Decay of the Brotherhood Without Banners?

[Aenarion]

Reading through the series again (cause what else will I do in a quiet ER at 4am for weeks at a time? ), one detail caught my eye: 

When Brienne sees the Brotherhood Without Banners they are . . . changed. Lem is noted to have rotting teeth (never mentioned before), and seems far more . . . vicious than he did. The brotherhood is no longer gentle with its prisoners, and acts much more like vicious broken men. The Brotherhood is much more merciless now, and has lost its honor (the episode with Merret Frey being a clear indicator). It seems that ever since Dondarrion revived Lady Stoneheart, the BWB has been on a moral decay. . . which we are given physical descriptions of through the POV characters. 

 

Thoros seems distraught by how far the brotherhood has fallen, but he seems to be alone (though maybe Gendry is to a degree, which is why he now smiths at the Inn).  

 

So, 
Do you think that the BWB has undergone a moral decay as a direct result of Lady Stoneheart's cruel leadership? And if so, do  you think that it is accompanied by actual physical decay or merely described that way by the author (drawing the eye to physical decay, rusting weapons/armor, etc) to drive home that they are falling? 

Further more, 
Can they still be redeemed? If so, under whose leadership? Will Brynden Tully take over, and promise to bring Justice to the Riverlands again (bringing the Freys to account for their actions, for example) and restore the King's Peace? Is there another character that will drive this (e.g. Jamie, Brienne, or Gendry somehow taking command and turning the Brotherhood back into the righteous force that it seemed to be under Dondarrion)? Or perhaps a new character will rise to curb the Brotherhood, and return it to the righteous path? 

[Curled Finger]

Hey nice discussion piece here.   I too recently reread AFFC with particular attention paid to Brienne's last 5 chapters.   I'm not so sure of the BWB's moral decay as much as the mission statement of these BWB having changed.   Beric's deal was justice much to most of the BWB's delight.  It seems to me that some of them have taken LSH on as a leader and follow suit in their reactions to her commands.  NOt unlike their behaviors with Beric.   Thoros strikes me as distraught over the changes.   He never wanted Cat revived in the 1st place.   I think he was all in on the Justice Train.   It gave him purpose and I think it brought him closer to his faith.   This thing LSH is gives him zero opportunity for spiritual growth, but I'm not counting old Thoros out yet.    As to Lem's decline, isn't he the one wearing the now presumably cursed Hound's Helm?  Lot's of spooky weird going on with the remnants of our original BWB.   But I'm looking forward to seeing if Tom O Sevens had anything to do with Blackfish's escape and what Greenbeard and Ned Dayne have got up to.   I get the feeling Thoros is more or less keeping an eye on LSH so she doesn't get out of control.    Her Frey hangings are understandable.   Those rat bastards killed her son, his army, his wolf and her.   I'd be mad too.   It doesn't make it OK for her to run amock though and I think Thoros is keeping her in some sort of check without actually controlling her.   Maybe.   She's got more on her mind than just killing Freys and it's clear there are factions of the BWB network still very active in the Riverlands.   To answer your question about redemption, I'm not convinced they need redemption as much as they need strong focused leadership.   They were always brutal men, but they were brutal in justice's name, not vengeance.  Therein may lie the difference.  They do appear to be more bloodthirsty with LSH, but all she's got them doing is collecting her enemies for execution.    That would change any man, I'm sure.   

[Minstral]

Even when Beric is alive we get the notion that they are at times constrained thugs, but they are kept in line while he is alive. The letters they hand is for money that will never be paid back.  Early in ASOS Briene and Jaime stay at an inn and take a different road the inn keep suggests and then Arya's chapter comes along and we they were being setup for an ambush. And to single out Lem specifically here, he threatens another man with violence in his home when he objects to them praying to Rhollor. They are rough people from their introduction with a semblance of organization and alliances with small towns and refugee camps. When the recruit amongst the refugees they will undoubtedly recruit a number of brigands and raiders. Thoros's silence and the absence of Beric's moderating voice/leadership they lose what keeps these factors in check.

