34 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Where do we see Mel bleed black? 

When she births her shadow babies and in her POV in Dance.   I will get my topic going maybe it will help with some of your questions. Mel is a fascinating topic.   

[Curled Finger]

I had trouble locating the quote, but here it is from Mel's POV in ADWD...

The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her. Shimmers of heat traced patterns on her skin, insistent as a lover's hand. Strange voices called to her from days long past.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Now you're getting into my next territory.  Beric bleeds black.  Mel bleeds black.  Vic's hand turns black.  There are 2 other characters with black blood but best to leave them out.  Neither Beric nor mel sleep or eat.  Beric's black blood lights swords aflame.  I wonder if Mel's black blood aids her in her aspirations as a shadow binder.  They both exhibit curious behaviors for normal living beings. 

Is Khal Drogo one of your characters with black blood? 

[Curled Finger]

No but I will take him!   Thanks for the tip.   My other guys are Coldhands and Gregor Clegane.    I posted the topic so have at it if you've got any leads at all!   

[spauldo17]

11 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I had trouble locating the quote, but here it is from Mel's POV in ADWD...

The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her. Shimmers of heat traced patterns on her skin, insistent as a lover's hand. Strange voices called to her from days long past.

Is this from when she birthed the shadow demon?  If so, this doesn't seem like it's her normal blood trickling down, but rather remnants of the dark magic she had just performed.