Marvel Netflix - Sweet Christmas!

[The BlackBear]

He popped up in the 70's as a white character who went over to foreign lands and learned they're techniques and became better than any of them. It's the Mighty Whitey trope. Many felt, and I was one of them, that Iron Fist was a great opportunity to cast a traditionally white role as an east asian actor. It doesn't really change his history, he can still be American, and him being white doesn't massively matter to his stories, in, for instance, the same way that Luke Cage being black does.

I more or less shrugged it off as a shame, and a missed opportunity, but certain members of the online community have clearly taken it more personally.

[The Anti-Targ]

Yeah, I am constitutionally inclined to enjoy the show more than the average reviewer, I think.

Even though Iron Fist is on a measley 14% on Rotten tomatoes the average score out of 10 is 5.08. So while reviewers didn't exactly like Iron Fist, they generally didn't hate it either. If the collective of reviewers gives Iron Fist a 5/10, chances are my personal score for the series will be a 6, or maybe higher. If that's the case then I am highly likely to watch the whole thing and say it was worth the time.

But one always has to consider the possibility that one will like the series less than reviewers. If I consider the first episodes to be sub-par and worth only 4/10 or less then I will probably max out at 5 episodes. 

59 minutes ago, The BlackBear said:

He popped up in the 70's as a white character who went over to foreign lands and learned they're techniques and became better than any of them. It's the Mighty Whitey trope. Many felt, and I was one of them, that Iron Fist was a great opportunity to cast a traditionally white role as an east asian actor. It doesn't really change his history, he can still be American, and him being white doesn't massively matter to his stories, in, for instance, the same way that Luke Cage being black does.

I more or less shrugged it off as a shame, and a missed opportunity, but certain members of the online community have clearly taken it more personally.

Yeah, exactly. I would have praised Netflix for changing things up and making him Chinese American. But I can't even muster enough energy to raise an eyebrow at the fact they decided to stick with him being white. Hell it's enough that Marvel has an Afro-American man and a white woman getting together (and doing it doggy style at least once on the TV show), that one can hardly call Netflix out for whitewashing. It's definitely path of least resistance to keep Danny white. I think for all the complaints of not changing him into Chinese-American, if they had actually done that I think the nerd rage and demands for boycotts would have been much louder. They may have looked at the outcry over the Human Torch in the last abomination F4 movie and thought, "we don't need that sort of grief".

I do hope Jessica and Luke

Spoiler

Actually get married and have a child as in the comics, if the Netflix venture lasts long enough for the relationship to develop and end up there. When was the last time we ever saw a superhero wedding on TV, let alone a child of a superhero pairing.

Spoilers because one never knows how much people know about the comic-verse of these characters and what might be coming down the line.

[The BlackBear]

40 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Spoilers because one never knows how much people know about the comic-verse of these characters and what might be coming down the line.

Just a heads up, you put that in a quote not in spoiler tags.

 

As for Nerd Rage... I think it's mostly overblown. Finn being a black stormtrooper didn't hurt SW:tFA, being heavily focused on feminism didn't hurt Mad Max:FR, Johnny Storm being black didn't hurt Fan4stick (it being a clusterfuck was the issue.) Part of me dare says it's a good thing, sayings about all publicity spring to mind. Why not get these bell ends to shriek about how awfully progressive your product is? Sounds like good marketing to me.

[Bastard of Boston]

In regard to Danny being cast as white, I think -- though all representation is important -- it's particularly important in the Asian community. I read a piece on Steven Yeun awhile back, who played Glenn on The Walking Dead. The Walking Dead is one of the most popular shows ever, and after his departure, it was revealed that he was auditioning for bit parts these days. In a world where representation in Hollywood is bad, it's especially shitty for Asians. Iron Fist was a golden opportunity for Marvel, and they dropped the ball.

[The Anti-Targ]

1 minute ago, The BlackBear said:

Just a heads up, you put that in a quote not in spoiler tags.

 

As for Nerd Rage... I think it's mostly overblown. Finn being a black stormtrooper didn't hurt SW:tFA, being heavily focused on feminism didn't hurt Mad Max:FR, Johnny Storm being black didn't hurt Fan4stick (it being a clusterfuck was the issue.) Part of me dare says it's a good thing, sayings about all publicity spring to mind. Why not get these bell ends to shriek about how awfully progressive your product is? Sounds like good marketing to me.

I am an idiot.

Aside from Johnny Storm, those other examples are characters originally written for the movies in which they appear, and hence there is no race or gender bending involved. And whatever the reasons for F4's epic fail critically and financially, I have no problem believing that the movie lost a few hundred $K at the box office due to the nerd ragers. It does not represent the difference between financial success and failure. But it's still lost revenue. Conversely I don't think a counterbalancing number of people deliberately went to see the move because Johnny Storm was black.

I think it's possible more people went to see Ghost Busters because it was a female team than stayed away because it was a female team. And that got a lot more shit for having a female team than what F4 got for Johnny being black. Still it didn't help a not very good movie turn a profit.