[Ser Scott Malkinson]

7 hours ago, Aenarion said:

Thoros seems distraught by how far the brotherhood has fallen, but he seems to be alone (though maybe Gendry is to a degree, which is why he now smiths at the Inn).

We also don't know where Ned Dayne, Anguy and Greenbeard are with the other half of the BwB. Maybe they split off because they disagreed with Stoneheart's new MO. Or maybe they are on a separate mission still working for her. What I find interesting is that the appendix of Feast has (slightly) separated them from the rest of the Brotherhood, with (the now dead) Beric on their side, possibly indicating they are still following Beric's way to some degree. But this is of course just a lot of speculation based on almost nothing.

[David Selig]

Where does this fantasy comes from that the BWB were ever "gentle" with prisoners and not merciless?

Quote

"Would he hang him, Lem?" one of the village women asked. "It'd be half a shame to hang a man as pretty as that one."

"A trial first!" said Anguy. "Lord Beric always gives them a trial, you know that." He smiled. "Then he hangs them."

There was laughter all around.

 

[Ser Scott Malkinson]

40 minutes ago, David Selig said:

Where does this fantasy comes from that the BWB were ever "gentle" with prisoners and not merciless?

 

Well... at least they used to get a trial...

But under Beric, at least their cause was noble: defend the smallfolk from the ravages of this war. Now their aim seems to be hanging Freys.

[sweetsunray]

9 minutes ago, David Selig said:

Where does this fantasy comes from that the BWB were ever "gentle" with prisoners and not merciless?

 

Agreed. The bowmen that shoot at Brienne, Jaime in shackles and Cleos Frey were BwB as well, just a different cell.

It is best to not only re-read Brienne's chapter about the BwB, but for example also the chapter with Sandor's trial. The way that trial starts... They all lay dead people at his feet, people his brother's men or the mummers killed, just a list of names, and they intended to hang him by association. Beric was not stopping it. It's pretty clear that this is the usual MO. It's only because Sandor calls Beric a hypocrite that the mood alters and he gets a combat trial out of it. Sandor's trial was the exception, not the norm.

One must be very aware whose POV you're reading. The focus is somewhat different, and Tom, Anguy and Lem pretend to be "friends" to get them to the inn. We never fully learn the outcome of Arya's offer for the skiff, but the men laughing as well as Sharna, etc says enough. There would be no exchange. The BwB is somewhat romanticised in Arya's chapters. But I don't see an actual change in their MO at all when it comes to holdnig trials. But Merret's and Brienne's chapter shows them from a hanging victim's POV, which we knew was never going to happen to Arya. 

But yeah, Lem's teeth are interesting in that regard. 

Arya: "He had bad teeth"; Merret: "with crooked green teeth"; Brienne: "His teeth were awful; crooked, and streaked brown with rot."

I don't think they decayed that significantly more. Arya's description is just too imprecise. POVs are not objective OP. One character notices one thing more than the other. Arya focuses much more on his broken nose (she broke it after all) and his cloak.

As for stealing armor of the dead. They always did this. No reason to keep good steel hanging or lying about. There's even a moment where Arya notices the BwB searching pockets IIRC. But Brienne doesn't have an ear for sarcasm, irony and mockery. Thoros berating Lem over "is that what we've become now" (paraphrasing) can be read as a charade that Thoros plays in front of Brienne, and it goes completely over Brienne's head. She takes Thoros' words at first face. It is probably more said in mockery, along the line of, "hear this girl...oooh shocking, stealing a dead man's helm!" when we are told that near every man hanging is stripped of armor anyway. And Thoros never knew? Get outa here. Brienne just does not get innuendo. So when you read it in her POV it doesn't come off as sarcasm. Arya is far more aware of sarcasm. 

