Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Summer Islander Prince

Best Kings/Queens in Westerosi History?

Recommended Posts

42 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I am not saying that she was bad or evil but she has done nothing for her to be called Good. How taking the land of the Starks is a good thing? How making laws for everyone except her family is good? Like I said she was charitable when it was easy to be charitable, that doesn't make her good. A good person makes hard choices she hadn't made hard choices so she wasn't an exceptionally good person she was just average.

 

The land taken from the Starks benefited the Night's Watch, who I do believe were beginning to decline during this time. Meanwhile we don't have any evidence that the Dragonseeds were conceived specifically through the First Night. Even if they were it's not her fault her family members transgressed that law. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I fail to understand how Queen Alysanne is being held responsible for these things. While she was a close adviser to her husband, at the end of the day it was King Jaehaerys who made the final decisions. For all we know she could have wanted a complete abolition of the First Night but Jaehaerys chose to look the other way when it came to the Targaryens. 

He was the one responsible for the laws and dictates passed by the crown. 

Regarding her charity, her generosity should be undermined by the fact that she was wealthy and able. Many who are wealthy are not generous at all. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, Summer Islander Prince said:

The land taken from the Starks benefited the Night's Watch, who I do believe were beginning to decline during this time.

Not true. For thousands years the Starks were loyal friends, allies and helper, there is no true that taking away Starks’ land actually helped the NW.

34 minutes ago, Summer Islander Prince said:

Meanwhile we don't have any evidence that the Dragonseeds were conceived specifically through the First Night. Even if they were it's not her fault her family members transgressed that law. 

We have no clue for the opposite either but we have been told that "Like their dragons, the Targaryens answered to neither gods nor men.”

Again, she wasn't evil or bad but she wasn't exceptionally good either, she was average.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Not true. For thousands years the Starks were loyal friends, allies and helper, there is no true that taking away Starks’ land actually helped the NW.

We have no clue for the opposite either but we have been told that "Like their dragons, the Targaryens answered to neither gods nor men.”

Again, she wasn't evil or bad but she wasn't exceptionally good either, she was average.

 

True, true, though I disagree about the NW. We're starting to get off-topic again so I concede the victory to you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Summer Islander Prince said:

True, true, though I disagree about the NW. We're starting to get off-topic again so I concede the victory to you.

Victory implies that there is a competition. We just discussing and each one presents his opinion.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Summer Islander Prince said:

 

The land taken from the Starks benefited the Night's Watch, who I do believe were beginning to decline during this time. Meanwhile we don't have any evidence that the Dragonseeds were conceived specifically through the First Night. Even if they were it's not her fault her family members transgressed that law. 

No, the land taken from the Starks was a huge disservice to anyone in the north, which was part of the plan (when you add up all the clues including the new alliance she and Jae just made with the High Septon/Faith o'7), she moved the NW away from the gate under the wall, sealing off the path of magic that was part of the culture in the north, and she paid off her treachery in disguise as a generous donation to "help" because people are distracted by shiny things. Painting the top of Queenscrowne gold was like her marking her territory and showing dominance over the area... she peed on people so they wouldn't forget who was the "real" ruler. And if that wasn't enough, to drive in the point of trying to kill the northern culture and kill off magic and northern house strength, she and Jae showed up with not just their two dragons, but six. Why six now when even back in Aegon the Conq's day, and shortly thereafter, they showed up on their own dragon and got the job done? All of this made the Starks/north turn away from her and support the other Targ's in the council. The Starks even tried to undo what GQA did by petioning to the Citadel, which duh!, wouldn't change the decision because of shiny things.

The fact that she is literally called "good" should tell you (in general "you")  to look deeper because George is never that obvious.

I do think she did a good thing like abolishing first right... but there is more backstory to that as well, and something any king/queen could have done. In the end, I do think she was a more dark grey character rather than a light grey/white character because of what she and Jae did that no one else could do.

Ygritte did not like her either ;), and Ygritte is one character in the story that actually gives us a better perspective the world building.

A lot of good bits and pieces of this backstory are told in the Rogue Prince and the PatQ. It's worth a read/listen if you have not had the chance to do so yet. I finally gave it another listen last week because I had not been able to do so for a long while. I am hoping that the next D&E story will give us a little more backstory on this subject as well ^_^

Remember, when you read the World book, there is one line of truth per every two lines of Lannister loyal falsehood.

