Great Ordeal Feedback

[Yellow]

10 hours ago, rsbakker said:

Yellow: The King in Yellow scarred me as a boy, you should know.

You're coming pretty damn close to answering the question, yourself, you know! The intellectual tradition has been to assign discursive knowledge to men, and intuitive knowledge (the knowledge of angels) to women, and to insist this distinction is actually flattering to women, even as it was used to systematically exclude them from public discourse and debate. I tell Mimara in the present tense because I presume this ontological distinction obtains in my world, and that Mimara is in fact closer to the god, possessing unmediated--immediate--knowledge of good and evil.

The questions is what this makes out of all of Achamian's reasons.

Hmmmm, have to think about that. Strokey beard.

 

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Theres not much I can say vis a vis the history of the Nonmen or the Inchoroi until TUC has hit the shelves, I fear. I can say, that Ive always wanted to fill in the details of Cuno-Inchoroi wars...

Awesome

Also, well dodged on Nolendil's Aurax question!

I echo Triskan's thoughts on the Akka/Mimara thread. I love Akka - he's the most human of all your characters, and in TAE series he's also given the most interesting plot thread (in my opinion). My favourite parts in all six books are the dreams, and the ones in WLW and TGO are by far the most fascinating, Such a prizsse...

On that note, can you expand on the impact (if any) that Kellhus' hypnosis had in TTT on Akka's dreams? I'd love to have heard that conversation between Kellhus and Seswatha! Not long after the hypnosis, Akka dreams of Anaxophus using the Heron Spear on the No-God, and missing. Do the rest of Akka's non-canonical dreams come from Kellhus in some way?

 

[PapushiSun]

Hi Mr Bakker. Huge fan of the series here. TGO left me confused and unsure especially since it felt more like a set-up than a full story. Nonetheless, I liked it a lot and I've been rereading the series from the beginning. Anyway here are some question about some of the confusing bits:

1. Is Meppa dead? Do the Fanim or Fanimry have any more role to play in the series?

2. Is Esme dead? 

3. How did the WLW fail?

4. In the Ishterebinth chapters, it's revealed that Men in Eanna received a tutelage of the vile, of deceit and hatred. Does that mean the Inchoroi were the ones who sent Men on the genocidal crusade against the Nonmen?

5. How did Kellhus know the effects of the nuclear weapon?

6. What is the Koringhus' son's name?

[unJon]

@PapushiSun some of hose questions were asked and answered in this thread already. 

[jurble]

Man, I don't visit for a few days and this happens.

I enjoyed the book, the Ishterebinth portions were my favorite as it was most everyone else's.

A few questions:

Why didn't Kellhus replicate or duplicate the Non-man flying chariot for the Ordeal?  Wouldn't they (or I suppose something resembling a miniature version of the Raft he uses to assault Dagliash) offer protection and mobility to his sorcerers?

And in regards to Kellhus and the nuke - all souls within the universe end up in the Outside, yes? To what degree is memory preserved?  Could Kellhus have interrogated nuclear scientists in the Outside?

What exactly did the Eannans think was going on during the first Apocalypse?  The Jekkhi invade Earwa after the Apocalypse, so Eanna is/was definitely inhabited.  Was there enough communication over the Kayarsus for them to grasp the situation?

How is that the Inverse Fire actually interfaces with the Outside without the usage of magic, given the Inchoroi's ignorance of magic prior to arriving on Earwa?  How did the Inchoroi stumble onto it?  And what sort of screen is it being displayed on - does it have greater color fidelity than modern LED monitors?

The mechanics of Wutteat's undeath was that he (it?) was so damned that he had become a living topos, right?  If so, why does Shaeonanra require such an elaborate design to keep his soul from the Outside?  Why couldn't he become undead like Wutteat?

And finally. are the Nonmen Morlocks?

[Rhom]

In TGO, it is noted that the Nail of Heaven appears in the sky years before Arkfall.  Is there a reason for this?