[David Selig]

16 minutes ago, Ser Scott Malkinson said:

Well... at least they used to get a trial...

A joke of a trial. The Hound admitted he killed a child but he was let go because he won a fight (which wouldn't an option for anyone else since Berik is pretty elite fighter). Before that he was blamed for crimes he had nothing to do with.

And Brienne got more of a chance to defend herself with actual arguments than anyone we've seen when Berik was in charge. She just looked guilty as hell due to her bad luck and all the material evidence against her.

[sweetsunray]

29 minutes ago, Ser Scott Malkinson said:

Well... at least they used to get a trial...

But under Beric, at least their cause was noble: defend the smallfolk from the ravages of this war. Now their aim seems to be hanging Freys.

And you think they stopped defending smallfolk? Who do you think hung those raiders of Saltpans? The Bloody Mummers? Of course not. BwB went after the broken men and outlaws who did this, and put a salt rock in their mouth to let everyone know that those were the men who burned Saltpans.

Who was Lem chasing again when he left his post to oversee the safety of the orphanage from the bushes? Oh, that's right, Mummers. And did you notice what his designated job was? Protecting the orphanage.

We get to see Brienne as heroic for killing 4 mummers. But the BwB killed the rest of them. And that was a large company. They have an actual orphanage, a place where all the sparrows bring children. Don't recall Beric having an orphanage. They still shelter common folk at Hollow Hill. The smallfolk wouldn't be helping and covering up for the BwB if they had no self-interest in it. 

Brienne gets a trial too. The trials were always like the trials we've seen, except for the Hound's. Heck, at least Merret's trial and Brienne's is one where "evidence" is actually brought before LS, or a witness (LS) points out that these men were there. Merret was guilty, no matter how sorry he feels for himself. Petyr Pimple was guilty. Rhyman Frey was guilty. And Brienne sure as hell looked guilty: she calls for Jaime Lannister all the time, she carries a letter of King Tommen with her, and a VS sword with a golden lion and rubies for a pommel. Notice the crown that LS had in her hands? She got it from Rhyman Frey. That's where LS jsut returned from - Rhyman Frey's hanging. Where was Rhyman Frey last seen? The siege of Riverrun. Who relieved him? Jaime Lannister. So, LS learns that Jaime is besieging RR, where her uncle still flies the wolf banner, something he vowed not to do anymore. And LS heard a Bolton man pass Jaime's regards for Robb before killing him. And then this woman carrying nothing but Lannister memorabilia defends Jaime. Of course, we the reader know, it's not as it looks. But it certainly looks very guilty.

The trials under Beric were just "say name of a dead friend:comrade/kin/wife" + "lions/wolves did that" + "and you're lion/wolf".

[Ser Scott Malkinson]

3 hours ago, David Selig said:

A joke of a trial. The Hound admitted he killed a child but he was let go because he won a fight (which wouldn't an option for anyone else since Berik is pretty elite fighter). Before that he was blamed for crimes he had nothing to do with.

And Brienne got more of a chance to defend herself with actual arguments than anyone we've seen when Berik was in charge. She just looked guilty as hell due to her bad luck and all the material evidence against her.

I know it's a joke of a trial. That's why I jokingly said at least they used to get a trial.

But to be fair, any trial in Westeros seems to be a joke of a trial. Trial by Combat is by definition a joke of a trial, and when someone doesn't use Trial by Combat, they can apparently get judged by their accusers. Tyrion would have been judged by Sweetrobin in the Vale, and by Tywin in King's Landing. Cersei's and Margaery's trials will be judged by the High Sparrow and 6 other septons and septa's of his choosing, if I remember correctly.

But it has been a while since I read the books, so I might misremember this, like I apparently misremembered the actions of the Brotherhood.

[3legImp]

"That boy [Jaime] had wanted to be Ser Aurthur Dayne, but someplace along the way he had become the Smiling Knight instead."