No bad publicity is still working for Netflix because they are coping flak for not making a white character an Asian character.

[The Anti-Targ]

21 minutes ago, Bastard of Boston said:

In regard to Danny being cast as white, I think -- though all representation is important -- it's particularly important in the Asian community. I read a piece on Steven Yeun awhile back, who played Glenn on The Walking Dead. The Walking Dead is one of the most popular shows ever, and after his departure, it was revealed that he was auditioning for bit parts these days. In a world where representation in Hollywood is bad, it's especially shitty for Asians. Iron Fist was a golden opportunity for Marvel, and they dropped the ball.

Well, that's because there needs to be adaptation of stories that have significant Asian characters and writing original screenplays involving significant Asian characters. One could argue that Marvel Comics should kill off Danny Rand and give us a new, Chinese, Iron fist. And that's really where the representation needs to start.

[Winterfell is Burning]

If Marvel wants an Asian superhero that fits the Defenders well, they can just use Shang-Chi, no need to make Danny Asian.

[Bastard of Boston]

14 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Well, that's because there needs to be adaptation of stories that have significant Asian characters and writing original screenplays involving significant Asian characters. One could argue that Marvel Comics should kill off Danny Rand and give us a new, Chinese, Iron fist. And that's really where the representation needs to start.

But, why does Danny Rand need to be killed off in order to make Netflix Danny Asian? Iron Fist in the MCU is uncharted territory. We're not "turning Danny Asian" in a universe where Danny doesn't exist. This Danny could have been Asian. It's easy to say that Hollywood should just start writing original Asian characters, but that's not so easy to sell. Originality is not what's being produced -- adaptations of decades-old characters are. These characters were created in a different era. If Iron Fist was created in the 2010s, I doubt he would be white.

Nick Fury was a white dude until someone made him Sam Jackson in Ultimates. Canon is canon until someone comes along and changes it.

[The Anti-Targ]

1 hour ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

If Marvel wants an Asian superhero that fits the Defenders well, they can just use Shang-Chi, no need to make Danny Asian.

If Iron Fist flops hard, they might just do something like that. Though I'm guessing they are already shooting Defenders.

 

1 hour ago, Bastard of Boston said:

In regard to Danny being cast as white, I think -- though all representation is important -- it's particularly important in the Asian community. I read a piece on Steven Yeun awhile back, who played Glenn on The Walking Dead. The Walking Dead is one of the most popular shows ever, and after his departure, it was revealed that he was auditioning for bit parts these days. In a world where representation in Hollywood is bad, it's especially shitty for Asians. Iron Fist was a golden opportunity for Marvel, and they dropped the ball.

I can certainly believe that if Steven Yeun was actually Steve Young he'd have picked up something that was at least a regular supporting gig on a TV show.

[RedEyedGhost]

3 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Even though Iron Fist is on a measley 14% on Rotten tomatoes the average score out of 10 is 5.08.

Holy shit, I just looked up Luke Cage and it's at a 96%...  I cannot imagine Iron Fist being worse than that, but maybe.  At least for as terrible as it was, Luke Cage did have some bright spots.  The last trailer looked really good for Iron Fist, I hate it so much when the trailer editor is better at their job than the series/movie director.  

What's even more worrisome is that Scott Buck is going to be working on Inhumans as well.  I still don't know how that guy has ever gotten another job after the last few seasons of Dexter.

[mormont]

As terrible as Luke Cage was? That would be 'not at all terrible'. It had some flaws but that didn't make it 'terrible'. DD season 2 was significantly inferior to Luke Cage, and even that doesn't get into the territory of 'terrible'.

As for casting Danny as Asian, here's the thing. Luke Cage and Jessica Jones, as I've said before, work best of all the Marvel Netflix series because the showrunners know exactly what story they want to tell and what they want to use it to talk about. Casting Danny as American-Asian could have given the same opportunity to the showrunners here. They could have made the story about the conflict second-generation immigrants often feel between their country of birth and their country of ancestry. An Asian-American second-generation kid who knows ancient Eastern martial arts but is also heir to a Western corporate dynasty? Who feels he doesn't truly fit into either world, and has to try to find a way to resolve the conflicts in the two sides of his identity? That's gold. A rich white kid who was lost abroad and learned martial arts doesn't have the same resonance.

Now, you could still tell a great story with Danny being white. You'd need a different theme, but you could do it. It just sounds very much as if they haven't.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

1 hour ago, mormont said:

As terrible as Luke Cage was? That would be 'not at all terrible'. It had some flaws but that didn't make it 'terrible'. DD season 2 was significantly inferior to Luke Cage, and even that doesn't get into the territory of 'terrible'.

As for casting Danny as Asian, here's the thing. Luke Cage and Jessica Jones, as I've said before, work best of all the Marvel Netflix series because the showrunners know exactly what story they want to tell and what they want to use it to talk about. Casting Danny as American-Asian could have given the same opportunity to the showrunners here. They could have made the story about the conflict second-generation immigrants often feel between their country of birth and their country of ancestry. An Asian-American second-generation kid who knows ancient Eastern martial arts but is also heir to a Western corporate dynasty? Who feels he doesn't truly fit into either world, and has to try to find a way to resolve the conflicts in the two sides of his identity? That's gold. A rich white kid who was lost abroad and learned martial arts doesn't have the same resonance.