Some have theorized that Aurax and Aurang were just average crewmen on the ship (space janitors maybe) and therefore had no real working knowledge of how the bios or the tekne really worked.  Would you say that is a fair assessment of their position prior to the arrival on Earwa?

[Callan S.]

19 hours ago, rsbakker said:

You know, I can't read the first books, especially WP and TTT, without cringing at how *loose* the prose feels! If I could afford to take the time, I think I would rewrite both of them. (I would rewrite TDTCB as well, but for different reasons).

I felt the semantic density kind of lowered after TDTCB, but frankly it felt like a sun about to collapse into a black hole with TDTCB and a break from that density was a relief. And you're not just writing for the academics - for the bulk of us WP and TTT is dense enough. I've lent books to a guy and he seemed to rebound off it (stating that he had the Bible, Kora and Illiad to get through first). Density could be loosing you general readership, so celebrate the looseness a lil', man!

[rsbakker]

10 hours ago, Rhllor's void lobster said:

Ok, in all seriousness...

first of all, thanks for coming here and doing this. Actually pretty cool, and I appreciate it. I've had a shit load of questions since starting the series, and since finishing TGO, but of course they all fly out of the head the second I try to recall them

one thing that has kind of bugged me since reading the preview chapters prior to TGOs release: in the first time we see the Outside with Kellhus (p 44), there is this

(Bolding mine)

Now, the not-stupid part of me understands this could simply be a stylistic choice to help jar our frame of reference from, uh, what just came before. But the stupid part of me (the part that seems to actually be in charge here) can't get over these three antecedents. I assume the he is Kellhus, but who the fuck are me and you? Is it actually you and I/us? Any clarity you can offer to what passes for my soul?

Am I making something out of nothing?

No. This is one (of many) intentional 'fourth wall' moments, one meant to flatten the distinction between the time of the telling and the time told. I don't care much for the technique in post modern contexts, but I like the sense of aporia it conjures in various 'frame bending' instances, like these, because it actually amounts to a bending of the reader's frame of narrative reference.

If it has the effect of breaking the spell altogether, that's not so good, tho.

[rsbakker]

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But if we break the book up into four sections as I've done here I thought two were outstanding, one solid, and one disappointing.  That's pretty nice overall, and I'm still very excited for TUC. 

Thanks, Triskan. This is actually doing quite a bit to transform my understanding of the series. Though I have no doubt that my 'Devilschirps' do nothing but damage my sales, one of the reasons I find it so valuable is that it reminds me daily of how disconnected my predictions of which definitions people will like and which they will pass over in silence are so reliably wrong. The picture I had drawn up in my mind is quite different from the one evolving here.

This has also made me very curious as to what people will make of these story lines after they've read TUC...

I just keep getting curiouser and curiouser!

[rsbakker]

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On that note, can you expand on the impact (if any) that Kellhus' hypnosis had in TTT on Akka's dreams? I'd love to have heard that conversation between Kellhus and Seswatha! Not long after the hypnosis, Akka dreams of Anaxophus using the Heron Spear on the No-God, and missing. Do the rest of Akka's non-canonical dreams come from Kellhus in some way?

Yes. These are good questions...

[Callan S.]

15 hours ago, Rhom said:

Expanding on this edit a bit... Why did the No God ever take the field at all?  Why not just hunker down and let the cessation of the cycle of souls naturally reduce the population to the required amount?

I thought the scranc and bashrag forces had been whittled down by gorilla tactics, making it possible that the facilities that run the no god could be breached, over run and destroyed.

[rsbakker]

Papishun: Thank you for the kind words! Some of these Q's I've already tackled, but the others, I fear you will have to wait and see what happens! How does the old acronym George uses go? WAFO?

I can say, regarding (4), that this is what some Nonmen believed. The Men of Eanna certainly didn't make all the Chorae they had in their possession.

[Madness]

Trying to think of a lob, duder. Weekend (mornings especially) get pretty slow around here. Thanks again for being here :).