The World of Ice and Fire - The North: The Lords of Winterfell

We have earlier discussed House Stark's role in the Dance of the Dragons. Let it be added that Lord Cregan Stark reaped many rewards for his loyal support of King Aegon III...even if it was not a royal princess marrying into his family, as had been agreed in the Pact of Ice and Fire made when the doomed prince Jacaerys Velaryon had flown to Winterfell upon his dragon.
Though in these days it is said that Lord Ellard Stark was glad to aid the Night's Watch with the Gift, and took little convincing, the truth is otherwise. Letters from Lord Stark's brother to the Citadel, asking the maesters to provide precedents against the forced donation of property, made it plain that the Starks were not eager to do as King Jaehaerys bid. It may be that the Starks feared that, under the control of the Castle Black, the New Gift would inevitably decline—for the Night's Watch would always look northward and never give much thought to their new tenants to the south. And as it happens, that soon came to pass, and the New Gift is now said to be largely unpopulated thanks to the decline of the Watch and the rising toll taken by raiders from beyond the Wall.

The Rogue Prince

On the third day of third moon of 129 AC, Princess Helaena brought her three children to visit with the king in his chambers. The twins Jaehaerys and Jaehaera were six years old, their brother Maelor only two. His Grace gave the babe a pearl ring off his finger to play with, and told the twins the story of how their great-great-grandsire and namesake Jaehaerys the Old King had flown his dragon north to the Wall to defeat a vast host of wildlings, giants, and wargs. The children listened attentively. Afterward the king sent them away, pleading weariness. Then Viserys of House Targaryen, the First of His Name, King of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm, closed his eyes and went to sleep.
 
As George has talked about, both in the books and on his blog, the wildlings are not the "bad guys" we and the Southroners have been set up to think they are as mentioned here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

TPATQ proves you wrong. There it was clearly stated that the custom were present at DS, it never said that it stopped after Jaehaerys' laws and seeing the age of the dragonseeds points to the fact that the law hadn't stopped the Targs, which isn't the first time that the Targs are above the laws.

The Dragonseeds during the Dance of the Dragons weren't the result of Targaryens practicing the First Night, they were just plain old bastards. Hell, the Hulls didn't even claim they were of Targaryen descent; they were Velaryon bastards.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

She was charitable yes but that doesn’t make her good, look at the Tyrells. They had given money and food to the people and the people loved them but they were those who caused the famine in the first place. For example; she made or told Jaehaerys to take a land that belonged to the Starks and gave it to the Night's Watch when the Starks had already helped the NW for thousands of year. She made First night illegal, which was a great decision, but only for the non Targaryens.  She basically had been charitable when it was easy for her to be. It’s easy for someone to give money when he has money. What is difficult and is really good is to do the hard thing, like forcing your family and your husband to follow the laws of the land, First Night, incest, laws of succession and so on.

Watch your language. I am not obligated to do anything at all. You said that because she was called Good she was good. I proved you that nicknames or titles don't always reflect the truth.

I know tone doesn't translate well to written text, but I find it hard to believe anyone is taking my previous post this literally.

Your beef with Alyssane seems to be that she hasn't done more good, which is ridiculous. Is Mother Teresa not good because she didn't cure cancer?

Unless you have textual evidence otherwise, First Night applied to Targs as much as the lords. It isn't her fault if there are Targs who still like to keep up the practice (which is baseless speculation on your part btw), anymore than it is Gloria Steinem's fault that genital mutilation still exists. And making a huge change in law and culture like that wouldn't have been "easy" at all. It meant risking losing favour with her vessels, which can be dangerous for her in a feudal society.

I don't see why gifting land to the NW takes away from her "goodness". It was an act of kindness towards the NW. Sucks for the Starks, I guess - and I know that's, like, the ultimate evil for some people on this forum - but that doesn't make her not a good person. They got over it eventually, anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, TheSovereignGrave said:

The Dragonseeds during the Dance of the Dragons weren't the result of Targaryens practicing the First Night, they were just plain old bastards. Hell, the Hulls didn't even claim they were of Targaryen descent; they were Velaryon bastards.