Now, you could still tell a great story with Danny being white. You'd need a different theme, but you could do it. It just sounds very much as if they haven't.

At least I managed to finish the second season of DD. When it was good it was very good, and when it was bad it was boresome. But Luke Cage never really managed to hit the heights of DD, it sort of achieved a dreary level, which i heard got worse towards the end. I couldn't bring myself to finish it, I might try soon, but it never really hooked me in the same way. For me the first half of DD S2 is still the best Marvel Netflix show out there. JJ is highly overrated and just as dull except for one or two episodes when Doctor Who became front and centre. 

As for IF's white washing, well I don't know anything about the property, it all seems a little silly to me. But so far most of the reviews I've read have focused on the white washing first and the story second. I'm hoping this reaction is clouding their judgement but I'm not overly optimistic.

[mormont]

I dunno what reviews you've been reading. The ones I've read mention the race issue, but mostly as an aside to how they don't think Finn Jones is well cast anyway.

But the thing is, if it were a case of the race issue clouding some people's judgement there would be mixed reviews - at least some reviews would be good. As it is, the reviews appear to vary from 'meh' to 'oh dear'.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I'll watch the whole thing anyway. Marvel and Netflix have earned that amount of credit from me.

[Lockjaw of House Boltagon]

19 hours ago, RedEyedGhost said:

What's even more worrisome is that Scott Buck is going to be working on Inhumans as well.  I still don't know how that guy has ever gotten another job after the last few seasons of Dexter.

Tell me about it, the Inhumans are screwed. 

As for Iron Fist, I side eye everyone going, "But he's always been white in the comics!" Sure, but literally everything else about Iron Fist is Asian. Everything. Back story, supporting characters, mythology, skill set, inspirations, world-building, everything. The "7 Heavenly Cities" arc - arguably the best Iron Fist story of all time - is an anime/Zhang Yimou film brought to life, for crying out loud.

Iron Fist is an unequivocally Asian character that had the misfortune of being created white. Marvel could've righted that wrong by casting an Asian actor but they didn't. Ok, fine. At least they should've cast a more compelling white actor, because if the reviews are to be believed, Finn Jones is unfortunately bland in the role. 

[RedEyedGhost]

14 hours ago, mormont said:

As terrible as Luke Cage was? That would be 'not at all terrible'. It had some flaws but that didn't make it 'terrible'. 

If it wasn't terrible then I wouldn't know a dozen⁺ people that stopped it before finishing.  

[mormont]

3 minutes ago, RedEyedGhost said:

If it wasn't terrible then I wouldn't know a dozen⁺ people that stopped it before finishing.  

If that's all it takes to qualify as terrible, then literally nothing on TV is any good.

[RedEyedGhost]

19 minutes ago, mormont said:

If that's all it takes to qualify as terrible, then literally nothing on TV is any good.

Maybe.

[Martini Sigil]

While I agree that this would have been the perfect opportunity for Marvel to change the cannon and cast an Asian/Eurasian actor... I think most of us would care led if Finn Jones proves the critics wrong.... I doubt that will happen, but ultimately casting Jones will most likely be the problem....regardless of his ethnicity...

I will like this show anyway, because Marvel is built into my synaptic predilections... but probably not as much as the others...

[SpaceChampion]

Iron Fist may suck, but Jessica Henwick is pretty cool.  Half-hour interview with her:

 

[red snow]

Like a few others have said, I'll be watching this and if it's crap because of Finn Jones it won't be because he's white but because he's Finn Jones. For it to really suck it would need to have more wrong with it than just the lead. I feel for the guy a little bit as it feels like he's been hung out to dry before the show even airs. I think he could have benefiited from some PR person guiding him through the social media minefield. He's said some things that he'd have been better offf avoiding but it does seem like everything is targeted at him and while as the lead he does need to carry the show it's worth bearing in mind that he isn't the showrunner, director, screenwriter and casting agent of the show too.

I think it was Mormont who said the show could have had a really interesting theme if Danny Rand was asian american. I tend to agree as it maintains the "fish out of water" aspect and would also be more subtle in a "not every person of an asian ethnicity is automatically chinese".

Luke Cage is currently my least favourite netflix show so it'd be worrying if there is a downhill trend showing in the franchise already. Luke Cage's problem for me was that it felt like two different shows and I much preferred the first half of it. But I couldn't fault the actors at all besides some of them not being in it long enough eg Faison and Ali (who I'm starting to think must be a real talent as I'm often left wishing he had larger roles in the things he appears in). Luke Cage is the only netflix show where I've listened to the soundtrack afterwards. So while I didn't like the story/pacing of the second half I still feel like it had the strongest tone/identity of the netflix shows.