Ah, I got one. Going back to the Lovecraft question from years ago.

How have you gone about engendering awe (all those sweet freebasing thaumazein moments) in your writing and how conscious were the "layers of revelation" you caked into your books?

[rsbakker]

Damned with the Wind: Loverly handle. Put a 'whirl' in their and it would be perfect!

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"Why didn't Kellhus replicate or duplicate the Non-man flying chariot for the Ordeal?  Wouldn't they (or I suppose something resembling a miniature version of the Raft he uses to assault Dagliash) offer protection and mobility to his sorcerers?"

Kellhus hasn't plumbed the secrets of Mihtrulic.

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"The mechanics of Wutteat's undeath was that he (it?) was so damned that he had become a living topos, right?  If so, why does Shaeonanra require such an elaborate design to keep his soul from the Outside?  Why couldn't he become undead like Wutteat?"

Because he has no interest in having half his soul trapped in hell (as is the case for all proxies, even those as elaborate as the Amiolas).

I fear I need to call WAFO on your other questions, except the Morlocks, in which case, EAMD.

[rsbakker]

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In TGO, it is noted that the Nail of Heaven appears in the sky years before Arkfall.  Is there a reason for this?

Perhaps.

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Some have theorized that Aurax and Aurang were just average crewmen on the ship (space janitors maybe) and therefore had no real working knowledge of how the bios or the tekne really worked.  Would you say that is a fair assessment of their position prior to the arrival on Earwa?

No. The precise opposite in fact. But this is a big WAFO.

[rsbakker]

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I felt the semantic density kind of lowered after TDTCB, but frankly it felt like a sun about to collapse into a black hole with TDTCB and a break from that density was a relief. And you're not just writing for the academics - for the bulk of us WP and TTT is dense enough. I've lent books to a guy and he seemed to rebound off it (stating that he had the Bible, Kora and Illiad to get through first). Density could be loosing you general readership, so celebrate the looseness a lil', man!

And this is a big part of why I would like to rewrite TDTCB: I love the book artistically, but it's difficulty has meant that commercially speaking, the whole series has feet of clay.

This is why I really need to get my ass into gear and write an accessible prequel, something to level the learning curve posed by TDTCB. I'm really beginning to think Uster Scraul would be the perfect vehicle for that.

[Madness]

1 minute ago, rsbakker said:

This is why I really need to get my ass into gear and write an accessible prequel, something to level the learning curve posed by TDTCB. I'm really beginning to think Uster Scraul would be the perfect vehicle for that.

Three Seas politic/war awesomeness, featuring Conphas v. Saubon when Istriya for reals ruled the Nansur ;).

[rsbakker]

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"How have you gone about engendering awe (all those sweet freebasing thaumazein moments) in your writing and how conscious were the "layers of revelation" you caked into your books? "

Your advice is a big reason why I'm here, Mike.

Making awe work is all about context, framing, buildup, what have you. So if you think of Sorweel's journey into the underworld, the Holy Deep, it was important, I think, to draw out the pilgrimage, to heap the Weeping Mountain high above, to impart a sense of just how deep he had to go.

And of course, believability. You have to believe to get that tickle of awe.

[End of Disc One]

I didn't think TDTCB was any harder to get into than Gardens of the Moon. Both series seem to have similar levels of critical acclaim and reader divisiveness. I'm not sure why Malazan has turned out to be more successful...maybe just more books taking up more shelf space to attract more eyes.  Or just different publishers.  

[Madness]

Well, you can't find Bakker on shelves (!!) anywhere.

[Rhom]

I appreciate the level of candor and engagement in this thread.  I've received more answers in the last two days than in 50 general discussion threads worth of debate.

Along those lines, has there been any discussion of a book signing tour?  I'm sure they are a pain, but personally I have enjoyed the events at Joe Beth Booksellers in Lexington, KY that I have attended.  (Even met a couple of the dezizens of Westeros.org while there.)