How do you know that?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Your beef with Alyssane seems to be that she hasn't done more good, which is ridiculous. Is Mother Teresa not good because she didn't cure cancer?

Are you seriously using Mother Teresa as an argue? 

13 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Unless you have textual evidence otherwise, First Night applied to Targs as much as the lords. It isn't her fault if there are Targs who still like to keep up the practice (which is baseless speculation on your part btw), anymore than it is Gloria Steinem's fault that genital mutilation still exists. And making a huge change in law and culture like that wouldn't have been "easy" at all. It meant risking losing favour with her vessels, which can be dangerous for her in a feudal society.

Like their dragons, the Targaryens answered to neither gods nor men. It's common knowledge that the Targs never followed the laws of men and Gods.

13 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

I don't see why gifting land to the NW takes away from her "goodness". It was an act of kindness towards the NW. Sucks for the Starks, I guess - and I know that's, like, the ultimate evil for some people on this forum - but that doesn't make her not a good person. They got over it eventually, anyway.

Utter :bs:. The Starks for thousands years have been the NW biggest and most powerful ally and helper so much so they have actually sent their men to help NW against the Kings Beyond the Wall. The fact that Jaehaerys and Alysanne stole  the Starks' land was harmful for both the Starks and the NW.

The Fattest Leech's post is a great source for thinking for those who are open minded.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Summer Islander Prince said:

Guys, we're getting off-topic here.We're here discuss who are the greatest Kings and Queens Westeros has seen, not the justifications of the Good Queens actions, whether or not the Targs were above the law, etc.

In order to do that someone must examine his or hers actions. So the discussion about Alysanne seems to be on topic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Summer Islander Prince said:

It's purely opinion.

Agreed. You asked for opinions in the OP, but then others brought in written facts to back up those opinions. Truly, it could, and still might, happen in regards to any other ruler someone mentions as the best.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Agreed. You asked for opinions in the OP, but then others brought in written facts to back up those opinions. Truly, it could, and still might, happen in regards to any other ruler someone mentions as the best.

 

I really see more facts to try and disprove someone else's opinion rather than backing up one's own opinion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3 oktober 2016 at 5:19 PM, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Lol "good rulers"! :lmao: Thank you for that. I only guess that you would had supported Hitler's third reich.

Yes, yes i would. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Summer Islander Prince said:

I really see more facts to try and disprove someone else's opinion rather than backing up one's own opinion.

That is the problem. You seem to believe that someone's opinion has to backed up. I stated my opinion as a fact without caring who would agree with me and who will not because I don't care about what people think about my opinions. I don't care to make anyone see things, my opinion not the theories, the way I see it, I don't care if someone will agree with me or not, I simply don't care. You asked about opinions I gave you my opinions and people asked for me to explain why I have these opinions when I simply don't care if they either understand what I mean or if they will agree or disagree.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Like their dragons, the Targaryens answered to neither gods nor men. It's common knowledge that the Targs never followed the laws of men and Gods.

"Like their dragons, the Targaryens answered to neither gods nor men" was said in the context of incestuous marriages, and it doesn't mean they literally don't follow any laws at all. Even if they wanted to, it would be impossible, because their position of power is dependent on the support of their vassals.

Not that the quote was proof that Queen A didn't abolish First Night for everyone, anyway.

12 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Utter :bs:. The Starks for thousands years have been the NW biggest and most powerful ally and helper so much so they have actually sent their men to help NW against the Kings Beyond the Wall. The fact that Jaehaerys and Alysanne stole  the Starks' land was harmful for both the Starks and the NW.

The Fattest Leech's post is a great source for thinking for those who are open minded.

Whether or not giving the land to the NW proved actually beneficial to them is irrelevant. We're debating whether Queen A was a good person or not, her political competence has nothing to do with that. The gift was an act of kindness - hence, she was a good person. We must take that at face value because there is nothing in the text to suggest otherwise.

And yes, I've seen TFL's speculation that she had ulterior motives, but their argument is full of projected motives and inaccuracies (the smallfolk painted the Queenscrown, not her). More than that, the whole thing is just makes no sense - Queen A deliberately provoked the North because...?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×